Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 7:26pm

Christ.

salmocab · 26-11-2014 7:28pm

Clegg wrote: »

Fitz undergoing scans and hopes to be ready for the Quins games.

See him in April so.

Christ if he was a dog, he would be sent to live on a farm.

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 7:30pm

Just read the update there now, doesnt sound too bad, no mention of a scan just rehab.. but fitz's history..

Neil3030 · 26-11-2014 7:36pm

It's somewhat galling that so few of his injuries happen during games. Can they just wrap him up during the week and only put him into full contact for matches?

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 7:38pm

is he really injured or are they being cautious? seems like the second thing to me.

Buer · 26-11-2014 7:40pm

Beery Eyed wrote: »

Also, it was suggested that only huge young 10's were able to step up to pro level early. Whereas, as you have pointed out, all of the above made their pro & international debuts at a young age despite being on the smaller side.

It was said in relation to Welsh rugby that Marsh would have appearances under his belt if he played there. I made the point that the majority of the Welsh guys who were capped young were big blokes, physically, which is true. Morgan aside, they're all very big for their position. I also said that the biggest reason was that there is no A side for them to appear in.

There will always be room for smaller people in rugby but the fact is that they're going to have to be extremely talented to make an impression. I'm sure if George Ford was born in Leinster he'd be the first choice outhalf here too. He made his debut for Leicester at 16. Jackson started for Ulster shortly after his 19th birthday. Morgan was starting for the Ospreys at 18. Those guys are anomalies.

It's not really applicable to the Marsh situation who, in all honesty, was never even a cert to make it into the Leinster academy.

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 7:48pm

Buer wrote: »

It's not really applicable to the Marsh situation who, in all honesty, was never even a cert to make it into the Leinster academy.

because of his size, since being in the academy he has performed very well.. I'd agree that Byrne will more than likely bypass him as time passes but Marsh certainly deserves a shot and the only chance he got was under Schmidt.

Bridge93 · 26-11-2014 7:50pm

Before he came I had Gopperth down has a kicking 10. His days at Newcastle he would win games by himself with penalties and tactical kicking. He was never a good running 10.
This season and at times last year his kicking game has gone to pieces at numerous occasions. This has happened while remaining the same uninspiring ball in hand 10. Not really a threat and indecisive far too regularly. When you take his kicking game out of him I dont see whats left really.
He's had a few bad games, Munster, Treviso Wasps. The more realistic problem is that he is not bad, but anonymous most of the time. I do not see what he brings.

Madigan may have been more prone to errors than him in the past but that isnt the case at the minute. He is also more creative, kicking better and a better defender. Gopperth without kicking to me seems just.. there. When both play Madigan will kick goals not Gopperth.
Gopperths kicking from hand, whild most likely unfer instruction, must improve.

.ak · 26-11-2014 7:50pm

So Locky, Strauss and Fitzy out by the sounds of it. Fitzy sounds fecked - the word rehab was used.

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 7:55pm

Team I'd like to see

1. Bent
2. Cronin
3. Furlong
4. McCarthy
5. Douglas
6. Ryan
7. Murphy
8. Conan
9. Reddan
10. Madigan
11. Kearney
12. Reid
13. McFadden
14. Fanning
15. Krichner
16. Byrne
17. Dooley
18. Hagan
19. Denton
20. Jennings or
21. McGrath
22. Gopperth
23. Macken

Buer · 26-11-2014 7:58pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

Before he came I had Gopperth down has a kicking 10. His days at Newcastle he would win games by himself with penalties and tactical kicking. He was never a good running 10.
This season and at times last year his kicking game has gone to pieces at numerous occasions. This has happened while remaining the same uninspiring ball in hand 10. Not really a threat and indecisive far too regularly. When you take his kicking game out of him I dont see whats left really.
He's had a few bad games, Munster, Treviso Wasps. The more realistic problem is that he is not bad, but anonymous most of the time. I do not see what he brings.

Gopperth was always a good running 10 and has continued to run the ball a lot with Leinster. He played a significant amount of rugby with Newcastle at 15 and attacking from deep.

He regularly has a cut and often breaks the gain line; that would be one of the last aspects I'd use to beat him with. He's just completely inconsistent and makes too many errors.

Podge_irl · 26-11-2014 8:01pm

If anything Gopperth has run and taken a cut far too often in some games.

Though I've never entirely understood what people meant by a "running" 10. One that runs well himself or one that facilitates his outside backs to do so.

Bridge93 · 26-11-2014 8:06pm

Buer wrote: »

Gopperth was always a good running 10 and has continued to run the ball a lot with Leinster. He played a significant amount of rugby with Newcastle at 15 and attacking from deep.

He regularly has a cut and often breaks the gain line; that would be one of the last aspects I'd use to beat him with. He's just completely inconsistent and makes too many errors.

