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DB want to run buses past 11:30pm but DoT won't let them?

  • 29-03-2011 9:42pm
    #1
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭


    Such an assertion was made recently here, by another poster:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71398088&postcount=26
    Losty Dublin wrote:
    Dublin Bus hasn't been granted permission by the Department of Transport to run buses any later than they currently do. This is in spite of agreement on same from staff, management and unions and a desire by the company to offer service beyond 23:30 as is the current state of play.

    Has anyone else heard of such a thing? Has anyone any actual evidence to back it up, or is it a bloke down the pub told me story?


Comments

  • #2
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,035 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I imagine it was the case in the past when they weren't allowed run the Nitelink as a subsidised service. Not sure it applies now as they're allowed run the Nitelink under a PSO.


  • #3
    Conway635
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 400 ✭✭Conway635


    Yes - though this happened quite some time ago.

    Dublin Bus were refused permission for a revamp of the 746, which would have seen it provide a full stopping service (i.e. not Nitelink style express) 24 hours a day with quite a bump up on the daytime frequency.

    Seven new buses (AV352-358) were stored at Donnybrook when new at the end of 2003 in preparation for the launch of this expanded service. Eventually, when the DoT refused to grant the change (perhaps fearing a complaint from another operator) the buses were released into into service as fleet replacement units instead of extras.

    C635


  • #4
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Were there any normal bus routes though other than a special airport service that the company wanted to operate after hours and permission was refused?


  • #5
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Were there any normal bus routes though other than a special airport service that the company wanted to operate after hours and permission was refused?

    Yes indeed Foggy_Lad there was.(although the "new" 746 was to be a full ordinary service)

    Local management in Donnybrook intended to revamp and run the 7/7A on a 24 hour basis to co-incide with the (belated) opening of the Rock Road QBC.

    Whilst the proposals were discussed and the intial plans made it seems the DoT had (and continue to have) "issues" over "Consolidation of a dominant position in the market".

    There were hopes that the NTA would make some early moves to allow such operation (I understand the 16/16A was one other candidate) but so far that has not occured.

    Since the Company has already got the working arrangements and internal procedures in-place it seems strange that these are not being utilized to the full. :confused:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #6
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The obvious problem would seem to be that in a situation where peak and daytime services are being reduced and customer numbers are falling, it would make little sense to open up new services which will themselves demand investment and subsidy. Added to that is the fact that there already is an adequate service to the main destination on the route, the airport. What would actually be gained from spending subsidy money on this?


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  • #7
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Local management in Donnybrook intended to revamp and run the 7/7A on a 24 hour basis to co-incide with the (belated) opening of the Rock Road QBC.

    Would not have happened, too many militant locals would have blocked it for noise reasons along certain roads, Churchview Road included. Churchview Road residents have already forced Tesco to only supply Ballybrack from one end and their trucks are banned from further up the road for the same noise reasons.

    Pity but I honestly see that's what would happen, my mother would make sure of it anyway:rolleyes:


  • #8
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Local management in Donnybrook intended to revamp and run the 7/7A on a 24 hour basis to co-incide with the (belated) opening of the Rock Road QBC.
    Are local management allowed to decide what routes run and when? Surely this doesn't lead to joined-up thinking?

    What irks me most is none of this has ever been tried. Run 24 hour services for a year and then fine tune them.


  • #9
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,210 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The issue is Dublin Bus can't get a license to run services after 11:30pm. The 746 proposal would have heavily impacted on Aircoach and its numerous routes in south Dublin as it would conflict in part with nearly every route they have.

    Nitelink is covered by the Dublin Bus / NTA contract but are not considered PSO routes. PSO implies free travel pass is accepted, which Nitelink does not. PSO does not imply that a route is state subsidised either. Nitelink appeared as a desperate move in 1991 to cope with getting people home, at the time Dublin had less than 3,000 taxis and post closing time was turning messy. Several private operators did get routes allocated, Finnegans of Bray in particular which explains why there was never a 45N and why the 84N takes such a ridiculous routing

    Similarly the Veoila / Luas / RPA contract requires service till 00:30, any extra services beyond that are at the operators risk and outside the PSO supports. That said the Luas has a 24 hour operating license


  • #10
    Michael Collins
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 1,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael Collins


    I seem to recall the 75 timetabled as leaving Dun Laoghaire at 00:10 on a Sunday night/Monday morning. Not a 24 hour service but well past 23:30 - was there any special reason for this?


  • #11
    thomasj
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Its a strange one allright!

