DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

syklops · 24-06-2015 6:27pm

BoatMad wrote: »

Dart Underground is a far far cry from an city " underground". Its really just one line.

LUAS has been extremely successful and garners a lot of public approval. I can easily see why its a popular decision to extend it.

Well my reasoning for DU is once the first piece of underground track is laid, the benefits become obvious and there can/may be public will to extend it. Plus its construction causes somewhat less chaos than above ground methods of public transport. I'd be all for them extending the luas, but for the love of god, have them link to other means of transport and you know, itself. Its a bit over a mile from Bridesglen to Shankhill Dart Station. If they could only join the two it would make life much easier.

scouserstation · 24-06-2015 7:02pm

The proposed airport Luas line is a good alternative to MN, it uses a similar route, has complete segregation until it arrives at Constitution hill onto Dominick street, will see a journey time from the airport to city centre in approx 25 minutes and will save the taxpayer over 1 billion euro. I cant see why the idea is getting bashed.

People are thinking of this as "the airport luas" but its much more than that, serving important areas of Dublins northside and no doubt taking cars off badly congested roads.Hopefully the Dart airport spur goes ahead sooner rather than later which will ease pressure again and bring a faster more direct line into the city, which would be boosted significantly with the construction of Dart Underground.

end of the road · 24-06-2015 7:11pm

scouserstation wrote: »

The proposed airport Luas line is a good alternative to MN, it uses a similar route, has complete segregation until it arrives at Constitution hill onto Dominick street, will see a journey time from the airport to city centre in approx 25 minutes and will save the taxpayer over 1 billion euro. I cant see why the idea is getting bashed.

People are thinking of this as "the airport luas" but its much more than that, serving important areas of Dublins northside and no doubt taking cars off badly congested roads.Hopefully the Dart airport spur goes ahead sooner rather than later which will ease pressure again and bring a faster more direct line into the city, which would be boosted significantly with the construction of Dart Underground.

because it can't handle the capacity and future growth going forward. building a small project that is limited just to save 1 billion euro and just to build something is not a good reason. yes luas is great and i use it when i need to, but its not the answer to every transport issue for dublin and never will be. the money needs to be spent and a heavy rail link installed. this project needs to be done properly and needs to handle future capacity and growth right from the start even if its over capacity at the start, or even over capacity for a while.

Aard · 24-06-2015 8:07pm

Where's the evidence that it could not handle the projected demand?

bk · 24-06-2015 8:58pm

Aard wrote: »

Where's the evidence that it could not handle the projected demand?

Well the report says that the capacity of this is 5,500 per hour. Metro North was to be 20,000 per hour.

The green line has a capacity of 6,300 per hour and is already "at capacity". I wouldn't be surprised that 5,500 will be at capacity from day one.

The report does say that it can support a higher capacity if you go with the phase 2 option of tunnelling between Broombridge and Stephens Green. But no details on what that increased capacity would be or how much that option would cost.

I'm not saying it is a bad project, but the linked report above leaves out a lot of details and I think is being super generous with it's journey time figures.

Before making judgement on this option, I'd like to see a more detailed report from the NTA (rather then the RPA) and with the following details.

- Phase 1 building cost
- Phase 2 building cost
- Phase 1 + Phase 2 building cost.
- Capacity with phase 1 only
- Capacity with phase 2
- Journey times from both Stephens Green and O'Connell St to Dublin Airport and Swords for both phase 1 and phase 2
- Do the journey times to the airport include the shuttle to the airport times?
- Do the costs include the costs of the airport shuttle?

Only then can we really get a true picture of this project. I get the feeling that the RPA report is mentioning costs based on phase 1, but journey times on phase 2, thus giving a distorted vision.

I agree also with the points cgcsb made and I'd add to them that the plan should really include a park and ride on the M50, to encourage people not to drive into the city. But then this may not have the capacity to support that, thus making it much less useful then Metro North.

Also they claim a cost of €700 to €900 million, so lets be honest and say it will cost 1 billion. But I think that is just phase 1. How much more to do phase 2 so? Another 500 million to 1 billion?! Sure we are almost up to the cost of Metro North then, but with 1/4 the capacity!

