Israel a threat to world peace ?

mr_angry · 11-11-2003 12:02am

What other nations have done any better?

As Hobbes pointed out - how about us? How about Ireland? As pointed out, we didn't have to deal with the extremes of suicide bombings, but how was the problem (nearly) resolved? It wasn't by blowing up the Shankill or Garvaghy Road estates! All the progress that has been made has been thorugh a process of calm diplomacy (to some degree anyway), and both sides admitting they were wrong. Violence breeds violence, and it amazes me that the Israeli government have yet to realise this. True, they have to put up with more sh*t than anyone else, but they aren't doing their own citizens (to whom their responsibility is paramount) any favours. I believe their policies will only result in more of their own people getting killed.

11-11-2003 10:49am

Which? Israel conditions or Palistine conditions?

Either. To be honest i was thinking of Israel at the time. But either would be interesting.

Ireland/Northern Ireland/England a few years back. Granted there weren't suicide bombings but we certainly did have our fair share of terrorism on both sides as well as state sanctioned terrorism

If it was just terrorism in the Middle East, i daresay Israel would have broken palestinian resistance a long time ago. This goes beyond the N.Irish situation. The strength of beliefs, and the hatred involved make N.Ireland pale in comparison. And the use of Suicide bombers is a strong point to show the difference. It shows the level of hate in Palestine.

the fact that the N.Ireland situation has progessed towards peace is an amazing and wonderful thing, and it gives me hope for Palestine, but the situation differs greatly. I'd love to see the same happen in Palestine.

Your comment doesn't make any sense? First you cite that there is no other country with the problem, then they are not doing any better?

no, i said that i haven't seen any other nation (Like Israel) that has had a similiar history. I doubt too many people will agree with me, but Israel has been hated by the Arab Nations since it was created by the UN, and their actions while suspect in many areas, still shows a nation trying to survice in a hostile environment.

So in the end, i said that i haven't seen any other nation under the same strain, and if there is such a nation, how are they managing the situation? Rather than pick my comment apart, perhaps yu could provide an example, apart from ireland?

If you mean suggestions to solve the problem. Well if a certain country didn't veto every suggestion the fighting may of stopped long ago. Like for example putting UN Peacekeepers into Palistine.

oh i agree. Israel can be its own worst enemy. You're not going to have any disagreement with me, about israel's actions towards the UN. I totally agree the UN Peacekeepers would have helped.

How are thier actions better? If anything I find them extremly wrong. How is invading a country a good thing?

I'm not saying its a good thing. I'm saying its a modern response. The occupation of Palestine goes back the the first number of wars between Palestine and Israel. Palestine tried to defeat israel with its allies, and failed. they've been occupied ever since. So Israel is completely in the wrong because its neighbours tried to invade them? come on.

Gah! It is this sort of argument that I hate. Terrorists != Palistinians. Likewise you can't blame the crap that Israel or the US does on it's population. Granted there are some that agree with it, but it doesn't mean they all do.

No. I didn't say all palestinians are terrorists. I call the groups that target civilians terrorists. Just as i call any Israeli that targets unarmed (no weapons capable of killing another human) Palestinians murderers. And i never said that Israel's actions have complete support of its population.

You are also equating palistinians to less then human. Which I find offensive

I still don't see my comment saying that. I said that the Palestinians are seeking death. hence the attacks & the methods of those attacks. Nothing in the above comment says they're less than human.

Erm, did you forget the recent ceasefire were they did actually have the Terrorist groups form a ceasefire, even for a while after having palistine rocket attacked and people rounded up against the letter of the ceasefire.

Aye, i remember, and i applauded it, while it lasted. Don't get me wrong. I'm not blind to israel's actions, but neither am i going to be blind to other groups/nations involvement in Palestine. Israel has ****ed up many times, and have committed many crimes. They need to be brought to account for their actions, but don't forget that Palestine is responsible also.

I wonder what your feelings on Nelson Mandela are as regard his humanity or lack there of (based on your stated belief of what humans do).

i said humans work for a better option. i have admiration for Nelson Mandela since he worked for peace, despite the cruelty he faced in his life. It would have been easier to hold a weapon and go out killing. He took the more difficult route.

