DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

Decuc500 · 22-09-2015 3:37pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

The idea would be that there would be more of them so less congestion...thats the idea.

I suppose that's the idea in theory...but with 20 minute gaps between trains (the best they can do with the line split with Howth) even the longest possible Darts from Balbriggan would be jammed well before they got to Raheny. The magic 10 minute service we're being promised only works on the Southside where the line isn't split.

Grandeeod · 22-09-2015 3:44pm

BoatMad wrote: »

i think re all agree that the re-design is code for " drop it." so lets not waste too much time on possible " re-designs" that are never going to happen

Absolutely.

Van.Bosch · 22-09-2015 3:47pm

Decuc500 wrote: »

I suppose that's the idea in theory...but with 20 minute gaps between trains (the best they can do with the line split with Howth) even the longest possible Darts from Balbriggan would be jammed well before they got to Raheny. The magic 10 minute service we're being promised only works on the Southside where the line isn't split.

howth trains will only run to howth junction as a shuttle.

btw i completely agree with you - DU would have provided the capacity.

Van.Bosch · 22-09-2015 3:48pm

I saw someone said they wouldn't vote for FG on the basis of this - is there any party who would have delivered this?

Grandeeod · 22-09-2015 3:50pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I saw someone said they wouldn't vote for FG on the basis of this - is there any party who would have delivered this?

No.

dowlingm · 22-09-2015 4:29pm

What are line speeds between Malahide and Balbriggan? Should we assume the Balbriggan DART (and Hazelhatch) will need new equipment for 75mph or more operation and the existing fleet will be used for Maynooth and maybe Howth?

MJohnston · 22-09-2015 4:30pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I saw someone said they wouldn't vote for FG on the basis of this - is there any party who would have delivered this?

Not that I'd have been likely to have voted FG before but the mealy mouthed handling of this project rather than just being honest has ensured I never will. Why have Irish politicians not learned from recent developments in Scotland and England (in the Labour Party at least) that people prefer honest disappointment rather than spin filled lies. Politics of the pre internet age.

thomasj · 22-09-2015 4:30pm

The business plan from the NTA linked earlier in the thread contain plans (if the dart expansion plan goes ahead for

Will contain the following services

- Drogheda Inchicore (DART)
- Balbriggan Hazelhatch (DART)
- Clongriffin Hazelhatch (DART)

- Dundalk GCD (Commuter)*
Dundalk trains will no longer stop at portmarnock or howth junction

- Howth Howth Junction (DART shuttle)

- Maynooth Bray (DART)
- Maynooth Greystones (DART)
- Maynooth GCD (Commuter)
- Longford GCD (Commuter)
- M3 Parkway Clonsilla (Commuter shuttle)

- Newbridge Heuston* (Commuter)
- Portlaoise Heuston* (Commuter)
* both these services will no longer stop between Heuston and Hazelhatch

Both intercity and ESE services will not change from these plans

Lenton Lane · 22-09-2015 4:34pm

thomasj wrote: »

The business plan from the NTA I've linked above contain plans (if the dart expansion plan goes ahead for

Will contain the following services

- Drogheda Inchicore (DART)
- Balbriggan Hazelhatch (DART)
- Clongriffin Hazelhatch (DART)

- Dundalk GCD (Commuter)*
Dundalk trains will no longer stop at portmarnock or howth junction

- Howth Howth Junction (DART shuttle)

- Maynooth Bray (DART)
- Maynooth Greystones (DART)
- Maynooth GCD (Commuter)
- Longford GCD (Commuter)
- M3 Parkway Clonsilla (Commuter shuttle)

- Newbridge Heuston* (Commuter)
- Portlaoise Heuston* (Commuter)
* both these services will no longer stop between Heuston and Hazelhatch

Both intercity and ESE services will not change from these plans

And for the Airport, Swords and Navan, nothing. A possible long term turnaround just across the river from Docklands.

What kind of idiots are working in the NTA? Surely the tunnel continuing to Docklands would enable a central Intercity bus and train station near docklands that would be the terminus for all trains to Dublin?

