Goodbye Free Water Today's The Last Day

Bog Standard User · 30-09-2014 12:34pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I will miss having a beer sitting in my kids paddling pool on a hot summers evening

you still can... its ireland remember it pisses rain alot here just leave the paddling pool out when it rains :P

Barely There · 30-09-2014 12:37pm

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Not 1 cent is going to be going on making these things better it is going to pay off the bankers debt.

Yawn.

paulbok · 30-09-2014 12:40pm

ryanf1 wrote: »

Im not totally opposed to water charges but I think the free allowance should be substantially higher, more lie a per person allowance.
Theres 4 of us here so we will use 30,000 litres a hell of a lot quicker than a house with 1 or 2 residents.

Yes, which is what I thought the need for the pps numbers was for originally. Claim for 4 people in a house, provide the pps number for each to prove it and get the allowance per person.

bladespin · 30-09-2014 12:40pm

Barely There wrote: »

Yawn.

Maybe right, but I'd speculate the taxes that used to fund it will probably be diverted over.

Satriale · 30-09-2014 12:40pm

In fact general taxation still does still pay for water. What the new charge for is so you can have useful lads like this on the payroll? You can get this kind of quality for a song!

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/minister-uses-director-at-irish-water-as-his-personal-driver-30625980.html

Director of Irish Water Hilary Quinlan told the Irish Times:
“You tell me one party out there who doesn’t look after their own. I don’t see anything wrong with it. It’s politics.” He asked why there isn’t more of a focus on the economy. “We were all nearly eating out of bins three years ago.”

Egginacup · 30-09-2014 12:41pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Water treatment/supply was covered out of general taxation previously (presumably rates before that, before some genius decided as a politicial stroke to abolish them)

Overall the country isn't taking in enough in taxes to cover what we spend (and that's putting it mildly). So we have to dream up new taxes. These water charges were never intended to replace the costs of water supply which were covered by general taxation, they were intended to supplement them.

Plus, the Troika insisted on it.

So essentially then the starve the beast method of economics is at play whereby when the IMF thinks a country's economy is doing well they step in and help bankrupt the place and then convince the smellies that they have to pay more taxes to pay the bill.

MadYaker · 30-09-2014 12:43pm

Egginacup wrote: »

So essentially then the starve the beast method of economics is at play whereby when the IMF thinks a country's economy is doing well they step in and help bankrupt the place and then convince the smellies that they have to pay more taxes to pay the bill.

What????

Egginacup · 30-09-2014 12:44pm

MadYaker wrote: »

*Sigh*

Up until now water was paid for from our taxes. But a few years ago we had some economic difficulty and ended up borrowing huge amounts of money to keep our country running. This money has to be repaid somehow which means more taxes. This is what the water charges and property taxes and everything other tax that as been brought in is for. The government is telling us that the money will be used to improve water services and infrastructure and it will eventually, once our debts have been paid off, which won't be for a while I'm afraid (they aren't so fond of mentioning that part...)

There is another purpose to these new taxes as well, we need to widen our tax base and introduce taxes that don't fluctuate so much with economic performance like VAT and stamp duty etc to prevent government revenue fluctuating so much like it did after the crash causing huge budget defecits, like we have now.

That's why I am in favour of property and water charges, and will be paying them, they could have been implemented better though.

So.....like income taxes that were introduced as a "temporary" measure to pay for World War 1, these water charges are a temporary charge that will be scrapped once the debts have been paid?

endacl · 30-09-2014 12:45pm

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Be better off living in a caravan at the side of the road nowadays

Really? :rolleyes:

HeidiHeidi · 30-09-2014 12:48pm

Egginacup wrote: »

So.....like income taxes that were introduced as a "temporary" measure to pay for World War 1, these water charges are a temporary charge that will be scrapped once the debts have been paid?

No, because going back to what we did before doesn't make much sense seeing as how it failed so spectacularly.

We need more taxes if we're to support the services we demand and have become used to.

You/we can either pay more tax or have less services provided by the state.

jamesbere · 30-09-2014 12:48pm

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Be better off living in a caravan at the side of the road nowadays

That's right boss, great life boss.

HeidiHeidi · 30-09-2014 12:49pm

Egginacup wrote: »

So essentially then the starve the beast method of economics is at play whereby when the IMF thinks a country's economy is doing well they step in and help bankrupt the place and then convince the smellies that they have to pay more taxes to pay the bill.

