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Intercity capacity reconfiguration

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Comments

  • #52
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    I'd see that the ICR reconfiguration has begun recently on the Connolly to Rosslare line.

    From within this past week some of the ICR should be configured now as 4 carriage trains in the mornings to be then increased to 5 carriage trains in the evenings.

    On Monday of this week; I've seen a 4 carriage 22k train to Rosslare passing Seapoint at around 10am. The trains appearance on one side that morning looked filthy dirty with one of the additional carriages added to it only having the new logo not matching with the rest of the train only having it's old logo.

    I know that the rebranding of the ICR's will take time as the months go on as IE will need to have money & the time to carry that work.

    Also later on that day; there appeared to be a 5 carriage 22k passing Blackrock on it's way to Rosslare at around 5pm. The difference was that the 22k unit at the time looked nice & clean on the exterior as it may gotten a new repaint with new logos for definite.

    Although I can't give you any train numbers as they weren't written down somewhere.
    heard about that myself, good news, hopefully this will mean an end to 29 k operation for good on this line, no excuse for it now and never was as far as i'm concerned but i wouldn't expect anything less from a company who's belief is that shiny new trains will sort out all their problems

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #53
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    heard about that myself, good news, hopefully this will mean an end to 29 k operation for good on this line, no excuse for it now and never was as far as i'm concerned but i wouldn't expect anything less from a company who's belief is that shiny new trains will sort out all their problems

    I wouldn't be that sure - there are still exactly the same number of sets around as there were before, and the same number of trains to operate, if not more (given that more Mark 4 sets are to be put into storage).

    The number of sets in daily operation is being driven (if you'll pardon the pun) by the maintenance budget. That may not be enough to cover all of the workings.


  • #54
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I wouldn't be that sure - there are still exactly the same number of sets around as there were before, and the same number of trains to operate, if not more (given that more Mark 4 sets are to be put into storage).

    The number of sets in daily operation is being driven (if you'll pardon the pun) by the maintenance budget. That may not be enough to cover all of the workings.
    ah lx its all excuses from them and i and the rest of the passengers on long distance services out of connolly who have to put up with 29 k operation have had enough and are sick of them, their not our problem and infact just aren't good enough, rosslare and sligo are long distance services so therefore the people using these lines expect the proper trains running the services, people on these lines pay enough and are entitled to a good standard of service at all times like the services out of hueston and their just not getting it, getting it sometimes isn't good enough, get the ICRS off the m3 parkway, start using the KRP properly and put 29s doing the local services out of hueston which their designed for, long distance services on the connolly side always lose out and its not exceptable and it needs to change, ICRS on ICR routes and commuter stock on commuter routes, and as for more mark 4s going into storage, discraseful, irish rail haven't a clue how to manage their rolling stock and if they want passengers to stay with the railway they need to buck up their ideas fast

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #55
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    end of the road wrote: »
    ah lx its all excuses from them and i and the rest of the passengers on long distance services out of connolly who have to put up with 29 k operation have had enough and are sick of them, their not our problem and infact just aren't good enough, rosslare and sligo are long distance services so therefore the people using these lines expect the proper trains running the services, people on these lines pay enough and are entitled to a good standard of service at all times like the services out of hueston and their just not getting it, getting it sometimes isn't good enough, get the ICRS off the m3 parkway, start using the KRP properly and put 29s doing the local services out of hueston which their designed for, long distance services on the connolly side always lose out and its not exceptable and it needs to change, ICRS on ICR routes and commuter stock on commuter routes, and as for more mark 4s going into storage, discraseful, irish rail haven't a clue how to manage their rolling stock and if they want passengers to stay with the railway they need to buck up their ideas fast

    The 22's on Portlaoise are more less scheduled around 22's visits to depot most of the time. They will still be running between Heuston and Portloaise weather they have passengers or not.
    if not more (given that more Mark 4 sets are to be put into storage).

    Won't be possible to store more Mark'4s unless they plan to replace the extra 22's that were being rotated in/out of service . Even with this sets will probably not be used Tue-Thur but will be required at weekends so could it be classed as "storage".

    As it is Peak days require more Mark'4 to take over selected Cork services to allow capacity be boosted on 22 routes.


