Gaming KickStarter with a difference

Irish Halo · 12-06-2012 1:35pm #1

This in the right place?

There is a Kickstarter project looking into Tropes Vs Women in videogames (i.e. depictions of women in them and which categories they fall into). I personally think it is a really good idea and she only needed $6,000 to fund the research and make some videos. However it seems that some people disagreed and think she is a bolshevik feminist jewess that hates White people.

The attention has actually meant she has made ~$56,000 and can make 12 high quality videos and put together a curriculum studying the phenomenon.

It is usually hinted/mentioned in passing here on Boards that women in video games are poorly represented but what do we think of the backlash from the "gaming" community (I do not agree that the people making these comments represent the majority view or even a large minority). What is the trolls agenda? Is this 4chan/youtube culture? Should we just say "well that's 4Chan for you" or "It's youtube what do you expect?".

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 12-06-2012 1:38pm

i dont care about women in video games or women who play video games.

****ty characters bother me a little bit but games tend to have godawful plots anyway so bad characters fit fine with that.

These are the types of silencing tactics often used against women on the internet who dare to speak up. But don’t worry it won’t stop me!

they're also the type of silencing tactics used on everybody who posts anything on youtube. Fight on sister, fight on.

johnny_ultimate · 12-06-2012 1:40pm

Consistently fascinating topic, and worthy of research. I'm not 100% convinced Kickstarter is the right funding method for it, but over 2,000 funders disagree with me

Anyone 'backlashing' against this is, pure and simply, idiotic and should cop the **** on. The internet can be an embarrassing place. This is an issue that is holding back the so-called maturity of gaming, and I think well developed characters (male or female) are only to be encouraged, as is helping gaming become a friendly hobby for people of all identities.

Doctor DooM · 12-06-2012 1:45pm

As someone who is in the fighting game community and had to live through the embarrassingly cringeworthy Cross Assault fiasco, anything which forces gaming to look inwards and think about this is good.

As above though, bad characterisation, male or female, annoys me.

Twilightning · 12-06-2012 1:49pm

I'd be all for this if she wasn't asking for so much cash for a bloody video series and if she wasn't using videogames to push a feminist agenda. Both sexes are portrayed badly in every medium, especially videogames (How many Manly Death: Heterosexual Warfare shooters did you see at E3 alone this year?) but she's content just pushing the female aspect of it. There's many great examples of females done right in videogaming. Alyx from Half-Life 2, Faith from Mirror's Edge, Heather from Silent Hill 3, The Boss from Metal Gear Solid or even the way females are represented in the tactical shooter Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield; the only differences between operatives are voice related for death screams and issuing orders and slightly more feminine eyes, but both are decked out in full battledress and can carry the same equipment. However, she opens with the line "Ever notice that, with a few notable exceptions" which instantly means whatever argument you put forth to her and no matter what evidence you present, she'll be right anyway because good examples are just 'exceptions'.

I'll pass.

johnny_ultimate · 12-06-2012 1:53pm

As much as I'd disagree that videos are necessarily the correct medium for this 'research' (academic papers and journals are rigorous for a reason) strong female characters are exceptions. There are maybe 5-10 high-profile examples, but how insignificant is that percentage out of video gaming on the whole?

Of course mainstream film is bad too, especially Hollywood (those old-fashioned bastards). But gaming representations are still decades behind film.

Although the whole misogyny aspect amongst gaming communities is potentially the more fruitful research angle here, as it has a far more practical social implementation.

hooradiation · 12-06-2012 2:00pm

There's two issues here, really.

Firstly, the industry itself -
Unsurprisingly, the video game industry competes for dick dollars just like, for instance, the film, beer, and deodorant industries.
There's been a lot written about how the pursuit of dick dollars dominates the comic or video game worlds strictly because fans of those things sometimes demonstrate a pronounced disconnect from the rest of the world, and think that it's a phenomenon limited exclusively to the things they obsess over.

But really, changing the focus of the industry that isn't really something a lot of people are interested in, because it's a lot of work for rewards that aren't really guaranteed, and like any industry games are pretty risk adverse.