What???

MadYaker · 30-09-2014 12:51pm

Jesus, I thought everybody understood how basic economics works..... I guess I was wrong.

foggy_lad · 30-09-2014 12:53pm

dobsdave wrote: »

You'll be charged based on use, up to the cap.
So for the next nine months, there will be a max charge no matter how much you use.

And a rebate if you use less. but it does not say if they give the rebate automatically or if you have to go begging for it.

Also having an extra 21000litres for children is a good thing but having only a 30000litre allowance per household is discriminating against people who do not live alone! I get the full 30000litres allowance but my sister gets the same for a house with 8 people living in it. The 30000litre allowance should be per person with an extra 21000litres for children!

endacl · 30-09-2014 12:55pm

MadYaker wrote: »

Jesus, I thought everybody understood how basic economics works..... I guess I was wrong.

It doesn't matter what the topic is. Sooner or later you run up against the Dunning-Kruger effect....

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_effect

Never assume understanding! They don't even understand that they don't understand!

Putin · 30-09-2014 12:56pm

endacl wrote: »

Go on. Do it. Keep us updated!

Updated? Keep up ffs, here's no updating required. Nobody will be having their water supply cut off.

HeidiHeidi · 30-09-2014 12:56pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

And a rebate if you use less. but it does not say if they give the rebate automatically or if you have to go begging for it.

Also having an extra 21000litres for children is a good thing but having only a 30000litre allowance per household is discriminating against people who do not live alone! I get the full 30000litres allowance but my sister gets the same for a house with 8 people living in it. The 30000litre allowance should be per person with an extra 21000litres for children!

My understanding of this is that if you have a meter from day 1 (ie tomorrow) then you'll be billed for your usage up to a maximum of the assessed amount.

If you acquire a meter somewhere along the way (hopefully my scenario, no sign of one yet although I'm near to Dublin city centre) then if your usage proves to be less than the assessed amount, you'll be entitled to a rebate after 9 months (presumably to give them/you time to establish a pattern of use).

If you never get a meter (my big fear), tough ****, assessed amount forever.

In Lonesome Dove · 30-09-2014 12:58pm

MadYaker wrote: »

*Sigh*

Up until now water was paid for from our taxes. But a few years ago we had some economic difficulty and ended up borrowing huge amounts of money to keep our country running. This money has to be repaid somehow which means more taxes. This is what the water charges and property taxes and everything other tax that as been brought in is for. The government is telling us that the money will be used to improve water services and infrastructure and it will eventually, once our debts have been paid off, which won't be for a while I'm afraid (they aren't so fond of mentioning that part...)

There is another purpose to these new taxes as well, we need to widen our tax base and introduce taxes that don't fluctuate so much with economic performance like VAT and stamp duty etc to prevent government revenue fluctuating so much like it did after the crash causing huge budget defecits, like we have now.

That's why I am in favour of property and water charges, and will be paying them, they could have been implemented better though.

If you take our nearest neighbour the UK as an example, it appears they have many ingredients for a healthy enconmy things like lower wages and lower social welfare to encourage employment. A broadened tax base with a council tax and water charges too. Even with these, they have much problems similar to ours - high unemployment, deficit, debt.

We could have followed the UK's footsteps during the boom and widened the tax base to include water and property taxes but we would still be where we are today - with unemployment, deficit and debt.

These water charges are coming to bridge the deficit. The problem is running so much more deeper though. It's down to boom and bust cycles and the way money is made lending it out with debt.

HeidiHeidi · 30-09-2014 1:00pm

Also, I wish people would stop banging on about "I can never give my grandkids a bath again", "I'll never be able to wash the car again" "what about my swimming pool???" (OK, I haven't actually heard the last one yet, but there's today's Liveline to go) etc etc etc.

NOBODY IS STOPPING YOU DOING THESE THINGS.

You'll just have to pay for them. They'll turn into the luxuries they always should have been.

cocoman · 30-09-2014 1:02pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

If you never get a meter (my big fear), tough ****, assessed amount forever.