  • #56
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    The 22's on Portlaoise are more less scheduled around 22's visits to depot most of the time. They will still be running between Heuston and Portloaise weather they have passengers or not.



    Won't be possible to store more Mark'4s unless they plan to replace the extra 22's that were being rotated in/out of service . Even with this sets will probably not be used Tue-Thur but will be required at weekends so could it be classed as "storage".

    As it is Peak days require more Mark'4 to take over selected Cork services to allow capacity be boosted on 22 routes.

    I think that you may find that it has been posted elsewhere that the plan is to remove more Mark 4 sets. Only three sets are going to be in service.

    Bear in mind that some trains that previously may have been 2 x 3 piece may become a single 4 piece, so additional sets to replace Mark 4 sets may be available. It may be that we will be back to maintenance spares with the 22k sets again.


  • #57
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I think that you may find that it has been posted elsewhere that the plan is to remove more Mark 4 sets (possibly on IRN).

    Bear in mind that some trains that previously may have been 2 x 3 piece may become a single 4 piece, so additional sets to replace Mark 4 sets may be available.

    Given the past few weeks there being many 4 piece sets, no services have had capacity cut on Fridays from Heuston, they have being using all 6 piece sets and 7 piece sets. No 4's on busy services so very little room for change.


  • #58
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Given the past few weeks there being many 4 piece sets, no services have had capacity cut on Fridays from Heuston, they have being using all 6 piece sets and 7 piece sets. No 4's on busy services so very little room for change.

    As I posted above - only 3 Mark 4 sets are being retained in service.

    Bear in mind that until now only the high capacity sets have been reconfigured - the Premier sets are only starting now.

    Therefore, most of the capacity issues have been on the Connolly side so far. I would suggest that you will need to wait until more Premier sets have been reconfigured before making a judgement!


  • #59
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    ah lx its all excuses from them and i and the rest of the passengers on long distance services out of connolly who have to put up with 29 k operation have had enough and are sick of them, their not our problem and infact just aren't good enough, rosslare and sligo are long distance services so therefore the people using these lines expect the proper trains running the services, people on these lines pay enough and are entitled to a good standard of service at all times like the services out of hueston and their just not getting it, getting it sometimes isn't good enough, get the ICRS off the m3 parkway, start using the KRP properly and put 29s doing the local services out of hueston which their designed for, long distance services on the connolly side always lose out and its not exceptable and it needs to change, ICRS on ICR routes and commuter stock on commuter routes, and as for more mark 4s going into storage, discraseful, irish rail haven't a clue how to manage their rolling stock and if they want passengers to stay with the railway they need to buck up their ideas fast

    Well if it bothers you that much, why do you still take the train?


  • #60
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    lxflyer wrote: »
    As I posted above - only 3 Mark 4 sets are being retained in service.

    Bear in mind that until now only the high capacity sets have been reconfigured - the Premier sets are only starting now.

    Therefore, most of the capacity issues have been on the Connolly side so far. I would suggest that you will need to wait until more Premier sets have been reconfigured before making a judgement!

    3 Mark 4 sets only required for Cork services currently, so no great loss I suppose. True about the PC sets but still not a lot of room for cuts whatever way you look at it. Everything at 3 out of Huston tens to be standing room only. They tried a 4 coach sets on a few Friday services earlier in the day and they were back to 6 piece sets the next week! This Friday will be the test with only 6 or 7 PC left, will report back on changes to sizes.


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  • #61
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    3 Mark 4 sets only required for Cork services currently, so no great loss I suppose. True about the PC sets but still not a lot of room for cuts whatever way you look at it. Everything at 3 out of Huston tens to be standing room only. They tried a 4 coach sets on a few Friday services earlier in the day and they were back to 6 piece sets the next week! This Friday will be the test with only 6 or 7 PC left, will report back on changes to sizes.

    That's not correct - there are currently 5 Mark 4 sets in operation.


