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A funny little anecdote - I think!!

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    #32
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,646 ✭✭✭54and56


    looksee wrote: »
    Of course the child could be missing out a vital bit of information such as 'I was sitting there with a big cheeky grin on my face and had up till then been messing and talking to my friend' but we are never likely to know that. We can only discuss the information we have.

    Which is absolutely entirely possible!! Teachers are human and make mistakes. They also have to be allowed to make some mistakes without having every single one made into a big drama. We all make mistakes in work and most of the time our employers/colleagues/customers understand and move on quickly. What really matters is we learn something from each mistake.

    It's entirely possible my son was acting as you outlined i.e. chatting/messing with his friends which the teacher didn't punish but when he gave the answer he did it may have just been the straw (incorrectly or not) which triggered him to remove my son from the class. I don't think that's what happened as my son have been getting good reports from his form teacher and other teachers ref his behaviour but never say never.

    I'm not at all worried about the admonishment. As I said earlier, even if he didn't actually deserve any punishment this time he probably got away with other stuff he should have been punished for in this or other classes so he has to just suck it up and he knows that.

    My only real concern is that the teacher gave the class the impression (which perhaps he didn't mean to give) that the first thing you do if someone is seriously ill or injured is pray and then seek medical attention!! That's the bit that's actually concerning.


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    #33
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,646 ✭✭✭54and56


    Tasden wrote: »
    Would you not think though that it being a religion lesson, it was sort of implied what the teacher was getting at. Context is everything and even if it wasn't said explicitly,i think it may have been plainly obvious what the context was and that is why the teacher was annoyed at his answer.

    Maybe- I dunno I wasn't there :pac:

    Possibly but why leave something to inference or implication when it's so easy to clarify when asking the question? In a class of 34 junior cert student if you leave a question open to interpretation you can't expect all 34 to interpret it the way you assume it will be interpreted.


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    #34
    JamBur
    Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭JamBur


    It's at times like this that I wish the site had a dislike button...
    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Being the mod of T&L I know often enough that the exact words/phrases could be not exactly what is relayed back to the parent.... and then relayed to others online. Do we know exactly what the teacher asked (verbatim).

    e.g. are you asserting that the teacher was actually implying that prayer is the first port of call for the sick or injured, and then instigate medical treatment after?

    Similarly, are you saying that if someone is already in hospital or sick in a different location that you should "bring him to hospital or call a Doctor".
    Is this the 'correct' answer?

    That is my interpretation obviously of what the teacher meant (that you should pray after exhausting medical options), as I think the likelihood of any teacher advocating prayer over immediate medical attention is very very low. Advocating that position is on 'nut job' level, and I would also reason that any teacher (even the religious ones!) on that level of thinking has 'track record' in other nuttiness, which I think the OP would have also relayed to us.




    Quite the opposite, actually I have taken the parent/pupils side of things in the T&L forum if I saw fit, or if it were a case of not getting the full story (Has the OP asked the teacher exactly what was said in class either? Did the teacher actually use the word "correct"?).



    Maybe the son didn't phrase the answer correctly either! Who knows what way the question was actually phrased (verbatim I mean), either way, I think the last paragraph shows that you do not genuinely believe that the teacher was advocating prayer over immediate medical attention... and thus it would be incorrect to suggest that anyone "bring him to hospital or call a Doctor" when it is being implied that they are already in hospital or have been to a doctor. If the son or the dad didn't pick up on this implication then fair enough.

    As the OP said I probably should on a point of principal but my son needs support from his teachers to maximise his potential so I want to retain their goodwill not pi$$ them off. My experience is teachers circle the wagons when one of them is challenged so I don't need that grief for my son.

    Equally fair to say that teachers can be 'challenged' with back chat and smart ar5ed answers too.

    But yes, if i find a student giving a bit of lip to get a few laughs I do suss it out with other teachers (or form tutor) to see if they are acting out for a reason. Sometimes humour can be used as a mask for struggling with learning so call it 'circling the wagons' but also consider it could be called 'taking an interest'.
    But who knows, yes I'll freely admit that teachers take exception to their colleagues being spoken to in certain ways and there can be unfair retribution.

    Hence why I might suggest that the conversation between father and son might be a little bit less 'back slapping' and a bit more discussion around 'picking your battles' and 'how to pick them'. And sure there are 'a-hole' teachers (same as any other job with a-holes in it) so I'd be especially wary if the religion teacher also has a second subject and they cross paths again. But really, in the heel of the hunt the teacher only gave a stern dressing down outside the class away from his peers, there wasn't any detention or any other 'punishment' given.

    BTW I agree, keep indoctrination out of schools.
    and, it's great that a teenager is talking to their dad about stuff that happens in school.. and he knows his own mind.


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    #35
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Possibly but why leave something to inference or implication when it's so easy to clarify when asking the question? In a class of 34 junior cert student if you leave a question open to interpretation you can't expect all 34 to interpret it the way you assume it will be interpreted.