Ya but think of all the water you'll be able to use and all the water you'll be able to bottle and sell to those whose supply will be reduced to a trickle

Joe Exotic · 30-09-2014 1:04pm

I love the way some people are complaining about the new water systems (Payment, organisation, etc.)being put in place.

Keeping on about how they shouldn't have to pay a cause they have a crap supply or cause there are loads of leaks.

I have not heard one of them talking about the reason we have rubbish water is the old system of paying from general taxtion was not working.

A lot of the time in this country we go around complaining about who did this and didn't do that but never get around to saying

'we are in this position now how will we deal with it'

There is no guarantee that IW will be the solution to the problem but at least now we have one body to look after it all, instead of loads of councils doing their own thing.

As for the overall taxation system LPT and Water rates are a good thing for an economy, they broaden the tax base and in good times allow people to work overtime to pay the flat rate tax.

otherwise the tax is all on your paye which will then punish overtime work.

Unfortunately this is a piss poor time to bring them in, but we have no choice
IIRC our overspend this year will be 7 Billion

HeidiHeidi · 30-09-2014 1:05pm

cocoman wrote: »

Ya but think of all the water you'll be able to use and all the water you'll be able to bottle and sell to those whose supply will be reduced to a trickle

I live on my own and am hardly ever home, and am very water-conscious anyway, always have been - I'm going to get sooo done it's not funny :mad:

Really pisses me off, but nothing I can do (that I can think of so far).

bladespin · 30-09-2014 1:05pm

HeidiHeidi wrote:

You'll just have to pay for them. They'll turn into the luxuries they always should have been.

Ah seriously, bathing your kids/grandchildren should not be classed as a luxury.

MadYaker · 30-09-2014 1:06pm

What's happening now with water charges should have been done 10 years ago.

HeidiHeidi · 30-09-2014 1:08pm

bladespin wrote: »

Ah seriously, bathing your kids/grandchildren should not be classed as a luxury.

I knew someone would pull me up on that

Cost of running a bath will be about 9c, I think I heard recently.

I'm sure the grand/parents will be able to manange it as a treat considering that's about 1/10 of the price of a bag of crisps.

(Apologies if I've got the 9c wrong, but it was definitely well below a euro)

SteM · 30-09-2014 1:09pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

My understanding of this is that if you have a meter from day 1 (ie tomorrow) then you'll be billed for your usage up to a maximum of the assessed amount.

If you acquire a meter somewhere along the way (hopefully my scenario, no sign of one yet although I'm near to Dublin city centre) then if your usage proves to be less than the assessed amount, you'll be entitled to a rebate after 9 months (presumably to give them/you time to establish a pattern of use).

If you never get a meter (my big fear), tough ****, assessed amount forever.

This is my problem with the whole scenario. I understand that water is something that myself and my family use every single day, I have no real problem paying for it. But I want to pay for what we use, not what people think we will be using.

BTW, I find it hilarious that people are complaining about water charges but just seemed to accept the USC without much argument. The USC is taking a lot more out of workers pockets every year than the water charge will.

Guy:Incognito · 30-09-2014 1:15pm

kryogen wrote: »

Your on an assessed charge, the same as everyone for 9 months anyway so go fecking mental for that 9 months, buy in big canisters, fill them all with water!

1000l of water is about a fiver. A 1000l tank is lots of fivers

dodderangler · 30-09-2014 1:17pm

Save money on water and shower with someone else or a group and make sure to post the pics

foggy_lad · 30-09-2014 1:25pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

My understanding of this is that if you have a meter from day 1 (ie tomorrow) then you'll be billed for your usage up to a maximum of the assessed amount.

If you acquire a meter somewhere along the way (hopefully my scenario, no sign of one yet although I'm near to Dublin city centre) then if your usage proves to be less than the assessed amount, you'll be entitled to a rebate after 9 months (presumably to give them/you time to establish a pattern of use).

If you never get a meter (my big fear), tough ****, assessed amount forever.

It looks like everybody will be paying an assessed charge until next July when those with meters will pay for the metered amount and those without meters will pay an average charge based on their household.

And the regulator, the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER), has also decided that all 1.35 million customers of Irish Water will pay an assessed or average charge for nine months after charges kick in from tomorrow.

The assessed charge - based on average consumption of households of similar size - will apply until next July, after which those with a meter installed will pay based on consumption.