  • #62
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    ah lx its all excuses from them and i and the rest of the passengers on long distance services out of connolly who have to put up with 29 k operation have had enough and are sick of them, their not our problem and infact just aren't good enough, rosslare and sligo are long distance services so therefore the people using these lines expect the proper trains running the services, people on these lines pay enough and are entitled to a good standard of service at all times like the services out of hueston and their just not getting it, getting it sometimes isn't good enough, get the ICRS off the m3 parkway, start using the KRP properly and put 29s doing the local services out of hueston which their designed for, long distance services on the connolly side always lose out and its not exceptable and it needs to change, ICRS on ICR routes and commuter stock on commuter routes, and as for more mark 4s going into storage, discraseful, irish rail haven't a clue how to manage their rolling stock and if they want passengers to stay with the railway they need to buck up their ideas fast

    It is not as easy and straightforward as you seem to think it is.

    Bizarrely enough, sets have to be maintained. Some by day, and some by night.

    Most of the Dublin/Portlaoise local services are operated by sets going to/from the depot for/after maintenance. Replace them with 29k sets and what do you end up with? Lots of empty running to/from Portlaoise depot by the ICR sets that are going there.

    A similar problem exists in Connolly in that ICR sets have to rotate around the links to end up in Drogheda for maintenance. Some of that maintenance is during the day, some is at night. However, this is not helped by the fact that one ICR sits in Sligo for an extended period overnight each day.

    I think realistically you will have to wait until the next timetable change for any meaningful changes on Rosslare in terms of ICR operation. This is down to a combination of new links being needed to better match the ICR sets to Intercity services, while still getting to Drogheda for their required maintenance. Ultimately, the problem on the Connolly side is not enough spare ICR sets, and sets being in the wrong place to operate the Rosslare trains.

    Perhaps you may like to have a chat with the government in terms of providing more money to keep the trains in service if it is bothering you so much. I doubt you will get very far. IE is no different to every other public service in this country right now - they are all cutting back.


  • #63
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    lxflyer wrote: »
    As I posted above - only 3 Mark 4 sets are being retained in service.
    3? is that all? absolutely ridiculous, these were bought for the cork service specifically and now they want to "store" them after 7/8 years in service? LOL, what a shambles, once these go into storage thats it the breakers will come in a few years after they go through irish rails natural bio degrading program

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #64
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well if it bothers you that much, why do you still take the train?
    because i like taking the train and i'm not going to be driven away to inferior alternatives that i've tried before and weren't happy with, of course irish rail would love us all on the rosslare and sligo lines to go to other alternatives so they can shut and rip them up but i won't be one of them

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #65
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It is not as easy and straightforward as you seem to think it is.

    Bizarrely enough, sets have to be maintained. Some by day, and some by night.

    Most of the Dublin/Portlaoise local services are operated by sets going to/from the depot for/after maintenance. Replace them with 29k sets and what do you end up with? Lots of empty running to/from Portlaoise depot by the ICR sets that are going there.

    A similar problem exists in Connolly in that ICR sets have to rotate around the links to end up in Drogheda for maintenance. Some of that maintenance is during the day, some is at night. However, this is not helped by the fact that one ICR sits in Sligo for an extended period overnight each day.

    I think realistically you will have to wait until the next timetable change for any meaningful changes on Rosslare in terms of ICR operation. This is down to a combination of new links being needed to better match the ICR sets to Intercity services, while still getting to Drogheda for their required maintenance. Ultimately, the problem on the Connolly side is not enough spare ICR sets, and sets being in the wrong place to operate the Rosslare trains.

    Perhaps you may like to have a chat with the government in terms of providing more money to keep the trains in service if it is bothering you so much. I doubt you will get very far. IE is no different to every other public service in this country right now - they are all cutting back.
    excuses excuses excuses excuses, if they can't manage to fit the huge amount of trains around the maintenance cycle then time to employ somebody who will bother to go through every little detail to make sure that the sets can be where their supposed to be and get the required maintenance, the way their doing it is a shambles and thats the end of it, we shouldn't have to be waiting for timetable changes to get the proper trains on the different types of services, it should have been done from the get go, the shambles at the moment means passengers are losing out, customers who it might be their first time on a service and end up with a 29 k don't bother coming back and tell their friends and thats more potential customers lost, they managed perfectly when they had loco hauled carriges, the commuter stock operated the commuter routes and were fine, and the loco hauled carriges got whatever little maintenance which could have been way better in the case of the mark 2s which were deliberately left to rot, replace loco hauled carriges with DMUS and they can't manage it and its us on the rosslare and sligo lines who lose out as per, IE'S vendetta against the rosslare line needs to end, believe me i would be writing all day every day to the minister if i thought it would work.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #66
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    excuses excuses excuses excuses, if they can't manage to fit the huge amount of trains around the maintenance cycle then time to employ somebody who will bother to go through every little detail to make sure that the sets can be where their supposed to be and get the required maintenance, the way their doing it is a shambles and thats the end of it, we shouldn't have to be waiting for timetable changes to get the proper trains on the different types of services, it should have been done from the get go, the shambles at the moment means passengers are losing out, customers who it might be their first time on a service and end up with a 29 k don't bother coming back and tell their friends and thats more potential customers lost, they managed perfectly when they had loco hauled carriges, the commuter stock operated the commuter routes and were fine, and the loco hauled carriges got whatever little maintenance which could have been way better in the case of the mark 2s which were deliberately left to rot, replace loco hauled carriges with DMUS and they can't manage it and its us on the rosslare and sligo lines who lose out as per, IE'S vendetta against the rosslare line needs to end, believe me i would be writing all day every day to the minister if i thought it would work.