BoatMad · 22-09-2015 4:38pm

before but the mealy mouthed handling of this project

How, Paschal clearly said recently theres no money for it and it was not being prioritised. Its clear to me it simply lost out in th lottery that is capital funding this year, doesn't mean it cant re-appear in the future . IN fact they are being very honest , rathe then what happened before in that the project was allowed to drag on , with no actual budget being assigned

BoatMad · 22-09-2015 4:48pm

heres the piece in the Indo

Mr Donohoe brought a recommendation to Government today which was approved to cease the €3bn current project as it is no longer justified.
But Mr Donohoe did say that expansion of the DART lines to Balbriggan in north Dublin and Hazlehatch in Kildare will proceed and are due to be completed by 2022.
The DART underground tunnel originally planned to link Heuston Station to Pearse Street and Docklands Stations in the city centre with a station at St Stephen’s Green.
But, at a press event in Dublin today, Mr Donohoe said a business case review of the plan determined that projected number of passengers at the time of its design have not materialised and now a reduced design will be commissioned.
As a result, almost €120m of compulsory land purchases which were due to take place to facilitate the tunnel will now not go ahead, pending the redesign of the tunnel plan.
Mr Donohoe said: “At Cabinet this morning, the Government made a decision in relation to the future of the DART expansion.
We reaffirmed our commitment to the long term role and use of this project. When this project happens, it will be the largest project in the history of the State, with a current cost of €4bn, €3bn is in relation to the tunnel and other expansion matters total €1bn,” he said.
“This is a project however that was conceived over a decade ago when our country was very different in terms of the growth that was expected,” he added.
“This Government in its term of office took a decision to defer certain elements of the plan. Alongside that we asked the National Transport Authority to review the business case of the plan.”
“I have reviewed the business case for the plan in relation to DART underground and this formed the basis of the recommendation I made to Cabinet today,” he said.
“The tunnel as it is currently designed at the moment does need to be redesigned to meet future needs. Other elements of the DART’s expansion package, most notably the expansion to the DART to Balbriggan will be contained in the forthcoming Capital plan,” he said.

not quite dead , but different,

we shall see

Infini · 22-09-2015 5:32pm

BoatMad wrote: »

How, Paschal clearly said recently theres no money for it and it was not being prioritised. Its clear to me it simply lost out in th lottery that is capital funding this year, doesn't mean it cant re-appear in the future . IN fact they are being very honest , rathe then what happened before in that the project was allowed to drag on , with no actual budget being assigned

To be honest they couldve at least secured the CPOs for a fraction of the cost but they arent even doing this. Its just their way of trying to weasle out of building it. Simply put eventually someones gonna have to build it but itll be far more expensive down the road than if they keep the groundwork now for it. I mean they wanna build motorways down the country that wont even reach half their capacity an utter waste of money and once again an onvious attempt to bribe the electorate into voting them in again.

_Kaiser_ · 22-09-2015 5:38pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I saw someone said they wouldn't vote for FG on the basis of this - is there any party who would have delivered this?

It's really not that surprising unfortunately. With a mainly rural bias, FG have votes to win and "the feckin Dubs get too much as it is anyway" :rolleyes:

It's the same reason why they've done feck all about the increasing congestion and housing crisis in the city over the last 12 months or so - instead we have a situation where people are being priced out into the surrounding counties again like it's 2005!

As someone else posted above, this money will be diverted to short-term populist nonsense that will win seats - and yet we're supposed to believe that this is "new politics"?

end of the road · 22-09-2015 5:54pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

howth trains will only run to howth junction as a shuttle.

not so sure. that might be the plan but i cannot see the users of the howth to howth junction line letting their direct trains to become a howth howth junction shuttle only without a fight

MJohnston · 22-09-2015 6:06pm

BoatMad wrote: »

How, Paschal clearly said recently theres no money for it and it was not being prioritised. Its clear to me it simply lost out in th lottery that is capital funding this year, doesn't mean it cant re-appear in the future . IN fact they are being very honest , rathe then what happened before in that the project was allowed to drag on , with no actual budget being assigned

"what happened before" is on them, and exactly what I mean - they might have been somewhat honest here at the death, but that's after what seems to be now years of messing us all around.

BoatMad · 22-09-2015 6:07pm

Infini2 wrote: »

To be honest they couldve at least secured the CPOs for a fraction of the cost but they arent even doing this. Its just their way of trying to weasle out of building it. Simply put eventually someones gonna have to build it but itll be far more expensive down the road than if they keep the groundwork now for it. I mean they wanna build motorways down the country that wont even reach half their capacity an utter waste of money and once again an onvious attempt to bribe the electorate into voting them in again.

given that the tunnel is going to change, I think it would be foolish to proceed with the CPOs, The high court also was clear that tiger had to be a commitment to proceed , so that remains an issue.

