NCT fail: "secondary structure corrosion"

Grolschevik · 09-05-2014 12:20pm #1

So failed on rust/corrosion on the left rear wheel arch of my 2000 Fiesta (Mark IV facelift).

Pic attached (hopefully!). It didn't look like that going in, so he must have poked the brittle rust out of it.

I asked the guy what the story with it was, and he said "well, it's supposed to be a metal repair, but...". And to just take to a garage and get it patched up.

It's only a visual retest, 30 days to return

My basic questions are:
a) My regular indie garage or a body specialist?
b) How much do you reckon?

(I just want to be prepared: this month's paycheque or the next!)

bear1 · 09-05-2014 12:50pm

I'd get a quote to see how much that would cost first. Then way up your options if it makes it financially viable.
That rust is pretty extensive in that area and you can see it bubbling and spreading.

corktina · 09-05-2014 1:06pm

the car is worth very little, I wouldn't want to pay a few hundreds to a garage, I'm a terrible welder but I'd have a go myself....it doesn't matter what it looks like....(it might to you, I guess, if you are attached to the car.) Might be time to get rid and replace it....(surely youknew the rust was there going into the test, it looks quite a large bubble

AS regards the " supposed to be metal but" , what he is saying is you could clean it all out, treat it with rust killer, fill it with Isopon or similar, sand it back to the shape and paint it in primer....and it would pass....don't expect a pass next year though!

Grolschevik · 09-05-2014 1:21pm

I knew the rust was there, all right; I just hadn't poked at it!

The car's worth very little all right, but I've had it from new, it's a nice Ghia with air con, the engine's in good shape, and it only has 79k on it. Not so much a sentimental attachment as much as I know it -- I it'll work, drive well, and be reliable.

And the hassle of looking for a replacement! (It'd be a real chore for me, but no doubt loads of fun for many others).

I'll see what my mechanic advises. There's similar developing on the other side, too.

corktina · 09-05-2014 1:41pm

OK so worth getting it patched..better the devil you know.... Remember it doesn't need to be pretty, just solid

jimb43 · 09-05-2014 3:23pm

i would say he was pretty fair to you , only visual next time " cool" you should be able to get that done at a garage for about 50/ 75 euro, its not half the car just a bit cutting out and a bit welded back in, no great big job, so don't pay anymore than 75

YbFocus · 09-05-2014 3:28pm

jimb43 wrote: »

i would say he was pretty fair to you , only visual next time " cool" you should be able to get that done at a garage for about 50/ 75 euro, its not half the car just a bit cutting out and a bit welded back in, no great big job, so don't pay anymore than 75

That is far less than what is to be expected for a quote on a job like that.
It doesn't take anything other than rods and a bit of sheet metal but its hugely time consuming.
I'd be more expectant of €200 to be honest anyway.

matt70iu · 09-05-2014 4:24pm

Had a similar problem with a Micra I had a few years back except it was all along the bottom sills. Got that sorted with a bit of sheet metal welder and a reasonably competent mechanic:)

Bit of spray paint that matches the colour of the car, make sure the weld is grinded down properly and it should be reasonably flush.

60 quid is all he charged me, so you should be fine!

lomb · 09-05-2014 7:29pm

Maybe sand /drill the rust out and use this stuff https://mercedessource.com/problems/rust-corrosion/miracle-rust-repair-your-old-mercedes
and some spray paint or with an artists brush.

Grolschevik · 09-05-2014 8:04pm

lomb wrote: »

Maybe sand /drill the rust out and use this stuff https://mercedessource.com/problems/rust-corrosion/miracle-rust-repair-your-old-mercedes
and some spray paint or with an artists brush.

Is that available over here? Last thing I ordered online from the states took ages...

jimb43 · 10-05-2014 12:09am

YbFocus wrote: »

That is far less than what is to be expected for a quote on a job like that.
It doesn't take anything other than rods and a bit of sheet metal but its hugely time consuming.
I'd be more expectant of €200 to be honest anyway.

