Why are we all becoming socialists now?

af_thefragile · 10-03-2012 11:59pm #1

Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

The King of Moo · 11-03-2012 12:00am

Who is John Galt? This guy is.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2012 12:01am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

How else would you suggest the government obtains money?

Turtyturd · 11-03-2012 12:01am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

Wouldn't people benefit from it if it was a socialist state?

Chuck Stone · 11-03-2012 12:02am

Tax cows gotta get milked.

benway · 11-03-2012 12:03am

Because austerity isn't working.

Because the rich have far too great a share of the nation's resources hoarded away.

Because the only way to set in train a meaningful recovery is to unlock those resources and put them to work, for all of our benefits.

Because its a more rational, fairer way of organising society.

Because neoliberal, free market capitalism has failed.

Socialism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive, btw. While I'm at it, neoliberal capitalism doesn't seem to be much compatible with democracy either - just look at Greece and Italy.

Chuck Stone · 11-03-2012 12:08am

socialism

A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

You're talking about tax policy rather than socialism I'd say.

DB21 · 11-03-2012 12:10am

Notably though, the last time the world was in a collective economic hell, socialism became very popular in certain countries.

Captain Darling · 11-03-2012 12:12am

benway wrote: »

Because austerity isn't working.

Because the rich have far too great a share of the nation's resources hoarded away.

Because the only way to set in train a meaningful recovery is to unlock those resources and put them to work, for all of our benefits.

Because its a more rational, fairer way of organising society.

Because neoliberal, free market capitalism has failed.

Socialism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive, btw. While I'm at it, neoliberal capitalism doesn't seem to be much compatible with democracy either - just look at Greece and Italy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qLPdI7bZnI

Chevolution · 11-03-2012 12:13am

Pretty sure that socialism is against taxing the people on everything such as their own house.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2012 12:14am

Coming back any time soon, OP?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 11-03-2012 12:15am

only because people in socialist countries are too poor to own houses worth taxing

micropig · 11-03-2012 12:15am

Not sure but a few quotes to ponder

I am convinced that the path to a new, better and possible world is not capitalism, the path is socialism.
Hugo Chavez

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/socialism.html#ixzz1ol55MWKr

Democracy is the road to socialism.Karl Marx

Capitalism is war; socialism is peace.Karl Liebknecht

All socialism involves slavery. Herbert Spencer

Capitalism is war; socialism is peace.Karl Liebknecht

If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years.
Vladimir Lenin

Marriage is socialism among two people. Barbara Ehrenreich

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 12:15am

But history has showed us that socialism doesn't work either and in many ways is worse than capitalism. Look what happened to Soviet Russia.

The richest in the nation don't get affected anyway because they have all of their property invested in tax havens.

Its only the middle class and working class who get affected by this as more businesses close down or scale down and make people redundant increasing the rate of unemployment because no one can afford anything anymore as everything is freaking expensive due to taxes.

What we need to drive back the country is to go in the opposite direction towards a lower taxed free market economy where entrepreneurs can have the opportunity of setting up businesses that can then create the jobs people need without them being discouraged or stressed by increasing taxes.

The government cannot run anything properly anyway. The nation could benefit from some privatisation.

Chevolution · 11-03-2012 12:17am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But history has showed us that socialism doesn't work either and in many ways is worse than capitalism. Look what happened to Soviet Russia.

The richest in the nation don't get affected anyway because they have all of their property invested in tax havens.

Its only the middle class and working class who get affected by this as more businesses close down or scale down and make people redundant increasing the rate of unemployment because no one can afford anything anymore as everything is freaking expensive due to taxes.

What we need to drive back the country is to go in the opposite direction towards a lower taxed free market economy where entrepreneurs can have the opportunity of setting up businesses that can then create the jobs people need without them being discouraged or stressed by increasing taxes.

The government cannot run anything properly anyway. The nation could benefit from some privatisation.

Didn't socialism work in Cuba pretty well?

benway · 11-03-2012 12:19am

micropig wrote: »

All socialism involves slavery. Herbert Spencer

Herbert Spencer is best known an advocate of social Darwinism, which basically involved letting the poor starve and die, sterilising the unworthy, etc. A total psycho, essentially. Just sayin'.

af_thefragile wrote: »

The government cannot run anything properly anyway. The nation could benefit from some privatisation.