Really the only advantage this project has is that it can be phased.

1) Do it without a tunnel first and only as far as the airport.
2) Then extend it to Swords
3) Finally, A very big MAYBE, add a tunnel.

Politically that makes it very attractive. You don't have to spend so much up front. You can string it out over the next 20 years. Each phase will cost less then 1 billion, good as figures more then 1 billion seem to spoke the general public. Also the general public loves Luas and seem to have no problem with money being spent on new lines, so it is an easy sell *

But we could well end up with an inferior solution to Metro North, that in the end winds up costing almost as much, but with 1/4 to 1/2 the capacity!

I'm really torn on this. On the one hand I think MN is a far superior solution. But I also fear that it might be too big for Ireland that likes slow incremental change.
And at least this is a partial solution, one that actually stands a chance of getting done.

* I actually think the MN project hurt itself in calling itself a Metro. I think it would have been an easier sell if it called itself Luas North or something like that. Stress that it is just a Luas line that happens to go partly underground and has longer Luas carriages. I think the general public would have been much more supportive then.

end of the road · 24-06-2015 9:35pm

bk wrote: »

Well the report says that the capacity of this is 5,500 per hour. Metro North was to be 20,000 per hour.

The green line has a capacity of 6,300 per hour and is already "at capacity". I wouldn't be surprised that 5,500 will be at capacity from day one.

The report does say that it can support a higher capacity if you go with the phase 2 option of tunnelling between Broombridge and Stephens Green. But no details on what that increased capacity would be or how much that option would cost.

I'm not saying it is a bad project, but the linked report above leaves out a lot of details and I think is being super generous with it's journey time figures.

Before making judgement on this option, I'd like to see a more detailed report from the NTA (rather then the RPA) and with the following details.

- Phase 1 building cost
- Phase 2 building cost
- Phase 1 + Phase 2 building cost.
- Capacity with phase 1 only
- Capacity with phase 2
- Journey times from both Stephens Green and O'Connell St to Dublin Airport and Swords for both phase 1 and phase 2
- Do the journey times to the airport include the shuttle to the airport times?
- Do the costs include the costs of the airport shuttle?

Only then can we really get a true picture of this project. I get the feeling that the RPA report is mentioning costs based on phase 1, but journey times on phase 2, thus giving a distorted vision.

I agree also with the points cgcsb made and I'd add to them that the plan should really include a park and ride on the M50, to encourage people not to drive into the city. But then this may not have the capacity to support that, thus making it much less useful then Metro North.

Also they claim a cost of €700 to €900 million, so lets be honest and say it will cost 1 billion. But I think that is just phase 1. How much more to do phase 2 so? Another 500 million to 1 billion?! Sure we are almost up to the cost of Metro North then, but with 1/4 the capacity!

Really the only advantage this project has is that it can be phased.

1) Do it without a tunnel first and only as far as the airport.
2) Then extend it to Swords
3) Finally, A very big MAYBE, add a tunnel.

Politically that makes it very attractive. You don't have to spend so much up front. You can string it out over the next 20 years. Each phase will cost less then 1 billion, good as figures more then 1 billion seem to spoke the general public. Also the general public loves Luas and seem to have no problem with money being spent on new lines, so it is an easy sell *

But we could well end up with an inferior solution to Metro North, that in the end winds up costing almost as much, but with 1/4 to 1/2 the capacity!

I'm really torn on this. On the one hand I think MN is a far superior solution. But I also fear that it might be too big for Ireland that likes slow incremental change.
And at least this is a partial solution, one that actually stands a chance of getting done.