    Well perhaps in your ideal world you can find the money to operate all of these extra trains! At the end of the day that is what it boils down to.

    I don't disagree that the Rosslare services should be ICR operated, for what it's worth, but it is not as simple as you seem to think. Rostering is far more complicated, and they don't have the same wriggle room any more in terms of sets available and money to operate them all!


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  • #67
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,209 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well perhaps in your ideal world you can find the money to operate all of these extra trains! At the end of the day that is what it boils down to.

    I don't disagree that the Rosslare services should be ICR operated, for what it's worth, but it is not as simple as you seem to think. Rostering is far more complicated, and they don't have the same wriggle room any more in terms of sets available and money to operate them all!

    What extra trains? The point being made is simple. Why have a commuter train on an IC run and an IC train on a commuter run? Can you explain that to me? They have the trains in place so why is it so?


  • #68
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    What extra trains? The point being made is simple. Why have a commuter train on an IC run and an IC train on a commuter run? Can you explain that to me? They have the trains in place so why is it so?

    He's talking about retaining locomotive hauled trains - something that would cost more.

    The point is that there have never been enough ICR sets to cover all of the Intercity services on the Connolly side and allow for maintenance at Drogheda as well. That's the problem. Hence, from what I can see you can end up with a DMU on an IC trip while the ICR is in maintenance, and then the ICR ends up on a commuter trip later.

    The sets have to rotate through Drogheda for maintenance within a certain timeframe, and that causes rostering problems as there are no ICR sets sitting around doing nothing in Connolly.

    And of late the company cannot afford to operate any additional trains over the number it has in service. Hence my point with regard to finding the money to operate them.

    And personally I think that problem may continue. I could of course be wrong, but I suspect not.


  • #69
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    lxflyer wrote: »
    He's talking about retaining locomotive hauled trains - something that would cost more.
    no, thats not what i'm talking about at all, what i did say was that when we had loco hauled carriges they were able to schedule maintenance and have them back in service on the right routes even though we had 4 types of commuter rolling stock in service in the dublin area rather then 1 now, yet even though the loco hauled carriges have been replaced with DMUS they can't seem to manage the right ones on the right services, i also mentioned how ridiculous it is putting 7/8 year old carriges in storage after we spending a large amount of money on them, i do expect if we spend money on loco hauled carriges which we did for the cork service that they be used instead of being thrown into storage to rot, same with other perfectly good stock such as the 2700s the mark 3s and the stored 201s, you buy rolling stock then find work for it, simple.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    The point is that there have never been enough ICR sets to cover all of the Intercity services on the Connolly side and allow for maintenance at Drogheda as well. That's the problem.
    yes, and its nothing short of shambolic considering we bought a good lot of them, unless i'm right and their deliberately trying to make things difficult for certain lines by keeping 29s on them
    lxflyer wrote: »
    Hence, from what I can see you can end up with a DMU on an IC trip while the ICR is in maintenance, and then the ICR ends up on a commuter trip later.
    then why bother with 2 types of rolling stock, either buy ICR style stock or commuter stock for the lot, the only time an ICR should operate a commuter route is if its going for maintenance
    lxflyer wrote: »
    The sets have to rotate through Drogheda for maintenance within a certain timeframe, and that causes rostering problems as there are no ICR sets sitting around doing nothing in Connolly.
    we bought enough of the bluddy things and theirs rostering problems? shambolic, schedule them properly and their shouldn't be a problem
    lxflyer wrote: »
    And of late the company cannot afford to operate any additional trains over the number it has in service. Hence my point with regard to finding the money to operate them.
    they wouldn't be operating additional trains, they would be operating the trains where their supposed to operate and scheduling the maintenance around that making sure they get back to where their supposed to, something they did for years and other railways do, you won't find a pacer operating a service from london to scotland because the passengers on such services wouldn't tolerate it and rightly so, so theirs just no excuse here.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #70
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,243 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    LX, at times you are actually wasting your time explaining train paths, diagrams, train links and service withdrawals to these guys; this is before you allow for services stepping in for failures or delays which may happen or base economics such as running smaller sets to make good on fuel economy, work/deparmental trains, driver hours etc. Many of them seem to think it's a matter of picking up a train set and placing it where they reckon it's to be needed, like their Marks Model O gauge at home.