All the progress that has been made has been thorugh a process of calm diplomacy (to some degree anyway), and both sides admitting they were wrong.

Thank you for saying what i have been saying. I have been saying that it is peaceful negotiation that will settle Palestine. If you don't believe me, read back again over what i said within this thread.

Violence breeds violence, and it amazes me that the Israeli government have yet to realise this.

A second ago, you were saying in reference to Ireland that both sides realised their errors, and sought peace. How is it any different in palestine, and yet you highlight Israel. This is what gets me. Everyone forgets that Palestine has as much input into creating peace as Israel. palestines lack of negotiation is as much a factor as Israel's.

True, they have to put up with more sh*t than anyone else, but they aren't doing their own citizens (to whom their responsibility is paramount) any favours

i'm glad you recognise that Israel has to put up with so much ****, but perhaps they see their responsibility as protecting their citizens, and that their only option is war. I don't agree with that view, but i can recognise it.

I believe their policies will only result in more of their own people getting killed.

i agree. But then i see the current politics thats prevelent across the whole of the M.east as being self-destructive.

vibe666 · 11-11-2003 11:03am

here's a nice quick post to counter the huge ones that have been going round. sorry if it's been posted before, but due to the inordinate size opf previous posts and the fact I have other things to do in my day, I don't have time to wade through them all.

the biggest threat to world peace in the 21st century is George W Bush and the American government. end of story.

American foreign policy is responsible for inflaming and exaggerating most of the problems in the middle east. they constantly interfere with issues that do not concern them at all, switching sides when it suits, and consequentially shifting the balance of power in whatever it is they are messing with.

they put the rest of the world in danger of attack by involving them through heavy handed tactics to make other governments take sides and leave nobody out of it. look at the whole thing with shannon airport. all that sh1te was nothing to do with ireland, but they dragged us into it all the same.[/rant]

mr_angry · 11-11-2003 1:04pm

Everyone forgets that Palestine has as much input into creating peace as Israel. palestines lack of negotiation is as much a factor as Israel's.

Valid point. I concede that. I guess I just expected the Israelis, as a more developed society, to have better standards and show more restraint. Guess I was wrong. Mind you, there isn't anyone else (except us) showing them a good example, is there?

their only option is war. I don't agree with that view, but i can recognise it.

But can you just stand by and watch it happen? I might not be able to do anything about it, but I'm damn sure gonna try, even if its just bringing certain events to people's attention. The way I see it, the Israelis have many more options open to them than the Palastinians, and I'd say they have plenty of opportunities to avoid war, if they choose to do so.

Bush describing Arial Sharon as "a man of peace" is a f*cking joke though - an insult to the rest of the middle east. That kind of sh*t just really p*sses me off.

11-11-2003 1:21pm

Valid point. I concede that. I guess I just expected the Israelis, as a more developed society, to have better standards and show more restraint. Guess I was wrong. Mind you, there isn't anyone else (except us) showing them a good example, is there

i agree however, the state of their society is not in question. A push for peace is not reliant on that. But i agree, Israel is at fault, just as is Palestine.

But can you just stand by and watch it happen? I might not be able to do anything about it, but I'm damn sure gonna try, even if its just bringing certain events to people's attention. The way I see it, the Israelis have many more options open to them than the Palastinians, and I'd say they have plenty of opportunities to avoid war, if they choose to do so.

Actually i am standing here watching it happen, just as we all are. the most i'll ever probably take my views are expressing them to people.

As for Israel having more options, i disagee. palestine has the same options as Israel. Its just that neither side is interested in much more than revenge.

Bush describing Arial Sharon as "a man of peace" is a f*cking joke though - an insult to the rest of the middle east. That kind of sh*t just really p*sses me off

oh i agree. Sharon is definetly not a man or peace. And to let Bush say that considering what he's approved... but then very few people involved in the M.East Politics can be called "men of peace". They all have bloody hands for what they have done. Just as Bush has.

sovtek · 11-11-2003 4:13pm

Originally posted by klaz
i agree however, the state of their society is not in question. A push for peace is not reliant on that. But i agree, Israel is at fault, just as is Palestine.

