What if Assad is telling the truth?

BlaasForRafa · 24-06-2012 5:01am

AlekSmart wrote: »

As somebody who watched the news footage of U.S F4 Phantom's operating over Vietnam and other area's of American influence I'm somewhat intrigued to note Turkey's continued use of the Aircraft.

That backward country Germany still has a wing of Phantoms in service

nato%206%201%2010%20German%20F4%20Phantom.preview.jpg

As do several other countries.

If an design still fulfills a role and is well maintained it can last for many decades. The USA is still using B-52s that were built in the early 1960's. The Chinese are still using the Xian H6, a licensed version of the Soviet Tupolev Tu-16, a design from the early 1950's, the Russians themselves are still using the spectacular Tupolev Tu-95 bear, a mid-50's design. If it works, it works.

Interesting also to note the Israeli input into the issue....

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?175673-Turkey-accepts-first-Aselsan-modified-F-4E-Phantom.

It's a funny old world.

Israeli companies upgraded Turkish airplanes and armoured vehicles over the years until recently, I'm not sure what point you are making.

Eggy Baby! · 24-06-2012 12:21pm

If an design still fulfills a role and is well maintained it can last for many decades. The USA is still using B-52s that were built in the early 1960's. The Chinese are still using the Xian H6, a licensed version of the Soviet Tupolev Tu-16, a design from the early 1950's, the Russians themselves are still using the spectacular Tupolev Tu-95 bear, a mid-50's design. If it works, it works.

Spot on. American special forces on occasion use the M1911. This pistol was around during WW1! Until recently the main machinegun of the US Army was a Browning from WW1 also.

American forces have been documented picking up insurgent AK47s for use in urban combat too. The Russian AK74M main assault rifle is a lower calibre, more modern and more accurate version of the AK47 although it shares the same design characteristics. If you look at most Russian assault rifles they seem to share DNA with the AK47 (the AN94, AK100 series and AEK971 come to mind).

The A10 Warthog, a "tank-buster" and an icon of US air supremacy in the First and Second Gulf Wars, has actually been around for decades. The M1A1 Abrams is three decades old (but has gone through an upgrade, the M1A2) however the older M1A1 is the most common by far. The Russians still use the exceptional T72 tank is large numbers.

I could go on but you all get the picture

Suff · 26-06-2012 12:30pm

This Turkish plane incident is just another piece in this chess game...

Sending a warplane to fly over Syria's air place (during the rising tension between the two countries) is not as straightforward and innocent as Turkey is trying to make it out to be... there was something to be achieved by this. The next few days, weeks will deliver the results of such stunt.

However, I am annoyed at the reaction to this plane incident; everyone quickly jumped to criticise Syria's action, which I believe was in self-defense, logical and acceptable, since the turkish war plane did invade the Syrian airspace. While on the other hand, Turkey's ongoing daily bombardment of the kurdish northern boarders of Iraq goes without any objection or a word of condemnation from international community. And what of Israel's monthly flights over the southern Lebanese boarders? ...again nothing. No, I'm not ranting about Israel here, such topic would require a lifetime.

It seems to me that the media along with the international community loves having a villain, for them to play the role of the decent nobel.

This year's villain: Syria.

Sponge Bob · 26-06-2012 12:35pm

The plane in question was most likely probing Syrias air defences and likely as a proxy for determining whether the military still controlled them.

They would have had an oooopps moment that did not last very long.

Suff · 26-06-2012 3:30pm

Link

Mr Erdogan also said Turkey was totally in the right over Syria's shooting down of a Turkish plane and that Ankara's rational response to the incident should not be mistaken for weakness.

"Everybody should know that Turkey's wrath is just as strong and devastating," Mr Erdogan said in a speech to his ruling AK Party deputies in parliament.The army's rules of engagement along the two countries' border had now changed, he said.

"Every military element approaching Turkey from the Syrian border and representing a security risk and danger will be assessed as a military threat and will be treated as a military target," he said.

Turkey can do that but apparently it is unacceptable for Syria to apply the same!?

Sponge Bob · 26-06-2012 4:00pm

Sounds like the Turks have designated a NO FLY zone in northern Syria so.

cyberhog · 27-06-2012 6:00am

Erdogan's bellicose rhetoric is just a piece of political theatre. Turkey isn't going to risk doing anything that would invite retaliation.

His Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said Turkey: “must remain calm and collected,” “We must not give premium to any provocative speeches and acts.”

cyberhog · 29-06-2012 2:27am

The latest word from the UN investigation into the Houla massacre is it is currently unable to determine the identity of the perpetrators.