Proof of that? Or are you just parroting an ideological screed?

Now that I recall, Anglo did a swell job in the banking market ... private enterprise is so sweet. And didn't the British railways run so smoothly after privatisation?

micropig · 11-03-2012 12:22am

I hear your a socialist now father.....:D

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 12:25am

Chuck Stone wrote: »

socialism

A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

You're talking about tax policy rather than socialism I'd say.

But this tax policy will eventually lead the country into becoming a socialist state. When you tax the middle class out of existence then you end up in a socialist society which is run by the bureaucrats and the proletariat working class who work their assess off to sustain an economy which is constantly being leached from them by the bureaucrats.

In in the case of Ireland, you will eventually have a population working hard in low income jobs paying off most of their income as taxes while the economy is leached by corrupt politicians and the overlords in EU.

KeithAFC · 11-03-2012 12:30am

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." Winston Churchill

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2012 12:34am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But history has showed us that socialism doesn't work either and in many ways is worse than capitalism. Look what happened to Soviet Russia.

The richest in the nation don't get affected anyway because they have all of their property invested in tax havens.

Its only the middle class and working class who get affected by this as more businesses close down or scale down and make people redundant increasing the rate of unemployment because no one can afford anything anymore as everything is freaking expensive due to taxes.

What we need to drive back the country is to go in the opposite direction towards a lower taxed free market economy where entrepreneurs can have the opportunity of setting up businesses that can then create the jobs people need without them being discouraged or stressed by increasing taxes.

The government cannot run anything properly anyway. The nation could benefit from some privatisation.

In other words, let the rich abuse the**** out of people and run the country into the groung AGAIN??? Did you notread the replies to your first post?

benway · 11-03-2012 12:35am

KeithAFC wrote: »

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." Winston Churchill

That's well for him to say, the accident of birth gave him more than his share of blessings, alright. He was the grandson of the Duke of Marlborough brought up in the Vice Regal lodge in Dublin's fair city, when most of the country really didn't have a pot to p!ss in. Don't think a slightly bigger share of "misery" in his early life would have hurt him too much.

losthorizon · 11-03-2012 12:38am

Ireland is the most right wing country in Europe! We have never ever voted in a left wing government. A little house tax sets people off yet if it was a tiny weeny increase in PAYE no one would notice.

On the other hand we love our subsidies - we are a strange country when it comes down to it raised on the mantra of FF and to a lesser extent PD/SS policies.

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 12:42am

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In other words, let the rich abuse the**** out of people and run the country into the groung AGAIN??? Did you notread the replies to your first post?

But it wasn't the rich who did that. It was a handful of bankers who thought they could make money from giving out loans which didn't exist in the first place.

And the irony is these bankers are still living their comfortable lives while the honest people who have worked hard to become successful at whatever they do and make a decent living need to suffer because of the consequences of what these handful of bankers have done.

Why is it that when you pay attention is school, do well in your leaving cert, spend 3-5 (and sometimes more) years in university working your ass off to get a decent degree so you can be well educated and qualified to get a good job and make a good living, that you should still live your life at the same standard as the person who paid no attention in school and because of that is jobless and lives on the dole? Why shouldn't you be rewarded for working hard to attain the qualification that allows you to live a comfortable life?

KeithAFC · 11-03-2012 12:44am

losthorizon wrote: »

Ireland is the most right wing country in Europe! We have never ever voted in a left wing government. A little house tax sets people off yet if it was a tiny weeny increase in PAYE no one would notice.

On the other hand we love our subsidies - we are a strange country when it comes down to it raised on the mantra of FF and to a lesser extent PD/SS policies.

The Irish Republic is not right wing. Voting in a right wing party doesn't mean you are right wing.

benway · 11-03-2012 12:57am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why shouldn't you be rewarded for working hard to attain the qualification that allows you to live a comfortable life?

Nobody's denying people who work hard the right to a comfortable life. But the top 10% get 25% of the disposable income in this country. The cumulative effect of this has been that 1% of the population holds 20% of the nation's wealth. That's a bit beyond comfortable.

