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Lissadell Costs

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    #62
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    The Courts didn't agree with your bar stool legal argument

    What do courts do and do not agree with is not necessary indicative of sound judgment.


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    #63
    JCJCJC
    Registered Users Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭JCJCJC


    The thread is about costs - can we get back to that? Who do people think will end up paying?


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    #64
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    JCJCJC wrote: »
    The thread is about costs - can we get back to that? Who do people think will end up paying?

    The ordinary people - locals and tourists - will no longer be able to travel on the road / right of way through the house to the sea, and will not be able to admire the splendid architecture of the outside of the house, as generations have been free to do.

    The ordinary people will though rates and taxes pay the legal costs. Did not the troika have harsh words to say about the cost of the legal profession in Ireland....but nothing was done about it? Heard an auld wise fellow on a high stool the other day remark "Say what you want about the old ruling class, but they allowed people rights of way and they did not have holiday homes costing 13 million." Who paid for that?


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    #65
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    maryishere wrote: »
    The ordinary people - locals and tourists - will no longer be able to travel on the road / right of way through the house to the sea

    The coastal route to the beach at Lissadell is open.
    maryishere wrote: »
    Heard an auld wise fellow on a high stool the other day remark "Say what you want about the old ruling class, but they allowed people rights of way and they did not have holiday homes costing 13 million." Who paid for that?

    He's not so wise really, it's their home, they paid for it, nobody else. Sligo County Council could have bought it, but they didn't and spent way more money fighting a bitter personal battle. Regarding the costs? The tax payer will pay for the silly decisions made by Sligo County Council.


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    #66
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    The coastal route to the beach at Lissadell is open.
    as it should be, but I assume the other road to the coast (through the estate) is now closed, for the first time. Generations used that route.

    John_Rambo wrote: »
    He's not so wise really,
    who, the old man on the high stool? you never met him or know anything about him.


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    it's their home, they paid for it, nobody else.
    The point was, "Say what you want about the old ruling class, but they allowed people rights of way and they did not have holiday homes costing 13 million." Where did the 13 million come from? Do you remember the troika criticising legal fees and procedures in this country or am I imagining it?


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Sligo County Council could have bought it,
    agreed, but would they have had the money to maintain and refurbish it...13 million so far?
    John_Rambo wrote: »
    but they didn't and spent way more money fighting a bitter personal battle.
    from reading media reports even they did not envisage at the beginning that maintaining rights of way would cost 7 million. Only in Ireland could legal costs stretch to that on a right of way case.


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Regarding the costs? The tax payer will pay for the silly decisions made by Sligo County Council.
    In fairness they were elected by the public and thought they were acting in the interests of the public.

    If poor old Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house everyone would be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off.

    It would therefore be in the interests of the country, and indeed the tourist industry, if all the old remaining Anglo Irish gentry were encouraged to remain here ; perhaps by giving them grants, or reducing inheritance taxes, or by whatever means...maybe even giving them back some of the lands confinscated by the land commission. ;)


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    #67
    Stavros Murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Stavros Murphy


    maryishere wrote: »
    as it should be, but I assume the other road to the coast (through the estate) is now closed, for the first time. Generations used that route.



    who, the old man on the high stool? you never met him or know anything about him.




    The point was, "Say what you want about the old ruling class, but they allowed people rights of way and they did not have holiday homes costing 13 million." Where did the 13 million come from? Do you remember the troika criticising legal fees and procedures in this country or am I imagining it?




    agreed, but would they have had the money to maintain and refurbish it...13 million so far?


    from reading media reports even they did not envisage at the beginning that maintaining rights of way would cost 7 million. Only in Ireland could legal costs stretch to that on a right of way case.




    In fairness they were elected by the public and thought they were acting in the interests of the public.

    If poor old Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house everyone would be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off.

