DART Underground planning due to lapse, but lots of Airport Luas talk?

monument wrote: »

Dart Underground planning approval / railway order due to lapse in September if the Government does not make the final call then. But this week and last week there's articles of Luas link to Dublin Airport being funded under the Aer Lingus windfall.

This seems like a big mistake given that the Dart project is ready to go and has one of the best cost benefit ratio around and would have far-reaching benefits.

This is all when a good amount of Dublin-based TDs are ministers.

Are we going around and around and around? Or is it just local TDs pushing local projects?

Edited link added:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/coalition-to-free-up-land-for-additional-housing-1.2257970

http://www.northcountyleader.ie/2015/06/16/local-reps-differ-over-aer-lingus-loot/

The Gov could fudge the issue and approve the scheme, but delay the start I presume

mickmmc wrote: »

The Fingal Independent had an article last week stating that luas from Cabra to Swords and 'Modified Metro North' would be recommended by the NTA to government.

The cabinet will pick either the Luas option or 'Modified Metro North'.

In my opinion, BRT for Swords has become politically toxic for James O' Reilly TD (FG) and Alan Farrell TD (FG).

Again, BRT is not for "Swords", it's for the entire Swords Road corridor.


Why do you and others keep ignoring that?

Calina wrote: »

Because some of us are highly concerned that if BRT to Swords is implemented, Metro North will not be. And given a choice, I'd prefer to see MN prioritised.

You've said before that infrastructural work is required along the Swords road corridor. But I see no reason why BRT to Swords is required to carry out said work from Whitehall citywards.

But the point is BRT will benefit everyone along the corridor - be they in Swords, travelling to points along the corridor or people starting their journeys elsewhere along the corridor travelling towards the city or outward.

This notion that it's just for Swords has got to be drummed out of people because it's not. BRT needs to happen across Dublin, and that isn't going to change because of Metro North.

Calina wrote: »

I'm not sure it does. Changes to the existing bus services from Dublin Airport haven't been hammered out but suggestions that the 16 will vary/disappear is a material worsening of services in parts of Beaumont, for example, and may have an impact on the other side of the city as well. The Drumcondra corridor is horribly congested with buses at the moment, and I don't see BRT as the most viable solution to deal with that either. We could do with replacing a lot of those buses with a decent rail system and improving mode changes in Dublin.

I'm not arguing that it's just for Swords. I'm arguing that the project as proposed represents a risk to the implementation of the metro line and may have detrimental impacts on existing bus services. In particular, at least one other thread on the subject has identified the 16's continued routing as coming into question. I'm also not clear on interaction between the existing double decker services and BRT. The documentation isn't fully clear in terms of how that's going to work out.

The last time I looked at the BRT documentation, it suggested that on the day it went into operation, it would already be inadequate to needs. In that context, I'm not seeing why it is the right solution.

Look I am not arguing with any of the points you raised. We don't know what the impact on other buses will be yet.

I was simply reminding another poster that BRT is not just about Swords. So many posts keep saying "but sure we have Swords Express" - that's not the point - it's a completely separate operation that only serves Swords. BRT will serve the entire corridor.

monument wrote: »

Dart Underground planning approval / railway order due to lapse in September if the Government does not make the final call then. But this week and last week there's articles of Luas link to Dublin Airport being funded under the Aer Lingus windfall.

This seems like a big mistake given that the Dart project is ready to go and has one of the best cost benefit ratio around and would have far-reaching benefits.

This is all when a good amount of Dublin-based TDs are ministers.

Are we going around and around and around? Or is it just local TDs pushing local projects?

Edited link added:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/coalition-to-free-up-land-for-additional-housing-1.2257970

http://www.northcountyleader.ie/2015/06/16/local-reps-differ-over-aer-lingus-loot/

I guess judgement day is finally approaching unless some sort of fudge is introduced, which would not be a surprise. But a fudge does not equate to a committment.

I bolded a part of your quote, because it's actually very important and you appeared to misunderstand me in a different (Galway) thread. In general, major rail based projects tend to be part of what you describe as going "around and around and around". That is a sad fact. However the "local" aspect is quite relevant too. It's about TDs AND local interests. It's not in any way shape or form about the "national" interest. Ireland doesn't do big stuff in terms of public transport. It does piecemeal stuff. The WRC was a classic example of that and when I see proposals for LR in Galway, I usually react in the same manner. In an ideal world LR for Galway would be part of a national plan rolled out on the basis of priority. DU and some form of MN/Metro in general (IMO) would be first. However, we continually find ourselves in a situation, where projects like DU aren't delivered and then we try to reinvent other projects like MN. The entire rail based plan for Dublin has been floating around in some shape or form for over 40 odd years. What have we achieved? Very little. If we can't get our capital city on the right track, we shouldn't even consider anywhere else.

