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19-05-2014, 08:07   #2881
Pulidog
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How Legal?

Having successfully installed Saorsat at home and enjoyed watching TV from Ireland over the past year or so, I have been approached by a friend of a friend, who would like me to set up Saorsat for him.

Whilst I would have no issue with setting up the system for him, he owns a pub and probably would show GAA, Rabo, Heiniken Cup, League of Ireland, and whatever other sport might be available on RTE & TG4, if the demand was there from his pub patrons. I also understand that there may be some demand for some TG4 output as some of his customers are keen on Traditional music. I don't think they will be queueing out the door to watch Fair City, but you never know?

I know there is some European directive on broadcasting across the continent, but as other bodies may have the rights to these programmes in the UK, does anyone know what sort of legal position would my 'friend of a friend' be in for showing these programmes and would I have any liability as the installer (albeit on a DIY basis).

Some advice would be greatly appreciated.
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19-05-2014, 09:09   #2882
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Originally Posted by Pulidog View Post
I know there is some European directive on broadcasting across the continent, but as other bodies may have the rights to these programmes in the UK, does anyone know what sort of legal position would my 'friend of a friend' be in for showing these programmes and would I have any liability as the installer (albeit on a DIY basis).

Some advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cross-border/overspill terrestrial/satellite reception is perfectly legal under Article 3 of the AVMS Directive provided you're not circumventing any encryption.

This from the EBU website
Quote:
For the field of broadcasting this partial lack of EU harmonization has not yet created any difficulties, since the mere reception of a broadcast in another country, e.g. via terrestrial overspill (which occurs in all transmissions by national broadcasters), is not a relevant act under copyright law. In fact, for satellite broadcasts it is the very purpose of the injection rule in the Sat/Cab Directive to confirm that this problem is practically obsolete. If the satellite broadcast of a programme is lawful under an exception in accordance with the law of the country of injection, reception of that broadcast in the rest of the satellite footprint cannot be prohibited - at least not for copyright reasons.

http://www3.ebu.ch/files/live/sites/...at%20model.pdf
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19-05-2014, 09:49   #2883
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Thanks for the prompt reply. I've clicked on the link and tried to quickly scan through the document but, as I get confused reading the back of the Cornflakes box, I soon got lost in the mire of legalese.
Does this mean, for example, if, say, Premier Sports have the rights to broadcast GAA in the UK, and my friend of a friend uses Saorsat to show the game in his premises, as he is receiving a FTA signal, he is not infringing Premiers rights. or if Sky have the rights for Heinikin Cup and he shows the same game using Saorsat, he is free to do so without the heavies beating down his doors.
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19-05-2014, 10:49   #2884
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Originally Posted by Pulidog View Post
Does this mean, for example, if, say, Premier Sports have the rights to broadcast GAA in the UK, and my friend of a friend uses Saorsat to show the game in his premises, as he is receiving a FTA signal, he is not infringing Premiers rights. or if Sky have the rights for Heinikin Cup and he shows the same game using Saorsat, he is free to do so without the heavies beating down his doors.
That would be my understanding.
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19-05-2014, 11:28   #2885
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Here in Swansea there are two irish pubs that use saorsat,to show the GAA games with no problems.They have been doing it for quite some months.
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19-05-2014, 16:40   #2886
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Again, Thanks for the prompt reply.


There was a case a couple of years ago where some landlady, here in the UK, sortof won the right to show Premier League games using a sat box and card from a greek supplier but not completely, there were some restrictions or issues due to copyright and rights issues.

In this case, my friends friend would be showing a FTA broadcast. Surely this is no different to the situation in Ireland where most homes can receive Freesat and there is duplicity of programmes e.g. Coronation Street on ITV and RTE or Eastenders on BBC and RTE

Or, because sports bodies sell their broadcast rights to specific broadcast entities in particular geographic regions, e.g. GAA and Premier Sports, can those broadcast entities claim exclusive geographic rights, regardless of means of reception.
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20-05-2014, 13:14   #2887
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I think she was "cheating" by using a Domestic Subscription rather than Commercial. If she had been either using it only at home or paying for a Commercial sub she would have been

It's irrelevant to this question as it was Encrypted Pay TV. The "Sans Frontiers" is about Free To Air Over Spill. Her defence was on pan European Union market for Goods and Services, though you are allowed to only sell to a particular Geographic region you are not allowed to prevent the customer "taking it home". Thus buying a Full UK Sky Sub or Freesat From Sky "sub", you can do that personally in UK and take it to Spain or Ireland for Private use and you are breaking no law. But if a 3rd party sells you a Sky Card that is theft of the card as they only bought use of it. Also it can contravene Sky's Contract so they are entitled to cease the service and refund any outstanding subscription.