Meanwhile 17% of children are at risk of poverty, or brought up in poverty.

It's getting to the point where the wealthy need to make the choice between letting some of these resources go in order to give the majority of the population have a better life, or hide out in their gated communities with armed guards, as the rest of the country falls into penury. Won't be much of a life for anyone if they're allowed to follow the latter course.

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 1:09am

benway wrote: »

Nobody's denying people who work hard the right to a comfortable life. But the top 10% get 25% of the disposable income in this country. The cumulative effect of this has been that 1% of the population holds 20% of the nation's wealth. That's a bit beyond comfortable.

Meanwhile 17% of children are at risk of poverty, or brought up in poverty.

It's getting to the point where the wealthy need to make the choice between letting some of these resources go in order to give the majority of the population have a better life, or hide out in their gated communities with armed guards, as the rest of the country falls into penury. Won't be much of a life for anyone if they're allowed to follow the latter course.

That's not going to happen though. The taxes hit the middle class the hardest who are the ones who have worked hard throughout their lives to strive to live a comfortable life.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the bankers and the crooks who got the country into this mess are still living their comfortable lives. Why hasn't any banker been sent to prison for committing fraud (which is why they were committing)?? Why is Bertie Ahern and other corrupt politicians like him still roaming around freely?

The wealthiest 1% never pay the taxes anyway. They spend their lives abroad in tax havens hence the idea that increasing the taxes will offset the wealth from the wealthiest 1% to the rest 99% is a myth.

The rest 99% need education and jobs. If they don't find it in this country, they'll emigrate to another country which will only end up hurting the nation's economy more as well educated people leave the country to work elsewhere. The only ones left will be the ones who can't get a decent job elsewhere and will need to go on the dole which in turn puts further stress on the economy. To balance this government raises taxes further which further reduces public spending causing more business to shut down or leave Ireland to set up business elsewhere reducing the number of jobs further and the spiral continues.

Bottom line is simply increasing the taxes will not fix the economy!

benway · 11-03-2012 1:13am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Bottom line is simply increasing the taxes will not fix the economy!

Wealth tax. Use it or lose it. That could easily fix the economy, within a relatively short space of time. Would require a watertight system to prevent capital flight, and more importantly the political will to implement it. Not too likely under the blueshirts ... or b$stardin' Labour, for that matter.

11-03-2012 1:16am

benway wrote: »

Because neoliberal, free market capitalism has failed.

socialising private debt that was cheered on by the state means free market capitalism has failed?

okay sure

pache · 11-03-2012 1:17am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But this tax policy will eventually lead the country into becoming a socialist state. When you tax the middle class out of existence then you end up in a socialist society which is run by the bureaucrats and the proletariat working class who work their assess off to sustain an economy which is constantly being leached from them by the bureaucrats.

In in the case of Ireland, you will eventually have a population working hard in low income jobs paying off most of their income as taxes while the economy is leached by corrupt politicians and the overlords in EU.

Fair enuf i dint read all posts but your not far rong threir

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2012 1:17am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But it wasn't the rich who did that. It was a handful of bankers who thought they could make money from giving out loans which didn't exist in the first place.

Well it wasn't the poor. Who work just as bloody hard to put food on the fmaily table, I might add.

And the irony is these bankers are still living their comfortable lives while the honest people who have worked hard to become successful at whatever they do and make a decent living need to suffer because of the consequences of what these handful of bankers have done.

I agree, but that's not the issue you raised.

Why is it that when you pay attention is school, do well in your leaving cert, spend 3-5 (and sometimes more) years in university working your ass off to get a decent degree so you can be well educated and qualified to get a good job and make a good living, that you should still live your life at the same standard as the person who paid no attention in school and because of that is jobless and lives on the dole? Why shouldn't you be rewarded for working hard to attain the qualification that allows you to live a comfortable life?

In what way are they living the same lifestyle as someone who didn't? Generally speaking, people in professions are earning more money net and are leading more comfortable lives. Thus, your loaded question is inaccurate.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Bottom line is simply increasing the taxes will not fix the economy!

Then why is it that it works in Scndanavia?