Killers in Syrian massacre remain a mystery

A special commission of inquiry reported Wednesday to the U.N. Human Rights Council that it could not rule out either side as the potential perpetrators of the crimes. Nor could it eliminate a third possibility: that the killers were “foreign groups with unknown affiliation.”

The U.N.-commissioned inquiry was exhaustive, but it suffered a major shortcoming: Investigators were not allowed to enter Syria, much less visit Houla. Instead, they relied on interviews conducted via telephone or Skype; some face-to-face interviews with people who had left the country; and sundry documentation, including photos and video of the scene and satellite images from before and after the killings.

JustinDee · 29-06-2012 3:09pm

"The U.N.-commissioned inquiry was exhaustive, but it suffered a major shortcoming: Investigators were not allowed to enter Syria, much less visit Houla"
- So it was a investigation-by-proxy then. Is that really enough to draw safe conclusions with? Particularly with no entry to the country, not even the area, permitted. Not in the slightest. All it does is fuel speculation and smudge grey areas greyer.

Mervyn Crawford · 29-06-2012 3:53pm

Might I please refer again to to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung
and it's pieces on the Houla massacre:

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/houl-j16.shtml

To discuss the events in Syria without discussing the eruption of American militarism and the world economic crisis is in itself to take a definite political position.

A plague on both your houses approach covers the truth.

If the Syrian regime reports honestly then that is because it is under attack by Imperialism and it's proxies in Turkey, Saudia Arabia and Quatar.

Similarly the role of the Russian state. As the aim of Washington is to impose its own client regimes in Syria and Iran, and thus close the circle ever tighter on the Russian Federation and China. Because the Imperialists are the aggressors both Damascus and Moscow can take the moral high ground

However, establishing that bourgeois nationalists of Syria and the former Stalinists of Russia and China are profoundly cynical does not mean therfore that Imperialism is not on the offensive.

It patently is. And threatens world war if left unchecked.

plasmaguy · 30-06-2012 1:57am

JustinDee wrote: »

"The U.N.-commissioned inquiry was exhaustive, but it suffered a major shortcoming: Investigators were not allowed to enter Syria, much less visit Houla"
- So it was a investigation-by-proxy then. Is that really enough to draw safe conclusions with? Particularly with no entry to the country, not even the area, permitted. Not in the slightest. All it does is fuel speculation and smudge grey areas greyer.

What it is safe to draw conclusions from is that the Syrian government blatently had something to hide as if they had nothing to hide and were sure this was committed by the FSA, then they would be tripping over themselves to invite in these investigators to carry out a full and thorough investigation.

If such an investigation did prove it was carried out by the FSA, the Syrian government would be handed a massive propaganda coup which might have turned the entire conflict in their favour. Instead they had no interest in inviting in international investigators to carry out a thorough investigation. I wonder why? Something to hide perhaps?

Suff · 30-06-2012 11:40am

plasmaguy wrote: »

If such an investigation did prove it was carried out by the FSA, the Syrian government would be handed a massive propaganda coup which might have turned the entire conflict in their favour. Instead they had no interest in inviting in international investigators to carry out a thorough investigation. I wonder why? Something to hide perhaps?

Not defending them, but I doubt they're interested in correcting the media on 'one' story, there are more serious issues to be dealt with.

plasmaguy · 30-06-2012 2:39pm

Suff wrote: »

Not defending them, but I doubt they're interested in correcting the media on 'one' story, there are more serious issues to be dealt with.

But this is the fundamental problem with the Syrian government and why people are calling for its downfall. It's not interested in accountability. It doesn't have a proper justice system, only courts packed with Assad cronies. The army is controlled by the Alwite's and is used to murder innocent civilians. The Syrian press is not free but just a mouthpiece for Assad. There is no proper democracy. There is no human rights. If you oppose the government on anything you can be locked up and tortured indefinately.

The entire country is rotten to the core, hence the uprising. It's easy for someone like you to sit in a western country and preach to Syrian people that they should just accept their fate under the cancerous Assad regime but its not so easy to live there for the reasons I stated above.

Some people on here paint Syria as an idyl before the Arab Spring when it was completely the opposite for the reasons I stated. It's not a proper country, it's one big prison with Assad and fellow thugs as the jailers.

Mervyn Crawford · 01-07-2012 11:37am

Claims concerning the true nature of rule in Syria ring hollow when the implication is that 'we' in the West live under the rule of law.

Change a few proper names and types of groups in plasmaguy's comment on Syrian oppression and you could be talking abouit the United States.

