The Mega Management Company thread

Daragh86 · 26-02-2012 8:41pm

No lifts, no central fire alarm, nothing really. There's a basement apartment (which I own), it has its own entrance. Upstairs there are two apartments and an office which all share he one entrance and stairway. That's about all there is to look after - the stairs and the front door. The problem is that the estate agent who sold me the apartment is the owner of the office and two apartments above and he is also the management company and I suppose management company agent so he has it all tied up himself.

I think at this stage I am going to pay the management fee for this year so that I am legally in the right and then I'm going to hammer on with the insurance payment but I'm definately not paying out another years management fees without seeing a breakdown of where it's going.

RocknRollDoggy · 21-06-2012 7:01am

we have our AGM in a few weeks and I was wondering, can the management company reveal who is paying and who isnt. I dont think its fair that people who dont pay can use the DATA PROTECTION ACT as a reason not to make their names public.

How Strange · 21-06-2012 7:53am

The apartment numbers can be disclosed but not the owners names.

The_Conductor · 21-06-2012 8:15am

Data Protection Act?
Management Companies are not prescribed bodies under the Act.

Any shareholder (member of the Management Company) is entitled to-

1. A list of all units which are uptodate on their payments
2. A list of all owners in the development
3. Properly audited accounts for the preceding year, along with an agenda for the AGM (to be sent in compliance with the rules for AGMs as prescribed by the Companies Act).
4. The opportunity to put a motion to the floor (normally under 'Any Other Business') directing the Management Company to chase delinquent apartment owners- you could even vote on what actions to take.
5. Only members in good stead are entitled to vote at the AGM (however all members can attend).

Get a copy of your lease- and go through it in detail- most of the actions of the Management Company and indeed schedules of payments etc will all be described in detail in it.

Paulw · 21-06-2012 9:20am

How Strange wrote: »

The apartment numbers can be disclosed but not the owners names.

That is not true.

Under the Companies Act, each member (shareholder) is entitled to a list of shareholders, so this would be their name and their share number (or unit number).

Full accounts can be requested which can show who is paid up and who isn't.

The Data Protection Act cannot be used to stop people from knowing who has paid and who hasn't.

robodonkey · 21-06-2012 9:25am

Publish a list of who HAS paid.

ur mentor · 26-06-2012 9:18pm

The following is on the data protection website under the FAQ section
1.10 Can Management Companies disclose to all members details of those property owners/members that have not paid service charges ?

In general, no. This is personal data of the members concerned and should not be disclosed without their consent or unless such disclosure is explicitly provided for in the memorandum and articles of association of the company as a condition of membership.

Each member is entitled to know who the other members are.. but not if they are in good standing.. However directors may know as they must do so that they can manage the company policies.

under MUDS you must get the insurance co details, the premium, the risks insured. You should be able to use this to get your insurance money by going directly to them.

Ms collie · 15-07-2012 3:15pm

There have been problems with non payment of management charges in my estate for ages, a mix of apartments and houses.

I have kept paying because my block insurance is included, bins etc. But we now have got to a situation where because ofgeneral non-payment, insurance cover is being cancelled becuase the property mangement company (KPM) hasn't enough funds to pay and this could affect individual mortgage arrangements.

I am not in arrears but I am getting worried. Has anyone else experience of this situation??

athtrasna · 15-07-2012 6:35pm

Have you been to recent AGMs? Have you seen the accounts? How bad is the debt situation? Have KPM engaged a debt collection service?

Lots of questions, and it's hard to know if this is being used to frighten people into paying or it's a general situation. AFAIK the management company can seek to have cover withdrawn from non paying units as a way to force the owners to pay (or face forfeiting the property to the bank) but I can't see how any directors could oversee a situation where cover is withdrawn from paying units.

Paulw · 15-07-2012 6:42pm

athtrasna wrote: »

I can't see how any directors could oversee a situation where cover is withdrawn from paying units.

That could happen if the development just doesn't have the funds to pay for insurance at all. A very bad situation to be in.

jenf3 · 15-07-2012 8:48pm

Ms collie wrote: »

There have been problems with non payment of management charges in my estate for ages, a mix of apartments and houses.