    I always thought it was buses from the other commuter belt (maynooth, celbridge, skerries, Bray, kilcoole,rathcoole etc) but the last 37 leaves the outer terminus at 23:45

    This annoys me as when I get the train home I need to connect with the 39. When the last maynooth train reaches clonsilla the. last 39 has gone! Having a 23.45 39 like the 37 would have been ideal for me!


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  • #12
    Vic_08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    The obvious problem would seem to be that in a situation where peak and daytime services are being reduced and customer numbers are falling, it would make little sense to open up new services which will themselves demand investment and subsidy. Added to that is the fact that there already is an adequate service to the main destination on the route, the airport. What would actually be gained from spending subsidy money on this?

    Aircoach only cater for passengers to/from DAP, this would have provided for all other journeys on the route as well as giving Airport passengers a much cheaper alternative.

    Being an Airport route it would have guaranteed a certain revenue return while allowing the rest of the route give a good indication of when and where a 24 hour regular service is viable in Dublin if at all.

    You are right of course about the current situation, with numbers falling and a general move toward reductions across the board now is a terrible time to be experimenting with new services which would inevitably take time to build up passengers.

    As has been said ad nauseum the previous government truly pissed away the boom and the open opportunity to revolutionise public transport along with countless other sectors. Any improvements now that require investment are faced with an uphill struggle to get off the ground.


  • #13
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    Aircoach only cater for passengers to/from DAP, this would have provided for all other journeys on the route as well as giving Airport passengers a much cheaper alternative.

    Being an Airport route it would have guaranteed a certain revenue return while allowing the rest of the route give a good indication of when and where a 24 hour regular service is viable in Dublin if at all.

    You are right of course about the current situation, with numbers falling and a general move toward reductions across the board now is a terrible time to be experimenting with new services which would inevitably take time to build up passengers.

    As has been said ad nauseum the previous government truly pissed away the boom and the open opportunity to revolutionise public transport along with countless other sectors. Any improvements now that require investment are faced with an uphill struggle to get off the ground.

    From memory,I recall the Department of Transport`s reasoning for what was a last-minute reversal of it`s previous positive soundings was it`s "concerns" that the 746 expansion/improvement "could" lead to claims of it (The Dept) sanctioning an expansion of Market Dominance on the part of Dublin Bus.

    It was never revealed just where these last-minute concerns emanated from or whether it was an internal Departmental loss of enthusiasm for the plan.

    Either way,Dublin`s Public Transport users lost out yet again.

    As for the broader issue of the 24 hour services,I actually do believe that now is the time to be advancing with the principle.

    With private motoring costs increasing allied to the ever more stringent drink-driving laws and with the ever present amount of people who do work shift patterns,it has never been a better environment for such action.

    Remember too,that there are no cost-increasing issues for Dublin Bus as the HR and IR agreements are in place so it`s simply down to having a management focused on opportunity rather than downsizing and hidden service cuts as exemplified by the current Network Direct "Improvements".

    NItelink as a concept is a busted flush,it`s no longer catering for the Public Transport requirements of the nocturnal City,and they do exist.

    I would contend that a 1 hour basic service on at least 5 Trunk Routes would be a good place to start,supplemented as required by a Nitelink Express service at weekends.

    We need to start responding to the developing public-transport requirements of Depression era Dublin in innovative ways rather than taking-to-the -bed and pulling down the blinds as we currently are doing.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #14
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I agree with the generality of your argument.

    However, there would be an increase in costs. There would be more hours worked and there would be more diesel consumed. Vehicles would also depreciate faster and require more maintenance and cleaning.

    I don't know the IR agreements in detail, but if you wanted to set up a route for 24 hour running, you would have quite different shift patterns, with a different proportion of split shifts. Also, drivers would generally speaking have to have far more flexible shift patterns, since it would not be acceptable to have the same drivers working the night shifts for a long continuous period. I cannot see how it would not have ramifications.

    Your point about the cost of motoring is absolutely excellent and I agree with it. The only problem with it is that the plain people of Ireland don't agree with us, and are using buses 20 percent less than they did three years ago. I can only think they behave like this because they do not consider the service adequate to their needs.

    In order to fix this, the service needs to fundamentally change.


  • #15
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    <snip>
    As for the broader issue of the 24 hour services,I actually do believe that now is the time to be advancing with the principle.

    With private motoring costs increasing allied to the ever more stringent drink-driving laws and with the ever present amount of people who do work shift patterns,it has never been a better environment for such action.<snip>
    EXACTLY.

    Air coach is stone useless for people who are working late at the airport. Invariably these people working late are also probably not on the highest of wages, so the 7 or 8 euros that aircoach charges, is also hefty 5 days a week, 20 days a month (to get you to or from town ONLY - which is not where all airport workers live!).