    It would therefore be in the interests of the country, and indeed the tourist industry, if all the old remaining Anglo Irish gentry were encouraged to remain here ; perhaps by giving them grants, or reducing inheritance taxes, or by whatever means...maybe even giving them back some of the lands confinscated by the land commission. ;)

    As opposed to yesterdays "burning them out"? Some U-turn there old son.


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    #68
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Stavros Murphy wrote: »
    As opposed to yesterdays "burning them out"? Some U-turn there old son.
    I never advocated burning anyone out and I am most definitely not your old son. You did not answer the question: Do you remember the troika criticising legal fees and procedures in this country or am I imagining it?

    Do you agree that if poor old Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house everyone would be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off?


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    #69
    Stavros Murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Stavros Murphy


    maryishere wrote: »
    I never advocated burning anyone out and I am most definitely not your old son. You did not answer the question: Do you remember the troika criticising legal fees and procedures in this country or am I imagining it?

    Do you agree that if poor old Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house everyone would be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off?

    Drop in the bucket for the CC and self-inflicted anyway. And how "poor"? You richer?


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    #70
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    maryishere wrote: »
    I never advocated burning anyone out and I am most definitely not your old son. You did not answer the question: Do you remember the troika criticising legal fees and procedures in this country or am I imagining it?

    Do you agree that if poor old Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house everyone would be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off?
    The yielding of rights of way were found not to be voluntary on Sir Jocelyns part due in large part to intimidation over the years.
    So no, everyone wouldn't have been happy if Sir Jocelyn had stayed. For one, Sir Jocelyn wasn't happy to stay there!


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    #71
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Stavros Murphy wrote: »
    Drop in the bucket for the CC

    7 million is not drop in the bucket, its a lot of money. It may not be a lot of money to you, some may feel its only half the cost of a holiday home, but its a lot of money.


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    #72
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,320 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Alf. A. Male wrote: »
    Why is the cost of the house and renovation mentioned in your breakdown? They were paid by the owners and have nothing to do with the €7,000,000

    Perspective. The council had the chance to buy the land and house out right


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    #73
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    The yielding of rights of way were found not to be voluntary on Sir Jocelyns part due in large part to intimidation over the years.

    have you a link for that? I saw a long tv programme on him about a year ago and he never mentioned such intimidation. The issue of closing the rights of way never arose when he owned Lissadell, so how could he have possibly have been intimidated over same? He had only good things to say about the area and the locals, and it appears all of the locals never had any problem with him.


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    #74
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    maryishere wrote: »
    have you a link for that? I saw a long tv programme on him about a year ago and he never mentioned such intimidation. The issue of closing the rights of way never arose when he owned Lissadell, so how could he have possibly have been intimidated over same? He had only good things to say about the area and the locals, and it appears all of the locals never had any problem with him.
    Read the judgement. This is why only one of the four rights' of way was found to exist, it was the only one that wasn't tainted and had a solid grounding in documentary evidence.


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    #75
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    Read the judgement.

    I read most of it. However never mind the judgement, as the other court case found different.
    The issue of closing the rights of way never arose when Sir Jocelyn owned Lissadell, so how could he have possibly have been intimidated over same? And if he was, why did ne never mention it? He said he was happy when he lived in Sligo, and had fond memories.

    Do you not agree that if Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house everyone would be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off?


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    #76
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    maryishere wrote: »
    as it should be

    And it is. Stop making up stories. The access to the beach remains.
    maryishere wrote: »
    who, the old man on the high stool? you never met him or know anything about him.

    We can all make up stories about old men on high stools.
    maryishere wrote: »
    In fairness they were elected by the public and thought they were acting in the interests of the public.

    I didn't elect them, but you can be sure I will pay for their fook up.


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    #77
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    The access to the beach remains.
    as it should, but the right of way road through the estate to the coast is now closed, is it not?

    The point is if Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house everyone would be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off.

    Oh, and you would not be having to help pay off that 7 million.


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    #78
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,320 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    The coastal route to the beach at Lissadell is open.



