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Bombs/Explosives/Landmines used by the Volunteers in 21

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  • 10-11-2015 1:24pm
    #1
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭


    I noticed during the last few months of the Anglo-Iriish war the Volunteers started using landmines & explosives an awful more & alot more effectively.

    Some examples

    1st February - Sean MacEoin he North Longford IRA attacked two lorries of Auxiliaries at the Clonfin Ambush. A landmine was exploded under the lorries, followed by a two-hour firefight. Four Auxiliaries and a driver were killed and eight wounded. The IRA volunteers captured 18 rifles, 20 revolvers and a Lewis Gun

    2nd of March 1921 - IRA fighters from the 2nd Cork Brigade and 2nd Kerry Brigade laid landmines near Millstreet. Thirteen British soldiers were killed and fifteen wounded when the landmine exploded under their lorry.

    There was a landmine used at Crossbarry.

    31st of May 1921 - IRA volunteers exploded a remotely detonated mine under a British Military band at Youghal Co. Cork. Seven British soldiers (military bandsmen from Hampshire regiment) were killed, twenty more were wounded in the explosion.

    16 of June 1921 - An IRA ambush was mounted at Rathcoole near, Banteer, Co.Cork Landmines were exploded under three lorries, killing two Auxiliaries and wounding four.

    23 of June 1921 - IRA volunteers ambushed a troop train between Adavoyle and Jonesborough in. Armagh. A mine was exploded under the train, derailing it and killing four soldiers of the 10th Royal Hussar cavalry regiment, two drivers and 63 horses. British troops conducted a sweep of the area and shot dead one local man when he failed to stop when challenged.

    Another there was another incident were seven Black & Tans (specifically) were killed somtime between March & June of 21 put I cant find the website.

    If there had been no truce do people see explosives being used more & more often as a natural progression?

    Also is it not a bit hypocritical by leinster house to celebrate these men & call them heroes for these actions but call the Provos & INLA terrorists?
    2nd of March 21 not all that different to Narrow Water,
    31st of May not to different to Deal Barracks.
    23 of June not to different to Hyde Park -


    To show you what I mean 23 of June Adavoyle train ambush.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NJl9c4yuxQ


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    #2
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    My great grandad was actually a bomb disposal expert stationed in the phoenix park (in the early 1900s I think), so he would have just retired by the time that lot of boyo's started their "fun and games" with landmines, mills bombs, fertiliser bombs? & the like.


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    #3
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    LordSutch wrote: »
    My great grandad was actually a bomb disposal expert stationed in the phoenix park (in the early 1900s I think), so he would have just retired by the time that lot of boyo's started their "fun and games" with landmines, mills bombs, fertiliser bombs? & the like.


    Which boyos? The 1921 boyos or the civil war boyos?

    Out of interest what type of bombs would he have been disposing of in the early 1900's in Dublin?


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    #4
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    Which boyos? The 1921 boyos or the civil war boyos?

    Out of interest what type of bombs would he have been disposing of in the early 1900's in Dublin?

    Yeah, I've always wondered about his job as a bomb disposal expert based in the park! Specially as you say, in the early 1900s, but that's what he did, unless of course he was active into the early 1920s, but then I don't think that makes sense if you take age etc into account? :cool:

    Must do more digging to clarify dates. Either way, any bombs/munitions knocking around or deliberately planted would have been dealt with by him and his team, based as they were in the Phoenix park.


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    #5
    Jesus.
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    LordSutch wrote: »
    My great grandad was actually a bomb disposal expert stationed in the phoenix park (in the early 1900s I think), so he would have just retired by the time that lot of boyo's started their "fun and games" with landmines, mills bombs, fertiliser bombs? & the like.

    Why do you have to weigh in with your Unionist nonsense when the OP was asking about the type of explosives, not a political point?

    As usual, the British Army "Boyo's" fun and games with all sorts of bombs get a free pass from your good self.


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    #6
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    not a great deal of detail but a small article re munitions manufacture

    http://antoglach.militaryarchives.ie/PDF/1923_06_02_No_08_Vol_1_An_t-Oglac-8.pdf


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    #7
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,150 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Yeah, I've always wondered about his job as a bomb disposal expert based in the park! Specially as you say, in the early 1900s, but that's what he did, unless of course he was active into the early 1920s, but then I don't think that makes sense if you take age etc into account? :cool:

    Must do more digging to clarify dates. Either way, any bombs/munitions knocking around or deliberately planted would have been dealt with by him and his team, based as they were in the Phoenix park.
    "Bomb disposal", back in the 1900s, would mainly have concerned itself about dealing with unexploded shells - shells the enemy has fired at you but that have not detonated, or shells that have become lodged in the breech of your own weapons that . They wouldn't really have been thinking about booby-traps as their main line of work but no doubt, if that did come up, they would be called upon.