    But you don't know the content that came before that question. They could have been talking about feeling helpless in situations and praying. Or whatever other example you can think of, where the context of the question would then be crystal clear without being explicit. In a situation like that you can expect 34 junior cert students to interpret it the correct way, unless one is being a bit of a smart arse/joker about it. (Not saying he was btw but it would explain his reaction)


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    #36
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    My son said "bring him to hospital or call a Doctor" which (unbelievably) resulted in my son being ejected from the class and whilst outside being given a stern dressing down by the teacher for being a smart ar$e.

    This was done because the teacher was embarrassed. Being removed and getting a dressing down by a teacher in the corridor can be quiet traumatic for a young child.


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    #37
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    jimd2 wrote: »
    I think you should bring it up with the principal.
    Bit too serious, given the laughter that ensued.
    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Thanks for the answers all, its been a good sanity check. I wasn't sure whether I should make an issue of it or not with the school principal but given my son totally sees how ridiculous the teacher behaved I'll let it pass as my intervention would probably only backfire on my son in some other way.
    I think you should hop it off the teacher at the next P/T meetings, in the nicest possible way, ie. roar laughing at your son's description of what transpired and in a sympathetic kind of way, mention that your son's answer of "call the doctor" was right, wasn't it, but it wasn't quite what *teacher* was looking for eh? Give the teacher just enough rope to dangle him/herself on, just for the craic. I doubt it'll backfire on your son - more, it will indicate to said teacher that very little gets past you and you're no push-over.


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    #38
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,026 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Yes kids being smart arsses to get a laugh in class still goes on. Although I'm not too sure if it's common for parents to pat them on the back for it at home.

    Only a very insecure adult could interpret a correct answer to their question as "being a smart ass".

    And only a damn fool would be asking such a question expecting the answer "prayers" in the first place.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #39
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,646 ✭✭✭54and56


    Tasden wrote: »
    But you don't know the content that came before that question. They could have been talking about feeling helpless in situations and praying. Or whatever other example you can think of, where the context of the question would then be crystal clear without being explicit. In a situation like that you can expect 34 junior cert students to interpret it the correct way, unless one is being a bit of a smart arse/joker about it. (Not saying he was btw but it would explain his reaction)

    Good point. I don't think my young lad deliberately misunderstood the question but I guess its possible he missed (through his own fault i.e. not paying attention) some lead up context which would have made the actual question more obvious if that's what the teacher meant.


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    #40
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,646 ✭✭✭54and56


    py2006 wrote: »
    This was done because the teacher was embarrassed. Being removed and getting a dressing down by a teacher in the corridor can be quiet traumatic for a young child.
    Thankfully it wasn't.


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    #41
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,646 ✭✭✭54and56


    Shrap wrote: »
    Bit too serious, given the laughter that ensued.


    I think you should hop it off the teacher at the next P/T meetings, in the nicest possible way, ie. roar laughing at your son's description of what transpired and in a sympathetic kind of way, mention that your son's answer of "call the doctor" was right, wasn't it, but it wasn't quite what *teacher* was looking for eh? Give the teacher just enough rope to dangle him/herself on, just for the craic. I doubt it'll backfire on your son - more, it will indicate to said teacher that very little gets past you and you're no push-over.

    Tempting but I wouldn't like to ambush a teacher like that. It's not a big deal. If it was I'd be tackling him myself tomorrow morning!!


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    #42
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Thankfully it wasn't.

    Smarter kid than I was at that age. I was taken out and addressed by teachers but at the time I was intimidated and scared. In hindsight I was right.


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    #43
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Being the mod of T&L I know often enough that the exact words/phrases could be not exactly what is relayed back to the parent.... and then relayed to others online. Do we know exactly what the teacher asked (verbatim)....
    Equally fair to say that teachers can be 'challenged' with back chat and smart ar5ed answers too.
    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    It seems to me that one of three things could be happening:-

    1. The Teacher asked a poorly constructed question which he thought implied the seriously ill person was already in hospital but as there was no mention of same my son answered the question as it was actually phrased and was incorrectly removed from the class and admonished for being a smart ar$e.

    2. The Teacher didn't imply the seriously ill person was already in hospital and is actually advocating that before medical help is sought some time should be spent having a quick chat on the divine intervention hotline to God.

    3. My son is a total liar.

    I'm hoping (and expect) that #1 is the most likely!!
    Something vaguely similar happened with my kid recently (of around the same age) which resulted in the teacher phoning OH. Then later on at home, hearing about it from his perspective, it seemed he'd done nothing wrong. So before going to the principal with a complaint we suggested he approach the teacher the next day and ask them why exactly she phoned the parents. Which he did, but unknown to either us or the teacher, he recorded the conversation with his iphone. As it happened, when we listened to it the teacher responded well and backtracked a little, as did he, and both finished up happy with the conversation. As parents we were glad to listen to this recording of the matter being resolved.
    So, basically I would recommend this method; your son goes in and asks the teacher for a moment to discuss the incident, while recording it clandestinely. Obviously the teacher is at a slight disadvantage being unaware of the recording, but on the other hand they are also in a situation of unequal power. If they are not abusing their power, they have nothing to worry about. If the whole thing turns out to be a misunderstanding, they will resolve it between themselves. Either way, you get to hear whether it is a really just a smart-ass thing, or a genuine issue.