I have kept paying because my block insurance is included, bins etc. But we now have got to a situation where because ofgeneral non-payment, insurance cover is being cancelled becuase the property mangement company (KPM) hasn't enough funds to pay and this could affect individual mortgage arrangements.

I am not in arrears but I am getting worried. Has anyone else experience of this situation??

I am in a the same situation with KPM, (probably the same estate)
I have been in contact with KPM and they are not very helpful or hopeful that people will pay up.
One solution would be to insure each block separately but that may not work if the people in your block are the ones not paying fees, also some people have paid their fees in full and will not be able to afford to pay twice(and should not have to)
I have paid up each year and resent that it has come to this, they have been aware of this problem of non-payers for years and should have dealt with the situation long before this.
Any advice on how to deal with managing agent who has let the situation get this far?

Paulw · 15-07-2012 9:03pm

jenf3 wrote: »

Any advice on how to deal with managing agent who has let the situation get this far?

One option would be that before your next AGM, you propose having the management agent changed. This can then be voted on by members.

After that, get the elected directors to push through a new agent, as well as plans for debt recovery.

athtrasna · 15-07-2012 9:09pm

jenf3 wrote: »

Any advice on how to deal with managing agent who has let the situation get this far?

Call an EGM. Your two options are to replace KPM as agents or to get the owners to take it over yourself. You may also want to replace your board of directors, these are the people entrusted to act in the best interest of all owners in the development - they are clearly not doing that if the debt situation has been able to get to this stage.

I am an owner/director in our development and we use a debt collection company after six months. If someone is making no attempt to pay (we offer direct debit/paypal/staged payment options as well as full payment up front to try and facilitate different financial situations). I can't see how directors and an agent have allowed it to get to the stage where there is no money for insurance.

cookie1977 · 15-07-2012 9:20pm

Check to see if there are penalty clauses attached to any contracts with your management agency before you fire them.

Lantus · 16-07-2012 10:50pm

NEW QUESTION

What are the implications of non transference of the common areas? If the developer stills owns them then should people even be paying a service fee?

Also, does section 18 of the mud act that requires the developer to of paid all service fees on property he owns even if unsold apply retrospectively given its meant to apply from the day the first house is sold?

paddybarry · 22-09-2012 11:13pm

We live in a development containing 4 units which was completed in 2006. Three of these are residential and one is commercial. The developer owns the commercial unit and leases it to a restaurant. This unit has its own entrance and does not use common areas of the residential units

The developer set up the management company but passed ownership over to the owners of the three residential units in 2007 at an AGM. We run the management company ourselves and rotates the role of management company agent amongst ourselves on a three year basis.

Our questions are as follows:
Should the developer be part of the existing management company or does the fact that the unit he owns is commercial exclude him?

The developer, as far as we are aware, never vested control of the common areas over to the management company. We do not possess a copy of the deeds. Should this have happened? Should it happen now as a result of the MUD Act 2011?

Who would have prepared these deeds?

The duck of the restaurant's extractor fan runs up the common area of the residential units. Does this mean that we the management company own this? If not, should the developer be part of the management company as a result?

Finally it seems from our returns that only the director and secretary are listed as members? How would the owner of the third unit become a member? Does it matter that he is not listed as a member or should this be something that we should address.

We would appreciate some advice with respect to the above as it is causing a lot of stress to all three owners of residential units. Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Paulw · 23-09-2012 1:06pm

You have a very complex situation. You really need proper legal advice, and should consult a solicitor. No one here will know for sure.

You need to examine planning permission documents, company articles of association as well as your Lease contract (or deeds). A solicitor is the only one who can properly advise you.

gsp119 · 19-04-2013 2:21pm

New Question

Having problems with our Management Company - KPM
Roof leaking, trough light tunnell and 2 extraction fans which are ran up trough roof.. - Its gotten to the stage now where one of the hoses that is used to extract air up trough the roof vent is now holding water in the attic - at least a couple of litres of rain
This same roof was apparently repaired 4 weeks ago -altough when asked for details of repair - none were available. it appears we are been totally ignored by KPM.. anyone any advice..

jakdublin · 19-04-2013 2:34pm

gsp119 wrote: »

New Question

Having problems with our Management Company - KPM
Roof leaking, trough light tunnell and 2 extraction fans which are ran up trough roof.. - Its gotten to the stage now where one of the hoses that is used to extract air up trough the roof vent is now holding water in the attic - at least a couple of litres of rain
This same roof was apparently repaired 4 weeks ago -altough when asked for details of repair - none were available. it appears we are been totally ignored by KPM.. anyone any advice..