What's needed is a complete transformation of the political and social landscape in relation to rail transport. But I can't see that coming unless responsible lobbying is done at a high level. Funnily enough, it has nothing to do with money. A "National Rail based transport idea", costs very little. Bit by bit it can be converted to a plan. As money becomes available, we begin implementation, but stick to the idea/plan long term. But with the political division and local aspects of Irish society, we end up with an irresponsible approach. Why? Because Irish society is car focused and rail is treated as a form of social justice for a particular area. Now don't get me wrong. Roads have a vital role to play. But as a nation we fail to see the importance of providing rail alternatives, where absolutely justified. IMO rail transport projects have suffered because during the Celtic Tiger years, every nutjob came out of the woodwork with some bonkers idea. (Lots of examples, but one that I was told about in a phonecall, was a LR connection to Loughrea from Attymon!) What was required at that point was a stable and workable list. But what actually happened was that "local interests" got hold of TDs and off we went on a voyage to no mans land. A free for all when we had money, that now looks like a blueprint to burn money.

DU is suffering because of this. It's a huge project that is beyond the comprehension of a lot of politicians. (Because we don't do BIG rail projects in Ireland) and if Dublin gets DU or MN, some back water wants its pound of flesh via restoration of rail lines. Remember I mentioned social justice? Think Donegal and Galway/Mayo. Lots of shouting from those parts over the years.

Luas out to an airport that will likely handle 35-40 million by the time the thing actually opens... LOL! A luas that stops every 2 seconds... When I want to get to the airport, time is critical. Hence I paid for a taxi from Dundrum to the airport this morning... I would really like to be able to take reasonable cost, efficient public transport to the airport. Looks like Ill be waiting another while :rolleyes:

Whatever is built should be able to support massive amounts of primarily housing, but also commercial and industrial development within a reasonable radius of stops...

The next bit of the N11 is due to open shortly. I know there are one or two big motorway projects looming, but after these, that is pretty much the massive expensive roads done, we have an excellent network and the vast majority of it wont require upgrading for a considerable length of time. Next up should be rail, the starving of funding it gets, I find staggering in comparison to what is thrown into the road network...

If a decision is announced to go with luas, can it be appealed?

monument wrote: »

This seems like a big mistake given that the Dart project is ready to go and has one of the best cost benefit ratio around and would have far-reaching benefits.

Couldn't agree more.

A Luas-based solution to the airport is not sufficient - nor is BRT. The latter is completely incompatible with Dublin in my view when compared to the other options available and the way it's been done in other cities. It'll be a botch job.

Yes, it's cheaper - but it will cause extensive disruption and has been badly designed from what I can see. Too many traffic lights (although I'll grant FCC one thing - they're not as obsessed with pedestrian lights as DCC and as such there are fewer of them in the way between Santry and Swords).

DU will be almost entirely underground or off-road and cause little to no traffic disruption as well as providing a massively-needed link to the heavy rail system. If done properly a spur to the airport would become even more attractive and that in itself is a very cheap option and could be phased in during the works.

As for mass transit serving the Swords corridor (as distinct to the airport) MN as originally planned works.

If only two can happen, leave out the airport HR spur, but in my opinion all three of these projects need to go ahead.

It is my understanding that the minister has the power to extend the railway order for several months. No doubt he'll push it past the next election.

cgcsb wrote: »

Me neither, but doesn't he normally have the power to extend railway orders? Politically speaking he'd be a fool not to envoke this power, can kicking can be a useful skill in politics.

I read the Order, The high specifically stated the minister could not extend it and that a decision as to whether it was going ahead or not had to taken by september this year or the order would lapse and landowners where therefor free to do as they wish with the building that might have been affected or required

BoatMad wrote: »

I read the Order, The high specifically stated the minister could not extend it and that a decision as to whether it was going ahead or not had to taken by september this year or the order would lapse and landowners where therefor free to do as they wish with the building that might have been affected or required

ooo goody. It's a hard sell to not go ahead with DARTu at this stage.