In reality re introduction a rail order, and doing the CPOs is not a big deal in the scheme of things

motorways are different, people want them. the public however doesnt get DU

end of the road · 22-09-2015 6:08pm

thomasj wrote: »

The business plan from the NTA linked earlier in the thread contain plans (if the dart expansion plan goes ahead for

Will contain the following services

- Drogheda Inchicore (DART)
- Balbriggan Hazelhatch (DART)
- Clongriffin Hazelhatch (DART)

- Dundalk GCD (Commuter)*
Dundalk trains will no longer stop at portmarnock or howth junction

- Howth Howth Junction (DART shuttle)

- Maynooth Bray (DART)
- Maynooth Greystones (DART)
- Maynooth GCD (Commuter)
- Longford GCD (Commuter)
- M3 Parkway Clonsilla (Commuter shuttle)

- Newbridge Heuston* (Commuter)
- Portlaoise Heuston* (Commuter)
* both these services will no longer stop between Heuston and Hazelhatch

Both intercity and ESE services will not change from these plans

the maynooth GCD service will be an express dart service using EMUS surely? if the plans are for dart to go from maynooth to greystones and bray then no point in using diesels to GCD, just use electric.

Banjoxed · 22-09-2015 6:13pm

BoatMad wrote: »

motorways are different, people want them. the public however doesnt get DU

Farmers, builders, estate agents, aggregate dealers and car dealers want motorways, for the very reason that low density development is a lucrative business.

Red lines on maps can be shifted.

In the end, it's about those who have a stake in the status quo.

thomasj · 22-09-2015 6:16pm

end of the road wrote: »

the maynooth GCD service will be an express dart service using EMUS surely? if the plans are for dart to go from maynooth to greystones and bray then no point in using diesels to GCD, just use electric.

It looks like they're additional peak hour services (2 per hour from 6-10am) as 8-coach DMUs. It says they will call at all stops.

ClovenHoof · 22-09-2015 6:17pm

The tunnel is not going to change! This is a lie they are throwing out there to deal with the backlash over them dumping DU.

People on this forum in their mid 20s will never see any form of underground rail link built in Dublin within their lifetime.

NEVER. Irish politicians no conception of city life. Never will either.

It is not just FG, every single political party is responsible.

BoatMad · 22-09-2015 6:20pm

People on this forum in their mid 20s will never see an form of underground rail link built in Dublin within their lifetime.

in itself , so what, many cities of comparable size have no undergrounds,

Muahahaha · 22-09-2015 6:35pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I saw someone said they wouldn't vote for FG on the basis of this - is there any party who would have delivered this?

Doubt it, not even the Greens were shouting up about it. Not that they're getting anywhere near the levers of power anytime soon.

Can anyone hazard a guess how much public money has already been sunk into the planning of DU?

Idbatterim · 22-09-2015 6:41pm

I saw someone said they wouldn't vote for FG on the basis of this - is there any party who would have delivered this?

FF came up with DU and MN I believe and I reckon they were dead certs, had we not had the crash! Its an awful shame contracts hadnt been signed and construction commenced on both projects!

It's really not that surprising unfortunately. With a mainly rural bias, FG have votes to win and "the feckin Dubs get too much as it is anyway"

It's the same reason why they've done feck all about the increasing congestion and housing crisis in the city over the last 12 months or so - instead we have a situation where people are being priced out into the surrounding counties again like it's 2005!

As someone else posted above, this money will be diverted to short-term populist nonsense that will win seats - and yet we're supposed to believe that this is "new politics"?

I totally agree, Dublin is being bled dry, thats why our infrastructure is crap! I made the below post on skyscrapercity on the equivalent forum on that site...

Quote:
The Government has decided not to go ahead with the DART Underground, however there are plans to extend the DART to Balbriggan by 2022.

Minister for Transport Paschal Donohoe said he reviewed the business case for DART Underground and recommended to Cabinet that the tunnel as currently designed does not meet current transport needs.
Well isnt that great, forget any plans to the airport, stop work on Luas cross city, forget DU or any version of it! We have DART to Balbriggan by 2022! It doesnt meet transport needs LOL fu***ng L! what do they give a s**t about meeting current needs, you can take a look at dublins appalling infrastructure to see that! What is the plan, wait until the "current needs" are vastly above breaking point, before doing something, the usual scenario from our "planners" and visionary politicians here?