Secondly, the internet hullabaloo

Breaking news - nerds are terrible people, more at 11.

megaten · 12-06-2012 2:06pm

Sounds like a fine idea for research but this is really something that should be done in an academic setting with peer-review. Might not be as high profile as a video series but it'd be more beneficial in the long run. Still if people are willing to back it I don't see the harm. It's their money after all.

Magill · 12-06-2012 2:09pm

Sigh.......

Duggy747 · 12-06-2012 2:39pm

Bad characterisation, in general, makes me cringe hard in games but female characters don't tend to stray far from the "uber sexy with bizzare body proportions" types. Same can be said about male characters, too, who are walking pieces of meat mountains spitting out corny dialogue. It's old hat and juvenile at this point consider how "mature" the industry is supposed to have come in the past few years.

If the game is daft, with a daft story then these types of characters are at home. It's the "serious" games that let themselves down with poor characterisations.

It's an interesting and relevant topic considering the increasing amount of female gamers there are nowadays and how popular the industry has become but I think it would benefit more from academic studies rather than a series of videos.

hooradiation · 12-06-2012 2:59pm

I'm not sure why people are looking at what is planning to be a series of videos designed to raise awareness of this phenomenon and going "why not an academic study?"

Do you imagine one precludes the other?

the groutch · 12-06-2012 3:14pm

Sounds like something that Joan Burton or Ivana Bacik would do.

johnny_ultimate · 12-06-2012 3:19pm

If the intention is solely to raise public awareness, then yes an Internet video series is a suitable medium, although probably limited in its ability to open up the sensible discourse Sarkeesian intends (as the 'reactions' to the campaign have depressingly illustrated).

If the intention is to build a foundation that other researchers can build and expand upon, then a video series is unlikely to demonstrate the rigorous criteria that need to be applied to major research. Anyone who's ever suffered through Zeitgeist or a 9/11 conspiracy doc can attest to that.

They don't necessarily preclude each other, no. And academic research comes with all manner of ridiculous complications of its own. That said, internet videos haven't exactly proven themselves as a method of opening up worthwhile debate despite their wide reach and accessibility. Guess we can only wait and see how the videos turn out, and overall it's certainly a worthwhile project.

Shiminay · 12-06-2012 3:47pm

the groutch wrote: »

Sounds like something that Joan Burton or Ivana Bacik would do.

Care to elaborate? Seems like a curious statement. I'm interested in seeing why you think 2 politicians would want to make a video on computer gaming.

The video series is, I think, quite a good idea. It is the sort of thing that gets some notice and could well lead to a proper academic research, but as Johnny says, it's not exactly the best way to get it noticed by the right sorts of people to make a proper study happen.

VinLieger · 12-06-2012 3:50pm

Not a fan of this, saw it posted on Koatku earlier and apparently she has taken a ton of abuse over it. People abusing her because they disagree with her viewpoint is pretty bad but her argument is so poorly put together and militant feminist leaning that i have little sympathy.
Describing the protrayal of women in games as mysogenistic is so far reaching and complete bollox that i would strongly discourage anyone from supporting this as it is blatantly going to be a one sided viewpoint bashing the "male dominated industry".

http://kotaku.com/5917623/awful-things-happen-when-you-try-to-make-a-video-about-video-game-stereotypes

Alot of the comments in the kotaku article make for horrible reading but some of them bring up good points

hooradiation · 13-06-2012 4:49pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

If the intention is to build a foundation that other researchers can build and expand upon, then a video series is unlikely to demonstrate the rigorous criteria that need to be applied to major research.

Seeing as that's not a stated intent in the pitch video or on the kickstart page itself, I'm just fucking bemused as to why people are complaining about that.

Well, I'm not really, I know exactly where this fake concern is coming from, I'd just like to point it out for anyone who might think this is legitimate.

papajimsmooth · 13-06-2012 5:52pm

Gurl gamer xD

Twilightning · 13-06-2012 6:16pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE

I'm quite enjoying this video so far. She's raised nearly $100,000 for this project now. I think I need to lie down.

VinLieger · 13-06-2012 6:48pm

Twilightning wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE

I'm quite enjoying this video so far. She's raised nearly $100,000 for this project now. I think I need to lie down.