This means that similarly-sized households will pay the same bill. A family of one adult will pay €176 a year for their drinking water and wastewater. Children will not be charged - each child will receive 21,000 litres of ‘free’ water per year, and the CER has promised to monitor usage of minors to ensure they do not incur a bill.

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-householders-who-fail-to-register-face-424-annual-water-charge-30625875.html#sthash.vOIQTVff.dpuf

Is the 30000litre household allowance a free allowance that we get to use before we are then charged for anything over that or is it that the yearly rate of €176 includes a free allowance of 30000litres?

JapaneseLove · 30-09-2014 1:30pm

Not2Good wrote: »

Enjoy the last day of free water. Years ago they always joked 'next they'll be charging you for water
..' then came Ballygowen and we started to pay for bottled water more expensive nearly than petrol and oil, now its tap water etc... what is next air?! Oh yes I believe in some other countries they charge for containers of fresh air

Well all i can say is that ide be sickened to be one of the thousands that have to pay for water. Fortunatly mine is free. Not so much as a red cent. Good luck with those water charges people.

JapaneseLove · 30-09-2014 1:31pm

dodderangler wrote: »

Save money on water and shower with someone else or a group and make sure to post the pics

Ur funny. Best one ive heard yet.

Geuze · 30-09-2014 1:37pm

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

It's as about as free as free healthcare. A huge proportion of the people in irish water were working in the local authorities were they not? I gather they were not working for free, so you were paying for it in tax.

The issue with irish water is where is the tax cut since they are no longer working in the local authorities? They no longer have that cost so that money should be returned to the taxpayers.
.

We used to use tax plus borrowings to pay for water services.

Now we pay tax plus charges.

So we borrow less.

Your tax won't fall.

But the fiscal deficit will.

AlekSmart · 30-09-2014 1:38pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Water treatment/supply was covered out of general taxation previously (presumably rates before that, before some genius decided as a politicial stroke to abolish them)

Overall the country isn't taking in enough in taxes to cover what we spend (and that's putting it mildly). So we have to dream up new taxes. These water charges were never intended to replace the costs of water supply which were covered by general taxation, they were intended to supplement them.

Plus, the Troika insisted on it.

Ahhh Joxer,The Troika...The troika....the troika......Jimmy Tully,Sylvester Barrett & Raphael Burke...would they pass the audition for the production of The Three Geniuses ?

http://books.google.ie/books?id=P6OdT7MIflgC&pg=PA332&lpg=PA332&dq=domestic+rates+abolished&source=bl&ots=x3HePUfnPK&sig=jcfxlRBDp0mZah1mxVXFG9diYgU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MKAqVOfeGYed7gb-oYHYBQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=domestic%20rates%20abolished&f=false

The "abolition" of Domestic Rates began a process,still unfinished,which has led to our current situation,whereby most Irish folk have genuinely lost sight of how the stuff of life's existence is actually Paid For.

Even after IW are off and running,Ireland continues to function under the belief that a declining number of working Contributors,can continue to fund their own lifestyles whilst ALSO funding the requirements of a comprehensive Social Support System for those who do NOT work.

My question remains,how can this be maintained....?

At some stage,something has to give....either the Contributor runs out of the ability to earn enough to maintain their contributions OR the recipients experience a reduction in their Social Support Systems/Payments.

(It should be noted that employed persons already HAVE an effective Income Ceiling imposed upon them by the EU Working Time Directive/Act)

Candy_Girl · 30-09-2014 1:50pm

How would they go about reducing your water pressure?

HeidiHeidi · 30-09-2014 1:53pm

Candy_Girl wrote: »

How would they go about reducing your water pressure?

I've wondered this as well, especially if you're one of the houses (I suspect/fear I'm one) who had one mains supplying two or more houses. .....

Satriale · 30-09-2014 1:54pm

JapaneseLove wrote: »

Well all i can say is that ide be sickened to be one of the thousands that have to pay for water. Fortunatly mine is free. Not so much as a red cent. Good luck with those water charges people.

How is your water free? I supply and clean my own water supply, and i subsidise the mains supply though my taxes.