Quote from media article...
€40 million has already been spent on this project, but compulsory purchase orders worth €120 million will not now go ahead.

That is DU they are referring to, a funny figure that, €120,000,000 , its the same figure they have no problem giving away for the upcoming welfare christmas bonus! Thats Ireland and its priorities in a nutshell!

you know, its become evident to me, that our Dublin based TD's are simply not doing anywhere near enough to protect the golden goose i.e. Dublins interest. If Dublin was in Kerry and we had Healy Rae types representing us, we would be travelling around by teleporation in the 1970's!

I am done with those FG snakes, lessons have been learned, a new politics LOL!

ClovenHoof · 22-09-2015 6:52pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

you know, its become evident to me, that our Dublin based TD's are simply not doing anywhere near enough to protect the golden goose i.e. Dublins interest.

Ciaran Cuffe lobbying for the Western Rail Corridor, while asking not to be involved in Dublin Rail Projects, who remembers that!

Grandeeod · 22-09-2015 7:06pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Ciaran Cuffe lobbying for the Western Rail Corridor, while asking not to be involved in Dublin Rail Projects, who remembers that!

That was a classic! I posted the evidence a while back. No politician has the balls for big rail projects and if anyone thinks that Dublin isn't being screwed they are in a denial.

Mec-a-nic · 22-09-2015 7:19pm

end of the road wrote: »

not so sure. that might be the plan but i cannot see the users of the howth to howth junction line letting their direct trains to become a howth howth junction shuttle only without a fight

I wouldn't be so sure - it's a pis-poor service already with up to 30min waits - if it is off peak, it is quicker for me to cycle into Dublin than wait. If a shuttle enables more regular connections, I'd be all for it.

RIP DU - I've said it for decades since the LUAS was split - Politicians should never be allowed near engineering infrastructure...

Muahahaha · 22-09-2015 8:01pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

you know, its become evident to me, that our Dublin based TD's are simply not doing anywhere near enough to protect the golden goose i.e. Dublins interest. If Dublin was in Kerry and we had Healy Rae types representing us, we would be travelling around by teleporation in the 70's!

I am done with those FG snakes, lessons have been learned, a new politics LOL!

If anything the whole debacle shows how Dublin needs a directly elected mayor with responsibility for transport now more than ever. But even that isn't horizon anytime soon after Fingal CC voted it down despite the other three Dublin councils backing it. It had broad approval but Phil Hogan rigged it so all four councils would have to vote yes, 75% approval wasnt democratic enough for him and here we are still without a single voice pushing for infrastructure in Dublin.

dowlingm · 22-09-2015 8:11pm

If Pace-Clonsilla was a shuttle then you'd have to ask why not Howth. It would eliminate a bunch of conflicting movements.

Better still would be to LUAS it, doglegging it onto the R104 across Coolock towards a junction with this LUAS which will supposedly go to the airport, plus drop 1-2 additional stops into the existing line.

Calina · 22-09-2015 8:25pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

If anything the whole debacle shows how Dublin needs a directly elected mayor with responsibility for transport now more than ever. But even that isn't horizon anytime soon after Fingal CC voted it down despite the other three Dublin councils backing it. It had broad approval but Phil Hogan rigged it so all four councils would have to vote yes, 75% approval wasnt democratic enough for him and here we are still without a single voice pushing for infrastructure in Dublin.

It doesn't have to be a directed elected mayor to achieve this and to be frank I don't think one would achieve it to be honest.

But certainly regional transport decisions need to cease to be the sole preserve of the Minister for Transport. Effectively there needs to be stronger regional governance rather than the centralisation of powers which we have now. Given decisions to reduce property taxes by some of those local authorities in Dublin, I'm not really convinced there's a solution here either.

Or tl;dr, can't see a mayor fixing this for exactly the same reason that these things aren't fixed by central government. They take longer than a single term to achieve.

dublinman1990 · 22-09-2015 9:42pm

What are these shower of clowns in government thinking about in their spare time when they are trying, and monumentally failing, to come up with a suitable 'defence' to scrap this vital piece of infrastructure that is needed for the lifeblood of Dublin and it's commuters alike.

This country knowingly is already in huge debt with the all of the crises in the banks, the health service, the anglo promissory note debacle and people going out in protest by not paying up LPT's and WC's going on all around us. Can I ask this government what is your critical plan to stop the economy from crashing into oblivion for the long term.