    He's not so wise really, it's their home, they paid for it, nobody else. Sligo County Council could have bought it, but they didn't and spent way more money fighting a bitter personal battle. Regarding the costs? The tax payer will pay for the silly decisions made by Sligo County Council.

    The coastal route is very important. I regularly kitesurf there. Occasionally we experience scum who visit the car park / grass area just to rob the cars.


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    #79
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    maryishere wrote: »
    Oh, and you would not be having to help pay off that 7 million.

    Oh, I will. I'm a tax payer in Dublin! Anyone paying tax will be paying for Sligo county councils misadventure.

    @ ted, I feel your pain, but the blame of theft lies only at the door of the thieves I'm afraid... It's a seven metre kite day on the east coust today!


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    #80
    Plazaman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭Plazaman


    maryishere wrote: »
    The point was, "Say what you want about the old ruling class, but they allowed people rights of way and they did not have holiday homes costing 13 million." Where did the 13 million come from? Do you remember the troika criticising legal fees and procedures in this country or am I imagining it?
    maryishere wrote: »
    7 million is not drop in the bucket, its a lot of money. It may not be a lot of money to you, some may feel its only half the cost of a holiday home, but its a lot of money.

    Where are you getting "holiday home" from? Lisadell is the family home of the Walshes and has been since 2005, they have been living there continuously since.

    And Lisadell was open to sale to anyone at the time, it's just that this particular family bought it. That was the price they paid for it, it's no ones business where they got the money from. Does your old bar stool boy follow many people around who buy houses and ask them where they got the money to buy it. There's some bang of begrudgery of him thats rubbing off in your posts.


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    #81
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,320 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    maryishere wrote: »
    as it should, but the right of way road through the estate to the coast is now closed, is it not?

    The point is if Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house everyone would be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off.

    Oh, and you would not be having to help pay off that 7 million.

    Actual councils outside dublin recieve 50 times more funding per person that dublin councils. And the local property tax isn't local. Dublins share will be going to different councils


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    #82
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    ted1 wrote: »
    Actual councils outside dublin recieve 50 times more funding per person that dublin councils. And the local property tax isn't local. Dublins share will be going to different councils

    +1. And Sligo Country Council would not have had to concern itself with the rights of way at Lissadell at all if the previous owner did not sell. Sir Joycelyn and his family were very well respected around the area by all accounts. Pity their estate was decimated by the authorities over the years ( through the land commission and inheritance taxes etc ). Ironic that action taken by the new owners of the estate have cost the County Council ( and you and me ) 7 million.
    And the troika criticising legal fees and structures and yet it remains!

    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Oh, I will. I'm a tax payer in Dublin! Anyone paying tax will be paying for Sligo county councils misadventure.
    But I said you would not be helping to pay for the 7 million legal fees if Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house. Everyone would then be happy : people would have had access through the estate roads same as everyone always had, and the county council would not be 7 million worse off.





    Plazaman wrote: »
    Where are you getting "holiday home" from? Lisadell is the family home of the Walshes and has been since 2005, they have been living there continuously since.
    its a holiday home, the kids in the family do not go to school in Sligo, or so I read in the papers. The family lives in Kildare or on the east side of the country, I seem to remember reading. There is nothing to stop anyone spending 13 million on a holiday home. This type of carry on that happened at Lissadell does not happen in most civilised countries though.

    And in most countries you can go on rights of way and walks in the countryside without hassle. I remember going on holidays to Sligo years ago and seeing lots of signs on benbulben warning against hill walking on the mountain / trespassing. Contrast that to other countries. The country has a lot of learning to do.


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    #83
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    maryishere wrote: »
    ... Ironic that action taken by the new owners of the estate have cost the County Council ( and you and me ) 7 million...
    Not a fair representation: it was the action taken by the County Council that led to the costs. Combined, I accept, with the extremely high fees that lawyers get away with charging.