Lavrov's machinations and threats from Moascow and Beijing will not halt the imperialist assault. There will be no 'peace in our time' until socialism is established. And that is the last thing that Putin et al want.

Suff · 01-07-2012 12:13pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

It's easy for someone like you to sit in a western country and preach to Syrian people that they should just accept their fate under the cancerous Assad regime but its not so easy to live there for the reasons I stated above.

Some people on here paint Syria as an idyl before the Arab Spring when it was completely the opposite for the reasons I stated. It's not a proper country, it's one big prison with Assad and fellow thugs as the jailers.

Clearly, you haven't been reading my posts, but anyway, the same could be said for your rants, its easy to sit behind a keyboard and rally on the violence. Please do not make further claims or prejudgments over my life, you don't know me and clearly you don't know anything about Syria. You've probably discovered it after watching some of the recent documentaries on the conflict.

Black Swan · 01-07-2012 12:40pm

MOD REMINDER:
Please be advised that a couple posters are getting a bit too personal in their replies; i.e., play the ball, not the man.

Suff · 03-07-2012 10:53am

Another friend of mine got Kidnapped by the government forces.
Just hate the thought of her at one of the torture centres... I pray she get released soon.

Suff · 03-07-2012 4:33pm

Her name is Farah Presley link

plasmaguy · 03-07-2012 8:19pm

Hopefully she gets released soon, keep us all posted.

Unfortunately this conflict is going to drag on and on and no-one is really serious about stopping it.

Kofi Annan is just a joke, no-one takes him seriously and he was the last person who should have been allowed to mediate given his record of failure in preventing mass murder in the past, I think that's the reason Assad was so in favour of him in the first place.

The US doesn't want to know about Syria nor does Europe. The Russians make noises about wanting peace but sending attack helicopters to Assad tells us they want different. They are committed to keeping Assad in power in a way the US are committed to their ally Israel. So the Russians won't bring peace either. The FSA are certainly not going to lay down their arms while Assad is in power. And Assad is not going to go away peacefully, there's zero chance of that happening.

Realistically this conflict/civil war is going to drag on for years and perhaps even decades with the FSA in control of the north-east and Assad forces in control of the south west. Human rights abuses, torture, kidnapping and so on will go on for years with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands dying given the lack of a credible peace plan and given Russia's unwavering support to the end for Assad.

cyberhog · 04-07-2012 2:14am

Suff wrote: »

Just hate the thought of her at one of the torture centres... I pray she get released soon.

As far as I can see HRW don't have any real evidence to back up the report and it is in fact based soley on hearsay from alleged victims of the abuse.

The group conducted more than 200 interviews with people who said they were tortured,

They call the report "Syria: Torture Centers Revealed" even though they have not received any independent confirmation of the existence of those centres. I don't doubt Syrian forces have engaged in torture but I also don't give much credence to the dubious sources that HRW have relied on for their report. IMO the report is not worth the paper it's written on.

The UN says both sides are carrying out serious rights violations.

Pillay put the blame on both sides and said the government had committed numerous violations.

“Indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas, targeted killings of activists and opposition supporters, arbitrary detentions, torture and rape as well as attacks on hospitals and clinics, and using health facilities for military operations,” she said.

Pillay also detailed violations by the opposition. “The violations on part of opposition forces include killings of suspected government informers and perceived collaborators; the increasing use of improvised explosive devices causing civilian deaths and injuries. And we have credible reports that indicate that armed groups have also taken over at least one medical facility for military purposes,” she said.

http://www.middleeastvoices.com/2012/07/un-blames-both-sides-in-syria-conflict-for-serious-abuses-45704/

Run_to_da_hills · 04-07-2012 10:30pm

I don't normally quote Alex Jones on an article but some of the videos speak for themselves in this report.

"Despite the fact that parties on both sides of the conflict in Syria have been responsible for violence, the international NATO-aligned media has hyped often dubious accusations of Assad-sponsored massacres while virtually ignoring massacres, beheadings and other acts of brutality carried out by rebel insurgents".

http://www.infowars.com/shocking-videos-reveal-truth-behind-syrian-freedom-fighters/

Suff · 04-07-2012 10:49pm

Just got word from Damascus, my friend is released and she's well

Suff · 05-07-2012 3:46pm

Today, Thursday 5 July 2012, WikiLeaks began publishing the Syria Files – more than two million emails from Syrian political figures, ministries and associated companies, dating from August 2006 to March 2012.

"The material is embarrassing to Syria, but it is also embarrassing to Syria’s opponents. It helps us not merely to criticise one group or another, but to understand their interests, actions and thoughts. It is only through understanding this conflict that we can hope to resolve it," Assange said.