* I actually think the MN project hurt itself in calling itself a Metro. I think it would have been an easier sell if it called itself Luas North or something like that. Stress that it is just a Luas line that happens to go partly underground and has longer Luas carriages. I think the general public would have been much more supportive then.

the thing is though, fast, big, not so easy to sell transport projects are what is needed for dublin. there might not be as much support publically for metro north as luas, but frankly we need our government to step in and build the metro anyway. those who don't support will thank them in the long run. as i said, i like luas. i use it when i travel to dublin. however the reality is its not the answer to all dublins public transport needs. it certainly will be for many, and it should be extended. but for the airport and along dublins most populated corridors, a metro or even better, a heavy rail link really has to be the ultimate goal in my opinion

sdanseo · 24-06-2015 10:20pm

D2 is a shambles of a plan for capacity reasons. We're talking about the second or third busiest arterial corridor in the city, currently all of which is served by road. Take a clicker counter out to the N1 and you'll count more than 5,500 people pass by in an hour. Add to that the fact that we're desperately crying out for park and ride facilities out of town and you're just asking for trouble.

D2 is a shambles because it runs on street for too long and will have a run time from the airport longer than is currently possible on route 747 through the tunnel. Eh, hello? RPA? have you quite literally taken leave of your senses?

And lastly, D2 is a shambles because of the people mover. 90 seconds from the terminal to the interchange is great. Waiting around for the people mover, waiting around for the Luas, lugging suitcases and bags on what will be an over-capacity commuter route at rush hour?

I'm laughing out loud at this proposal - and I'm a transport operations graduate :rolleyes: - which is incredibly frustrating because as I'm not yet working in the inndustry I feel I should be able to do something and use my learning to influence these moronic decisions but I can't!

Aard · 24-06-2015 10:56pm

bk wrote: »

* I actually think the MN project hurt itself in calling itself a Metro. I think it would have been an easier sell if it called itself Luas North or something like that.

Yep. The general public have a way of getting riled up about things they know nothing about wrt transport planning. Everybody's an armchair transport expert here

You'll probably end up with three Luas lines. That document I linked to earlier shows how it's supposed to look after D2 Phase 2. Red line as-is. Green line Broombridge-Brides Glen. Blue line Swords-SSG (partially underground via D2 Phase 2).

Notice how the underground section of D2 Phase 2 ends in EXACTLY THE SAME POSITION at SSG as MN would have. I wonder if they'll try to use the same station design as the DU/MN SSG station.

Iirc the demand from Swords/Airport was highly exaggerated in the MN documentation. I could be wrong.

Anyway. The people mover renders this a dead duck to me. I recently used London City Airport, where the Docklands Light Railway seamlessly connects with the check-in area. That's what we need from a Dublin Airport rail station.

bk · 24-06-2015 11:11pm

Aard wrote: »

Iirc the demand from Swords/Airport was highly exaggerated in the MN documentation. I could be wrong.

The 20,000 figure I quoted is the per hour capacity of MN. I don't know what the demand figures are.

However 5,500 per hour D2 is 1,000 less then the Green Luas line and we all know that is already at capacity. So I'd expect this would also open at capacity too.

Aard wrote: »

Anyway. The people mover renders this a dead duck to me. I recently used London City Airport, where the Docklands Light Railway seamlessly connects with the check-in area. That's what we need from a Dublin Airport rail station.

Good idea, but if it was automated, which it should be, then you can expect the Irish Rail staff to freak out.

end of the road · 24-06-2015 11:40pm

bk wrote: »

The 20,000 figure I quoted is the per hour capacity of MN. I don't know what the demand figures are.

However 5,500 per hour D2 is 1,000 less then the Green Luas line and we all know that is already at capacity. So I'd expect this would also open at capacity too.

Good idea, but if it was automated, which it should be, then you can expect the Irish Rail staff to freak out.

over what. and no, it should not be automated unless completely segregated from absolutely everything, and we ensure like the oh so perfect dlr that staff are on board to take control in an emergency among other duties

Grandeeod · 25-06-2015 12:48am

I'm dumbfounded as to why anyone would be surprised/shocked etc. by this.

It's business as usual.

sdanseo · 25-06-2015 12:52am

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm dumbfounded as to why anyone would be surprised/shocked etc. by this.

It's business as usual.

Something we have to put a stop to.

I genuinely don't mind (or more correctly, can get over it) if the money simply isn't there to build nice things.