No one in this situation in regards to government or officials is innocent. It doesn't ever happen that way. When one country takes over another or suppresses a people there are always going to be bad things that happen and the worst will be brought out in people.
It's an age old situation that always has very similar results.

As for Israel having more options, i disagee. palestine has the same options as Israel. Its just that neither side is interested in much more than revenge.

Does a Palestinian have the same option of freedom of movement as an Israeli? Is Sharon trapped in his house?
Are Israeli's access to natural resources and trade severly restricted? Are Palestinians able to strike at will with fighter jets and attack helicopters, killing many innocent people and destroying many homes and other infrastructure? Do Israelis have the amount of poverty and disease as Palestinians? Are Israelis made to wait at checkpoints for hours? Are Israeli's often killed at checkpoints? Are Israeli ambulance drivers and their patients often killed by the Palestinian authority? Does Israel have an international airport?
Does Palestine have a seat at the UN?
Is Palestine backed by the worlds superpower with a veto on the UN Security Council?
Many Palestinians are interested in much more than revenge, just like alot of Israelis don't want revenge either. In any given population people want basically the same things.
Would you say the suicide bombings of US soldiers in Vietnam was merely out of revenge?

Geromino · 11-11-2003 4:41pm

Originally posted by mr_angry4
Do you think Israel (as a state) acts responsibly given their military and political prowess, and considering their geographical position and idealogical stance, as compared with their own citizens, and their geographical neighbours?

Given its present state of affairs, it is acting about as responsible as one would expect. Now, do not confuse this statement with agreeing with Israel's actions. On the contrary, I wish Israel would not bulldoze the homes of suspected terrorists that Israel believes are there in the camps. However, I cannot think of one good long term alternative that Israel can use. It has tried UN, but has failed. It has peace with Sedat, but Sedat was assassingated. It has tried countless US and European proposals, and for whatever reason, those have not blossomed. The main problem is that Israel does not trust Arafat and Arafat does not trust Israel. Israel cannot trust any Palestian authority because Arafat only controls, loosely, three of the ten security groups. Arafat believes, for better or worse, that no one in Israel dose not want peace. Until this cycle is broken, the violence will continue.

As a result, the only possible way I see that Palestine can get out of this mess is to have a civil war within itself and Israel must stay out of it. I know it is not the best possible solution but until specific groups that are unwilling to compromise will need to be takein out of the loop or severly controlled internally. Israel may need to do the same thing, but has a more democratic process already in place while Palestine does not.

I appreciate that, but that doesn't mean the Isrealis should stoop to the same level. If you consider "terrorist/freedom fighters" to be on the same level as the Israeli state, then I feel you have to concede that Israel is a threat to world peace.

If you want a comparable analysis of groups stooping so low, one can only go as far as former Yugoslavia, the Balkens, and look at the atrocities committed by all sides. Yet each groups firmly believed it was their duty or right to act accordingly because the other side did. This does not excuse Israel or Palestine, just to put it into perspective about the conflict.

vibe666 · 11-11-2003 4:51pm

an, you people need to spend more time doing your jobs.

unless you are political correspondants, in which case, carry on, you're doing a grand job.

Geromino · 11-11-2003 5:23pm

Originally posted by sovtek
No one in this situation in regards to government or officials is innocent. It doesn't ever happen that way. When one country takes over another or suppresses a people there are always going to be bad things that happen and the worst will be brought out in people.
It's an age old situation that always has very similar results.

So, I take it that you will agree that allIsraelis should be eliminated for simply being Israeli, Sovtek. As for no innocents, the Palestinians are just as guilty as Israel. In this conflict, one does not drabble on who fired the first shot, but must concentrate on how to resolve the conflict in the best possible manner. Historians will decipher and debate on why the events happened, not who fired the first shot.

Does a Palestinian have the same option of freedom of movement as an Israeli? Is Sharon trapped in his house?
Are Israeli's access to natural resources and trade severly restricted?

Before 1992, Palestinians in the occupied terrotories use to enjoy many of the freedoms that most Europeans enjoy. It was not until the suicide bombers that Isreal put forth restrictions

Are Palestinians able to strike at will with fighter jets and attack helicopters, killing many innocent people and destroying many homes and other infrastructure?