So don't conflate Free To Air ( No viewing card or encryption), Commercial Pay TV or Private Pay TV. Note the "Freesat from Sky" card is Private Pay TV with just one payment. It's not FTA TV. Viewing card and sometimes Pay TV boxes (UPC) are always property of Pay TV provider or their card provider. Rights Holders can only directly "interfere" with Encrypted/Pay TV. The only jurisdiction they have is their contract with Broadcaster where the "overspill" is taken into account or has to be Reasonable (Hence UK main channels don't broadcast on 19E to all of Western Europe, But Irish coverage is OK, 85% of Irish Viewers had ITV before Digital Satellite, for Irish Broadcasters the Satellite overspill to UK must be comparable to that with a TV aerial.)

Last edited by watty; 20-05-2014 at 13:19.
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20-05-2014, 13:15   #2888
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Originally Posted by Pulidog View Post
Again, Thanks for the prompt reply.

In this case, my friends friend would be showing a FTA broadcast. Surely this is no different to the situation in Ireland where most homes can receive Freesat and there is duplicity of programmes e.g. Coronation Street on ITV and RTE or Eastenders on BBC and RTE.
It's actually TV3 that provides the Irish Rights to Coronation Street now, not RTE.

TV3/3E is not available on Saorsat due to TV3 not paying their transmission fees.

I was thinking that had probably slipped your mind by then. Anyway, No worries.
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20-05-2014, 16:18   #2889
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Watty,

Thank you Watty, for your reply. Your advice, and the work you contributed to Techtir, was invaluable when I was setting up my own system when Saorsat first started broadcasting.
I am well outside any Saorview terrestrial reception area, and could be deemed to be on the fringes of Saorsat Satellite footprint.
So I can take it, with some surity, that as long as I'm receiving a FTA signal, it is legal for my friends friend to show the programmes available on Saorsat, regardless that the rights to show that programme in the uk may be owned by a subscription service.

Dublinman1990,

I stand corrected, thank you. TBH I don't watch either show and haven't done so since Ken Barlow divorced Angie Watts

John896,

It's good to hear that you have such wise and wonderful barlords in Swansea.

The Cush,

Thank you for doing the research and digging out the information you provided. You must have incredible patience to have read through all of that legal waffle. My head hurt after 5 minutes.
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20-05-2014, 18:49   #2890
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I guess RTE will never bother to launch RTE1HD on Saorsat. I really can't see why they bothered with it as a service, it is a waste of money, No TV3/3e, requires a 1 to 1.2metre dish in areas like Kerry & Donegal, has no Digital MHEG5 teletext. I think it is fair comment that Saorsat thus far is a complete and utter waste of time, money and resources by RTENL or 2RN as they are known now.
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20-05-2014, 23:36   #2891
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Serves me fine, allowing me to record on my Humax, with some limitations, but happy with it
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09-06-2014, 03:53   #2892
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Looks like someone in East Anglia in England has somehow been able to pick up the Saorsat transponder on a 90cm dish...


http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/t...tprint.161940/
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09-06-2014, 03:53   #2893
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Looks like someone in East Anglia in England has somehow been able to pick up the Saorsat transponder on a 90cm dish...


http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/t...tprint.161940/
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09-06-2014, 10:02   #2894
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It would seem that the Jamming transponder wasn't active and now the Saorsat signal is being jammed again.
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09-06-2014, 15:04   #2895
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There is no "jamming". Beacons and Telemetry are not jamming.
There isn't any reason to expect coverage at all outside the publish spots.

Any claim of "jamming" is ill-informed and tantamount to libel. Obviously all 82 spots may not be fully utilised at all times.

Read again how it works!
http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage

Also any spot beam has side lobes.

There is as much point to trying to get Saorsat much outside of the service area as to receive Crystal Palace DTT transmitter in Dublin.

The main purpose of Saortsat is probably to provide backup feeds to DTT transmitters, giving coverage to people without DTT is a bonus.

It's puzzling though that there isn't RTE1 HD, perhaps for back up feed purposes the SD is deemed enough given the lack of much real HD content on RTE1.

Last edited by watty; 09-06-2014 at 15:07.
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