I presume KMP are your managing agents, not your management company. You are part of your own management company, who direct the managing agents through elected directors. Find out who the directors are. If the development is an older one, they might be neighbours that you can talk to and get info from. If it's a newer development, they will probably be the developers and in my experience won't be bothered about what's going on.

gsp119 · 19-04-2013 3:42pm

thanks jakdublin. will follow up as i'm not sure tbh

skinny6781 · 16-10-2013 10:49pm

HI ALL
we have a Managment company running our Estate , Estate is un-finnished and with 6 more home to be built , we are all paying our property taxs in the estate and no one want to pay the managment fees of 800 each on top of the property tax , Do we have to pay the managment fee befour the estate is Finished ???
Also the Managment company has just informed us that they do not have a licence in the Rep of ireland and are WAITING for one to be approved ? what should we do about the company not having a licence ???

athtrasna · 16-10-2013 10:54pm

You are mixing up management company and management agent. If you buy in a managed development that brings rights and responsibilities. You also commit to paying management fees in a legal document. Finished or not you still have to adhere to that commitment.

Try reading back on this thread and you will find plenty of information on the differences between MAs and MCs. You are a member of your management COMPANY

skinny6781 · 16-10-2013 11:13pm

yea sorry i know i a member of the managment company but the developer put in place a managment agent but now this managment agent has no licence in Ireland , should be be allowing a agent with no licence to be looking after our company
i must go back and go over this thread ,

Thanks you

Zenga · 16-10-2013 11:30pm

Well this is the new PRSA rules that came into place around this time last year and I know there was a very large backlog in getting agents & their employees registered so that in itself is not something to be very worried about.

Your first step really has to be to educate yourself about your management company. The management company is established once the first property is sold in a development and you would have signed an agreement to gain membership to the company. This membership gives you the rights to certain services being provided but also the responsibilities of paying the costs of these services.

If I were you my first priority would be to review the financial accounts and find out who exactly is on the board of directors. These MUST be owners in the development and they will be the most knowledgeable people to speak with.

Once you know the facts you could always join the board yourself as an owner and affect the change you want to see.

skinny6781 · 16-10-2013 11:41pm

New Question

There planning for 16 houses in my estate , 10 were built and finished in 2007 , of this 10 the last one was sold last week ,(Developer is not bust and is going strong)

my question is my managment fees are being Devided by 10 , so our fees of 8000 euro a year i have being told to pay 800 ,
Is this correct or should the Fees be Devided by 16 and the builder be paying for the 6th that are not built yet ???

Of they 6 left to be built 2 of them have the found in, since i moved in in 2010 and i being told they in since 2007 ,

Thank you

athtrasna · 16-10-2013 11:46pm

Zenga wrote: »

If I were you my first priority would be to review the financial accounts and find out who exactly is on the board of directors. These MUST be owners in the development and they will be the most knowledgeable people to speak with.

Not until the last unit is sold?

athtrasna · 16-10-2013 11:48pm

skinny6781 wrote: »

New Question

There planning for 16 houses in my estate , 10 were built and finished in 2007 , of this 10 the last one was sold last week ,(Developer is not bust and is going strong)

my question is my managment fees are being Devided by 10 , so our fees of 8000 euro a year i have being told to pay 800 ,
Is this correct or should the Fees be Devided by 16 and the builder be paying for the 6th that are not built yet ???

Of they 6 left to be built 2 of them have the found in, since i moved in in 2010 and i being told they in since 2007 ,

Thank you

What did the documents (lease/deeds) you signed at purchase state about the calculation of fees and fee liabilities of the developer prior to completion of the development? These will answer your question

Zenga · 17-10-2013 12:00am

athtrasna wrote: »

Not until the last unit is sold?

It is my understanding that the company would be formed once the first unit is sold as the new owner becomes a member of the management company otherwise it would be retrospective which wouldn't work legally.

athtrasna · 17-10-2013 12:05am

Zenga wrote: »

It is my understanding that the company would be formed once the first unit is sold as the new owner becomes a member of the management company otherwise it would be retrospective which wouldn't work legally.