Exactly, shes already answered her own questions because of her own biased opinions on whether women are discriminated in games.
This is not a documentary, its a fluff piece to make her feel better about herself and get her some publicity and notoriety

hooradiation · 14-06-2012 12:05am

Twilightning wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igXz_hXKUcE

I'm quite enjoying this video so far. She's raised nearly $100,000 for this project now. I think I need to lie down.

He starts from a strawman and drills down.

AMAZING

johnny_ultimate · 14-06-2012 12:20am

I like the fact he begins by stating his fondness for Louis Theroux and then states his fondness for impartiality and objectivity in documentaries.

As entertaining as Theroux is in his own little way, no fledgling documentary maker should ever attempt to emulate his style. There are times even ol' biased Michael Moore wouldn't voice his disdain for his subjects in the way Theroux does.

hooradiation · 14-06-2012 12:22am

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I like the fact he begins by stating his fondness for Louis Theroux and then states his fondness for impartiality and objectivity in documentaries.

As entertaining as Theroux is in his own little way, no fledgling documentary maker should ever attempt to emulate his style. There are times even ol' biased Michael Moore wouldn't voice his disdain for his subjects in the way Theroux does.

My first and only experience with Louis Theroux was when he did an 'documentary' about swingers.
Entertaining he may be, but impartial? Get the fuck out of town.

johnny_ultimate · 14-06-2012 12:30am

I don't know if it's possible for a documentary maker to be completely impartial, unless they've had some sort of lobotomy. But there sure as hell are some who make a far better attempt at it. Citing frickin' Louis Theroux as your opening gambit in a video about impartiality over someone like, say, Errol Morris (who, at the very least, is able to make his thematic points without lecturing to the audience) pretty much renders any argument that follows null and void.

snausages · 28-08-2012 4:50pm

I'm looking forward to what she has to say, but something tells me it's not going to be a very balanced analysis. Already she's calling out games like Assassin's Creed 2 for being misogynistic, ignoring that it isn't really the place of historical fiction to be gender progressive. And besides, there are tons of strong female characters in AC as well.

What I'm most interested in seeing are all the other arguments and counter-arguments that pop up surrounding this.

Anyway, on her twitter she's been calling out Team Ico for misogyny. https://twitter.com/femfreq. I mean, it's been so long since I've played it but reading the posts I get the impression that any kind of representation of a weak woman in a video-game must be construed as sexist. It doesn't seem like she has played much either, wasn't there a super-powerful shadow witch in that game? And didn't Yorda have to use her powers to save the horned boy from the witch? It's all a bit foggy but that's how I remember it.

johnny_ultimate · 08-03-2013 6:26pm

The first video has been released, if anyone's still interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q

She's had to disable comments and likes on youtube. Whatever about the video (pretty standard stuff so far) but that fact is rather depressing.

Retr0gamer · 08-03-2013 7:03pm

She's kind of clutching at straws there. Hopefully she is a bit more objective in the second video, I'm more interested in games that get it right. It's also not just games that have the damsel in distress trope. In old games really it was a handy plot device that gave the player agency quickly so they could get to the gameplay.

As for her question about why developers don't show women in the lead role in games, it basically comes down to money.

If she ignores the Phantasy Star series when she mentions games that get it right I'll be very annoyed.

johnny_ultimate · 08-03-2013 7:40pm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

She's kind of clutching at straws there. Hopefully she is a bit more objective in the second video, I'm more interested in games that get it right. It's also not just games that have the damsel in distress trope. In old games really it was a handy plot device that gave the player agency quickly so they could get to the gameplay.

To be fair this part is very much scene-setting and an introduction to the ideas that are going to be discussed. No better place to start than two of the most established franchises in gaming though, and she does acknowledge that the captured damsel was primarily used as a cheap and cheerful inciting incident. I'm reluctant to comment much more until I see what else she comes out.

If she ignores the Phantasy Star series when she mentions games that get it right I'll be very annoyed.

There are plenty of positive example she can draw on to offer counter-arguments, Phantasy Star is just one of many potentially suitable candidates.