Building or planning things that are total nonsense for Dublin or Ireland and then finding some hyper-innovative city in Europe as a case study to justify it is something I find much less tolerable.

syklops · 25-06-2015 2:14am

I've been reading about the Dargan project. Its thoroughly depressing. There is a transcript of the Oireachtas debate here: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/TRJ/2006/12/13/00003.asp

"Deputy Shortall", I presume is Roisin Shortall. Where do we find these people?

cgcsb · 25-06-2015 9:27am

There are more and more offices being planned for Dublin Airport campus, Swords is the fastest growing town by population, last I checked, in the state. I don't see how quartering the capacity of metro north, adding 15 mins to the journey time and paying the same price for it can be considered as acceptable.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 26-06-2015 12:46am

the whole tram and BXD is a shambles.

it should've all went underground from the beginning with luas taking traffic and pedestrians and everything out of the equation along with the city centre mess at the moment.

A luas to the airport is no use, its too open and too slow in terms of actual speed and number of stops (Stops include actual tram stations and traffic stops for light changes etc.) in comparison to an underground system.

I've used both underground in Paris and London getting from the airport to the city and a direct , fast link is what you want. Not a tram that everybody uses to get about and for scumbags to run a muck on with too many stops.

underground should go ahead for the basics such as speed, quality, capacity, separated from traffic/congestion/incidents on route that the luas has all the time such as traffic, blocking of a track / accidents etc. with it going to the airport.

why you would choose a luas over underground is beyond me.

but the underground must go to the airport as it will make it more worth while also and Irish rail have come out and said it can do it with dart underground no problems.

Idbatterim · 26-06-2015 9:22am

what is the best place to start putting pressure on the minister for transport? writing to him? to local papers? or getting a fund together to put something in a prominent national newspaper to show it up for the sham that it is and take it to pieces there? I pay thousands a year in tax, get nothing in return and it appears Dublin is about to get yet another mickey mouse, hatchet job solution. I have no problem donating money to a fund that could bring this sham into the spotlight...

Would it have been possible to bring the luas greenline underground to O'Connell Street to link the lines and have MN terminate at O'Connell Street?

veryangryman · 26-06-2015 9:23am

Idbatterim wrote: »

what is the best place to start putting pressure on the minister for transport? writing to him? to local papers? or getting a fund together to put something in a prominent national newspaper to show it up for the sham that it is and take it to pieces there? I pay thousands a year in tax, get nothing in return and it appears Dublin is about to get yet another mickey mouse, hatchet job solution. I have no problem donating money to a fund that could bring this sham into the spotlight...

Local TD I would say (and encourage others to do same). If he/she is worth their salt, they'll bring it up.

Idbatterim · 26-06-2015 9:25am

what infuriates me is, they want to be seen to do something, to get votes. It doesnt matter that its not the right thing, as they will probably be long gone by the time the effects of the short sighted vision are realised...

There are more and more offices being planned for Dublin Airport campus, Swords is the fastest growing town by population, last I checked, in the state. I don't see how quartering the capacity of metro north, adding 15 mins to the journey time and paying the same price for it can be considered as acceptable.

I have raised those issues before, also the airport is going to be about 25,000,000 this year, god knows what by the time whatever option is built, that figure alone makes a joke out of anything other than MN or MNO (optimised) or heavy rail... Lets say it is 30.000.000 - 35,000,000 that is a seriously big airport and a tram going out to it is laughable...

cgcsb · 26-06-2015 9:38am

Idbatterim wrote: »

I have raised those issues before, also the airport is going to be about 25,000,000 this year, god knows what by the time whatever option is built, that figure alone makes a joke out of anything other than MN or MNO (optimised) or heavy rail... Lets say it is 30.000.000 - 35,000,000 that is a seriously big airport and a tram going out to it is laughable...

I can't see a similar sized airport on this list with no rail link

Aard · 26-06-2015 9:43am

Idbatterim wrote: »

what is the best place to start putting pressure on the minister for transport?

Did you make a submission to the Fingal North Dublin transport consultation?

ClovenHoof · 26-06-2015 9:58am

Idbatterim wrote: »

what is the best place to start putting pressure on the minister for transport? writing to him? to local papers?

Changing your name to Denis O'Brien. Nothing else works.