    A big problem I would guess/ suggest is that the well paid civil servant is in a different world than the lowly shift worker, the cleaner that works till 2 in the morning, every morning, cleaning in a pub or office block after hours for minimum wage.
    The civil servants who were veto-ing these late services are not regularily downtown late at night so it wouldnt affect them personally. And when they are the odd time in town or the airport, they can well afford a taxi.
    Or - which is more likely - if in town after the last busses would be departing, they will simply walk to their free parking space provded to them in the city centre and drive home themselves (in a car that a shift worker couldnt afford, let alone park)
    And the next morning, drive again to work.
    Obvlious to the lot of commuters.

    But thats grand, 'cos it WASNT their job to look after commuters, not understand their suffering.
    They were simply there to make sure the dept or CIE doesnt get sued for providing expansive (or connecting linked up) services that might raise the slightest HINT of putting out a private operator.

    And it took from 1932 to now to come in with a commuter centred licencing regime!!
    inept, "it was only resting in my account", politicans :mad:


  • #16
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I understand that there is a staff fare on the Aircoach for people working in the Airport. Airport shift workers are pretty well served by public transport compared to other categories of shift workers.


  • #17
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,494 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    I understand that there is a staff fare on the Aircoach for people working in the Airport. Airport shift workers are pretty well served by public transport compared to other categories of shift workers.
    Yeah, multi-journey tickets are available at less than half price.


  • #18
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,589 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Michael Collins wrote: »
    I seem to recall the 75 timetabled as leaving Dun Laoghaire at 00:10 on a Sunday night/Monday morning. Not a 24 hour service but well past 23:30 - was there any special reason for this?

    The last buses back to the designated "start" end of the journey often leave well after 23:30, the last 66 is midnight from Maynooth - but terminates at Parkgate Street.


  • #19
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,943 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The last "normal" bus anywhere in Dublin is the last 65 inbound (00:00 ex-Ballymore on Monday to Friday nights, 00:10 ex-Blessington on Saturday nights, and 00:05 ex-Blessington on Sunday nights), which doesn't get back into Dublin city centre until roughly 01:00 - handy to remember if you're along that corridor!


  • #20
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    goingnowhere wrote: »

    Nitelink is covered by the Dublin Bus / NTA contract but are not considered PSO routes. PSO implies free travel pass is accepted, which Nitelink does not.
    PSO does not imply that a route is state subsidised either.

    Being a PSO route or not has nothing in particular to do with accepting the travel pass.

    If a route is PSO it means that it is part of a network of routes which are subsidised as a whole. Some PSO routes are certainly massively profitable. Which are subsidised and which are profitable is a carefully guarded secret.


  • #21
    saeglopur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭saeglopur


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    I understand that there is a staff fare on the Aircoach for people working in the Airport. Airport shift workers are pretty well served by public transport compared to other categories of shift workers.

    if your on the air coach route maybe. Majority of airport workers live locally North and South of the Airport and so are nowhere near the aircoach route. l They are in the same boat as everyone else.

    First morning shifts for the various airlines begin at 0300 while there is no real bus service to the airport until after 0700. In those 4 hours I reckon that there is upwards of 500 people who begin their working day, 95% of whom are making individual journeys to the airport. Add to that, at least 5,000 passengers departing on flights in that time span and you realise that the aircoach isnt enough.

    Also numerous flights arrive/shifts end after the last bus leaves at 2310.

    Always pisses me off that the buses on the airport route work within the same time schedule as those on other routes. Assumed it was union issues but looks like I was wrong. thanks for the info


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  • #22
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I think you are basically correct about early morning services on DB.

    Urbus runs to the airport from fairly early.

    http://www.urbus.ie/urbus_2011_tt.html

    Before 4am there is not that much trade from what I understand.

    As you say, this is great if you are on the route but not much good if you are not.

    There have been some efforts made by the LA to deal with this.

    Generally speaking, the airport discourages buses from servicing the airport. A well located bus stop costs tens or hundreds of thousands of euros per year to rent. The coach park is different, but it is quite remote.

    Other shift workers aren't catered for at all, or are hardly catered for. I am thinking of the likes of Blanchardstown.


  • #23
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,943 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Michael Collins wrote: »
    I seem to recall the 75 timetabled as leaving Dun Laoghaire at 00:10 on a Sunday night/Monday morning. Not a 24 hour service but well past 23:30 - was there any special reason for this?

    You may be getting mixed up with a short working on the 46a to Donnybrook Garage?

    The last 75 westbound was always at about 22:30 until the last timetable change. There certainly were never any at 00:10.


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