Don't be silly yb its only a 2 inch hole so it will only need a bit of messing about 2 inches eighter side of it to get rid of anymore rust, 200 quid ?????, thats ridiculous. i would be looking more like 50 , but at a push 75( and i would feel hard done by at that )

Interslice · 10-05-2014 12:21am

jimb43 wrote: »

Don't be silly yb its only a 2 inch hole so it will only need a bit of messing about 2 inches eighter side of it to get rid of anymore rust, 200 quid ?????, thats ridiculous. i would be looking more like 50 , but at a push 75( and i would feel hard done by at that )

2 inch hole

. There's a decent bit of work in that to do it right. You can't weld onto rust. If you want to bodge it to keep it going for a bit, just hack and grind all the rust out, pack it with 2 part filler, sand it back and paint it.

jimb43 · 10-05-2014 12:27am

Interslice wrote: »

2 inch hole . There's a decent bit of work in that to do it right. You can't weld onto rust. If you want to bodge it to keep it going for a bit, just hack and grind all the rust out, pack it with 2 part filler, sand it back and paint it.

or you could cut out the rust , and the serounding good metal , weld a bit of new steel , pay a man 50 euro, don't need painting , it only for a visual , to pass nct
job done, its a simple job for a man with a bit of good skills about him

jimb43 · 10-05-2014 12:34am

Grolschevik, if you look about mate you will get it sone for 50 / 75 euro, anyone starts quoting you 200 they ripping you off, GOOD LUCK , I'm not following thread anymore , i said my bit , and carnt be arsed arguing about it with all and sundry, it a little bit of welding, not more than an hours work , thats the top and bottom of it, wish you all the best, jim

moss.ie · 10-05-2014 12:49am

Grolschevik,

i work in a bodyshop and we do one of these type of repairs every couple of weeks.

theres only one way to repair the vehicle properly , bring it to a bodyshop, these type of nct structural fails are common and any bodyshop worth their salt should make pretty short work of it.

the corroded section has to be removed and as its structural, new metal has to be welded in place. normal procedure for these type of repairs is to just prime over the new metal so that the NCt crowd can inspect the repair.

you can then choose to get the repaired section filled and painted to match the car or just leave it as is, your choice.

the nct examiner will definately try stick a screwdriver or something similar through the repaired section to see if its structurally sound so filling the hole with fillers or fiberglass as mentioned already is only A) gowling &

a waste of money.

cost will probably range from 50 to 250 and really depends on what type of finish you want. one thing to be aware of - the cost will also depend on how extensive the corrosion is and this will only become apparent when they start cutting away the damaged section to find sound metal to weld the new section to.

hope this helps a bit.

corktina · 10-05-2014 9:42am

The NCT examiner is not allowed stick a screwdriver into it...just tap it, which is no doubt how he made the hole in the first place. That hole is a lot bigger than 2" btw!

boatbuilder · 10-05-2014 9:53am

I had same problem with a 99 Renault megane. I knocked it all out, sanded it a bit,put in some fiberglass and filler,sanded it smooth and sprayed it with aerosol paint. Not worth spending hundreds on an old car like that!

Grolschevik · 11-05-2014 12:57am

corktina wrote: »

The NCT examiner is not allowed stick a screwdriver into it...just tap it, which is no doubt how he made the hole in the first place. That hole is a lot bigger than 2" btw!

Yeah, he actually excavated it for me. He removed all the covering rust.

(Unless I was unlucky and ridiculously unobservant, and the carwash did it. But no, he excavated it for me).

I want to keep this car on the road, at least for the next year and maybe beyond.

So, the secondary question: will my local indie guy be able to sort it, or dmdpwgt need a specialist body shop?

If the latter, any recommendations? I live in Portmarnock, work near Smithfield.

pablo128 · 11-05-2014 1:21am

This is my yoke. I had a 2 inch hole in my sill. I looked through and could see rust on the inner sill. I cut off the outer sill to inspect. The 1st pic shows a good portion of the lower inner sill gone completely. 2nd pic is the inside of the outer sill. 3rd pic is a strenghtening section of the inner sill. Hard to see from the pics, but thre rust is gone in too far. Probably a full days work on each side. Did I mention the far side is worse?
I put a plate in just to support the bottom of the outer sill and just tacked it back on. I have an appointment with the bank for a loan, and as soon as I get another car this will be going to the scrappers. Unfortunate really as the car runs perfectly, but there you go.

Stella Virgo · 11-05-2014 11:27am

is that the only spot he failed it on? if so it is easily repaired. if there is more on the chassis etc........