I dont mean having a go himself, I mean bringing his backline into play. Now i would assume Newcastle being s**t wouldnt help but Leinster's backplay has been poor for a year and a half with a few notable exceptions. (Gopperth didnt play in Northampton)
The amount of times that I remember balm coming out of rucks reasonably quickly only for Gopperth to not make a decision and get tackled or have to carry it up is too much. (could be in my head though i dont think so)

vienne86 · 26-11-2014 8:07pm

.ak wrote: »

So Locky, Strauss and Fitzy out by the sounds of it. Fitzy sounds fecked - the word rehab was used.

It does sound positive enough re Fitz, but I can just feel the 'one wee too soon....' coming up. Feck it anyway, because he was playing well when he did play in the last few weeks.

downthemiddle · 26-11-2014 8:11pm

.ak wrote: »

Becuase one poor game doesn't equal a poor season, which is what my original point was.

Madigan being the 22 jersey for Ireland doesn't mean anything. Just means he's more versatile than the other options.

If you think the Treviso game was Gopperth's first poor game you haven't watched much of Leinster.
Even more hilarious is stating the Madigan being in the Ireland squad "doesn't mean anything". I would tend to trust Schmidt's judgement over yours and Joe rates him highly for good reason, Madigan is a very talented player.
Madigan is a better defender, he is a better and more explosive runner, he is a better tactical kicker, he is a better place kicker, he runs the back line better and he plays on the gain line while Gopperth sits in the pocket.
Gopperth, especially alongside Boss, makes my eyes bleed.

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 8:13pm

Madigan does not run a backline better.. and both their tactical kicking is poor.

Quint2010 · 26-11-2014 8:14pm

vienne86 wrote: »

It does sound positive enough re Fitz, but I can just feel the 'one wee too soon....' coming up.

Whats he got this time? Kidney infection?..

Buer · 26-11-2014 8:16pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

I dont mean having a go himself, I mean bringing his backline into play. Now i would assume Newcastle being s**t wouldnt help but Leinster's backplay has been poor for a year and a half with a few notable exceptions. (Gopperth didnt play in Northampton)
The amount of times that I remember balm coming out of rucks reasonably quickly only for Gopperth to not make a decision and get tackled or have to carry it up is too much. (could be in my head though i dont think so)

He's well able to bring his back line into play. This has been done to death on here many times. He's quite good at putting others away with a little pop or put a flat pass in.

His weaknesses would be his decision making, his defence and his completely inconsistent kicking from hand. Obviously his decision making impacts on his back line too but, overall, his ability to move the ball to his backs isn't one of the areas I'd attack him over. He's undoubtedly been better at putting his backs through gaps than anyone else in the past year at Leinster.

Putinovsky · 26-11-2014 8:26pm

Quint2010 wrote: »

Whats he got this time? Kidney infection?..

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HOW IS DECCIE STILL GETTING ACCESS TO OUR PLAYERS?!

.ak · 26-11-2014 8:42pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

If you think the Treviso game was Gopperth's first poor game you haven't watched much of Leinster.
Even more hilarious is stating the Madigan being in the Ireland squad "doesn't mean anything". I would tend to trust Schmidt's judgement over yours and Joe rates him highly for good reason, Madigan is a very talented player.
Madigan is a better defender, he is a better and more explosive runner, he is a better tactical kicker, he is a better place kicker, he runs the back line better and he plays on the gain line while Gopperth sits in the pocket.
Gopperth, especially alongside Boss, makes my eyes bleed.

Haven't missed a minute.

Joe has Madigan in the squad because of his versatility. He's already admitted that Jackson is the better 10.

Madigan being behind a NIQ has no bearing on being the best choice for the 22 jersey for ireland.

I wouldn't say madigan's kicking from hand is great, and he's completely incapable of running a backline with any subtlety or direction.

Heroditas · 26-11-2014 9:01pm

Buer wrote: »

He's well able to bring his back line into play. This has been done to death on here many times. He's quite good at putting others away with a little pop or put a flat pass in.

His weaknesses would be his decision making, his defence and his completely inconsistent kicking from hand. Obviously his decision making impacts on his back line too but, overall, his ability to move the ball to his backs isn't one of the areas I'd attack him over. He's undoubtedly been better at putting his backs through gaps than anyone else in the past year at Leinster.

Unfortunately, those pops/inside passes have been intercepted quite a few times this year.
Gotta laugh at his weaknesses though - that's pretty much his whole game apart from his passing!

He's made ROG look Wilko-esque (circa 2001-2003) in defence at times this season.

former legend · 26-11-2014 9:14pm

It's bizarre how two very short cameos for Ireland, one of which wasn't even at out half, have made Madigan clearly the better 10 when all the evidence of the last 15 months tells us he is not.