The company is formed but the developer remains the directors(s) of the development until the last unit is sold.

Zenga · 17-10-2013 12:14am

skinny6781 wrote: »

New Question

There planning for 16 houses in my estate , 10 were built and finished in 2007 , of this 10 the last one was sold last week ,(Developer is not bust and is going strong)

my question is my managment fees are being Devided by 10 , so our fees of 8000 euro a year i have being told to pay 800 ,
Is this correct or should the Fees be Devided by 16 and the builder be paying for the 6th that are not built yet ???

Of they 6 left to be built 2 of them have the found in, since i moved in in 2010 and i being told they in since 2007 ,

Thank you

This is a really grey area, The lease will have a calculation of how the management fee will be apportioned, this can vary where every unit pays an equal amount, it can be divided by square footage, by how many bedrooms, the types of units (if a mixed property development)

However even "IF" the lease states that it is to be divided equally amongst all 16 units it is still not set in stone. Most leases allow for the apportionment to be changed and have a proviso right at the bottom of the section of the lease that deals with apportionment. This was included to allow for circumstances where units are added or taken away & may therefore the apportionment GMAT have changed.

There is also the multi unit development act which was enacted in 2011 which includes the provision that the apportionment of service charges must be equitable. So if the developer has 6 unsold units is he receiving all the services? If so it would be equitable that he pays the entirety of the service charge. It also stipulates that your service charge invoice should state exactly how your service charge is apportioned and it would be wise to check this against the lease for errors.

I have dealt with cases like this before and my advise is negotiation. The developer should in my view pay for shared costs such as the managing agents fee, auditors etc, but probably shouldn't be required to pay for repairs and maintenance, bin collection etc which he wouldn't be really getting the use of.

Zenga · 17-10-2013 12:22am

athtrasna wrote: »

The company is formed but the developer remains the directors(s) of the development until the last unit is sold.

No this is definitely not the case. They often continue as a director whilst they have unsold units but there is no legal basis for them to control the company until the last unit is sold. Once someone buys a property they gain 1 share in the company and are eligible to be elected as an officer of the company at the next AGM.

I think you may be referring to the transfer of the common areas? This is a different matter entirely but has been dealt with in detail in MUD. Again my understand of this is that the common areas must be transferred from the developer to the management company once 75% of the units are completed and sold and must be completed within a certain time period or an application can be made through MUD to have this completed. I stand to be corrected on this.

If this is occurring in your development be very careful, the management company must accept the transfer before it is deemed complete, So if there are incomplete / legacy issues these need to be addressed prior to the transfer as afterwards you will have no remit to chase the developer as it will then be the responsibility of the management company AKA you!

athtrasna · 17-10-2013 12:29am

Zenga wrote: »

No this is definitely not the case. They often continue as a director whilst they have unsold units but there is no legal basis for them to control the company until the last unit is sold. Once someone buys a property they gain 1 share in the company and are eligible to be elected as an officer of the company at the next AGM.

I think you may be referring to the transfer of the common areas? This is a different matter entirely but has been dealt with in detail in MUD. Again my understand of this is that the common areas must be transferred from the developer to the management company once 75% of the units are completed and sold and must be completed within a certain time period or an application can be made through MUD to have this completed. I stand to be corrected on this.

If this is occurring in your development be very careful, the management company must accept the transfer before it is deemed complete, So if there are incomplete / legacy issues these need to be addressed prior to the transfer as afterwards you will have no remit to chase the developer as it will then be the responsibility of the management company AKA you!

We didn't have an AGM until the last unit was sold. The developers then resigned as directors. There definitely was some documentary/legal basis for this but it's late and I can't remember off the top of the head what it was. Then again, the entire process took about 9 months from first to last unit sold.

Common areas weren't transferred for about 2 more years.

jakdublin · 17-10-2013 8:53am

athtrasna wrote: »

We didn't have an AGM until the last unit was sold. The developers then resigned as directors. There definitely was some documentary/legal basis for this but it's late and I can't remember off the top of the head what it was. Then again, the entire process took about 9 months from first to last unit sold.

Common areas weren't transferred for about 2 more years.