I suppose one of the things keeping DU on the table is IE's persistence with their Dart Airport Spur notion. Realistically, this cannot go ahead without DU. But a part of me wonders whether the spur will be built before DU (if the latter is built at all), then being shoehorned into Connolly/Docklands signalling.

So, Luas D2 (Airport from Cabra), Dart Spur, and no Dart Undergound. Anybody taking bets?!

Btw, fyi: http://castleviewresidents.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Luas-D2-January-2015.pdf <-- This is being taken very seriously by RPA. Metro North is dead dead dead. Sorry to all those Northsiders who paid MN Development Levies to Dublin City Council

Aard wrote: »

I suppose one of the things keeping DU on the table is IE's persistence with their Dart Airport Spur notion. Realistically, this cannot go ahead without DU. But a part of me wonders whether the spur will be built before DU (if the latter is built at all), then being shoehorned into Connolly/Docklands signalling.

So, Luas D2 (Airport from Cabra), Dart Spur, and no Dart Undergound. Anybody taking bets?!

Btw, fyi: http://castleviewresidents.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Luas-D2-January-2015.pdf <-- This is being taken very seriously by RPA. Metro North is dead dead dead. Sorry to all those Northsiders who paid MN Development Levies to Dublin City Council

personally , there should have been a simple heavy rail spur from the Connolly line a decade or more ago, The signalling and connolly approach issues are all solvable , its not like its Euston.

Now I would support an express style LUAS solution as being a better fit and integrating into the existing and increasingly extensive LUAS system

Aard wrote: »

You mean.... Metro North?

on the street , yes , I mean it all looks the same anyway

Aard wrote: »

I was just referring to MN essentially being Luas Underground.

In fairness, on-street running in central medians should allow for higher speeds

the LUAs airport is recombining nearly 70% segregation and running speeds to 70Kph. getting close to an underground

overall-strategy-driven process

huh, we dont do Overall anything .

cgcsb wrote: »

The luas option isn't actually the worst, it serves a lot of the areas MN promised to. The Three big falls are:

1) A people mover to airport terminals is a bodge
2) No interchange with the Maynooth line despite passing right over it. A hangable offence in the rest of Europe
3) A journey time Swords-Stephen's Green at least 15 mins longer than metro north would offer

1. well that a fail in a lot of airports .

2. can always be added later

3. 15 mins, whop de do.

Agreed cgcsb. On-street running in town will make tge airport run extra tedious.

The people mover is the worst decision ever. It doesn't tie in with the proposed Dart airport spur either.

Aard wrote: »

Agreed cgcsb. On-street running in town will make tge airport run extra tedious.

The people mover is the worst decision ever. It doesn't tie in with the proposed Dart airport spur either.

no point having dart spur and luas. at this stage given the popularity of LUAS , I think it has a better chance of succeeding

The advantage to the airport is not time saved per say, tram is seen as a more easier to understand , direct and comfortable mode of transport over buses.

syklops wrote: »

Well thats a big comfort to John C Commuter isn't it?

it means that a future upgrade in connectivity is entirely possible.

my own view is that a proper interchange platform should have been built, not the issue of connected lines

BoatMad wrote: »

Typically we dont " do" it at all. Anything is better then nothing

yes we generally have done piecemeal rubbish in the past, no reason to continue.

BoatMad wrote: »

actually the two lines are connected by engineering tracks, this could be upgraded in future

No they are not. They will be in 2018, 14 years late.

BoatMad wrote: »

personally a thing few would want to interchange with the Maynooth line, most would be heading for the major terminus is they want access to heavy rail

That's just daft, shure let's not have the two luases interchange.

cgcsb wrote: »

yes we generally have done piecemeal rubbish in the past, no reason to continue.



No they are not. They will be in 2018, 14 years late.



That's just daft, shure let's not have the two luases interchange.

The lines are connected by engineering tracks onto abbey street - see maps from the RPA

In reality commuter lines do not interchange at rail level, london underground for example is a series of individual lines with interconnecting stations

whats missing from BXD is a proper interchange platform with red line

cgcsb wrote: »

Go down to Abbey street so and have a look for yourself. The Green line terminates in Stephen's Green, the connection to the red line won't exist until 2018


....I am aware of that. What I am concerned about is there is no interchange planned between the Maynooth line and this proposed Airport Luas

the cross city project is only to be completed by end of 2017 , so yes it will exist in 2018

as for maynooth interchange, as I said easier enough to add later