Quint2010 · 26-11-2014 9:15pm

.ak wrote: »

I wouldn't say madigan's kicking from hand is great, and he's completely incapable of running a backline with any subtlety or direction.

If he was that bad there is no way JS would be picking him as backup 10/12/13.

molloyjh · 26-11-2014 9:21pm

.ak wrote: »

I wouldn't say madigan's kicking from hand is great, and he's completely incapable of running a backline with any subtlety or direction.

That's just not true ak. He's not up to the level we need in that regard, but what you're saying here is a long way from that again. We've seen Mads run a backline before a few times. Northampton away being a case in point. If he wasn't able the Joe would have no time for him at all.

Heroditas · 26-11-2014 9:37pm

The funny thing is though that Joe was the person who signed Gopperth.
To be fair, I believe the main problem is a severe lack of confidence running through the team at the moment. Hopefully some of the confidence from the Ireland camp will run off on the Leinster squad and with a lot of players returning from injury, we'll see an upturn in the next few weeks.

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 10:12pm

Heroditas wrote: »

To be fair, I believe the main problem is a severe lack of confidence running through the team at the moment.

who is to blame for that though?

vienne86 · 26-11-2014 10:25pm

otbrugby wrote: »

who is to blame for that though?

Flick back a few pages in this thread!

Heroditas · 26-11-2014 10:32pm

otbrugby wrote: »

who is to blame for that though?

Confidence can be a strange thing though. It's one of those infectious things and even the best coach in the world might not be able to lift it. It could just take a lucky break or for things to "click" and the players will be fine again.

downthemiddle · 26-11-2014 11:02pm

.ak wrote: »

Haven't missed a minute.

Joe has Madigan in the squad because of his versatility. He's already admitted that Jackson is the better 10.

Madigan being behind a NIQ has no bearing on being the best choice for the 22 jersey for ireland.

I wouldn't say madigan's kicking from hand is great, and he's completely incapable of running a backline with any subtlety or direction.

Oh dear.
Joe has Madigan in the squad because he is currently the second best Irish 10. His comments re Jackson relate back to the 6N when Madigan was low on confidence and getting no game time at Leinster. In the meantime Jackson has lost form and was omitted from the squad for the AI. You conveniently ignore that Leinster's best performance under MOC had Madigan running the show.
Gopperth is a conservative player being selected by a conservative coach.

aimee1 · 26-11-2014 11:07pm

Clegg wrote: »

Fitz undergoing scans and hopes to be ready for the Quins games.

See him in April so.

im beginning to think this is all physcology now. These little tweaks or strains or whatever are all a fear issue.

sydthebeat · 26-11-2014 11:07pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Oh dear.
Joe has Madigan in the squad because he is currently the second best Irish 10. His comments re Jackson relate back to the 6N when Madigan was low on confidence and getting no game time at Leinster. In the meantime Jackson has lost form and was omitted from the squad for the AI. You conveniently ignore that Leinster's best performance under MOC had Madigan running the show.
Gopperth is a conservative player being selected by a conservative coach.

Madigan gets the 22 Jersey because he's a more versatile reserve. When sexton can't start, PJ starts, all things being equal.
If you can't see that, well, that's your issue.

vienne86 · 26-11-2014 11:08pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Oh dear.
Joe has Madigan in the squad because he is currently the second best Irish 10. His comments re Jackson relate back to the 6N when Madigan was low on confidence and getting no game time at Leinster. In the meantime Jackson has lost form and was omitted from the squad for the AI. You conveniently ignore that Leinster's best performance under MOC had Madigan running the show.
Gopperth is a conservative player being selected by a conservative coach.

I presume that best performance was v Northampton away. The forwards were really on top that day, and Madigan (and most 10's for that matter) always look good when the pack is on top.

SaveOurLyric · 26-11-2014 11:11pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Oh dear.
Joe has Madigan in the squad because he is currently the second best Irish 10. His comments re Jackson relate back to the 6N when Madigan was low on confidence and getting no game time at Leinster. In the meantime Jackson has lost form and was omitted from the squad for the AI. You conveniently ignore that Leinster's best performance under MOC had Madigan running the show.
Gopperth is a conservative player being selected by a conservative coach.

And Mads was given the full of the Georgia game with a view to him, like the others who played that game, being able to play a full game if injuries to first choice players required. And he played well. He has also proven he has the head to handle pressure of the highest level, steering us home Paris and now Aus. Plus, Keatley or Jackson simply dont compete with him as a goal kicker - he is international level from the tee - they are suspect, i.e. not international kickers. You need to be a very clearly superior outhalf to overcome a goalkicking weakness.