    This is only going to work with older kids who can express themselves properly. And yes, I know teachers are going to say its a bad idea, but I disagree. Without being sexist about it, I think some of the younger female teachers can become a bit intimidated at times by the "slagging banter" of teenage boys amongst themselves, and may sometimes use their authority to randomly single out one of them and clamp down on them. Unfortunately this has the opposite effect to the desired effect; it lowers the kids respect for the teacher, instead of increasing it.
    Sometimes lads are simply being lads; they can't help being what they are, but they mean no harm.

    In our case comparing the teachers phone call to OH and the iphone recording, I'd say the very minor incident did not justify phoning the parents, and the teacher was just having a bad day.


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    #44
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,111 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    recedite wrote: »
    Something vaguely similar happened with my kid recently (of around the same age) which resulted in the teacher phoning OH. Then later on at home, hearing about it from his perspective, it seemed he'd done nothing wrong. So before going to the principal with a complaint we suggested he approach the teacher the next day and ask them why exactly she phoned the parents. Which he did, but unknown to either us or the teacher, he recorded the conversation with his iphone. As it happened, when we listened to it the teacher responded well and backtracked a little, as did he, and both finished up happy with the conversation. As parents we were glad to listen to this recording of the matter being resolved.
    So, basically I would recommend this method; your son goes in and asks the teacher for a moment to discuss the incident, while recording it clandestinely. Obviously the teacher is at a slight disadvantage being unaware of the recording, but on the other hand they are also in a situation of unequal power. If they are not abusing their power, they have nothing to worry about. If the whole thing turns out to be a misunderstanding, they will resolve it between themselves. Either way, you get to hear whether it is a really just a smart-ass thing, or a genuine issue.
    .

    Nooooo...that really is not a good idea. Could get him (and possibly you) into all sorts of hot water.


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    #45
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    recedite wrote: »
    . Which he did, but unknown to either us or the teacher, he recorded the conversation with his iphone.

    That sounds well dodgy to me.


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    #46
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    Tempting but I wouldn't like to ambush a teacher like that. It's not a big deal. If it was I'd be tackling him myself tomorrow morning!!

    Always good to have the "incident" in the back of your mind though. Eldest had a *ahem* disagreement with a teacher a few years back - he had apologised on reflection and told me all about it later (it had been a fine line between him standing up for himself and being "cheeky"). 6 months down the road, teacher hopped it off me at a P/T meeting by saying (not once, but three times!) "I don't want to go into it, but there was one incident...", waiting for me to take the bait. I didn't.


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    #47
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,646 ✭✭✭54and56


    looksee wrote: »
    Nooooo...that really is not a good idea. Could get him (and possibly you) into all sorts of hot water.

    I totally agree. No good can come of such behaviour. There would have to be some extreme abuse going on before I'd ever condone such action.


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    #48
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    [...] recording it clandestinely [...]
    While I'm not sure that the legality of recording a conversation has been specifically tested in an Irish court, I am fairly sure that nobody here would like to be the first person to find out whether or not it is legal either. I'd recommend strong caution, probably involving contact with a solicitor, before attempting anything as risky as that.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/oliver-connolly-is-wrong-sgt-mccabe-broke-no-laws-with-his-secret-recording-30073914.html


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    #49
    54and56
    Registered Users Posts: 7,646 ✭✭✭54and56


    robindch wrote: »
    While I'm not sure that the legality of recording a conversation has been specifically tested in an Irish court, I am fairly sure that nobody here would like to be the first person to find out whether or not it is legal either. I'd recommend strong caution, probably involving contact with a solicitor, before attempting anything as risky as that.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/oliver-connolly-is-wrong-sgt-mccabe-broke-no-laws-with-his-secret-recording-30073914.html

    As I stated above I wouldn't advocate recording a conversation with a teacher, I don't think it is appropriate or necessary.

    There isn't however any bar on such activity whether clandestine or not. The basic rule is you are allowed to record your own conversations regardless of whether the other party is aware of the recording or not. What you are not allowed to do is record conversations which you are not party to e.g. covertly record the teacher and principal discussing the issue privately in the principals office by secreting a phone or other recording device there.


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    #50
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Je_suis_Jean wrote: »
    As I stated above I wouldn't advocate recording a conversation with a teacher, I don't think it is appropriate or necessary.
    I wouldn't have advocated it either, but being presented with the recording I found it enlightening. Don't knock it till you try it ;)
    Anyway it was a slightly different situation, in that if there is the possibility of some disciplinary action being imposed, either at school or at home, parents should access as much info as is available, in order to assess the situation as fairly as possible.


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    #51
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Tasden wrote: »
    Would you not think though that it being a religion lesson, it was sort of implied what the teacher was getting at. Context is everything and even if it wasn't said explicitly,i think it may have been plainly obvious what the context was and that is why the teacher was annoyed at his answer.

    Maybe- I dunno I wasn't there :pac:

    The context: that religion trumps common sense? That would be a religious matter, Ted.


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