  • #71
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,537 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    There is a point that I would like to make sure that the practice of 22k rolling stock operating train services from Pearse to either Drogheda, Dundalk and Maynooth really has to stop now.

    I seen a fair few examples where 6 carriage ICR's are operating to Dundalk or Drogheda and this is wasteful even when you look back at the past probably around the late 90's to early Noughties. A lot of us would have seen before that plenty of 071's & possibly 201's were running commuter trains out of Pearse to the same destinations so it's not a new phenomenon happening within IE.

    This would have happened because the ARROW service was going through a shortage of rolling stock even when the 29k stock was being ordered for the company before they came into IE in 2006.

    Even in 2006 I was going on my Holidays down to Wexford Town. The trains used for the Connolly to Rosslare service was a 6 or 8 car ARROW set in Commuter livery. I was on that train myself with my mum. When it was going along past Brittas Bay after leaving Greystones; the driver at the time was literally trying to brake a sweat for attempting to make it run along the track at a high enough speed for trying to get to arrive at Wicklow Town on time.

    That sort of logic in itself is unacceptable but a also very dangerous thing to undertake. I mean if that train would have went off the track at given any moment; there would have been a serious accident that would have been preventable in the first place.

    If every IE driver did that on that particular route back than; it is no wonder that part of that fleet on IE's word is possibly banjaxed (my word not theirs) to ever run again.

    A message to IE here.

    Do not run trains that are not designed for their route even when you feel like running them when they are near your footsteps. You will run the potential risk of losing lives & it shouldn't be in your logic to do that under any circumstance.


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  • #72
    bikeman1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    There is a point that I would like to make sure that the practice of 22k rolling stock operating train services from Pearse to either Drogheda, Dundalk and Maynooth really has to stop now.

    I seen a fair few examples where 6 carriage ICR's are operating to Dundalk or Drogheda and this is wasteful even when you look back at the past probably around the late 90's to early Noughties. A lot of us would have seen before that plenty of 071's & possibly 201's were running commuter trains out of Pearse to the same destinations so it's not a new phenomenon happening within IE.

    This would have happened because the ARROW service was going through a shortage of rolling stock even when the 29k stock was being ordered for the company before they came into IE in 2006.

    Even in 2006 I was going on my Holidays down to Wexford Town. The trains used for the Connolly to Rosslare service was a 6 or 8 car ARROW set in Commuter livery. I was on that train myself with my mum. When it was going along past Brittas Bay after leaving Greystones; the driver at the time was literally trying to brake a sweat for attempting to make it run along the track at a high enough speed for trying to get to arrive at Wicklow Town on time.

    That sort of logic in itself is unacceptable but a also very dangerous thing to undertake. I mean if that train would have went off the track at given any moment; there would have been a serious accident that would have been preventable in the first place.

    If every IE driver did that on that particular route back than; it is no wonder that part of that fleet on IE's word is possibly banjaxed (my word not theirs) to ever run again.

    A message to IE here.

    Do not run trains that are not designed for their route even when you feel like running them when they are near your footsteps. You will run the potential risk of losing lives & it shouldn't be in your logic to do that under any circumstance.