Tail Docker · 11-05-2014 5:57pm

I weld a lot, work, and €50 me hole.. the pictures in pablos post show what you usually find when you start cutting - and no matter how good you are, it's still a bodge when you meet that sort of corrosion - no way are you getting it all. If the OP's car was mine, I'd hammer out the rust, lash in isopon, give it some paint and get it re-tested. There will be new holes in a year regardless. No point going to big rounds on a car that cheap - just get it through the test and see what a years motoring brings..that wheel-arch isn't structural anyway and it only failed because of the sharp edges posing a risk to pedestrians etc - secondary structure.

pablo128 · 11-05-2014 8:19pm

Tail Docker wrote: »

I weld a lot, work, and €50 me hole.. the pictures in pablos post show what you usually find when you start cutting - and no matter how good you are, it's still a bodge when you meet that sort of corrosion - no way are you getting it all. If the OP's car was mine, I'd hammer out the rust, lash in isopon, give it some paint and get it re-tested. There will be new holes in a year regardless. No point going to big rounds on a car that cheap - just get it through the test and see what a years motoring brings..that wheel-arch isn't structural anyway and it only failed because of the sharp edges posing a risk to pedestrians etc - secondary structure.

Agree with everything there. In my case, what you can't see is that the rust is too close to a rear suspension mounting point for my liking. I can weld well enough, but this particular car just isn't worth the amount of effort needed.

To the OP, your cheapest option is to find a rust free car and swap all the Ghia bits onto it. They can be bought cheap enough now.

porsche boy · 11-05-2014 9:00pm

jimb43 wrote: »

i would say he was pretty fair to you , only visual next time " cool" you should be able to get that done at a garage for about 50/ 75 euro, its not half the car just a bit cutting out and a bit welded back in, no great big job, so don't pay anymore than 75

This is just a waffle. You'll be paying more than this unless jim fancies doing it for that price. I'd budge a couple of hundred for both sides but at least you'll have another year our of her or be able to sell her on with a fresh ticket. If you qantto sell as is send me a pm.

Tail Docker · 11-05-2014 10:18pm

porsche boy wrote: »

This is just a waffle. You'll be paying more than this unless jim fancies doing it for that price. I'd budge a couple of hundred for both sides but at least you'll have another year our of her or be able to sell her on with a fresh ticket. If you qantto sell as is send me a pm.

Very true - lowest labour rate for anyone who isn't utterly hookey is €45 an hour and the amount done in one hour on that rust wouldn't scare you. A bodge with filler would take an hour or more, actually cutting it out, fabbing sheet metal, welding it in, filling, sanding, pinholing, priming and then top-coating - all in an hour?? Materials costing nothing as you lifted them from halfords - or else you'll bung €30 at the least at them too.. I'd say a garage quote for getting that fixed would be steep, and rightly so.

Bigus · 11-05-2014 10:28pm

Isopon P 40 , sand down and cover with grey primer.

http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_167469_langId_-1_categoryId_212459

Grolschevik · 13-05-2014 2:52am

I have to say, I'm intrigued by all the "Nah, not worth it on a car that old, mate" responses.

New tyres would come in at more than has been suggested here as a possible repair price.

By the same logic, should we not change tyres on an older car?

cletus · 13-05-2014 7:20am

Grolschevik wrote: »

I have to say, I'm intrigued by all the "Nah, not worth it on a car that old, mate" responses.

New tyres would come in at more than has been suggested here as a possible repair price.

By the same logic, should we not change tyres on an older car?

Wheel arch rust is a known problem on these cars. They start to rust from the inside out. If you can see a 2 inch gole from the outside, likely most of the wheel arch needs replacing. If one side is gone, the other will be very close behind.

A qoute of €200 to fix that side can be doubled to take the other side imto account, and thats not factoring in that the rust often spreads to the rear strut mounts and the sills.

New tyres for this car can be had for €50-60 a corner, so the repair work would be double that, for a car worth €600-700 at most anyway.

NobodyImportant · 13-05-2014 9:19am

Rust is always worse than what you see on the outside, take it to a garage, make sure its not spread to load points or suspension points, then just do a quick fix and get yourself another year or two out of it. It will eventually end up on the scrap heap, but bleed it first.

boatbuilder · 13-05-2014 9:36am

Grolschevik wrote: »

I have to say, I'm intrigued by all the "Nah, not worth it on a car that old, mate" responses.

New tyres would come in at more than has been suggested here as a possible repair price.

By the same logic, should we not change tyres on an older car?

Good tyres are pretty much essential for safety etc.

A "reasonable filler job" versus a "full-on welded repair job" is a different decision to make - its basically a cosmetic thing unless the rust is catastrophic!

NCT fail: "secondary structure corrosion"

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