Idbatterim · 26-06-2015 10:08am

Did you make a submission to the Fingal North Dublin transport consultation?

no I didnt, I doubt they give a toss, its a smoke screen anyway. The past few pages has blown Luas an option out, so I am sure out highly paid minister for transport with his expertise in the area will reach the same conclusion.

If you look at getting anything changed or done in this country, it is only when they are shamed or backed into a corner by public pressure...

You know the cynic or realist in me, sees this an attempt for them to rush through the cheap job, while they think they still can, because a year or two down the line, the figures will be so overwhelmingly against anything other than MN, MNO etc...

Also could somebody tell me was MN planned to interchange with the northern line?

Murt10 · 26-06-2015 10:27am

cgcsb wrote: »

There are more and more offices being planned for Dublin Airport campus, Swords is the fastest growing town by population, last I checked, in the state.

What about the Greater Blanchardstown Area?

There is an election coming in the near future. I am expecting the Government to announce an extension of the Broombridge Luas line to Blanchardstown.

Two senior ministers in the constituency, which I think for the moment goes right out as far as Swords.

LVaradker (FG) was in charge of Transport for a number of years. I would be surprised if he hadn't been eyeing this project up all along. I think that maybe he was waiting for the right moment to announce it to his constituents, until he was suddenly given the poisoned chalice and moved to Health.

The other Minister in the area is Joan Burton (Lab), who is also the Tainiste. She is part of the 4 man EMC which controls all the financal decisions of the Government.

Both FG and Lab would want and greatly benefit if this major good news project was announced just before the upcoming election.

James Reilly (FG), who has zero credibility with the public at this stage (imo), is based in Swords. I think he was deputy leader of the FG party (not sure if he still is). Any good news on luas/rail commuter improvements would be greatly welcomed by him

As I said, expect a really big announcement.

pclive · 26-06-2015 10:29am

No MN was not planned to interchange with the northern line

I did make a submission at the time asking why not and for it to be linked

Telchak · 26-06-2015 10:53am

Murt10 wrote: »

I am expecting the Government to announce an extension of the Broombridge Luas line to Blanchardstown.

To Ballycoolin maybe, but a line to Blanch proper would go through a lot of empty land alongside an existing rail line so would be pretty hard to justify.

An extension of BXD to Finglas Village & Charlestown and/or a spur to Ballycoolin & Tyrrelstown would probably be the only appropriate extensions to BXD I think (both far in the future).

If the D2 underground section from Broadstone to Stephen's Green did go ahead in the future, it would probably be best for the Green line to become Swords to Bride's Glen. Then BXD could become the city centre section for the the line to Finglas and perhaps the Tallaght via Teranure line. These lines would much better suit the capacity constraints of BXD than the Green line & Airport line.

Murt10 · 26-06-2015 11:14am

Telchak wrote: »

To Ballycoolin maybe, but a line to Blanch proper would go through a lot of empty land alongside an existing rail line so would be pretty hard to justify.

That may be so but the present Sligo train line only serves a very small portion of the Blanchardstown area.

As for the empty land here's a recent article from the IT. Two birds with one stone.

New, well served housing land, for those who need it and a much improved transport system for the rest of the constituency.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/coalition-to-free-up-land-for-additional-housing-1.2257970

Idbatterim · 26-06-2015 11:21am

We have enough dreamers that are willing to believe in Paul Murphy's dogma and the money tree that SF have in ther back garden that would also be clueless enough to believe anything this fool says. I just dont know what he gets out of it

why in gods name when you go that close to the other line, would you not link them? so if you are currently on the northern line and wanted to get to the airport, you would have to go into town and back out again?!

We have a massive housing shortage, higher capacity rail can support higher density housing etc. Is this really the extent of the vision here?

From page 1 of the Aecom report. "The overall objective of this Finglas / North Dublin transportation is to identify the optimum long term public transport solution to connect Dublin City Centre, Dublin airport and Swords" LOL!

is this from the same school of planning that now what the "upgraded" M50 over capacity just as we are coming out of recession?