    What are you talking about? Are you saying that because the ride on the 28s was uncomfortable that they were operating at a dangerous speed and a train could have de railed? Seriously? The line speed is determined by professional engineers.

    The driver was hardly breaking a sweat while driving. The 2800s did a sterling service, with extremely difficult diagrams when they worked the Drogheda / Dublin / Rosslare. A journey they weren't designed for. Any delays on that route are normally as a result of poor regulation with the all stations Dart from Greystones, not the train type.


  • #73
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,243 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    bikeman1 wrote: »
    What are you talking about? Are you saying that because the ride on the 28s was uncomfortable that they were operating at a dangerous speed and a train could have de railed? Seriously? The line speed is determined by professional engineers.

    The driver was hardly breaking a sweat while driving. The 2800s did a sterling service, with extremely difficult diagrams when they worked the Drogheda / Dublin / Rosslare. A journey they weren't designed for. Any delays on that route are normally as a result of poor regulation with the all stations Dart from Greystones, not the train type.

    He was doing well to see a driver breaking a sweat in his cab, considering that he is locked off at the front of the train and is not in any way viewable from the carriage :)

    As an aside, the speed limit on the Greystones-Wicklow section is not even close to the 70 MPH that commuter DMU's are able to do.


  • #74
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    There is a point that I would like to make sure that the practice of 22k rolling stock operating train services from Pearse to either Drogheda, Dundalk and Maynooth really has to stop now.

    I seen a fair few examples where 6 carriage ICR's are operating to Dundalk or Drogheda and this is wasteful even when you look back at the past probably around the late 90's to early Noughties. A lot of us would have seen before that plenty of 071's & possibly 201's were running commuter trains out of Pearse to the same destinations so it's not a new phenomenon happening within IE.

    This would have happened because the ARROW service was going through a shortage of rolling stock even when the 29k stock was being ordered for the company before they came into IE in 2006.

    Even in 2006 I was going on my Holidays down to Wexford Town. The trains used for the Connolly to Rosslare service was a 6 or 8 car ARROW set in Commuter livery. I was on that train myself with my mum. When it was going along past Brittas Bay after leaving Greystones; the driver at the time was literally trying to brake a sweat for attempting to make it run along the track at a high enough speed for trying to get to arrive at Wicklow Town on time.

    That sort of logic in itself is unacceptable but a also very dangerous thing to undertake. I mean if that train would have went off the track at given any moment; there would have been a serious accident that would have been preventable in the first place.

    If every IE driver did that on that particular route back than; it is no wonder that part of that fleet on IE's word is possibly banjaxed (my word not theirs) to ever run again.

    A message to IE here.

    Do not run trains that are not designed for their route even when you feel like running them when they are near your footsteps. You will run the potential risk of losing lives & it shouldn't be in your logic to do that under any circumstance.
    the 2700s had such problems, they spent most of their time giving out on the rosslare line as they couldn't handle it, shame it didn't kill all the commuter stock as that might then teach irish rail a lesson not to be running it on long distance services, oh and i don't think its simply picking up a set and plonking it on the tracks somewhere else, but considering the amount of ICRS we bought theirs just no excuse for them not to be running the long distance services at all times, how come they can manage it on the hueston side? oh yeah, i forgot, their more important and more worth while bothering about then the connolly lot, lets be honest thats probably the answer.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #75
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    bikeman1 wrote: »
    What are you talking about? Are you saying that because the ride on the 28s was uncomfortable that they were operating at a dangerous speed and a train could have de railed? Seriously? The line speed is determined by professional engineers.

    The driver was hardly breaking a sweat while driving. The 2800s did a sterling service, with extremely difficult diagrams when they worked the Drogheda / Dublin / Rosslare. A journey they weren't designed for. Any delays on that route are normally as a result of poor regulation with the all stations Dart from Greystones, not the train type.
    he's talking about the 2700s which were s//t and couldn't handle the route at all, the 2800s handled the rosslare route just about but still good riddens to them, the 29s handle the route fine but shouldn't be there as their commuter stock.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #76
    bikeman1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    end of the road wrote: »
    he's talking about the 2700s which were s//t and couldn't handle the route at all, the 2800s handled the rosslare route just about but still good riddens to them, the 29s handle the route fine but shouldn't be there as their commuter stock.

