How to stop the (aid) flotilla - The theories

Nody · 31-05-2010 4:14pm #1

Ok, the other thread is running away with accusations flying all ways around but I thought I'd take a step out from it to try to start a seperate sane discussion (I know, I know but humour me, ok?).

How would you stop the flotilla going to Gaza (you're presenting your idea to the head of state for the sake of argument):

Here's the rules:
1) You have to stop the flottila some how
2) You can not opt to lift the Gaza blocade (political impossible)
3) You can not debate the right or wrong of the existing event
4) You can not discuss the general Israel/Gaza/Palestinia/Hamas issue

So what would you suggest?

Personally? I'd probably try to turn the pr coup of it around:

1) Stop them inside the 24 nautical mile limit (gives legal credence to the action)
2) Use only female troopers for the assault (makes it harder to talk about big bad commandos)
3) Use teargas for dispersion before jumping down (effectively removing/greatly reducing any chance for resistance)
4) Include a television team (reporters in the field bonded makes the best pro your side reporters after all) who preferably has been there from the start of training for the assault (more bonding and lots of material for a documentary about it)
5) Go in with limited live ammunition weapons (second wave only)

Alternatively I'd go for the propellers with nets; simply drop fishing nets at the back until they are snuggly stuck and the boats are not going any where and then be so kind and escort them in to the harbor (once again with that TV team at hand).

So how would you suggest to stop the convoy?

BluePlanet · 31-05-2010 4:20pm

The best way would be to allow the aid in.

Put UN troops at the harbour, have them assist the boats docking and start the unloading.
That way they could inspect the aid for weapons/explosives as it arrives and not delay it so much that it becomes political.

Allow a UN team to distribute.

gandalf · 31-05-2010 4:21pm

Not go in with all guns blazing would be a damn good start and board them within 24 nautical mile limit.

partyguinness · 31-05-2010 4:24pm

Just dont let them dock....

Christ, I mean it's not like a "24" episode...it's not like the Aid workers were primed with rocket launchers and AKs with an attack imminent!!

Israel was just saying to the world..."Anymore tricks like this...and you know what's waiting. What the fcuk do we care about international laws and Conventions. You should know that by now."

Prufrock · 31-05-2010 5:14pm

Nody wrote: »

2) Use only female troopers for the assault (makes it harder to talk about big bad commandos)

Female commandos can shoot you just as dead.

Selkies · 31-05-2010 5:29pm

Female soldiers make bad press for the government if/when they get injured.

It's a lot easier to control the aid coming in if it only comes in through land.

I would have thought the best way was to board the ship, but that obviously didn't work out. So I'm not sure I can think of a way without loss of life.

If you ram the ship they might keep going anyway and people will probably be injured.

You could try and sink the ship but same problems with loss of life.

You could fire warning shots but most likely they would just ignore them.

So yeah boarding the ship probably was the best plan. Maybe warn the guys who are about to board that there will probably be some resistance is the only thing I can think of that would have reduced bloodshed.

johnnyskeleton · 31-05-2010 5:49pm

Massive taxes for docking making it impractical to ship into Gaza when it is a lot cheaper to go through Israeli channels.

Not saying I'd support this, but really there are plenty of non-violent ways of restricting trade and shooting them is over the top.

Scofflaw · 31-05-2010 6:52pm

Do not drop your people in individually by helicopter - board them very obviously from other vessels in a clearly defined group. Do block the ships with other civilian vessels if necessary - make it necessary for the convoy's vessels to commit damage in Israeli waters.

In short, do it the way police actions are supposed to be done.

cordially,
Scofflaw

peasant · 31-05-2010 6:59pm

THIS apparently is Gaza Harbour.

There is a narrow entrance and one pier for unloading. You moor one big-ass frigate across the entrance and tell the flotilla to PFO.

The rest is up to the diplomats, no need for violence.

