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Use modern or Old Irish for names of ancient figures?

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  • 22-01-2015 8:45pm
    #1
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭


    What considerations are necessary when writing and pronouncing the names of Irish kings and figures from different periods of history?

    Is it a standard approach to use Old Irish pronunciation and writing for figures from that time period? Or is it acceptable to use the modern Irish equivalents in academic discourse? For example, can 'Brian Boru' or 'Brian Bóruma' be used interchangeably?
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    #2
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    ireland.man wrote: »
    What considerations are necessary when writing and pronouncing the names of Irish kings and figures from different periods of history?

    Is it a standard approach to use Old Irish pronunciation and writing for figures from that time period? Or is it acceptable to use the modern Irish equivalents in academic discourse? For example, can 'Brian Boru' or 'Brian Bóruma' be used interchangeably?

    Generally people working in the area (eg. writing and publishing) use the relevant standard for the time period. So for example

    Áed (Old Irish) vs. Aodh (Modern Irish -- Aoḋ with overdot)

    Likewise we talk about:
    Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair as oppose to Ruairí Ó Conchobhair

    In Old Irish and into Middle Irish word internal lenition (eg. -dh- -gh- -bh-) isn't usually denoted by either the presence of a "h" or an overdot. Instead they were just written as -d- -g- -b- etc.

    It's only really with changes in written standard from late 12th century (Early Modern Irish) that lenition word-internally was marked by default.

    As a parallel think of Roman names, we tend to keep these in Latin as oppose to say Modern Italian.


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    #3
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Generally people working in the area (eg. writing and publishing) use the relevant standard for the time period. So for example

    Áed (Old Irish) vs. Aodh (Modern Irish -- Aoḋ with overdot)

    Likewise we talk about:
    Ruaidrí Ua Conchobair as oppose to Ruairí Ó Conchobhair

    In Old Irish and into Middle Irish word internal lenition (eg. -dh- -gh- -bh-) isn't usually denoted by either the presence of a "h" or an overdot. Instead they were just written as -d- -g- -b- etc.

    It's only really with changes in written standard from late 12th century (Early Modern Irish) that lenition word-internally was marked by default.

    As a parallel think of Roman names, we tend to keep these in Latin as oppose to say Modern Italian.

    Very informative reply, thank you!

    Do you know if finding the pronunciations of Old Irish names is difficult? I wanted to use the original pronunciations of early kings (Old and Middle Irish) but I'm finding it difficult to find agreement on the names and any hints on how to pronounce them (Brian Boru versus Brian Boruma).

    Thanks again!


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    #4
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    ireland.man wrote: »
    Very informative reply, thank you!

    Do you know if finding the pronunciations of Old Irish names is difficult? I wanted to use the original pronunciations of early kings (Old and Middle Irish) but I'm finding it difficult to find agreement on the names and any hints on how to pronounce them (Brian Boru versus Brian Boruma).

    Thanks again!

    Well generally people use modern Irish prononunciation. I should caution "Brian Boru" is an anglicisation, the correct modern Irish spelling is: Brian Bóroimhe

    Basically prononunced the same though see:
    http://www.forvo.com/word/brian_b%C3%B3irmhe/

    In general part of reason for using modern prononuncation is that Old/Middle Irish for example has at least two sounds that are no longer found in modern Irish. Namely, th (word internal -t-) and -dh- (word internal -d-)

    th -> θ ("th" sound in english "this")
    dh -> ð ("th" sound in english "that")

    These sounds were lost in Irish by 1200, in case -th- was reduced to /h/ sound whereas dh merged with gh (slender: /j/ -- broad: /ɣ/ )

    Likewise you see the lost of word internal -dh-/-gh- in modern irish compare:
    Laoghaire -> Laoire
    Ruaidhrí -> Ruairí
    Odhran -> Oran

    Aodh for example in old Irish was spelt as Áed, in old Irish this is prononuced as: [ˈaið]

    In modern Irish it's prononunced as either [e:] (é) in Munster or as [i:] (í) in Ulster and Connacht.


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    #5
    ireland.man
    Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭ireland.man


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Well generally people use modern Irish prononunciation. I should caution "Brian Boru" is an anglicisation, the correct modern Irish spelling is: Brian Bóroimhe

    Basically prononunced the same though see:
    http://www.forvo.com/word/brian_b%C3%B3irmhe/

    In general part of reason for using modern prononuncation is that Old/Middle Irish for example has at least two sounds that are no longer found in modern Irish. Namely, th (word internal -t-) and -dh- (word internal -d-)

    th -> θ ("th" sound in english "this")
    dh -> ð ("th" sound in english "that")

    These sounds were lost in Irish by 1200, in case -th- was reduced to /h/ sound whereas dh merged with gh (slender: /j/ -- broad: /ɣ/ )

    Likewise you see the lost of word internal -dh-/-gh- in modern irish compare:
    Laoghaire -> Laoire
    Ruaidhrí -> Ruairí
    Odhran -> Oran

    Aodh for example in old Irish was spelt as Áed, in old Irish this is prononuced as: [ˈaið]

    In modern Irish it's prononunced as either [e:] (é) in Munster or as [i:] (í) in Ulster and Connacht.

    Thanks, it's much clearer now.


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    #6
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    To give an example, here's a page from "Early Christian Ireland" covering the rise of the Uí Néill for example you'll see:

    ui_neill_02.jpeg

    Domnall (Old Irish) -> Domhnall/Doṁnall (early modern irish) --> Dónall (reformed spelling)

    Éogan -> Eoghan/Eoġan (this name is conflated with Eoin which is actually a borrowing of name "John")

    Níall -> Niall (which most people in Ireland do not use irish prononunciation for -- hint is in í in old.irish version)

    Lóegaire -> Laoghaire/Laoġaire -> Laoire (reformed spelling)


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    #7
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    ireland.man wrote: »
    What considerations are necessary when writing and pronouncing the names of Irish kings and figures from different periods of history?

    Is it a standard approach to use Old Irish pronunciation and writing for figures from that time period? Or is it acceptable to use the modern Irish equivalents in academic discourse? For example, can 'Brian Boru' or 'Brian Bóruma' be used interchangeably?

    I'd be inclined to use the modern Irish version where possible, indicating somewhere in the text or index the old name (I follow the same "standardisation" pattern for English language names). I note for early modern figures, Oxford's DNB tends to use the modern Irish spelling in its English texts - e.g. Eoghan Rua Ó Súilleabháin, Seán Clarach Mac Dónaill, etc.


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