If it was more than two years ago, then it was before the MUD act came into force. There's no legal basis for it now.

shoutman · 05-06-2014 9:55am

For a three unit development with public space consisting of nothing more than grass verges, two public lighting columns and the roadway outside of the houses (off a main road) is there a way of getting residents to pay without forming a management company.

From my understanding, this development doesn't come under the MUD act as it needs to be 5 or more units, and realistically, the only costs (I can think of) will be for the insurance of the open space, the electricity bill for the public lighting and a sinking fund for redoing the tarmac at some point in the distant future if deemed necessary.

I would think that all of this would be a couple of hundred euro a year at most, is setting up an owners management company divisible by shares overkill or is it the easiest way to sort this out.

The_Conductor · 05-06-2014 10:28am

Insurance will be far and away your biggest expense here.
A couple of hundred Euro may not even cover public liability insurance.
You really need to get proper advice on this- any property management agent should be able to advise on a no-fee basis.

Lantus · 05-06-2014 3:45pm

a three unit development still has a MUD act requirement.

Expensive job though for three units. Auditing costs and PL insurance could be 2k before anything else. Can you get the local authority to take every thing in charge. Usually lights and roads they will and even greens but don't expect them to cut the grass!

That way your just left with grass cutting which I'm sure you can sort out between you all.

GregGregson · 31-07-2014 12:55pm

Hey, who out there has had experience with Wyse Management? I´ve been dealing with them for five years now and am sick of their smug attitude and paying out for nebulous expenses such as ¨sundry items 500E¨, ¨secretarial cost 1000E¨(should that not be included in their fee of 16,000?), ¨after hours helpline (for what ?!) 1,000E¨ - among many other things. These manag1ement companies have been taking the piss for too long, and now with the property tax and water tax coming there is no possible justificiation for these kinds of extraneous expenses

Paulw · 31-07-2014 1:40pm

So, why don't you become a director of your management company, then tender for the position of management agent, and replace Wyse?

Simple really. :rolleyes:

Lantus · 31-07-2014 2:11pm

if the expenses are real then there is a very real justification for them. However, the idea that a company expends exactly 500 on sundry items and 1000 on a secretary is quite odd.

The directors should ensure that these items get written into the contract or pay them out on a receipt provided basis with supporting justification. The contract should outline how these matters are dealt with. If the agent has the upper hand then shame on the directors for agreeing to this contract. Time for some re-negotiation I think.

16k is a high management fee so either you have a very large and/or a very complicated development that required significant hands on duties, hence the fee.

You'd be surprised how many people like to call at 8 or 9pm to discuss a bit of litter that has blown down the street. Of course there is always essential issues like emergencies for leaks, damage, fire etc. that need a point of contact at any time. Subject to your development this may be more critical than most.

Santa Cruz · 31-07-2014 2:14pm

Paulw wrote: »

So, why don't you become a director of your management company, then tender for the position of management agent, and replace Wyse?

Simple really. :rolleyes:

He doesn't have to be a Director. Let him do his figures and submit it to the Directors. They can explain at the A.G.M. why they have ruled out a more competitive quote (if it is)

GregGregson · 01-08-2014 11:43am

Its a 96 unit development so it´s big but not huge.Unfortunately the current directors are acquiescent to the management as they live in the houses which only have to pay half the amount in fees so they´ll want to keep the status quo. I live in a duplex and we were told at the last agm that Wyse, not us, own our backgarden which were never told when buying the house from the estate agents nor has it ever been alluded to before.In that case shouldn´t they be coming around to cut the grass in my backgarden as well. I couldn´t make it to that agm but i´m looking into it. They just seem to play by their own rules

jd · 01-08-2014 11:48am

Wyse do not own your back garden. They are the Management Agent.

GregGregson · 01-08-2014 11:52am

I don´t know why they said that then.

jd · 01-08-2014 12:13pm

GregGregson wrote: »

I don´t know why they said that then.

Perhaps they said the Management Company own the gardens. This wouldn't be Wyse.