This project was in effect going to provide a certain amount of optimism in creating in the following

1) a sustainable amount of jobs for upon tens of thousands of people living along the first proposed line
2) new energy efficient homes in which will help to alleviate an already big housing crisis in Dublin city and county
3) much better public transport options which will be allowed to co-exist along with DU & will help commuters to get into Dublin by not suffering major delays while going to/from work

This decision by the Paschal Donoghue really is nothing short of a disgrace and should immediately be reversed. The government should at least attempt to apply for significant funding for DU and MN from either the EU/EC or the European Investment Bank to get these projects started and completed. If that opportunity comes up, well, we wouldn't care which project get started first as it would be a fantastic opportunity to try and begin to get Dublin booming again.

But we all know that in Ireland that this won't ever happen at all within this government's lifetime until regrettably after the next GE when this whole this issue is raised in the next government and the next and the next and the next until it comes to shuddering halt for good.

Rashers72 · 22-09-2015 10:27pm

I think the DART to Balbriggan on its own, is a complete waste of taxpayers money. From seeing the impact of the DART on Malahide I foresee the following:
> Longer journeys times then today. Example: Today Donabate to Connolly has maybe 3 stops en-route (some are faster). With DART every journey will be 8 stops minimum (assuming same as Greystones, no non stop DARTS)
> Assume an 8 carriage DART has a lot less seats then an 8 carriage commuter train
> No toilet facilities on DARTs despite the much longer journey times
> No overhead storage on DARTs, again despite the longer journeys. Look at any train on Northern suburban line today. They are used constantly.
> Air Con and heating on DARTs is very poor compared to the class 22000 trains
> Without a proper passing loop at Balbriggan, there are bound to be the same delays as occur every day at Malahide
> Again without proper passing loops from Connolly to Balbriggan both northbound and southbound, the daily delays on the DARTS will now impact Enterprise and Northern suburban line for a lot longer.

I really wish I could be a lot more positive, so if anyone can tell be of any benefits please do. It took years of campaigning to persuade Irish Rail to provide a Sunday service on the Northern line, and improve the frequency (at least to peak services). I really fear this is a bad day for transport in Fingal. There has been a universal negative reaction to this announcement. They should have spent the money on something else, like running earlier trains in the week, or later trains Wed - Sat. Dept of Transport should have asked the customers what they wanted.

Idbatterim · 23-09-2015 1:15am

Originally Posted by Van.Bosch View Post
I saw someone said they wouldn't vote for FG on the basis of this - is there any party who would have delivered this?

FF have said it is shortsighted, now you or I could well say, "well they would say that". Well they got the port tunnel built and i am sure they would have started on MN and DU if they economy hadnt tanked. At this stage, I'm prepared to vote for them again, this is the final nail in the coffin for my FG vote. They have a total anti Dublin agenda and its gone too far this time... Luas to the airport, Luas to the airport and Swords! They can stick it!

I personally couldnt give a flying f**ck what is looks like to non Dubs, they are all massive benefactors of the Dublin economy and the better we do, the better they do! I couldnt care about optics or pussyfooting about this issue anymore!

There was a post in a thread on the economics forum recently from a poster who said he felt FG were too conservative and holding the economy back and I agree... They are too cautious, borrow money for infrastructure, its an excellent investment and would fast forward the recovery! As far as I am concerned, this is a major election issue for myself and thousands of others in Dublin, if FF say they will get it back on track if they get into coalition, I will take a gamble on their claim and give them a vote... I will email a few FF TD's tomorrow, if FG all of a sudden sense there is competition for votes on this issue, the snakes may row back!

Amirani · 23-09-2015 8:53am

Some talk today about metro back on.

Keyzer · 23-09-2015 9:33am

Morons...

The lack of forward thinking, planning and vision is embarrassing.

This could have been the start of something great for Dublin (and rest of the country from an economic point of view).

Captain Chaos · 23-09-2015 9:39am

Anything less than DU will be a massive waste of time and money as the alternative projects will not have the capacity to cope with what they are being built for. MN is a low medium option and a waste of billions. If anything the Luas spur and MN should be shelved as being not up to standard. Build a full spec DU and link it up with a Luas spur later as needed.

MN will end up as a new segregated system, new rolling stock limited only to the MN system.