    Dublinman1990 was suggesting that the units used on the route (not specifying 27s or 28s) were unsafe, which they were not.

    It was a classic case of, like the Sligo line, we want new trains we want new trains. Ok heres a newish train, oh wait I actually prefer the old trains.

    With the changing of all the 22s around, we should see 4 car 22s on the Rosslare, which is perfect for the route. But until everything is done there will still be 29s working the route.


  • #77
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,243 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    end of the road wrote: »
    how come they can manage it on the hueston side? oh yeah, i forgot, their more important and more worth while bothering about then the connolly lot, lets be honest thats probably the answer.

    There are only 2 regular suburban routes out of Heuston, the Kildare/Newbridge and Port Laois services. Of these, Port Laois is a service depot and driver base and Heuston has a service depot so links are easier to work with. Connolly has the Maynooth/M3, Longford, Balbriggan, Dundalk and Wicklow/Wexford services to contend with. Even then, commuter stock still shows up on Kildare services so it's not an exact science.


  • #78
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    There are only 2 regular suburban routes out of Heuston, the Kildare/Newbridge and Port Laois services. Of these, Port Laois is a service depot and driver base and Heuston has a service depot so links are easier to work with. Connolly has the Maynooth/M3, Longford, Balbriggan, Dundalk and Wicklow/Wexford services to contend with. Even then, commuter stock still shows up on Kildare services so it's not an exact science.
    commuter stock should be doing all local Kildare services, thats the type of service their designed for, not long distance services, as i said, you don't see pacers doing services between london and scotland

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #79
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    end of the road wrote: »
    commuter stock should be doing all local Kildare services, thats the type of service their designed for, not long distance services, as i said, you don't see pacers doing services between london and scotland

    There are virtually no Kildare local services left anymore.

    They are virtually all to/from Portlaoise and I have explained numerous times these are generally used to transfer sets to/from the depot for maintenance.


  • #80
    kc56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭kc56


    lxflyer wrote: »
    There are virtually no Kildare local services left anymore.

    They are virtually all to/from Portlaoise and I have explained numerous times these are generally used to transfer sets to/from the depot for maintenance.

    Add to that is 90/100mph running in the longer sections between stations. ICRs regularly reach these speeds even when on commuter runs. Commuter stock limited to 70mph.


  • #81
    GTE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭GTE


    So, with the exception of the Rosslare route which seems to have not been given the ICR due to their previous configurations, what is so bad about mix and matching them on the Heuston routes given the money it saves for maintenance and not doubling up with empty trains?

    Getting an intercity train for a local route would be nice and comfy no? First world problems I say.


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  • #82
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,243 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    kc56 wrote: »
    Add to that is 90/100mph running in the longer sections between stations. ICRs regularly reach these speeds even when on commuter runs. Commuter stock limited to 70mph.

    Some of the 22's were ordered and fitted out to work on commuter services. Perish the thought that they are put to use on same.


  • #83
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    well frankly i don't care about the excuses, i'm board of them and they were never good enough, ICRS should be running the long distance services at all times, not when IE feels like it or can be bothered to find one to operate them, they manage it on the hueston side so no excuses for connolly, we bought enough of them and its due to mismanagement of the rolling stock and incompitents that it isn't happening

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #84
    GTE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭GTE


    Apologies, but I couldn't help getting this image reading parts of this thread.

    So angry!

    angry-desk-flip.png

    Strongly worded letters would be better than keyboard bashing.


  • #85
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    bbk wrote: »
    Apologies, but I couldn't help getting this image reading parts of this thread.

    So angry!

    angry-desk-flip.png

    Strongly worded letters would be better than keyboard bashing.
    if their was a chance they would work i'd imagine people would be writing them, i certainly would, truth is though, they don't

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • #86
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    LX, at times you are actually wasting your time explaining train paths, diagrams, train links and service withdrawals to these guys; this is before you allow for services stepping in for failures or delays which may happen or base economics such as running smaller sets to make good on fuel economy, work/deparmental trains, driver hours etc. Many of them seem to think it's a matter of picking up a train set and placing it where they reckon it's to be needed, like their Marks Model O gauge at home.
    You might phrase this in a less personal way.