    If they were based in the Phoenix Park, it's not because the Park was awash eithe with booby-traps or with dangerous unstable ordnance. There were several military installations in or near the Park, including of course the Magazine Fort, which I imagine was under the control of some Ordnance or Artillery branch within the army. It's not implausible that it would be used as the depot and training base for those whose job was dealing with unexploded and unstable ordnance. Or, maybe the bomb disposal guys were under the management of the Ordnance Board, and perhaps they shared accommodation with the Ordnance Survey (at the time, also under the management of the Ordnance Board).


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    #8
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Thanks for that Peregrinus. If only I could quiz my Dad, but he's long gone, as are the rest of that generation, so I don't know who to find out the detail from. It is good however to hear that there was indeed somekind of operation either inside the Phoenix park, or nearby.

    If I find out I'll post on here.


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    #9
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    "Bomb disposal", back in the 1900s, would mainly have concerned itself about dealing with unexploded shells - shells the enemy has fired at you but that have not detonated, or shells that have become lodged in the breech of your own weapons that . They wouldn't really have been thinking about booby-traps as their main line of work but no doubt, if that did come up, they would be called upon.

    If they were based in the Phoenix Park, it's not because the Park was awash eithe with booby-traps or with dangerous unstable ordnance. There were several military installations in or near the Park, including of course the Magazine Fort, which I imagine was under the control of some Ordnance or Artillery branch within the army. It's not implausible that it would be used as the depot and training base for those whose job was dealing with unexploded and unstable ordnance. Or, maybe the bomb disposal guys were under the management of the Ordnance Board, and perhaps they shared accommodation with the Ordnance Survey (at the time, also under the management of the Ordnance Board).

    What enemy did British have in the early 1900's tho who's shells could have reached Dublin? The Boers shells surely couldn't have reached Dublin from South Africa could they?


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    #10
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,150 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    What enemy did British have in the early 1900's tho who's shells could have reached Dublin? The Boers shells surely couldn't have reached Dublin from South Africa could they?
    British Army training depots, supply bases, headquarters, etc were located throughout the UK. If bomb disposal sappers were based and trained in Dublin, it wasn't because they expected Dublin to be shelled. It was because it was a convenient place to base them, and train them. The practice was that every unit had a home base for recruitment, training, supply, etc, and then when people were trained and supplied they were available for posting to where they were needed.


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    #11
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    Royal Engineer Sappers took on bomb disposal etc in WW2.

    Before then there were Ammunition Inspectors with the Army Ordnance Corps. Focused on supply and quality of munitions. These formed part of the nucleus of a bomb disposal group in WW1 (lots and lots of dud shells leading to the Shell Scandal of 1915). Sort of linked in with Home Office inspectors who dealt with explosive inspections in mines, quarries and factories e.g. Kynoch factory in Co Wicklow.

    The Magazine Fort in Phoenix Park was an Army Ordnance Corps establishment before WW1 having previously been under the control of the Chapelizod based Royal Irish Artillery and later Royal Artillery.

    I don't believe that there were bomb disposal personnel as we would think of them before WW1.

    Worth mentioning that the National Shell Factory was established by the Phoenix Park at Parkgate in 1916 though not sure if bomb disposal personnel would have been needed. Inspectors probably.


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    #12
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    This is all interesting info but I was more wondering about the explosives produced by the Volunteers & the progression of them during the 1919 -21 conflict especially the latter part. What type of chemicals did they use, why they were used more towards the end, what was the quality of them etc....


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    #13
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,150 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    My great uncle was a pharmacist, and also a Volunteer. He prepared explosives for the Volunteers, and various members of his family acted as couriers to deliver them.

    Sadly, I have no idea how he prepared the explosives, and as he is dead now I cannot ask him.

    A wild guess would say that in the years after 1918 Europe was awash with explosives, and with precursor materials from which explosives could be prepared, so they probably weren't hard to come by. Many Volunteers were ex-servicemen, and would have some notion where and how these supplies were stored, or would have contacts and connections through which they could find out. It isn't beyond the bounds of possibility that some of the material used by the volunteers to make bombs, etc, was simply stolen from the Crown forces.


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    #14
    johnny_doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    2 1916 volunteers employed at the above mentioned National Shell Factory were Joe Good (electrician) and Matt Furlong (engineer)

    Furlong and his brother were involved in the improvised munitions factory at 198 Parnell St making grenades and a large mortar. Furlong was killed as a result of an explosion while testing the mortar.


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