Victor · 31-05-2010 8:07pm

peasant wrote: »

THIS apparently is Gaza Harbour.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Gaza+Strip&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=25.900485,47.460937&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Gaza+Strip&ll=31.525416,34.430616&spn=0.006786,0.019784&t=h&z=16

Nody wrote: »

So what would you suggest?

As there were substantial precedent for it, I would consider invading that part of Gaza. Alternatively, sink the ships in shallow waters.

1) Stop them inside the 24 nautical mile limit

Genuine question. What 24 nautical mile limit? Whose 24 nautical mile limit? How does it apply to the Egypt / Gaza / Israel maritime borders?

(gives legal credence to the action)

What legal credence?

2) Use only female troopers for the assault (makes it harder to talk about big bad commandos)

The cavalry (the people with troopers) don't have people suited for rappelling onto a hostile ship and the airborne don't have enough females.

3) Use teargas for dispersion before jumping down (effectively removing/greatly reducing any chance for resistance)

Meh. Jump out of moving helicopter onto a heaving ship, into close quarters space while wearing full kit, a gas mask, body armour and a life jacket. Hmmm.

4) Include a television team (reporters in the field bonded makes the best pro your side reporters after all) who preferably has been there from the start of training for the assault (more bonding and lots of material for a documentary about it)

5) Go in with limited live ammunition weapons (second wave only)

And if the guys on the ship have AKs? Thats why we are boarding the ship, yeah?

Alternatively I'd go for the propellers with nets; simply drop fishing nets at the back until they are snuggly stuck

But they will just send their ships forward and not reverse over our nets.

and the boats are not going any where

And the ships?

RealityCheck · 31-05-2010 8:16pm

Step 1: Use some bloody common sense :rolleyes:

Should'nt need much more than that! They were'nt exactly under attack.

Manach · 31-05-2010 8:23pm

Well they could have sunk the ship as it was in harbour, but that did not work too well for the French and the Rainbow Warrior.

BlaasForRafa · 31-05-2010 9:12pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Do not drop your people in individually by helicopter - board them very obviously from other vessels in a clearly defined group. Do block the ships with other civilian vessels if necessary - make it necessary for the convoy's vessels to commit damage in Israeli waters.

In short, do it the way police actions are supposed to be done.

cordially,
Scofflaw

And if that doesen't work put a couple of 76mm rounds into the engine room to stop it in the water. It probably wouldn't have sunk the Marmara but would have disabled it, it could then be towed to Ashdod. Of course give warning to the captain to evacuate that area of the ship first.

JonathanAnon · 31-05-2010 11:14pm

Warn the ships as they are leaving international waters and approaching Gaza. Tell them they will be treated as hostile enemy if they proceed. If they dont stop:

Manic Moran · 31-05-2010 11:37pm

And if that doesen't work put a couple of 76mm rounds into the engine room to stop it in the water.

Shooting into a ship is arguably a greater escalation than just dropping in.

Straight offhand, the only thing I'd have done different would have been to pick one end of the ship or another, so that they're not starting out surrounded, and if there was a fight, a helicopter to the side could isolate the rest of the deck from the landing zone. This is assuming that conditions and ship structure allow for it. I think the IDF are going to have a review of their boarding practices after this one.

NTM

eoin5 · 31-05-2010 11:52pm

No expert here but wouldnt it have been easy enough to disable the ships? Shooting out the propulsion seems a bit easier than landing commandos on deck. If theres someone knowledgeable on that I'd love to hear their take on it.

Victor · 01-06-2010 12:01am

Realise a ship is a living, breathing thing. The engines and generators (interchangeable on some ships) are needed to maintain in particular ventilation and lighting. Much of these systems may be below the water line and therefore difficult to shoot at directly from outside. Getting inside would be as difficult if not more than the operation carried out.

Potentially one could put a smallish explosive charge a little below the water line to allow some flooding which would encourage evacuation of the internal spaces, and possibly eventually the whole ship. However, potentially there are people on the other side of the hull from that explosive and they would be at risk of severe injury or death. Placing of such a charge would require the ship to be stopped first.