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    #84
    sillyoulfool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 587 ✭✭✭sillyoulfool


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Not a fair representation: it was the action taken by the County Council that led to the costs. Combined, I accept, with the extremely high fees that lawyers get away with charging.

    The only ones who cost the CC 7 million are the begrudgers who tried to usurp the rights if legal owners of Lisadell to the peaceful occupation of their property. No rights of way were lost because no rights of way existed.


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    #85
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Not a fair representation: it was the action taken by the County Council that led to the costs. Combined, I accept, with the extremely high fees that lawyers get away with charging.

    fair point: I was referring to the new owners of the estate erecting gates on roads, and locking those gates closed, I believe, which led to the county council intervening to preserve what it believed to be rights of way.

    If you are going to pick a fight, do not pick a fight with boxer, where the umpire is also a boxer.


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    #86
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,536 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    maryishere wrote: »
    +1. And Sligo Country Council would not have had to concern itself with the rights of way at Lissadell at all if the previous owner did not sell.

    ? He did sell. Sligo CC should have bought the house if they wanted it.
    maryishere wrote: »
    But I said you would not be helping to pay for the 7 million legal fees if Sir Jocelyn had stayed in the house.

    Again, he did sell. This is stupid.
    maryishere wrote: »
    There is nothing to stop anyone spending 13 million on a holiday home. This type of carry on that happened at Lissadell does not happen in most civilised countries though

    Why should people be stopped buying properties going for market price, who should stop them? The Gardai? Properties like this change hands all the time.

    http://www.ganlywalters.ie/548965/Tulira_Castle_Ardrahan_Galway

    If you don't think people spend €13 million on various properties, castles, palaces, villas, in France, Spain, England, Scotland, Africa... you're deluded.


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    #87
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    I wish, then and now, that the state has purchased the estate entirely and developed it into a Yeats centre with museum, lectures etc. The public would still have had access and Sligo would have had a major attraction.


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    #88
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    Cantremember wrote: »
    I wish, then and now, that the state has purchased the estate entirely and developed it into a Yeats centre with museum, lectures etc. The public would still have had access and Sligo would have had a major attraction.
    Sligo did have a major attraction until the cc started their idiocy. Last year that Lissadell was open under the new owners they had 40k visitors.


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    #89
    slingshot88
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭slingshot88


    maryishere wrote: »
    The house and land cost 3.75 million, not 4 million. 250,000 is not much in the overall scheme of things though. What I would severely doubt is that 9,000,000 was spent on renovation. I was there last year on holidays and the place, from the outside anyway, was more run down than when the previous owners had it. There was even potholes ye could bury an ass in, on the drive through the estate. Shame how the new owners could not maintain it as well as the previous ones.

    As for the 7 million legal fees to sort out a right of way - that just shows what a joke this country is. You could buy about 400 brand new apartments / houses around Sligo for that, with all the unsold houses / ghost estates there are.

    With legal fees so high in this little country, wonder how a couple of barristers can end up affording (to them ) a 13 million holiday home for their family of about 6, when most families in the country are struggling on a fraction of their income.
    The potholes you could bury an ass in only appeared when the dispute over the rights the way started, nothing to do with the mini digger that was parked just a few feet away inside the security fenceing at the house.......


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    #90
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    Sligo did have a major attraction until the cc started their idiocy. Last year that Lissadell was open under the new owners they had 40k visitors.

    Coincidentally, the place was closed off to the public right after the legal requirement for access in order to receive capital allowance tax breaks was complete.


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    #91
    slingshot88
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭slingshot88


    maryishere wrote: »
    have you a link for that? I saw a long tv programme on him about a year ago and he never mentioned such intimidation. The issue of closing the rights of way never arose when he owned Lissadell, so how could he have possibly have been intimidated over same? He had only good things to say about the area and the locals, and it appears all of the locals never had any problem with him.
    Sir joceylyns was liked by one and all, I believe he fell on hard times and that is the reason he sold up


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