Pushtrak · 08-03-2013 7:52pm

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The first video has been released, if anyone's still interested:

YouTube video

She's had to disable comments and likes on youtube. Whatever about the video (pretty standard stuff so far) but that fact is rather depressing.

As soon as the video went live, that is how it was. Comments/ratings were never allowed. I got in early.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

If she ignores the Phantasy Star series when she mentions games that get it right I'll be very annoyed.

I wouldn't hold out for a "they got it right" aspect to her vids.

This is the person who thinks that Christmas songs are sexist, like the one "All I want for Christmas is you" amongst others. There are some stuff in this video that I didn't have a clue about, despite being aware of FeministFrequency on YouTube for quite a while. Worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpodGi3y_V0

Dravokivich · 08-03-2013 7:58pm

the groutch wrote: »

Sounds like something that Joan Burton or Ivana Bacik would do.

You don't seem to know much about Joan Burton. She thinks sexism is an issue for both sexes, unlike Ivana.

johnny_ultimate · 08-03-2013 8:04pm

Pushtrak wrote: »

As soon as the video went live, that is how it was. Comments/ratings were never allowed. I got in early.

I wouldn't hold out for a "they got it right" aspect to her vids.

This is the person who thinks that Christmas songs are sexist, like the one "All I want for Christmas is you" amongst others.

Oh yeah knew they were disabled from the outset. Just goes to show the crap she's had to deal with - even if YouTube comments were not going to be a source for sensible discourse anyway

Oh, and Baby It's Cold Outside is a disturbing piece of music about festive sexual assault :pac:

deathrider · 08-03-2013 8:09pm

Just spotted this video on youtube now. It's about time the videos came out, in fairness. It didn't shake me either way really. I was ready to either agree with her every word or attack her, but it just left me in the same position it found me in. Sitting in the middle, not really fighting for either side.

Probably a good thing that she blocked comments on the video though, because let's be honest, most youtubers are morons.

Retr0gamer · 08-03-2013 8:33pm

Maria getting punched in the stomach at the start of Double Dragon is iconic at this stage. Cutting it out is like having mario which no power up mushrooms.

deathrider · 08-03-2013 8:38pm

Any idea when her second video is due to hit the net?

Burning Eclipse · 08-03-2013 9:51pm

deathrider wrote: »

Any idea when her second video is due to hit the net?

At current pace, some time around late November.

Mark Hamill · 16-03-2013 3:10am

For the first bit its ok and her points have some merit but when she tries to turn the "damsel in distress" trope (sexist in that it's always a woman) into being sexist because its always about objectification I had to stop.

16-03-2013 3:32am

I just flicked through the first video and it's just her talking to a camera and then clips of games. Did I miss the interviews with industry players that would account for needing a kick starter for travel expenses? If it's just a homemade project, then she doesn't need the cash.

Pushtrak · 16-03-2013 1:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I just flicked through the first video and it's just her talking to a camera and then clips of games. Did I miss the interviews with industry players that would account for needing a kick starter for travel expenses? If it's just a homemade project, then she doesn't need the cash.

Did she say somewhere she was going to be having interviews with people? I didn't see her say anything of the sort. Or the opposite, but I had assumed it was a "hey, give me money so I can buy games to do videos about" type thing.

Myrddin · 16-03-2013 5:07pm

Pushtrak wrote: »

This is the person who thinks that Christmas songs are sexist, like the one "All I want for Christmas is you" amongst others.

Once it gets to nonsense like that, you know the person has a complex & it becomes less & less about feminism/equal rights etc

Pushtrak · 16-03-2013 5:19pm

I don't know if people watched the video I posted in #28, but one of the things that was mentioned there was how she went out of her way to get trolls to comment. It shows how she went to 4chan and posted about the series, and she used those comments at her TED talk. I'm sure people here know well enough about 4chan, but any person who goes to an online community and riles up members with anything, and then uses this as a "oh, look what they are saying about me" ought to not be taken too seriously on the trolling they get, be they male or female.

Twilightning · 16-03-2013 6:32pm

Some interesting follow up videos, the end of the first video summing up Anita's stances very bluntly but accurately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj29-hepBiA

SB2013 · 16-03-2013 11:57pm

I'm not sure how she will connect her theory to modern gaming. I think she has picked the worst time for it too. The most recent Tomb Raider really goes against everything she is saying. In addition there are so many games that allow the protagonist to be either gender that her study becomes more and more pointless. The Fem-Shep being the epitome of this.