DU can use existing rolling stock and systems.

thomasj · 23-09-2015 9:43am

Going off topic I see web summit is to move to Portugal next year for 3 years.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0923/729704-web-summit

From that passage

The event will take place in the MEO Arena and Feira Internacional de Lisboa (FIL) – a venue which can accommodate at least 50,000 people and which the Web Summit says has extensive transport links and capacity to enable it to grow substantially.

Maybe sending out a message about our transport infrastructure?

StonyIron · 23-09-2015 9:46am

Muahahaha wrote: »

If anything the whole debacle shows how Dublin needs a directly elected mayor with responsibility for transport now more than ever. But even that isn't horizon anytime soon after Fingal CC voted it down despite the other three Dublin councils backing it. It had broad approval but Phil Hogan rigged it so all four councils would have to vote yes, 75% approval wasnt democratic enough for him and here we are still without a single voice pushing for infrastructure in Dublin.

The government plan seems to be the total opposite! Cork City is now faced with having to take Supreme Court action to fight for its very existence. Rather than create a decent urban area down there, the government is pushing the daft idea of merging it with a rural county half the size of Northern Ireland.

This government and most Irish Governments have no clue how to run urban areas.

Can you imagine any other EU country proposing abolishing city councils?!!?

We should be looking towards executive mayors and transit authorities for Dublin, Cork & probably the other 3 cities too.

Instead it's just water down and dilute already totally dysfunctional local government structures.

My only conclusion is that the government hates cities and fears local autonomy as it sees them as a potential challenge to central government authority, especially as they might vote more radically than the national average.

Without decent city authorities with real power over things like public transport and also local policing etc etc we will never have proper cities like continental countries.

You can forget any notion of serious urban planning and we'll be stuck with this quasi-rural, badly planned mess. We're remarkably one of the least urbanised developed in the world and its why we struggle to deliver modern services like decent broadband, public transit and sewage treatment etc etc

We don't even have proper individual addresses for 1/3 of our houses, a problem normally seen in the 3rd world.

Look at Dublin's older areas pre 1921 - organised, planned, parks, services : areas like Druncondra, Griffith Ave, Stoneybatter - all done in the last era when planning was taken seriously.

Since independence the City Corporations / Councils have been progressively damaged and weakened and we've this daft model using an appointed City Manager as chief executive instead of a mayor and council having authority.

Look at modern Dublin development - other than the IFSC / Docklands which had its own development authority albeit a company structure rather than a democracy, the modern developments are all low density, bland, sprawl. Most of the new suburbs are also just strung out along motorways without any creation of streets, urban centres of proper anything. Just disconnected, disjointed housing estates and shopping centre with no sense of urbanity.

The government also failed to reform town councils and instead abolished them, removing any autonomy for large towns all over the country and never created town councils in rapidly growing commuter towns. How's a town supposed to function without any focus of town hall?!!? Some of these are towns with tens of thousands of people and I'm not aware of ANY other country that has abolished town councils. It just seems absolutely bizarre and totally stupid.

We have to stop and think or we will end up with a total mess!

Rural and urban aren't the same thing and have very different needs. One size doesn't fit all.

Apologies if this is a bit of a rant but, having lived on the continent I am just absolutely horrified at how anti-urban this country is. All of the policies seem to be about spreading development as thinly as possible and scattering everything to the four winds. It's neither sustainable nor good for either urban or rural areas.

There are French and German villages with more autonomy than Dublin and Cork have and that is a total indictment of Ireland political system!

Elmer Blooker · 23-09-2015 10:28am

thomasj wrote: »

Going off topic I see web summit is to move to Portugal next year for 3 years.

Maybe sending out a message about our transport infrastructure?

You're not going off topic at all. A few weeks ago I saw an article (Independent or Times?) about business people warning that congestion and gridlock in Dublin is a serious threat to economic recovery. The moving of this web summit to Lisbon is a loss of €100m to the economy and this is only the start of it!

Van.Bosch · 23-09-2015 10:54am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Anything less than DU will be a massive waste of time and money as the alternative projects will not have the capacity to cope with what they are being built for. MN is a low medium option and a waste of billions. If anything the Luas spur and MN should be shelved as being not up to standard. Build a full spec DU and link it up with a Luas spur later as needed.

MN will end up as a new segregated system, new rolling stock limited only to the MN system.

DU can use existing rolling stock and systems.