Which brings me back to the question I raised very early on: how do you propose the government raises funds?

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 1:18am

benway wrote: »

Wealth tax. Use it or lose it. That could easily fix the economy, within a relatively short space of time. Would require a watertight system to prevent capital flight, and more importantly the political will to implement it. Not too likely under the blueshirts ... or b$stardin' Labour, for that matter.

It probably won't work either. If I was a greedy rich million/billionaire and such a tax was introduced, I'll pack all my bags and wealth and move over to Dubai or some other tax haven like that.

The only way you can put use of the wealth of these people is to get them to invest their wealth back into the country creating industries and jobs. And this will not happen if you tax the crap out of anyone who decides to set up a private industry in this country.

dotsman · 11-03-2012 1:22am

losthorizon wrote: »

Ireland is the most right wing country in Europe! We have never ever voted in a left wing government. A little house tax sets people off yet if it was a tiny weeny increase in PAYE no one would notice.

On the other hand we love our subsidies - we are a strange country when it comes down to it raised on the mantra of FF and to a lesser extent PD/SS policies.

Are you completely nuts? Ireland doesn't have any right wing parties, and never has. Ireland has only ever done centre to centre-left. Irish society/government is very much on the left hand side of things in most regards.

TheBegotten · 11-03-2012 1:24am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But it wasn't the rich who did that. It was a handful of bankers who thought they could make money from giving out loans which didn't exist in the first place.

What a sterling example of an oxymoron! Besides, FF were Ireland's closest equivalent to capitalism, look where they got us. Also, socialism isn't communism socialism is the theory, communism the product it degrades to.

benway · 11-03-2012 1:27am

bluewolf wrote: »

socialising private debt that was cheered on by the state means free market capitalism has failed?

The neoliberal model collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions - are you saying that deregulation, free movement of capital and all those other lovely articles and verses of the free market bible didn't lead to the crash, as a logical consequence? It's only massive state intervention that's kept it afloat.

Neoliberalism, free market fundamentalism, or whatever you want to call it, is equally unworkable to communism or socialism in their pure forms. The markets, competition and individual choice have their place, but so does a duty to the greater whole, including redistribution of wealth. I'm sure that even saying that much makes me a raging pinko in some eyes, but there it is.

What worries me is the amount of people who think that the solution to a failure of neoliberalism is ... more neoliberalism. A dose of privatisation would do us the world of good, I'm sure. Keep a fundamentally unsound system of social organisation lurching forward ... until the next crash.

ejmaztec · 11-03-2012 1:27am

Didn't the Catholic church nip socialism in the bud way back, by putting the fear of god into people?

zenno · 11-03-2012 1:29am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation.

It is because of these people that we can't. :pac::pac::pac:

Tiddlypeeps · 11-03-2012 1:30am

Tax in this country is actually fairly low. We're better off than most other European countries http://www.worldwide-tax.com/

VAT is a bit above average, but income tax is pretty low. Our corporation tax is very low and makes us a very attractive place to be for businesses, so saying that taxes are forcing businesses out is a load of BS.

People complain if hospitals are closed and if schools are understaffed, yet the slightest mention of raising taxes and people are up in arms. It's impossible to have good public services and low taxes.

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 1:36am

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Well it wasn't the poor. Who work just as bloody hard to put food on the fmaily table, I might add.

I agree, but that's not the issue you raised.

In what way are they living the same lifestyle as someone who didn't? Generally speaking, people in professions are earning more money net and are leading more comfortable lives. Thus, your loaded question is inaccurate.

Then why is it that it works in Scndanavia?

Which brings me back to the question I raised very early on: how do you propose the government raises funds?

The government doesn't need funds if private industries can do the jobs better than the government can.

The problem with Ireland is that there is no proper industrial sector to sustain the economy here and no one is willing to set one up either because of the high taxes. Hence just increasing taxes will not fix the economy.

Increasing taxes is only going to hurt the people who have worked hard to try to lead a decent life. If you keep increasing taxes leading to lower incomes and higher cost of living, no wonder so many young educated people want to emigrate to other countries where their education and qualification will be valued more and they can live a more comfortable life.