I'd be interesed in free water though if you have a source:)

jamesbere · 30-09-2014 2:00pm

Every house that was built in the last 10-15 years should of been fitted with rainwater collectors for toilets. Some cisterns have a 10 litre if not more capacity, That's a lot of water to flush a bit of piss.

endacl · 30-09-2014 2:04pm

jamesbere wrote: »

Every house that was built in the last 10-15 years should of been fitted with rainwater collectors for toilets. Some cisterns have a 10 litre if not more capacity, That's a lot of water to flush a bit of piss.

Put a few bricks in your cistern.

Satriale · 30-09-2014 2:05pm

Candy_Girl wrote: »

How would they go about reducing your water pressure?

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

I've wondered this as well, especially if you're one of the houses (I suspect/fear I'm one) who had one mains supplying two or more houses. .....

I doubt they would especially in Heidis case, but it would be easy enough to install some kind of flow control valve at the meter.
If they did i imagine it would leave them open to all kind of bad publicity if there was a fire in a house/elderly person living in filth and squalor because they couldnt wash.

"Elderly man dies in fire, water turned to a trickle by Irish Water weeks before"

If their highly paid consultants havent told them that they they should get our money back.

Barely There · 30-09-2014 2:05pm

bladespin wrote: »

Ah seriously, bathing your kids/grandchildren should not be classed as a luxury.

Wait til it rains and throw them out into the back garden naked with a bar of soap.

Caliden · 30-09-2014 2:06pm

endacl wrote: »

Put a few bricks in your cistern.

Or you know, just lower the float?

jamesbere · 30-09-2014 2:07pm

Barely There wrote: »

Wait til it rains and throw them out into the back garden naked with a bar of soap.

Soap is a luxury, the rainwater will do them fine.

Egginacup · 30-09-2014 2:07pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

No, because going back to what we did before doesn't make much sense seeing as how it failed so spectacularly.

We need more taxes if we're to support the services we demand and have become used to.

You/we can either pay more tax or have less services provided by the state.

Free water didn't bankrupt the state, in case you hadn't noticed. Powerful elites bankrupted the state and then handed the general populace the invoice.

Satriale · 30-09-2014 2:07pm

Barely There wrote: »

Wait til it rains and throw them out into the back garden naked with a bar of soap Let them eat cake.

.

endacl · 30-09-2014 2:07pm

Barely There wrote: »

Wait til it rains and throw them out into the back garden naked with a bar of soap.

I don't care. I wouldn't class a shower as a luxury. I'm still going to have one every year, whether I need it or not.

josip · 30-09-2014 2:10pm

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

I live on my own and am hardly ever home, and am very water-conscious anyway, always have been - I'm going to get sooo done it's not funny :mad:

Really pisses me off, but nothing I can do (that I can think of so far).

So you're hardly ever at home and are complaining about water charges?

Are you the same person in other threads that is happily paying for UPC and presumably a TV licence?

Please correct me if I've missed something

BoJack Horseman · 30-09-2014 2:13pm

Egginacup wrote: »

Free water didn't bankrupt the state, in case you hadn't noticed. Powerful elites bankrupted the state and then handed the general populace the invoice.

Take away all that bank debt & the day-to-day deficit was still €1bn per month back in 2010/11

Something had to be done.

Egginacup · 30-09-2014 2:13pm

MadYaker wrote: »

Jesus, I thought everybody understood how basic economics works..... I guess I was wrong.

Well you're trying to sing the praises of an economic policy that pays Michael O'Leary child allowance.

Candy_Girl · 30-09-2014 2:14pm

Satriale wrote: »

I doubt they would especially in Heidis case, but it would be easy enough to install some kind of flow control valve at the meter.
If they did i imagine it would leave them open to all kind of bad publicity if there was a fire in a house/elderly person living in filth and squalor because they couldnt wash.

"Elderly man dies in fire, water turned to a trickle by Irish Water weeks before"

If their highly paid consultants havent told them that they they should get our money back.

Seems like a lot of work on their part if they decide to go down that route. I can't see it working as I'd say people will just pay a plummer to remove the valve or diy it.

Aglomerado · 30-09-2014 2:16pm

jamesbere wrote: »

Every house that was built in the last 10-15 years should of been fitted with rainwater collectors for toilets. Some cisterns have a 10 litre if not more capacity, That's a lot of water to flush a bit of piss.

Start a compost heap
Piss on it instead of in the jax
??????
Profit

Goodbye Free Water Today's The Last Day

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