Israeli ships still cannot pass through the Canal Zone. They have that distinct honor based on Nasser's attempt to destroy Israel in 1967. Further, in any armed conflict, innocent bystandards on both sides will die. That is a fact of life Sovtek and it does not matter how just the cause is. One should always try reduce the possiblity of civilians being harmed but at the same time the troops should never

Do Israelis have the amount of poverty and disease as Palestinians? Are Israelis made to wait at checkpoints for hours? Are Israeli's often killed at checkpoints? Are Israeli ambulance drivers and their patients often killed by the Palestinian authority? Does Israel have an international airport?
Does Palestine have a seat at the UN?
Is Palestine backed by the worlds superpower with a veto on the UN Security Council?
Many Palestinians are interested in much more than revenge, just like alot of Israelis don't want revenge either. In any given population people want basically the same things.
Would you say the suicide bombings of US soldiers in Vietnam was merely out of revenge?

And what does this have to do with the conflict. The Arab countries were allies of the Soviet Union during the Cold War where most of the inter regional conflicts occured and the Soviet Union had veto power as well. Several times the US has voted to condemn Israel and has tried to help resolve the conflict. Further, you cannot justify one action (suicide bombers] while criticizing the same action by the opposite side no matter how just you feel the cause is. The question is always did Israel purposely try to kill innocients or did those individuals happen to get in the crossfire. In nearly all cases, it was the latter. Death occurs in any war/revolution/conflict and it is not pretty. Hollywood movies simply do not even compare to the real horrors and unitl you experience such actions, your statements are politically incomplete and inaccurate.

sovtek · 11-11-2003 5:39pm

Originally posted by Geromino
Given its present state of affairs, it is acting about as responsible as one would expect.

A state of affairs it's largely responsible for.

Now, do not confuse this statement with agreeing with Israel's actions. On the contrary, I wish Israel would not bulldoze the homes of suspected terrorists that Israel believes are there in the camps.

It bulldozes more than just "suspected" terrrorists. it also bulldozes homes that Israel says are "on it's land and has no permission to biuld" even though it's in occupied territory. As well it bulldozes homes of families of "suspected" terrorists. I note that Israel also claims that teenagers throwing rocks are often termed "suspected militants" when the IDF gun them down for doing just that.

However, I cannot think of one good long term alternative that Israel can use.

How about pulling out of the occupied territories, stop increasing illegal settlements, give back access of their natural resources, stop executing "suspects", stop executing leaders of resistance groups, allow Arafat freedom of movement, respect that Arafat is the elected leader of the Palestinian authority, stop building an illegal "security wall" that further intrudes on occupied land and prevents Palestinians freedom of movement on their own land.
That might be a start.

It has tried UN, but has failed.

Ironically the UN's weakest link is it's strongest member. Strangely enough he US has even vetoed resolutions that condemn suidice bombings but also criticised Israel. That being it's historical reason for vetoeing resolutions regarding Israeli malfeasance.

It has peace with Sedat, but Sedat was assassinated.

Yitzhak Rabin merely gave the impression of a peace settlement and look what happened to him?

It has tried countless US and European proposals, and for whatever reason, those have not blossomed.

Because Israel usually doesn't carry out their terms.

The main problem is that Israel does not trust Arafat and Arafat does not trust Israel.

The main reason is that they don't follow the terms of said agreements and don't want to deal with Arafat as he is the Palestinians strongest leader.
They'd rather deal with someone that will capitulate even more than Arafat has.

Israel cannot trust any Palestian authority because Arafat only controls, loosely, three of the ten security groups.

I guess people should trust Sharon because he controls all the security groups and leads them so responsibly.

Arafat believes, for better or worse, that no one in Israel dose not want peace.

I can't speak for Arafat's beleifs any more than you can but it's obvious that Sharon doesn't want peace and has shown that he definitely can't be trusted.

Until this cycle is broken, the violence will continue.

Well it's hard when groups like Hamas do cease fire even with Israeli incursions and then Sharon has one of their leaders assassinated.

