Ireland 3rd highest homicide rate

Problem123456 · 18-12-2012 1:29pm #1

on this list wtf?

Immaculate Pasta · 18-12-2012 1:32pm

It's all in the game yo

Mr Benevolent · 18-12-2012 1:34pm

Probably includes Northern Ireland.

18-12-2012 1:37pm

Thankfully it is likely that most of our deaths involving firearms have been gang related. Better they kill themselves than others.

Hogzy · 18-12-2012 1:38pm

Thread title couldnt be any more misleading. Nor could the link that you provided. These arent the Top 10. They are only selected countries.

The sources are over 10years old aswell and I would imagine Northern Ireland is included in Ireland.

Also remember we have a tiny population so we probably have one of the lowest murder count.

Witcher · 18-12-2012 1:38pm

Their firearms ownership rate is wrong and in our case it's not really relevant anyway, few if any murders here are committed with legally held firearms..the criminals here don't steal or legally purchase the firearms that they use in gangland killings...they get them elsewhere.

Edit; figures are from 2002...explains the difference in ownership rates.

Dodge · 18-12-2012 1:39pm

8.3 homicides by gun per million population in 2002

So 25-43* homicides in 2002? I call BS

*depending on what figure they use

LivelineDipso · 18-12-2012 1:40pm

Third heighest what?

Oh a small selection of countries?

Congradulations on becoming an Irish newspaoer journalist!

Put the hundreds of countries not on that list on there and then we would have some real stats.

I can see this weekend's Sindo: "IRELAND NUMBER THREE MURDER NATION ON EARTH"

and it causing orgasm on Joe Duffy on Monday.

Hogzy · 18-12-2012 2:02pm

Ireland had a population of ~4 million in 2002.

The above chart says we have 144,500 guns in the country. That would mean there are 0.036125 guns per person. Multiply that by 100 and its 3.16125 guns per 100 people in Ireland. The chart says its 3 times that.

LOAD OF SHYTE

Death and Taxes · 18-12-2012 2:34pm

Problem123456 wrote: »

on this list wtf?

Read the small print, the figures are 10 years out of date!

Eoin · 18-12-2012 3:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Thankfully it is likely that most of our deaths involving firearms have been gang related. Better they kill themselves than others.

Unfortunately they do both - Shane Geoghegan, some young plumber who happened to be in a house during another shooting etc.

Witcher · 18-12-2012 3:06pm

Eoin wrote: »

Unfortunately they do both - Shane Geoghegan, some young plumber who happened to be in a house during another shooting etc.

They were still linked to gangland hits, one was mistaken identity and the other just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Random shootings involving innocents don't happen here at the drop of a hat, usually linked to criminality in some way.

Eoin · 18-12-2012 3:36pm

Blay wrote: »

They were still linked to gangland hits, one was mistaken identity and the other just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Random shootings involving innocents don't happen here at the drop of a hat, usually linked to criminality in some way.

That was my point though - it's not just a case of the gangs taking out each other, they're taking out innocent people too.

Haelium · 18-12-2012 3:41pm

Looking at "gun crime" can be misleading. You can easily show that a country with more guns has more gun related homicides, but why does that matter? It is important to look at the overall homicide rate. A gun is a tool, taking guns away doesn't stop people from murdering each other, it just means they have to use a knife instead.

fasttalkerchat · 18-12-2012 3:43pm

The troubles would be counted as i individual homicides since it wasn't a war as such.

Dodge · 18-12-2012 4:55pm

Haelium wrote: »

Looking at "gun crime" can be misleading. You can easily show that a country with more guns has more gun related homicides, but why does that matter? It is important to look at the overall homicide rate. A gun is a tool, taking guns away doesn't stop people from murdering each other, it just means they have to use a knife instead.

There are no drive by knifings in the world*. By all means education and preventions should be the key, but that and gun control are not mutally exclusive. Both can be done

*Clearly drive bys aren't reular in Ireland. But most shooting are done from a save enough distance for the shooter to escape. Knives (and others) don't afford the same protection

Stinicker · 18-12-2012 5:25pm

Ireland has one of the highest murder rates per head of population. However the vast majority of these crimes are drug related and gang warfare in Dublin and Limerick. Ireland has only 9 guns per 100 people and legally held firearms are not a problem in Ireland as they are very restricted. Far too restricted in my opinion as I believe every one should have the right to bear arms.