    Moderator


  • #87
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    If only IE had gone C4K on the commuter order. No end doors so lower dwell times, 90mph top speed so good fit for Northern Line and good-ish for Kildare (certainly within KRP), maybe could have been crewed by NIR when subbing for an Enterprise instead of sending 75mph 29s.


  • #88
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    dowlingm wrote: »
    If only IE had gone C4K on the commuter order. No end doors so lower dwell times, 90mph top speed so good fit for Northern Line and good-ish for Kildare (certainly within KRP), maybe could have been crewed by NIR when subbing for an Enterprise instead of sending 75mph 29s.

    Don't see the issue about the doors and there location, do a test on the network and the difference in time will be next to nothing worth talking about. The problem is passengers who expect to exit the train as if it was the last stop and the world revolves around them.


  • #89
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,243 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    dowlingm wrote: »
    If only IE had gone C4K on the commuter order. No end doors so lower dwell times, 90mph top speed so good fit for Northern Line and good-ish for Kildare (certainly within KRP), maybe could have been crewed by NIR when subbing for an Enterprise instead of sending 75mph 29s.

    The C4K are not close to being the same sort of vehicle as a 22000. They are a slightly adapted version of a C3K internally (which itself is very similar to a 29000). Mechanically they are fitted with an different engine, gearbox and auxiliary generator system; it is capable of a faster operation speed but it is still a commuter train. The 22000 is built and fitted to work on longer trips; some have different seats for long distance commuter workings but as trains go they are two very different beasties.

    The fact that NIR has finally ordered stock capable of the line's maximum speed suggests that it's to be used on stand in trips. Also, it suggests that it has no long term plans to increase line speeds at it's end. The general 70MPH speed across the border is the main reason why Mark 2's and 29's worked on NIR lines over the faster Mark 3's and 22000s.


  • #90
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,141 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Don't see the issue about the doors and there location, do a test on the network and the difference in time will be next to nothing worth talking about. The problem is passengers who expect to exit the train as if it was the last stop and the world revolves around them.
    the wider and the more doors you have the quicker people can exit and board meaning less dwelling time at a station, this has been prooven

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



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  • #91
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,243 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    end of the road wrote: »
    the wider and the more doors you have the quicker people can exit and board meaning less dwelling time at a station, this has been prooven

    This is correct, passengers can move on and off safer and quicker. Also, a train with doors mid way in allows for more standees on board.


  • #92
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,756 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    This is correct, passengers can move on and off safer and quicker. Also, a train with doors mid way in allows for more standees on board.

    Trains will always stop at a station between 30-90 seconds no matter what type of doors, that won't change anytime with centre or end doors. Someone provide stats from IE real time to back it up as being on both going to/from Maynooth for example and there is no difference in times.

    What do you mean move off safer are you suggesting that half if IE's fleet isn't safe for large numbers using it. No difference what so ever, if you going to fall your going to fall. No half measures.

    Remember people standing is the problem, they all want seats.


  • #93
    n0brain3r
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 919 ✭✭✭n0brain3r


    Didn't want to derail :P the photo thread so am posting here following on from this post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88778282&postcount=1131

    Where the changes to the first reconfig prompted by the 4 car ICR's with premier cars or was there more to it?


  • #94
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,921 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Yes - that was it.

    Originally sets 22031-22034 lost two coaches each.

    One coach from set 22031 went to 22001 and the second to 22002, 22032 to 22003 and 22004, and so on, so that sets 22x01 to 22x08 all had been reformed to four car.

    However, once it was realised that the 4 car Premier Class sets were a complete disaster from a capacity perspective, it was decided to reform the Premier sets as 5 piece. This meant the coach from 22001 going back to 22031, 22003 to 22032 etc., so that one of the original coaches went back into the original sets.

    This would however have left three and four car sets intermixed (set 1 would be 3-piece, set 2 a 4-piece, set 3 a 3 piece etc.).

    So to keep a semblance of common sense in the numbering, the 4th cars from sets 2, 4, 6 and 8 are being moved to sets 11, 12, 13 and 14.

    The result will be:
    Sets 1-10 - 3 car
    Sets 11-30 - 4 car
    Sets 31-40 - 5 car Premier class
    Sets 41-45 - 4 car
    Sets 46-63 - 3 car


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