As a result, the only possible way I see that Palestine can get out of this mess is to have a civil war within itself and Israel must stay out of it.

I guess those innocent people that are put in harms way because of Israeli leaders that believe in Zionism would never rise up against such stupidity.
As opposed to Palestinians who all have a vested interest in protecting themselves from Israeli aggression.

I know it is not the best possible solution but until specific groups that are unwilling to compromise will need to be takein out of the loop or severly controlled internally.

You mean members of the Israeli government that refuse to compromise. Back to the civil war thing.

Israel may need to do the same thing, but has a more democratic process already in place while Palestine does not.

I guess you forgot about the internationally recognized election of Arafat. As opposed to the selective political freedom of the Israeli population.

If you want a comparable analysis of groups stooping so low, one can only go as far as former Yugoslavia, the Balkens, and look at the atrocities committed by all sides. Yet each groups firmly believed it was their duty or right to act accordingly because the other side did. This does not excuse Israel or Palestine, just to put it into perspective about the conflict.

Well one thing Yugoslavia had going for it is that the international community stepped in relatively soon and tried to do something about it(albeit misguided in the case of NATO).
I suppose that's another thread though.

mr_angry · 11-11-2003 6:23pm

Given its present state of affairs, it is acting about as responsible as one would expect.

Well, as measurements go, a lot of people on this forum seem to disagree with that statement. In fact, most people seem to think Israel is acting irresponsibly.

But my real problem with your posts is the fact that you attempt to draw in "historical examples" which bear little resemblence to the matter we're discussing. For example, the actions taken during the Yugoslav civil war would seem irrelevant to me, in comparison with the Palastinian-Israeli conflict. You do this on a regular basis, and I find myself constantly saying to myself "Why has he said that? That bears no obvious relevance to this situation at all". If you're going to use such examples, please explain exactly why they're relevant instead of saying "You think Israel are bad? Look at [insert name of random other country here]".

By the way, Sovotek, I think you are being particularly biased here. You have to respect the fact that Palastinian militants take advantage of their own people's plight, and have been just as guilty of breaking ceasefires, and have wanton disregard fpr human life. Yes, the majority of the Palastinian people are mistreated, but the conduct of these groups leaves a disgusting stain on the image of Palastine.

sovtek · 11-11-2003 6:56pm

Originally posted by mr_angry4

By the way, Sovotek, I think you are being particularly biased here. You have to respect the fact that Palastinian militants take advantage of their own people's plight, and have been just as guilty of breaking ceasefires, and have wanton disregard fpr human life. Yes, the majority of the Palastinian people are mistreated, but the conduct of these groups leaves a disgusting stain on the image of Palastine.

The most recent breaking of a cease fire was carried out by the IDF. I'm not saying that Hamas and such don't, but looking at the mitigating factors, they're often enough provoked. Then some Israeli government official with an American accent shows up on Sky News saying "look they don't want peace".
Yes I am as biased as anybody else is.

Gangsta · 11-11-2003 10:08pm

ok you believe Israel to be a threat to pace, but please don't associate them with a mass murderer. Thats taking things too far. Israel has never been to my knowledge brought to account for war crimes or crimes against humanity. Israel has not used chemical weapons against their own people. Nor has Israel proven to have torture camps. So your comment just shows that you're so pro-palestine that you are blind to Israel having any decent values. Basically, open your eyes.

Just because it hasn’t been brought to your knowledge doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. We see only one aspect because we watch the western media (Sky news, CNN, Fox News etc.) America has vetoed 17 (not sure if that is the exact amount but in around there) sanctions on Israel by the UN. He said “it is in the same LEAGUE,” therefore not everything Israel does is exactly like Saddam. No Israel has no decent values and when I say Israel I refer to its government.

Just for one second, stop being pro-palestine. How would you deal with a nation that is currently occupied and continues to attack your civilian population.

You are pro-israeli and just because you make some anti-israeli/American statements does not make u neutral. Israel should not be there in the first place and when I say they shouldn’t be there I mean occupying Palestine.

Both sides are counter-productive. The blame lies at all the surrounding arab nations, the US and with Israel. Don't target Israel, when the blame lies with everyone.