Dublin is one of the most dangerous cities in Europe at the moment and crime is absolutely rampant because of a lack of legislation, weak judiciary and a lack of proper sentencing and the death penalty for murderers. The Gardai exist almost solely to enforce speed limits on our roads and to help the state spend money. They do nothing against crime and as a result paramilitarys and gangs find Ireland the land of opportunity. Love/Hate on RTÉ is their most successful drama ever however ever single thing in it is true and is a fact of life in our cities.

Eoin · 18-12-2012 5:58pm

Stinicker wrote: »

Ireland has one of the highest murder rates per head of population. However the vast majority of these crimes are drug related and gang warfare in Dublin and Limerick. Ireland has only 9 guns per 100 people and legally held firearms are not a problem in Ireland as they are very restricted. Far too restricted in my opinion as I believe every one should have the right to bear arms.

Dublin is one of the most dangerous cities in Europe at the moment and crime is absolutely rampant because of a lack of legislation, weak judiciary and a lack of proper sentencing and the death penalty for murderers. The Gardai exist almost solely to enforce speed limits on our roads and to help the state spend money. They do nothing against crime and as a result paramilitarys and gangs find Ireland the land of opportunity. Love/Hate on RTÉ is their most successful drama ever however ever single thing in it is true and is a fact of life in our cities.

I think the USA demonstrates that the death penalty, high incarceration rates and high gun ownership might not be a great model to follow.

I'd hate to live somewhere where I thought I needed a gun to protect myself.

franktheplank · 18-12-2012 6:09pm

Eoin wrote: »

I think the USA demonstrates that the death penalty, high incarceration rates and high gun ownership might not be a great model to follow.

I'd hate to live somewhere where I thought I needed a gun to protect myself.

I do think it goes further than just these factors. For example Switzerland has very high gun ownership but very low crime while Columbia and Jamaica have very low gun ownership rates they have high crime levels (and I don't think either of these countries has a softly softly approach to crime either).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

I think a lot has to do with the culture and ideology of a country or area, economic factors, education, employment opportunities etc.

Procrastastudy · 18-12-2012 6:15pm

Stinicker wrote: »

Ireland has one of the highest murder rates per head of population. However the vast majority of these crimes are drug related and gang warfare in Dublin and Limerick. Ireland has only 9 guns per 100 people and legally held firearms are not a problem in Ireland as they are very restricted. Far too restricted in my opinion as I believe every one should have the right to bear arms.

Dublin is one of the most dangerous cities in Europe at the moment and crime is absolutely rampant because of a lack of legislation, weak judiciary and a lack of proper sentencing and the death penalty for murderers. The Gardai exist almost solely to enforce speed limits on our roads and to help the state spend money. They do nothing against crime and as a result paramilitarys and gangs find Ireland the land of opportunity. Love/Hate on RTÉ is their most successful drama ever however ever single thing in it is true and is a fact of life in our cities.

What absolute and utter bollocks. UNODC figures

Eoin · 18-12-2012 6:20pm

franktheplank wrote: »

I do think it goes further than just these factors. For example Switzerland has very high gun ownership but very low crime while Columbia and Jamaica have very low gun ownership rates they have high crime levels (and I don't think either of these countries has a softly softly approach to crime either).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

I think a lot has to do with the culture and ideology of a country or area, economic factors, education, employment opportunities etc.

Good points well made. I don't think Ireland is in a state where we need guns to defend ourselves though. I don't think you can close that door once it's opened.

I agree that the jail sentences being handed out are often a joke in Ireland, but I don't think increasing them will do much to act as a deterrent. It will get them off the streets but they'll be replaced. If these people know they're as likely to be shot dead, will a higher risk of being jailed scare them?

Procrastastudy · 18-12-2012 6:21pm

Eoin wrote: »

Good points well made. I don't think Ireland is in a state where we need guns to defend ourselves. I don't think you can close that door once it's opened.

I agree that the jail sentences being handed out are often a joke in Ireland, but I don't think increasing them will do much to act as a deterrent. It will get them off the streets but they'll be replaced. If these people know they're as likely to be shot dead, will a higher risk of being jailed scare them?

What sentences do you think are a joke? We hand down life sentences for murder with an average 17 year term. We're pretty average in that regard.

Chuck Stone · 18-12-2012 6:33pm

Dale Mailey?

Is that you?

JuliusCaesar · 18-12-2012 6:40pm

Stinicker wrote: »

Dublin is one of the most dangerous cities in Europe at the moment and crime is absolutely rampant because of a lack of legislation, weak judiciary and a lack of proper sentencing and the death penalty for murderers. The Gardai exist almost solely to enforce speed limits on our roads and to help the state spend money. They do nothing against crime and as a result paramilitarys and gangs find Ireland the land of opportunity. Love/Hate on RTÉ is their most successful drama ever however ever single thing in it is true and is a fact of life in our cities.