I'll be busy downloading them tonight!

plasmaguy · 14-07-2012 8:53pm

An update on this if anyone is interested.

http://warincontext.org/2012/06/10/reconsidering-the-houla-massacre/

The victims of the Houla massacre including the Razzak family were Sunni and not alwite/shia or government supporters as some have tried to claim.

Human Rights Watch confirmed to me that the Abdel Razzak family are indeed Sunnis and that after the massacre those members of the family who survived sought the protection of the Free Syrian Army.

Mervyn Crawford · 15-07-2012 9:11pm

Yes do read the comments that plasmaguy has linked to above.
They don't actually confirm his claims.

The assaults launched by western imperialists in Libya and Syria are a means to forestall the spread of the revolution in the Arab speaking world; and indeed the whole world.

Sierra Oscar · 16-07-2012 12:48am

The silence from the international community in regards the Syrian conflict is becoming ever more deafening. It looks like we are in for a long and drawn out civil war.

Mervyn Crawford · 16-07-2012 2:15am

What silence?
There is no let-up on Syria.

The vile onslaught on the Syrian people is in direct correlation to the pressure from below by the masses, worldwide, in response to the capitalist breakdown.
It doesn't take much wit to instigate a dirty war, especially with the resources of the state at your disposal.
The fundamentalist/nationalist reactionaries are the natural allies of imperilaism.

poeticseraphim · 16-07-2012 4:34am

The thing is this ...the world has yet to grasp that there is no common ground between the rebels and the Govt regime.

Their differences are irreconcilible and it is to them a fight to the death.

They block certain sites on the net. Human rights activists are tortured and harassed.

And it is part of the wider Arab spring uprising.

And the outside world helped put Assad in power in the begining. There is no life there the state bans other parties controls the internet and the media.

It has been abusing human rights for a while.

They see this as a fight for life and to be honest there maybe no common ground for some of the groups.

They need to settle on a common ideology . If possible.

Jonny7 · 16-07-2012 11:17am

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

The assaults launched by western imperialists in Libya and Syria are a means to forestall the spread of the revolution in the Arab speaking world; and indeed the whole world.

How?

Mervyn Crawford · 17-07-2012 7:43am

The Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions are a profound danger to Imperialism and their local client bourgeoisie.
Instigating tribal/sectarian savagery is the time-hounoured method of the ruling class to attempt to sabotage revolutionary development.

Read the article linked here.

A revealing exposé of the US assets leading the Syrian opposition:

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/jul2012/guar-j17.shtml

Jonny7 · 17-07-2012 9:04am

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

The Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions are a profound danger to Imperialism and their local client bourgeoisie.
Instigating tribal/sectarian savagery is the time-hounoured method of the ruling class to attempt to sabotage revolutionary development.

Which is why the major powers supported the protesters?

Read the article linked here.

A revealing exposé of the US assets leading the Syrian opposition:

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/jul2012/guar-j17.shtml

How is that article revealing or even true?

Eggy Baby! · 17-07-2012 4:35pm

How is that article revealing or even true?

I'd love to believe it is, but it's not really :P

Mervyn Crawford · 18-07-2012 3:12pm

The savage attacks by agents of Imperialism take place for definite reason and in a definite context.

New strike waves are spreading in Egypt (http://wsws.org/articles/2012/jul2012/egyp-j18.shtml)
Social protest against poverty and ineqaulity continue in Israel;
The Greek working class battles with the state and is betrayed by the so-called 'Lefts' of Syrzia. Turkey itself is not cut off from the world economic crisis, and the machinations of the Turkish government are also designed to deflect potential mass opposition.

Suff · 19-07-2012 11:50am

NATO death squads involved in Syria bombing: American author - link

Although its very pro-Assad, they do put some interesting points cross.

Jonny7 · 19-07-2012 12:14pm

Suff wrote: »

NATO death squads involved in Syria bombing: American author - link

Although its very pro-Assad, they do put some interesting points cross.

It's complete garbage straight from Tehran.

Very surprised you are even reading it?

Suff · 19-07-2012 10:24pm

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's complete garbage straight from Tehran.

Very surprised you are even reading it?

I have to read and address every view out there, otherwise we're back at square one!

Last night had intense fighting, it was unreal to comprehend that such events would occur in Damascus. I was up all night talking to friends and family on Facebook and following the events. Thankfully, today is calm and many people did manage to get out to buy few things in order to prepare for the month of Ramadan - tomorrow is the first day of fasting.

What if Assad is telling the truth?

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