Is it not planned that MN optimised will use Luas trams?

cgcsb · 23-09-2015 11:03am

Getting metro North would be great, but without DART u it's just dumping people in Stephen's Green. I know that DARTu will be back on track for the 2020 election but honestly they could have just CPOed the land and kept the project on ice, why waste money starting from scratch?

Keyzer · 23-09-2015 11:05am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You're not going off topic at all. A few weeks ago I saw an article (Independent or Times?) about business people warning that congestion and gridlock in Dublin is a serious threat to economic recovery. The moving of this web summit to Lisbon is a loss of €100m to the economy and this is only the start of it!

Exactly the point. These events and many more like them will not take place in Dublin for these very reasons.

€100M loss this year. Given the growth of the event, the expected losses will only increase. This is where the government should look when they are searching for a return on investment.

If the Web Summit were to stay in Dublin for the next ten years it would be worth, at a minimum, €1BN to the economy.

What part of this doesn't make sense to the decision makers? They obviously have no understanding or idea what an investment actually means.

We're already decades behind where we should be in terms of a transport network for the nations capital.

Idbatterim · 23-09-2015 12:39pm

Anything less than DU will be a massive waste of time and money as the alternative projects will not have the capacity to cope with what they are being built for. MN is a low medium option and a waste of billions. If anything the Luas spur and MN should be shelved as being not up to standard. Build a full spec DU and link it up with a Luas spur later as needed.

MN will end up as a new segregated system, new rolling stock limited only to the MN system.

DU can use existing rolling stock and systems.

I cant see how Dublin Airport wont be serviced by heavy rail in the next 15-20 years, serving it with a spur etc is pocket change. If we get MN for the time being, as now appears to be the case, I will be happy...

StonyIron · 23-09-2015 12:50pm

The problem is they plan 4 to 5 years ahead and public transport takes decades to build and plan. These are projects that need to be thinking 50 years+ ahead and actually building the fabric of cities.

There's effectively no autonomous city authorities - Dublin City Council doesn't even get trusted to collect the bins anymore, let alone run a public transit franchises or roll out serious infrastructure.

Reality was that DART should have been a Dublin Area Rapid Transit authority, not just wiring up a train line along the coast.

We should have transit authorities covering the management and development of transport in at the very least Dublin, Cork ... and the other three cities (and probably regional transit authotiries running rural and town services elsewhere.)

It makes *absolutely* no sense to be making local transport policy for cities in the Dail at a national level as every local interest in Ireland is playing against each other and it's all one big messy budget.

I doubt anything will ever change though!

Captain Chaos · 23-09-2015 12:52pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I cant see how Dublin Airport wont be serviced by heavy rail in the next 15-20 years, serving it with a spur etc is pocket change. If we get MN for the time being, as now appears to be the case, I will be happy...

It won't be with the current city planners, simple as.

MN is a short quick fix that will end up like the Bertie Bowl plan. For MN to work you need a new electrical systems, new rolling stock and new signaling system just for a start. That's all new non standard systems. At least with Luas they went with off the shelf trams that are in use in France on standard gauge track but it has the lower loading gauge than Irish gauge track which allows for wider rolling stock for great passenger comfort with wider seating and ailes and standing capacity.

DU, on the other hand would utilize the same rolling stock, same electrical systems and signalling. This all leads to cost savings of millions over the life time of the system due to economies of scale and a far more flexible system that can be mixed and matched with the current network.

We have two disjointed rail systems in the city as it is, no need for a third. Just expand and link up the two we have is the best option.

StonyIron · 23-09-2015 12:57pm

To be honest, you don't need to get caught up on the finer detail where rolling stock doesn't need to roll over other lines. Most metro lines in Paris for example have rolling stock that will only ever run up and down one line and may have totally different wheels (rubber vs steel), power, signalling etc.

We probably should have been phasing in standard gauge decades ago like Spain is using dual gauge stock in the interim. Long term it means off the shelf designs and cost savings. However as we can only think one election ahead, that's not likely here.

The problem here is that we don't even create interchange points properly. Dublin needs a central station to handle most interchanges probably underground. It should have been built decades ago and should also be a hub for busses. Realisti

The city centre isn't that big and we simply don't need all these multiple mini gubs.

When you look at what's done elsewhere they spend serious money on creating big, well designed interchanges.

end of the road · 23-09-2015 1:54pm

StonyIron wrote: »

The problem is they plan 4 to 5 years ahead and public transport takes decades to build and plan. These are projects that need to be thinking 50 years+ ahead and actually building the fabric of cities.