P_1 · 01-06-2010 12:08am

I'd imagine parking a frigate at the mouth of the harbour would be the easiest option.

Manic Moran · 01-06-2010 12:23am

pithater1 wrote: »

I'd imagine parking a frigate at the mouth of the harbour would be the easiest option.

Then what happens when the vessel decides to ram the frigate? Some sort of affirmative action will be required to stop the vessel, bringing us back to square one.

(And even if it missed, you're going to have a very pissed off warship, not healthy. Ask the crew of MV Sonia)

NTM

Scofflaw · 01-06-2010 12:55am

Manic Moran wrote: »

Then what happens when the vessel decides to ram the frigate? Some sort of affirmative action will be required to stop the vessel, bringing us back to square one.

(And even if it missed, you're going to have a very pissed off warship, not healthy. Ask the crew of MV Sonia)

NTM

That's why you use an empty tanker or cargo vessel to block the harbour mouth, with only a couple of people on board (if that) ready to ditch at a moment's notice. There's no requirement to park anything as expensive as a frigate in the way.

Again - think policing. Blocking the road with inexpensive cars rather than an armed tank.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Pride Fighter · 01-06-2010 2:43am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Do not drop your people in individually by helicopter - board them very obviously from other vessels in a clearly defined group. Do block the ships with other civilian vessels if necessary - make it necessary for the convoy's vessels to commit damage in Israeli waters.

In short, do it the way police actions are supposed to be done.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The flotilla was going no where near Israeli waters. They were heading towards the territorial waters of the Palestinian authority.

conorhal · 01-06-2010 3:51pm

pithater1 wrote: »

I'd imagine parking a frigate at the mouth of the harbour would be the easiest option.

One of the major problems for the IDF is boat to boat smuggling, rockets tend to be moved to a fishing vessel off shore and the smaller boat can land them without requiring a large harbor.

The most obvious solution is a boat to boat boarding party at sea within territorial waters after a radioed warning to the ship, getting all GI Joe on a situation is nothing but counter productive as the IDF have learned.

Patser · 01-06-2010 9:21pm

Tell them you've mined the entrance to the Harbour and it's their call.

Get a few of powerful Tug boats, stick a few commandos on them for protection and play bumper cars with the flotilla, pushing them around so they can't dock/get past.

Tell the flotilla the area ahead is now declared an International Marine Reserve due to the presence of a very rare species of Dolphins, and that now is their mating season and they're very sensative to noise. If the flotilla keeps going, start screaming that they're wiping out a species of Dolphins. Greenpeace (or better still Sea Shephards) ride on in and confront the flotilla for you. Best be vague of exactly where this Resrve is.

Drop large cork in ships funnels.

Park (moor?) a large counter flotilla of small, vulnerable boats with Israeli orphans, women and Nuns (are there Jewish Nuns?) directly in front of flotilla in counter protest. Then add lots and lots of smoke to the scene, while jamming Aid flotillas radar. Again their call if they want to plow through 'fog'knowing there are vulnerable boats out there.

Overheal · 01-06-2010 9:35pm

Sub-Lethal weaponry? Sonic Cannons? Flashbangs?

Those silly Whale Wars people used home made gas bombs to induce vomiting when inhaled.

Wolfe Tone · 01-06-2010 11:57pm

Couldnt they have sank a ship in the harbour mouth to block it?

Manic Moran · 02-06-2010 4:06am

That may have an effect on the Gazan fishing habits. Aid isn't allowed to come in through the blockade, but Gazans can still take their boats out a couple of miles and fish.

NTM

jank · 02-06-2010 6:56am

How to stop the aid? Create an environment that doesn't need it in the first place.

You know, rebuild Gaza, feed it, educate it etc.. It's in the Israels own good to do this rather leave a 1.5 million unhappy, disgruntled, pissed off people on your border.

How to stop the (aid) flotilla - The theories

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