Socialism doesn't work because we humans will always seek to live the more comfortable life. In Scandinavia they have managed to maintain high incomes and a high standard of living along with a high taxed society. There are many reason for this. In Norway's case, it is not a part of the EU and it has plenty of natural resources which clearly helps its economy.

This won't work in Ireland because in Ireland even if we have any natural resources, we make very poor use of it. The government is extremely inefficient in the way it manages its resources. Also there is a lot of corruption in the government here too.

Hence if I can find another place in the world where I can live more comfortably in the short and the long run, then that's where I'll strive to go to.

Converting a country into a gloomy socialist state where where we all have to give away most of our earnings as taxes so that the inefficient government and the less fortunate can to function while I to sacrifice my comforts which I have worked so hard to achieve, in an idealistic world this may work. In the real world people are selfish and I care more about my comforts than my fellows.

Harry Angstrom · 11-03-2012 1:39am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

The socialism of which you speak is mostly being availed of by our bankrupt property developers who are now being cosseted and shielded by the State entity known as NAMA. Not only are these capitalist speculators being shielded from the harsh reality of pure capitalism, but they are also drawing a wage from the Irish taxpayers, some of them claiming as much as €200,000 per anum. :mad:

Che Guevara would be spinning in his grave. :rolleyes:

Ambient Occlusion · 11-03-2012 1:41am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why is it that when you pay attention is school, do well in your leaving cert, spend 3-5 (and sometimes more) years in university working your ass off to get a decent degree so you can be well educated and qualified to get a good job and make a good living, that you should still live your life at the same standard as the person who paid no attention in school and because of that is jobless and lives on the dole? Why shouldn't you be rewarded for working hard to attain the qualification that allows you to live a comfortable life?

Generally more highly-qualified people are higher up on the payroll aren't they? In any case there's still crap like nepotism and partisan politics that contribute to today's issues.
That's where Meritocracy comes in. Democracy should be used as a tool to achieve the conditions in which Meritocracy can succeed and then abandoned. After this, party politics should be abolished and people should be elected into positions of power based on their own merits independently. If and when we achieve a fair education system in which all citizens have equal opportunities Meritocracy should in theory operate as a better system.
Constant scrutiny of government practise and decisions would keep them on the ball while strict rules and regulations are placed down to limit how much they can change, allowing important non-administrative aspects like culture and society to be retained.

Of course I'm not saying it'd be perfect and no one could really know how good it is until it is put into practice, but I'd say it's worth a go. I'm not claiming to be an expert but I imagine this to be an excellent system.

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 1:48am

^
Highly qualified people might be higher up on the payroll but they also pay much higher taxes than the rest of the people and it is unfair that someone who has worked hard to achieve the qualifications to work in a highly skilled job should then be punished by having to give away 40% and more (all those hidden levys) of their income as taxes.
And yes there is no denying there is significant amounts of nepotism in this country but eventually if you're crap at your job and you don't deserve to be where you are, you will be removed from your place.
You wouldn't want to be treated by a doctor who only has his job not because of his skills but because he has strong connections in the hospital board to get him the job.

Ambient Occlusion · 11-03-2012 1:52am

I agree that those that have worked for high salaries deserve to enjoy them within reason. Regardless the rich should pay higher tax rates (again, within reason) and also be obliged to cease their complaints about pay cuts that still leave them well-off.
*Ahem* Pat Kenny *Ahem*

k.p.h · 11-03-2012 1:53am

I know people say socialism has failed in the past, and I won't deny its issues but this universe is 13.75 billion years old and earth is 4.5 billions years old while the average human age is 67.2 years. How someone has the cheek to say they own anything is beyond me.

In the blink of an eye a civilization, less than that an individual.

The collective is far more important.

Tiddlypeeps · 11-03-2012 1:55am

Ambient Occlusion wrote: »

Generally more highly-qualified people are higher up on the payroll aren't they? In any case there's still crap like nepotism and partisan politics that contribute to today's issues.
That's where Meritocracy comes in. Democracy should be used as a tool to achieve the conditions in which Meritocracy can succeed and then abandoned. After this, party politics should be abolished and people should be elected into positions of power based on their own merits independently. If and when we achieve a fair education system in which all citizens have equal opportunities Meritocracy should in theory operate as a better system.
Constant scrutiny of government practise and decisions would keep them on the ball while strict rules and regulations are placed down to limit how much they can change, allowing important non-administrative aspects like culture and society to be retained.