There's effectively no autonomous city authorities - Dublin City Council doesn't even get trusted to collect the bins anymore, let alone run a public transit franchises or roll out serious infrastructure.

Reality was that DART should have been a Dublin Area Rapid Transit authority, not just wiring up a train line along the coast.

We should have transit authorities covering the management and development of transport in at the very least Dublin, Cork ... and the other three cities (and probably regional transit authotiries running rural and town services elsewhere.)

It makes *absolutely* no sense to be making local transport policy for cities in the Dail at a national level as every local interest in Ireland is playing against each other and it's all one big messy budget.

I doubt anything will ever change though!

will the people be able to elect the members of these authorities you propose? if not, i'm not interested. i don't even trust my local council so frankly i'm not sure giving them more powers would be a good idea

end of the road · 23-09-2015 2:02pm

StonyIron wrote: »

To be honest, you don't need to get caught up on the finer detail where rolling stock doesn't need to roll over other lines. Most metro lines in Paris for example have rolling stock that will only ever run up and down one line and may have totally different wheels (rubber vs steel), power, signalling etc.

We probably should have been phasing in standard gauge decades ago like Spain is using dual gauge stock in the interim. Long term it means off the shelf designs and cost savings. However as we can only think one election ahead, that's not likely here.

The problem here is that we don't even create interchange points properly. Dublin needs a central station to handle most interchanges probably underground. It should have been built decades ago and should also be a hub for busses. Realisti

The city centre isn't that big and we simply don't need all these multiple mini gubs.

When you look at what's done elsewhere they spend serious money on creating big, well designed interchanges.

unfortunately converting to standard gauge isn't an option though. its never going to happen due to cost. our future rail lines do need to be integrated fully with the heavy rail network and dart trains able to use it. it is better in the long run then trains running up and down 1 line. ditto about luas, if numbers grow decently by the time its infrastructure needs replacing then hopefully converting it or part of it to heavy raill will be considered.

Idbatterim · 23-09-2015 2:10pm

MN is a short quick fix that will end up like the Bertie Bowl plan. For MN to work you need a new electrical systems, new rolling stock and new signaling system just for a start. That's all new non standard systems. At least with Luas they went with off the shelf trams that are in use in France on standard gauge track but it has the lower loading gauge than Irish gauge track which allows for wider rolling stock for great passenger comfort with wider seating and ailes and standing capacity.

ok, so why not have luas serve the airport, but with longer trams and mostly or totally segregated? The current green line, was always planned to be upgraded to metro in the future... Could they not do a short running from SSG to airport with longer trams, until current green line had longer platforms, or simply start building them now and complete the extension out to bray?

I don't have an issue with luas serving the airport, once most of it is offstreet running, with no travelator at airport and the trams are of adequate capacity and frequency...

We simply go round in circles in this country, because everything is done so piecemeal! Its crazy!

cgcsb · 23-09-2015 2:11pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It won't be with the current city planners, simple as.

MN is a short quick fix that will end up like the Bertie Bowl plan. For MN to work you need a new electrical systems, new rolling stock and new signaling system just for a start. That's all new non standard systems. At least with Luas they went with off the shelf trams that are in use in France on standard gauge track but it has the lower loading gauge than Irish gauge track which allows for wider rolling stock for great passenger comfort with wider seating and ailes and standing capacity.

DU, on the other hand would utilize the same rolling stock, same electrical systems and signalling. This all leads to cost savings of millions over the life time of the system due to economies of scale and a far more flexible system that can be mixed and matched with the current network.

We have two disjointed rail systems in the city as it is, no need for a third. Just expand and link up the two we have is the best option.

your misunderstanding of the project is a common one and one which is often peddled by the Irish Times. Metro North is in fact a luas line, it's just mostly in tunnel, same gauge, signals, voltage etc. perhaps slightly longer trams.

daheff · 23-09-2015 2:11pm

StonyIron wrote: »

T
We don't even have proper individual addresses for 1/3 of our houses, a problem normally seen in the 3rd world.

i've seen this nonsense thrown out as an excuse to waste millions on Eircode. I for one do not believe that a third of houses have non unique addresses. are you telling me that every third house in dublin has the same address? No chance. They might have the same first couple of lines, but once you add in the town/suburb and area code then they are not unique. Even Ireland isnt that bad to have 2 #1 st patrick street terenure dublin 6w!

DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

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