Wha'?

crime is absolutely rampant

Let's see: in approximately 40 years of living in Dublin, I've been broken into once, and had a bicycle stolen. Both of these happened more than 10 years ago. Oh yeah, a guy tried to steal my purse out of my handbag on the Green Line Luas, but got off at the next stop after I yelled at him. And I had my entire money robbed from my bag in Bewleys in 1980 - it was 50p.

I go into the city centre at night at least once a week, and generally go home on the last Red Line Luas; and in 40 years, this is my experience of crime.

crime is absolutely rampant

:rolleyes: I won't even get started on the rest of your post.

Eoin · 18-12-2012 6:41pm

Procrastastudy wrote: »

What sentences do you think are a joke? We hand down life sentences for murder with an average 17 year term. We're pretty average in that regard.

Murder maybe - not sure about manslaughter, sexual offences, assaults etc.

But that's not really my point either way. My point is that I don't think that it would be much of a deterrent, even if the sentences were double.

Procrastastudy · 18-12-2012 6:49pm

Eoin wrote: »

Murder maybe - not sure about manslaughter, sexual offences, assaults etc.

But that's not really my point either way. My point is that I don't think that it would be much of a deterrent, even if the sentences were double.

On sentences; sexual offences are obviously dealt with in camera but sit in on a manslaughter case or two and see if you still think the same. You may very well and that's fair enough but the Irish judiciary, in the main, are some of the most down to earth and in touch going - much more so than the average man on the street in all honesty.

As for less serious crime our prisons do more harm than good in many cases. Frankly the system is FUBAR due to the narrow minded 'Daily Mail readers'. No politician is going to adopt the liberal and effective approach we so desperately need as it looks soft on crime. The €100K a year it costs to jail someone is generally much better spent. We're the only country in Europe not to have a spent convictions system, and the one proposed is one of the most ineffective. Our proposed DNA database will make the UK (currently the most draconian) look positively soft.

Your point on sentences is well made and correct - even doubling sentences would do nothing to reduce crime as you rightly point out you only need to look at the US to see what high gun ownership and long prison sentences do.

errlloyd · 18-12-2012 6:52pm

Why would the UN collect stats on "England" which isn't a member state. I call bull****.

Procrastastudy · 18-12-2012 6:54pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Why would the UN collect stats on "England" which isn't a member state. I call bull****.

It is possible as Scotland is a separate legal system and NI has it's own issues. However given the UNODC doesn't distinguish somewhat backs up your BS detector.

errlloyd · 18-12-2012 7:26pm

Procrastastudy wrote: »

It is possible as Scotland is a separate legal system and NI has it's own issues. However given the UNODC doesn't distinguish somewhat backs up your BS detector.

Louisana is a separate legal system, doesn't effect Americas stats. Wales is the same legal system, doesn't mean it went in as England and Wales.

Procrastastudy · 18-12-2012 7:34pm

errlloyd wrote: »

Louisana is a separate legal system, doesn't effect Americas stats. Wales is the same legal system, doesn't mean it went in as England and Wales.

US system is totally different to the way stats are collected in the UK. England and Wales are almost never separated. England (inc Wales) NI and Scotland frequently are.

DNA database is one example - NI and Scotland run it totally differently to England.

Me_Grapes · 18-12-2012 9:51pm

Stinicker wrote: »

Ireland has one of the highest murder rates per head of population. However the vast majority of these crimes are drug related and gang warfare in Dublin and Limerick. Ireland has only 9 guns per 100 people and legally held firearms are not a problem in Ireland as they are very restricted. Far too restricted in my opinion as I believe every one should have the right to bear arms.

Dublin is one of the most dangerous cities in Europe at the moment and crime is absolutely rampant because of a lack of legislation, weak judiciary and a lack of proper sentencing and the death penalty for murderers. The Gardai exist almost solely to enforce speed limits on our roads and to help the state spend money. They do nothing against crime and as a result paramilitarys and gangs find Ireland the land of opportunity. Love/Hate on RTÉ is their most successful drama ever however ever single thing in it is true and is a fact of life in our cities.

Prehaps you could have seen a list of countries with the highest murder rates, illustrated with a national flag, seen the Cóte d'Ivorie flag, and got it the wrong way round.

That's the only explanation I can come up with for that baffling notion you have that Ireland is up there with the likes of El Salvador, Hondouras, Mexico, Jamica and South Africa as a murder capital of the world.

Ireland 3rd highest homicide rate

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