How does the blame lie with the surrounding Arab countries? Muslims have never ever murdered Jews; it was the golden time of the Jews under Muslim rule in Spain. The blame lies with Israel, if Israel wasn’t there, there wouldn’t be any war.

At the end of the day this poll is crap. A threat to peace? When has the world been stable at any time?

Well the world is as stable is it’s ever been so you no what it means so don’t say bulls*** like that.

Please tell me you're joking? Posters are aways making references to the nazi's. During the invasion of Iraq some posters compared the US to the Invasion of Poland. The comparison cannot be made in this instance, or most others. For a comparison to be made, could only apply if Israel had started concentration camps, and systematically killed a race. No matter what the pro-palestinians and others say, Israel is not in this category...

In regards to the occupation, sure they do. As do a number of other nations. The only issue is that Palestinianbs are still fighting/dying in those territories. Randomly kill their own civilians? Hardly. They attack palestinians, or are you going to tell me that arabs living in Israel are israeli's and as such are responsible for Israels actions. as for blaming on one section, sure.. But Nazi germany blamed multiple areas, just as ireland blames tax dodgers, and France blames immigrants. Every nation will point to a single catagory.

Whoever compared the Iraq invasion to Poland was silly, on that point Iraq would never have to be invaded if the US and Britain put him in power and fuelled the war between Iraq and Iran but that’s beside the point. Israel in some ways are like the Nazi’s and others not, you have to be careful how you word these kind of statements. Anyway, in the ways it is like the Nazi’s are:
• It occupies land which doesn’t belong to them (including Israel itself).
• Killing Palestinians purely on the basis of their religion.
• The person who u quoted a “they kill their own“citizen (not civilians)” is also true as it occupies Palestinian territory and kills Palestinians it is guilty of this crime.

In ways they’re not:
• Concentration camps

The Irish governemt does so much without the support of the Irish people, and we're not callin for their arrests. Odd case i know, but its a aspect. Basically what the israeli Government is doing is wrong, and i agree with you on that, but then so too are the Palestine government/groups. You need to look at both sides, before you blame one side for the whole. It takes two to tango.

I don't see Palestinian civilians crying out for the end of their leaders who constantly call for revenge do you?

Fairly silly statement but anyway, the Irish government doesn’t do anything illegal so why would we call for arrests? It takes two to tango? Palestine can’t tango with the might of Israel. Palestinian leaders are calling for an end for suicide bombing etc. so how can they call for revenge also?

Geromino · 11-11-2003 11:32pm

Originally posted by mr_angry4
Well, as measurements go, a lot of people on this forum seem to disagree with that statement. In fact, most people seem to think Israel is acting irresponsibly.

What I was trying to do is put myself in Palestinian or Israeli shoes. Both sides feel that they are acting responsibility, but that does not mean they are right or wrong. When examining conflicts like these, one needs to be careful not to be blinded by one side's actions as just and then condemn the same action from the opposite group as unjust. If it were up to me, I would put Sharon and Arafat in a locked room with each one a daily ration of bread and water and have them stay there until both sides agree on a reasonable solution. However, this is only a fantasy.

But my real problem with your posts is the fact that you attempt to draw in "historical examples" which bear little resemblence to the matter we're discussing. For example, the actions taken during the Yugoslav civil war would seem irrelevant to me, in comparison with the Palastinian-Israeli conflict. You do this on a regular basis, and I find myself constantly saying to myself "Why has he said that? That bears no obvious relevance to this situation at all". If you're going to use such examples, please explain exactly why they're relevant instead of saying "You think Israel are bad? Look at [insert name of random other country here]"