Of course I'm not saying it'd be perfect and no one could really know how good it is until it is put into practice, but I'd say it's worth a go. I'm not claiming to be an expert but I imagine this to be an excellent system.

I find it insane that the system we have now actually allows for somebody with no accountancy qualifications or any qualifications at all for that matter to become minister for finance.

It's the main reason our government costs so much. I think each TD is allowed 3 (could be wrong on this number) full time consultants that get paid a very high wage to tell them what to do, all because they don't usually have any education relating to the area they are supposed to be looking after. Why not just hire the consultants who make all the decisions anyway and cut out the expensive middle man.

Meritocracy isn't actually a system of government, but I do think it would vastly improve how well the government works regardless of the system in place.

micropig · 11-03-2012 1:55am

k.p.h wrote: »

I know people say socialism has failed in the past, and I won't deny its issues but this universe is 13.75 billion years old and earth is 4.5 billions years old while the average human age is 67.2 years. How someone has the cheek to say they own anything is beyond me.

In the blink of an eye a civilization, less than that an individual.

The collective is far more important.

As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.
George Orwell

mawk · 11-03-2012 2:15am

Chevolution wrote: »

Didn't socialism work in Cuba pretty well?

not for meningitis it didn't

Ambient Occlusion · 11-03-2012 2:16am

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

It's the main reason our government costs so much. I think each TD is allowed 3 (could be wrong on this number) full time consultants that get paid a very high wage to tell them what to do, all because they don't usually have any education relating to the area they are supposed to be looking after. Why not just hire the consultants who make all the decisions anyway and cut out the expensive middle man.

I agree with this to an extent, but I do believe that:
(i) One person should never be given total power over anything without competent assistants.
(ii)Consultants eradicate subjectivity, prejudice and bias more effectively

ascanbe · 11-03-2012 2:29am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

Ah, the fallacy of labels..
When many people hear 'socialism' and 'tax' they automatically assume that this means that money is being appropriated through tax by the government in order to pay for infrastructural development, fund social-programs/welfare etc..
All but the most strident libertarians will agree that there has to be a certain level of this in order for a country to function; the only discussion is about what level of tax/public spending there should be.
But the rise in taxes in this country and others at the moment has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of a coming to prominence of what's normally regarded as a traditional 'socialist' agenda; you'll notice that despite these extra taxes, public spending on social-programs is being cut.
The money being raised from these taxes is going somewhere else..
The benificiaries and 'instigators' of these taxes, those with the 'ear' of the politicians, are not those that are commonly understood to benifit from 'socialsim' but are, in fact, those 'masters of the universe'/financial institutions that pose as the vanguard of 'capitalism' but are, in fact, merely leeches whose every whim is indulged by our elected officials and whose every mistake will not only be covered/'bailed-out', but will be used as an opportunity for them to appropriate even more money from the population at large.

Monty Burnz · 11-03-2012 2:35am

Chevolution wrote: »

Didn't socialism work in Cuba pretty well?

No. HTH.

Monty Burnz · 11-03-2012 2:43am

ejmaztec wrote: »

Didn't the Catholic church nip socialism in the bud way back, by putting the fear of god into people?

In some countries yes. In other countries, it didn't, but the system collapsed spectacularly on its own due to its own inherent weaknesses. Funny, I was just chatting to some Polish people about life under socialism earlier tonight. Stories of queueing for food, rationing, no personal freedom and pervasive surveillance by their own government (to protect the workers paradise :rolleyes:) at a time when capitalist countries were rolling in affluence and success.

Here follows a list of every successful socialist country in human history:

Harry Angstrom · 11-03-2012 2:54am

Don't confuse socialism with communism, lads.

Communism never works but it wouldn't do a Government any harm to incorporate a socialist bent into its policies, unless we want to end up having the same sort of stark divisions between rich and poor that we see in countries like the United States??

Why are we all becoming socialists now?

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