Aard · 26-06-2015 11:32am

Idbatterim wrote: »

no I didnt, I doubt they give a toss, its a smoke screen anyway. The past few pages has blown Luas an option out, so I am sure out highly paid minister for transport with his expertise in the area will reach the same conclusion.

If you look at getting anything changed or done in this country, it is only when they are shamed or backed into a corner by public pressure...

You know the cynic or realist in me, sees this an attempt for them to rush through the cheap job, while they think they still can, because a year or two down the line, the figures will be so overwhelmingly against anything other than MN, MNO etc...

Also could somebody tell me was MN planned to interchange with the northern line?

Sorry but if you don't engage with the public consultation you don't have much right to complain imo.

Idbatterim · 26-06-2015 11:38am

Sorry but if you don't engage with the public consultation you don't have much right to complain imo.

Aard, I dont deem it acceptable, that we have to battle constantly on many fronts here, to get the right thing done. I find it totally and utterly unacceptable. Most of us I am assuming have busy lives. Should we constantly try to be on top of politicians and planners to do the right thing? Who's job is it, I know for damn sure I am not getting their ridiculous pay and it is not my job...

Wasnt there a report done years ago, that said Luas was not adequate for that corridor? Here we are, growing strongly again and now all of a sudden, luas is an adequate option?

You advocate we base things on figures and sound facts, well those making the decisions arent influenced by them...

I travel to the airport a lot, live close to dundrum luas, would love to be able to take rail transport to the airport, but if it is some botch convoluted luas job, reluctantly I will have to keep going by car. Getting to the airport is time critical, I have no interest in stopping every half minute for a mini tour of Dublin...

on another thread on this subject, multiple flaws were highlighted with that Aecom report...

Aard · 26-06-2015 12:08pm

Public consultation is an amazing facility of the Irish planning system. While not as robust as in some European countries, the fact that the public can have their individual views known and on record is something that most of the world does not have at their disposal.

It's easy to engage with public consultations, almost as easy as writing posts on the topic on an online discussion forum.

hardy_buck · 26-06-2015 12:09pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Aard, I dont deem it acceptable, that we have to battle constantly on many fronts here, to get the right thing done. I find it totally and utterly unacceptable. Most of us I am assuming have busy lives. Should we constantly try to be on top of politicians and planners to do the right thing? Who's job is it, I know for damn sure I am not getting their ridiculous pay and it is not my job...

Wasnt there a report done years ago, that said Luas was not adequate for that corridor? Here we are, growing strongly again and now all of a sudden, luas is an adequate option?

You advocate we base things on figures and sound facts, well those making the decisions arent influenced by them...

I travel to the airport a lot, live close to dundrum luas, would love to be able to take rail transport to the airport, but if it is some botch convoluted luas job, reluctantly I will have to keep going by car. Getting to the airport is time critical, I have no interest in stopping every half minute for a mini tour of Dublin...

on another thread on this subject, multiple flaws were highlighted with that Aecom report...

Grandeeod had a post on the first page I think of this thread that pretty much says all that needs to be said about things. The public consultations and letters to TD's don't really seem to make much of a difference as far as I can see. The rural TD's and in fact TD's even in other areas of the city will fight this tooth and nail within their parties and no doubt through countless other methods as they try to garner pet projects for their own constiuency to secure seats.
The half assed approaches such as luas in this case are as a result of the political structure here favouring localism over a holistic plan, something that has existed since 1922.

No government will ever vote to change the setup so we will be left with a status quo until the population probably breaks 10 million or so (if even?) ,the country is mainly urbanised and we have a more informed electorate who can see beyond some seemingly large figures.
Sorry if I'm being pessimistic...

cgcsb · 26-06-2015 12:18pm

pclive wrote: »

No MN was not planned to interchange with the northern line

I did make a submission at the time asking why not and for it to be linked

yes it was, the connection would be at Drumcondra Station

cgcsb · 26-06-2015 12:20pm

Murt10 wrote: »

What about the Greater Blanchardstown Area?

There is an election coming in the near future. I am expecting the Government to announce an extension of the Broombridge Luas line to Blanchardstown.

Two senior ministers in the constituency, which I think for the moment goes right out as far as Swords.