Ok, I will try to explain why I put a historical event into perspective with the discussion at hand. To get to your post specifically, it was only to look at the conflict in the Balkans as a reference point of cultural conflicts in general. What I mean is, if you can see a cultural conflict in an area with closer ties to Europe and compare it with tue Palestinian/Israeli conflict, then one could make a little sense out of the region's conflict. The Balkan conflict has been going on for over 1500 years and was only subdued briefly while Marshal Tito was in power. This did not mean the cultural tensions were not there, but only supressed. All one group needs is a misrepresentation, misapplied facts, to get the hatred going again. Thus you have the current Balkan conflict. I know it is somewhat simplistic, but I was only using it as a reference posnt. Now, let us get back to the Palestinian/Israeli Conflict. However, not much has been written about the Jews and Palestinians/Arab conflcits before the 19th century. And only now do you see any resemblance of nationalities between people and not religion. However, if one looks at the Crusades and the consequences of Jews by the Crusades, then you can look no farther. So, at times it had been suppressed and new movements like Zionism became the next flashpoint in an ancient battle. Zionism was created in Europe 1892 by Theodor Herzl. It was political, not religious, foundation based on traditional coloinialism attitudes of that time. The flashpoint, then created mistrust by both groups and neither have found compromise since. This is of course the British and UN mandates to try incorporate both groups on the same piece of land. In case you are wondering, I am getting my thoughts from a book entitled, "A History of the Israeli=Palestinian Conflict" by Mark A. Tessler.

mr_angry · 12-11-2003 10:59am

Ok, you've validated that point. Thank you. But you've still avoided the question "Do you think Israel is acting responsibly... (yada, yada, yada)". Your answer to it was "Oh well... look at Yugoslavia!". You were asked a question - what is your opinion - and you have avoided that question continually. The question posed was not "Why do the Israelis and Palastinians hate each other", nor was it "Who is right and who is wrong". The question was "Is Israel a threat to world peace?", and then most people choose to try to validate their opinion. When you asked for more parameters, I gave them to you. The question relates to now. Not 1968. Not 1892. Not the crusades. Now.

Geromino · 12-11-2003 4:21pm

Originally posted by mr_angry4
Ok, you've validated that point. Thank you. But you've still avoided the question "Do you think Israel is acting responsibly... (yada, yada, yada)". Your answer to it was "Oh well... look at Yugoslavia!". You were asked a question - what is your opinion - and you have avoided that question continually. The question posed was not "Why do the Israelis and Palastinians hate each other", nor was it "Who is right and who is wrong". The question was "Is Israel a threat to world peace?", and then most people choose to try to validate their opinion. When you asked for more parameters, I gave them to you. The question relates to now. Not 1968. Not 1892. Not the crusades. Now.

As I have stated, it is acting about as responsible as one would expect. I also pointed that this by no means supports the decisions in which Israel is currently employing. In other words, I disagree with the decision that Israel is currently undertaking, but I also recognize the reasons why Israel is taking the course of action. I also stated that I cannot find any viable alternative to the current situation without violating the Olso accords and national sovereignty of Israel and Palestine.

Let me put it to you in another way, put yourself in their shoes and in their minds and see if you can come up with a much different solution. It is far too easy to sit on the fence and criticize a country or administration whille not being directly effected by the actions and decisions of all paties involved.

mr_angry · 12-11-2003 6:49pm

Without violating the national soverignty of Palastine? What national soverignty would this be? Their side of "the wall". Ha. Don't make me laugh. And it is painfully clear from the rest of this thread that the rest of the posters do not agree that "Israel is acting as responsibly as one would expect". We expect more. And I think we're right to do so.

krattapopov · 13-11-2003 11:00pm

certainly a threat to world peace, and will be as long as the biggest country in the world supports them.

israel are breaking numerous un laws right now, and the US still does nothing about it, it makes me sick

gurramok · 14-11-2003 1:35am

Let me put it to you in another way, put yourself in their shoes and in their minds and see if you can come up with a much different solution. It is far too easy to sit on the fence and criticize a country or administration whille not being directly effected by the actions and decisions of all paties involved

Problem is nearly every action they undertake is of an aggressive nature rather than non-aggressive.
That wall is being built on an artificial border in most places on land that Israel do not own.
Why is the wall not being built on pre-1967 borders(international border ) ?

On the topic, UN weapons inspectors need to be allowed into Israel to inspect the nuclear facilities to re-assure the world that the nuclear weapons they possess are not a threat to us all.

Funnily enough Iran which was accused by US of developing WMD has been found not to be doing so by the UN inspectorate, yet they are accused by US of having them.

How do we know that extremists like Sharon will not use WMD's to do pre-emptive strikes on neighbouring countries ?
Do we have to rely on US to control its ally in the region ?