Hagz · 26-11-2014 11:12pm

In my opinion there's little to be gained by using the Madigan at 22 for Ireland argument.
First of all, Gopperth isn't IQ, so I don't really see the relevance it has in a comparison between the two players.
Secondly, Jonathan Sexton doesn't leave the field unless he has to be helped off the field, so naturally the 22 slot is used differently in Ireland. It doesn't make sense to have someone in that 22 jersey who can only play 10. So nobody can make the assumption that Madigan is the second best out-half simply because he gets in that 22 slot.

downthemiddle · 26-11-2014 11:15pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Madigan gets the 22 Jersey because he's a more versatile reserve. When sexton can't start, PJ starts, all things being equal.
If you can't see that, well, that's your issue.

Like the Georgia game?

sydthebeat · 26-11-2014 11:20pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Like the Georgia game?

How can PJ play if he's not in the squad?

Like i said, "all this being equal" such as form and fitness. .....

vienne86 · 26-11-2014 11:24pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

And Mads was given the full of the Georgia game with a view to him, like the others who played that game, being able to play a full game if injuries to first choice players required. And he played well. He has also proven he has the head to handle pressure of the highest level, steering us home Paris and now Aus. Plus, Keatley or Jackson simply dont compete with him as a goal kicker - he is international level from the tee - they are suspect, i.e. not international kickers. You need to be a very clearly superior outhalf to overcome a goalkicking weakness.

I was forgetting about the Georgia game, and in fairness, Madigan had a cracking game at 10.

downthemiddle · 26-11-2014 11:25pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

How can PJ play if he's not in the squad?

Like i said, "all this being equal" such as form and fitness. .....

Why wasn't he in the squad?

otbrugby · 26-11-2014 11:28pm

Madigan isnt some sort of great outhalf, he is decent as is Gopperth.. he deserves to start at 10 this weekend tho.

jacothelad · 26-11-2014 11:29pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Why wasn't he in the squad?

He broke a bone in his back in May. That tends to hold a player back.:D

downthemiddle · 26-11-2014 11:30pm

jacothelad wrote: »

He broke a bone in his back in May. That tends to hold a player back.:D

It may come as a shock to you but he has played since May.

vienne86 · 26-11-2014 11:32pm

jacothelad wrote: »

He broke a bone in his back in May. That tends to hold a player back.:D

And just when he was looking really good last weekend, he got clobbered again and is out for another spell. Pity.

sydthebeat · 26-11-2014 11:32pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

It may come as a shock to you but he has played since May.

not against Georgia

Quint2010 · 26-11-2014 11:33pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Madigan gets the 22 Jersey because he's a more versatile reserve. When sexton can't start, PJ starts, all things being equal.
If you can't see that, well, that's your issue.

You forgot that Jackson was completely omitted for any of the squads in the AI's because of poor form which, you know, is quote an important reason for getting selected (or not). Madigan wasnt left on for 80 minutes against Georgia because he cant kick out of hand or run a backline. He is our second best 10 behind Sexton end of story. The mystery is why isn't MOC playing him there for Leinster?

downthemiddle · 26-11-2014 11:33pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

not against Georgia

Because he wasn't in the squad. And he wasn't in the squad because.......

.ak · 27-11-2014 1:02am

Jackson was omitted from the squad because he was just back from an injury. He's a far better out half than Madigan, I think that's fairly obvious. Madigan is an excellent rugby player but I stuck by my assertion that he cannot play 10 to a high level. Slotting in there in an emergency while covering 9, 12, 13 and 15 is what makes him the ideal bench player for any squad.

I really hope he does come good but with sexton coming back I can't see it happening. Think his future is destined for either the 22 jersey or the 12 one.

otbrugby · 27-11-2014 1:27am

12 is Madigans future at Leinster, Reid hasnt done much this season to reaffirm he could be the future there so there is certainly space.

Quint2010 · 27-11-2014 7:53am

.ak wrote: »

Jackson was omitted from the squad because he was just back from an injury.

Total nonsense. He made 6 starts for Ulster this year before the AI's. 6 starts??? Including both ECC Games. If he had played well he would have at least been called into the squad for the Georgia game.He was dropped because of poor form.

awec · 27-11-2014 9:23am

Jackson has been set back by the injury to his back. His season never really got going. Out for another while now so I suspect he will miss the 6N too. He didn't just randomly lose form out of nowhere.

He also suffers when he has to play beside a terrible scrum half in Marshall, and an outside back line that changes every week cause of injuries.

vienne86 · 27-11-2014 9:37am

awec wrote: »

Jackson has been set back by the injury to his back. His season never really got going. Out for another while now so I suspect he will miss the 6N too. He didn't just randomly lose form out of nowhere.

He also suffers when he has to play beside a terrible scrum half in Marshall, and an outside back line that changes every week cause of injuries.

Madigan is a very very good rugby player but at 10, I believe Jackson is a lot better than him. Jackson took a while to get back after injury, but last weekend we saw him back to something like his old self. But he is injured again.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

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