LVaradker (FG) was in charge of Transport for a number of years. I would be surprised if he hadn't been eyeing this project up all along. I think that maybe he was waiting for the right moment to announce it to his constituents, until he was suddenly given the poisoned chalice and moved to Health.

The other Minister in the area is Joan Burton (Lab), who is also the Tainiste. She is part of the 4 man EMC which controls all the financal decisions of the Government.

Both FG and Lab would want and greatly benefit if this major good news project was announced just before the upcoming election.

James Reilly (FG), who has zero credibility with the public at this stage (imo), is based in Swords. I think he was deputy leader of the FG party (not sure if he still is). Any good news on luas/rail commuter improvements would be greatly welcomed by him

As I said, expect a really big announcement.

It'd be a bit hard to sell when the Maynooth line could easily serve Blanchardstown if Dublin Bus were bothered to provide a suitable feeder bus service.

Aard · 26-06-2015 12:24pm

cgcsb wrote: »

yes it was the connection would be at Drumcondra Station

Not the Northern line.

cgcsb · 26-06-2015 12:33pm

Aard wrote: »

Not the Northern line.

Oh right. Got confused talking about Blanch. True enough but a future extension to somewhere like Donebate could easily have been done in the future. The luas to airport proposal goes right past the Maynooth line and doesn't connect.

end of the road · 26-06-2015 1:55pm

Aard wrote: »

Sorry but if you don't engage with the public consultation you don't have much right to complain imo.

he does have a right yes . we live in a free country, not a dictatorship

Aard · 26-06-2015 2:07pm

end of the road wrote: »

he does have a right yes . we live in a free country, not a dictatorship

Oh god give over with the free country stuff. Not engaging with the consultation then complaining afterwards simply amounts to protest. It's not conducive to influencing the process.

monument · 26-06-2015 2:34pm

Aard wrote: »

Oh god give over with the free country stuff. Not engaging with the consultation then complaining afterwards simply amounts to protest. It's not conducive to influencing the process.

I might have agreed at one point but when we're at the stage of many plans being dropped, chopped and changed you have to start wondering.

We have solid projects shelved or dropped, a key one about to lose its planning permission, and agencies fighting with the NTA in a process and behind their back outside the process to get their project approved.

Banjoxed · 26-06-2015 9:00pm

monument wrote: »

I might have agreed at one point but when we're at the stage of many plans being dropped, chopped and changed you have to start wondering.

We have solid projects shelved or dropped, a key one about to lose its planning permission, and agencies fighting with the NTA in a process and behind their back outside the process to get their project approved.

All we need now is any TD calling for an independent assessment of outstanding projects. Christ on a bike, but Dublin and transport proposals have been analysed to death over the last forty years.

Idbatterim · 27-06-2015 10:10am

Public consultation is an amazing facility of the Irish planning system. While not as robust as in some European countries, the fact that the public can have their individual views known and on record is something that most of the world does not have at their disposal.

It's easy to engage with public consultations, almost as easy as writing posts on the topic on an online discussion forum.

Aard, you honestly think things are based on sound logic and good planning or are they a hot political potato? The soon things grind to an absolute halt again here the better, its only when that happens, that they reluctantly get their finger out.

I wonder when we will get a report on the Aecom report. The only way you can get something done or done properly here is with public pressure, when they capitulate pretty quickly...

they are so obsessed with cycling at the moment, maybe they should just build a segregated footpath and cycle way out to the airport, sure wouldnt that be the cheapest option and promote sustainable modes of transport?

jd · 27-06-2015 2:20pm

Aard wrote: »

Not the Northern line.

If DU is built, wouldn't line at SSG serve current Northern line?

thomasj · 27-06-2015 5:49pm

jd wrote: »

If DU is built, wouldn't line at SSG serve current Northern line?

Yes based on the plans for the interconnector the northern line would have operated to hazelhatch via SSG

strassenwo!f · 28-06-2015 12:26am

thomasj wrote: »

Yes based on the plans for the interconnector the northern line would have operated to hazelhatch via SSG

Yes, based on the plans for the interconnector, the northern line will operate to Hazelhatch via St. Stephen's Green.