You have a long lease on your property (maybe 900) years, probably including the garden

Paulw · 01-08-2014 12:35pm

GregGregson wrote: »

Its a 96 unit development so it´s big but not huge.Unfortunately the current directors are acquiescent to the management as they live in the houses which only have to pay half the amount in fees so they´ll want to keep the status quo. I live in a duplex and we were told at the last agm that Wyse, not us, own our backgarden which were never told when buying the house from the estate agents nor has it ever been alluded to before.In that case shouldn´t they be coming around to cut the grass in my backgarden as well. I couldn´t make it to that agm but i´m looking into it. They just seem to play by their own rules

You really need to read up on management companies, management agents, your Lease contract, the MUD Act, and more. Your management fee is a set percentage of the cost of running the development. I can't see how someone can be allowed to only pay half a fee, legally.

Either way, it sounds like you have a lot of questions to ask at the next AGM. And, don't forget, if you can't make it in person, you can send someone in your place, who can ask questions and vote on your behalf.

Lantus · 01-08-2014 3:28pm

GregGregson wrote: »

Its a 96 unit development so it´s big but not huge.Unfortunately the current directors are acquiescent to the management as they live in the houses which only have to pay half the amount in fees so they´ll want to keep the status quo. I live in a duplex and we were told at the last agm that Wyse, not us, own our backgarden which were never told when buying the house from the estate agents nor has it ever been alluded to before.In that case shouldn´t they be coming around to cut the grass in my backgarden as well. I couldn´t make it to that agm but i´m looking into it. They just seem to play by their own rules

Ring up the ODCE and ask for a free copy of the management company handbook to be posted out to you, then get your companies articles from the CRO site for a few quid. You will need to get your solicitor to get your contract lease document unless you already have a copy.

Houses are not paying 'half' they are paying their proportional part of the service fee as calculated and as laid out in the budget issued to you prior to the AGM which even if you could not attend you should still be able to read.

You will see that the houses are private dwellings and so contribute towards things like the greens, boundary walls and company costs like everyone else. What they don't pay for is elements associated with the common buildings (apartments.) As the company pays for the maintenance and block insurance on this building for all those who own a unit in it that element is built into the service fee. It will obviously be higher. Bear in mind that home owners have to procure their own buildings insurance and pay for all their own maintenance which can work out more expensive. Be sure you make a like for like comparison.

If your OMC owns the garden then maybe they should be cutting it. Are they open and accessible or secure to each owner? Do the company have access at all times unhindered? Is this outlined in the contract lease? read, read, read....otherwise its just guess work and someone's 'honest word' that what they are telling you is the truth.

In the wind · 06-08-2014 11:08am

GregGregson wrote: »

Hey, who out there has had experience with Wyse Management? I´ve been dealing with them for five years now and am sick of their smug attitude and paying out for nebulous expenses such as ¨sundry items 500E¨, ¨secretarial cost 1000E¨(should that not be included in their fee of 16,000?), ¨after hours helpline (for what ?!) 1,000E¨ - among many other things. These manag1ement companies have been taking the piss for too long, and now with the property tax and water tax coming there is no possible justificiation for these kinds of extraneous expenses

Hi Greg,
I am currently looking at Smithfield Village as a potential property & I noted that they are managed by Wyse also but the projected annual fee is much smaller.
I'm alos surprised at these extra perfectly round figures, I'd be seeking a breakout of these expenses - withiut detail & perhaps receipts it looks like they may be pulling numbers out of the sky & also why are these not planned in the first instance?

Paulw · 15-11-2014 9:14pm

usefulltip wrote: »

Your absolutely right they never itemise anything so you get screwed! Ask Wyse about cost efficiencies and they play bumb. Challenge them on everything and insist on getting costs down by 25% or else they will get bined for new progressive management companies over old inefficient pratices!

Wyse are not the management company, they are only a management agent. At your AGM, the full budget should be proposed and voted on. If you have queries, that is your chance to raise them. The directors of the management company should be able to justify any proposed costs. Wyse simply do as they are told by the directors of the management company, who you elect.

jd · 15-11-2014 10:34pm

Paulw wrote: »

Wyse simply do as they are told by the directors of the management company, who you elect.

Ha, Wyse resigned as agents of our development a few years ago! They didn't like being told what to do by the owners

P. Breathnach · 15-11-2014 10:45pm

jd wrote: »

Ha, Wyse resigned as agents of our development a few years ago! They didn't like being told what to do by the owners

It's possible that the owners were being unreasonable.

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The Mega Management Company thread