Geromino · 15-11-2003 6:30am

Originally posted by mr_angry4
Without violating the national soverignty of Palastine? What national soverignty would this be? Their side of "the wall". Ha. Don't make me laugh. And it is painfully clear from the rest of this thread that the rest of the posters do not agree that "Israel is acting as responsibly as one would expect". We expect more. And I think we're right to do so.

Most Palestinians believe that since the UN sanctioned the PLO through the Oslo Accords, they believe they have national soveriegnty. Second, and how may I ask would one expect for Israel to act more responsibility since every peace initiative has ended in failure, one way or another. Now, do not put it entirely or mostly on Israel's, Palestine has 10 security organizations with only three in Arafat's control. The others are "independent" and act regardless what either side does or says. Until Palestine gets control of the other security orgainizations, there will be no peace no matter what you ask of Israel, except to commit suicide. But since that is only a fantasy, we are left with reality of the situation. The cultural hatred between certain specific groups (this of course does not mean EVERYBODY!) of both sides is continueing to add fuel to the fire.

Now, the last part of my post said to put yourself in their shoes and their mentality. It is very, very, very, very, very easy to criticize or ostracize a country in which you do not have any remotely shared history, culture, or experience and expect them to do something that fits into a tidy box. There is no MTV solution here and we do not live in a Hollywood movie. As I stated, they are acting about as responsible as one would expect given their cirmcumstances. That is why I gave the analysis with the Balkans. They acted similarly with no side completely innocent. And the same applies to Israel/Palestine. Not for once have you even remotely put yourself in their shoes and mindset. It does not mean you AGREE WITH THEIR DECISIONS but you are trying to see what would you have done given their circumstances. And if you do that, you will find that the expectations are significantly different, but the end result is still the same. This is the end of my discussion on this.

ali303 · 01-06-2010 10:55am

dlofnep · 01-06-2010 11:38am

Holy old thread batman.

But - in response to the 7 year old, original question - Yes, Israel is a threat to world peace.

gurramok · 01-06-2010 12:00pm

Nice map there, colonisation indeed.

mrboswell · 01-06-2010 1:13pm

Just reading back through the old post where a poster said how the israelis have become the Nazis - how correct he/she was.

Considering that no matter how destructive or disgusting the deaths cause by the nazis, sorry I mean the israelis, their spokespersons come out like robots saying something like "its very regrettable" or "these deaths could have been avoided".

Considering isreali policy with conscription and their previous disgusting policy of "break their bones" and the likes it is no wonder they are messed up as a "nation" and act like heartless robots/monsters.

Back to original question - is Israel a threat to world peace?
Well they shouldn't be there in the first place, and all the killing is a result of them ultimately being there. So yes - they are a threat to world peace.

Pride Fighter · 01-06-2010 1:16pm

Worthy thread but maybe a mod could lock this and re-open the thread from the posts today with the thread having the same name. Then delete this comment after its done:)

Cheers.

vibe666 · 01-06-2010 9:17pm

mrboswell wrote: »

Just reading back through the old post where a poster said how the israelis have become the Nazis - how correct he/she was.

its funny you should mention that, I've been feeling recently like Israel seems to be following in the Nazi's footsteps just recently and yet again the world stands idly by and watches them but does nothing.

they've been trampling all over the Palestinians for years as can clearly be seen from the map above, but due (I'm sure in no small part) to the whole US/Jewish connection and all the billions of dollars involved between them, the US will do nothing to stop them and if the US will do nothing then i doubt very much whether anyone else will either.

i see stories of various countries 'condemning' the recent actions of the Israeli armed forces against the civilian aid flotilla, but i don't see anyone actually doing anything except those few brave souls who tried to get aid to those in need with nobody else to fight for them and for many it cost them their lives.

congratulations Israel, you've turned Palestine into a giant concentration camp and you are swiftly and surely becoming the Nazi's of the 21st century.

Not only have you learnt nothing from history, but you are well on your way to becoming that which your grandparents and ours despised the most and fought and died in their millions to destroy. you make me sick to my stomach. :mad:

Israel a threat to world peace ?

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