To be strictly correct.

expectationlost · 29-06-2015 4:02am

monument wrote: »

Dart Underground planning approval / railway order due to lapse in September if the Government does not make the final call then. But this week and last week there's articles of Luas link to Dublin Airport being funded under the Aer Lingus windfall.

This seems like a big mistake given that the Dart project is ready to go and has one of the best cost benefit ratio around and would have far-reaching benefits.

This is all when a good amount of Dublin-based TDs are ministers.

Are we going around and around and around? Or is it just local TDs pushing local projects?

http://www.northcountyleader.ie/2015/06/16/local-reps-differ-over-aer-lingus-loot/

when I read about this last week I thought at first that the airport link wouldn't qualify but maybe it does reading this more recent description

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-06-23a.16&s=%22connectivity+fund%22#g18.r

connectivity fund

Given that the proceeds came from the sale of the State's stake in a transport asset, the fund will be dedicated to enhancing connectivity both within and for the State. It will allow for much needed investment in a range of commercially viable connectivity projects, both domestic and international. The projects will generate economic impact and competitiveness benefits for Ireland through enhancing our regional connectivity, improving attractiveness and competitiveness in the tourism sector, and promoting investment and enhanced opportunities for growth. For the purposes of the Fund, 'connectivity' will be broadly defined. Therefore, connectivity will be taken to include traditional transport type projects, such as ports and airports, and access to such assets. However, it will also take a wider definition of connectivity to include, for example, data connectivity (including broadband, fibre optic cables, interconnectors, etc) and energy connectivity (including energy inter-connectors and other related projects).

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-06-23a.16&s=%22connectivity+fund%22#g18.r

Muahahaha · 29-06-2015 1:45pm

Its insane to think that Luas could be an option to the airport given how over capacity the green line already is. The demand for it would be just too much from day one and then the politicians will pretend for years that its just a popular service before admitting defeat and going ahead with an airport dedicated underground in the end.

Idbatterim · 29-06-2015 2:00pm

Its insane to think that Luas could be an option to the airport given how over capacity the green line already is. The demand for it would be just too much from day one and then the politicians will pretend for years that its just a popular service before admitting defeat and going ahead with an airport dedicated underground in the end.

Exactly, the "but how were we to know" excuses, simply dont wash anymore!

I had a German colleague who lived here and still does for over twenty years, her logic on it was, we simply couldnt be that stupid when it came to planning, there was simply far more money in getting it wrong than right...

My German dad could never understand how a country with about the population of Berlin a bit over a decade back. Had such problems in running itself and the poor infrastructure... Yet here we still are!

BoatMad · 29-06-2015 2:10pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Exactly, the "but how were we to know" excuses, simply dont wash anymore!

I had a German colleague who divided here and still does for over twenty years, her logic on it was, we simply couldnt be that stupid when it came to planning, there was simply far more money in getting it wrong than right...

My German dad could never understand how a country with about the population of Berlin a bit over a decade back. Had suck problems in running itself and the poor infrastructure... Yet here we still are!

Yes , had we been like the Germans , we'd have great roads , but the two destructions of Europe we would have caused along the way as well as the abortion that is the Euro , might have been a high price to pay !!!!

Ps I've driven most German autobahns, many till recently were utterly clapped out

Ireland does a reasonable job in general , given the constraints ( or have you not driven our motorways at all

BoatMad · 29-06-2015 2:13pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its insane to think that Luas could be an option to the airport given how over capacity the green line already is. The demand for it would be just too much from day one and then the politicians will pretend for years that its just a popular service before admitting defeat and going ahead with an airport dedicated underground in the end.

If LUAS is built and runs at or near capacity it means the project was justified.

jd · 29-06-2015 2:23pm

BoatMad wrote: »

If LUAS is built and runs at or near capacity it means the project was justified.

If it does that from day one, given that Dublin and Airport traffic are projected to grow, it means the "solution" was under-speced.

loyatemu · 29-06-2015 3:17pm

what's current public transport capacity to/from the airport? Anytime I see the Aircoach it does not look packed.

DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

Comments