If you look at some of the co-star female characters that have featured in the past years this also dampens her point. Glados, Jack, Tifa, Sarah Kerrigan, many of the female Resident Evil characters. All of which easily matched the role of their male counterparts. In fact both Tifa and Kerrigan had to rescue the male.

So while she may have a point that older games, mainly of Japanese origin, pigeon holed the womens roles I don't think she will be able to support that theory on modern games.

nesf · 17-03-2013 12:05am

I think people should remember that she is a pop feminist, a blogger, not a great thinker in the field. Is she popular? Yes, she's a lot easier than getting stuck into an academic argument about feminism.

Basically, don't expect a high degree of rigour in her arguments. Not that she won't make good points but if you go into her stuff expecting a discerning and subtle analysis of the predicament of women in video games you will be disappointed. If there aren't large gaping holes in this video series I'll be very surprised, if she doesn't make some good points I'll also be surprised.

Pushtrak · 17-03-2013 1:38am

SB2013 wrote: »

I'm not sure how she will connect her theory to modern gaming. I think she has picked the worst time for it too. The most recent Tomb Raider really goes against everything she is saying. In addition there are so many games that allow the protagonist to be either gender that her study becomes more and more pointless. The Fem-Shep being the epitome of this.

You see, you'd think this would be a counter point to what she says. I can't remember which video it was in, but I'm pretty sure it was one of the videos posted in this thread, either by me or another. Anyway, it shows her talking about strong female characters in games.

Her viewpoint is that even that isn't good enough. That such examples are women acting like men. That women should be nurturing, supportive, et cetera. It would take a while to try to find it, and right now I've got a couple of YT vids I've already got lined up to watch, and then I'll be getting back to Deus Ex Human Revolution, hopefully for a bit before some sleep. Though, who knows, I might just go through the vids fast and try find exactly where in the vid it was. Just in case I don't get to that too soon, at a hunch I think it is the thunderf00t one which is the 19 minute one that is posted in the one just before you I think. The 19 minute one. I'd seen it before, and a couple of other vids to her.

Edit: I played the thunderf00t one with the audio off, and was able to find the bit due to what is on the screen. I'd recommend watching all of the vid, but I've time stamped the highly relevant bit here. Seriously. I'll edit another bit at the end of my post. Go to 13:45 - 15:50 if you aren't going to watch it all.

nesf wrote: »

I think people should remember that she is a pop feminist, a blogger, not a great thinker in the field. Is she popular? Yes, she's a lot easier than getting stuck into an academic argument about feminism.

In fairness, I'd like a bit more than confirmation bias. If she actually does a video that articulates "here is what video games do right" I'll be very impressed.

Edit: I actually think feminism is necessary and a good thing. Though, I'd prefer humanism as a label. People being treated equally. Sarkeesian, though, should not be taken seriously.

snausages · 17-03-2013 10:17am

I don't think being a pop-critic puts her beyond criticism either. It annoys me that Ashley Graham from Resi 4 is one of her damsels in distress (at least in the little montage at the start of her video and in the TvW logo) when RE is a series which has arguably more strong female protagonists than male. Hell, in Code Veronica you spent half the game playing a chick trying to save a dude.

Pushtrak · 17-03-2013 2:32pm

For some reason, I get the feeling people here don't watch YouTube clips, so...

You see, if your research had included the masters thesis of the feminist Anita Sarkeesian… Oh, well, if your research had included your masters thesis I’ll make a man out of you: Strong Women in Science Fiction and Fantasy Television you’d have realised… I’ll let this guy explain.

She argued that strong, empowered female protagonists still aren’t feminists because they’re only pretending to be men. According to her, any character who shows strong leadership is only doing so in strictly a charade of strictly masculine traits. The second diagram illustrates what she wants TV to give her. Once again, she is at odds with herself. Notably she proposes significant positive feminine traits than masculine traits with women hilariously unable to show confidence or self control.

Not only that but strong is only a favourable attribute for the masculine.