NON-EU SPOUSE TO JOIN EU CITIZEN In Ireland

masterboy123 · 31-07-2012 2:21pm #1

Hello All,

I am non-EU national (Indian) and my wife is EU citizen (Hungarian). We are planning to work in Ireland from next year.
I am myself a medical doctor and my wife who is EU citizen has done Masters in Tourism. We both are living in Hungary at the moment.

As far as i have heard from my friend who is working in Ireland right now, i came to know that if you are a spouse of EU national then you do not need a work permit to work in Ireland. You're treated as a EU national (except that you are not a citizen yet) and have all the EU rights. Is this true? And i just have to visit Garda (local police station) and they will tell me if I need any stamp or any other document.

Anyone who has been through the same case, can u please help us out?

Also, do we need a job offer from Ireland before going there?

Many thanks!!

FreudianSlippers · 04-08-2012 9:43am

That is partially correct. Non-Irish EU/EEA citizens can stay in Ireland with their family for a maximum of three months. After that they can remain in the country indefinitely once they can meet one of the following requirements:

The EU/EEA national must be engaged in economic activity (employed or self employed) or;
Have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they (and their family) do not become a burden on the social services of Ireland or;
The EU/EEA national is enrolled as a student or vocational trainee or;
Be a family member of a Union citizen in one of the previous categories.

The important point for you is the last one. It is likely not sufficient that you fulfil the categories if you were ever questioned on it - that is your wife must satisfy the criteria, not you.

Your wife does not need to register with anyone, nor does she need a residence card. You will, however, need to apply for a residence card and you might need an entry visa (if you have a "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" per article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC then you do not need one).
You will also have to register with An Garda Síochána and get your GNIB card.

Now all that in relation to yourself will be completely moot if you get a job as a doctor in the health service, which has its own rules for foreign doctors, see here.

masterboy123 · 28-07-2013 10:19pm

Hi,

Is it true that EU national have to get registered with Garda after 90 days of stay?

Cody Pomeray · 29-07-2013 12:34pm

The EU national? No, that requirement does not exist.

The EEA spouse only ever attends the GNIB in order to supply documentation in support of his or her partner's application regarding the rights of the family members of EU citizens.

All of the non EEA family member's rights to reside and work derive from the EEA family member, whose rights follow naturally from the EU treaties, and are not established by the GNIB. Your spouse's rights are effectively "automatic".

masterboy123 · 29-07-2013 4:32pm

Thanks Cody for the clarification.

My wife is EU national but I am not. We live in Hungary (Budapest) and I have "Residence card of a family member of Hungarian citizen"

Which kind of Irish visa do I need to apply at Irish embassy? Also, after landing in Ireland, when can I for apply for 4EUFAM card?

I am aware now that my wife doesn't need anything to travel to Ireland but I am not sure whether I need a visa or if I can apply for 4EUFAM card at Irish embassy here.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The EU national? No, that requirement does not exist.

The EEA spouse only ever attends the GNIB in order to supply documentation in support of his or her partner's application regarding the rights of the family members of EU citizens.

All of the non EEA family member's rights to reside and work derive from the EEA family member, whose rights follow naturally from the EU treaties, and are not established by the GNIB. Your spouse's rights are effectively "automatic".

Cody Pomeray · 29-07-2013 6:02pm

What the law says:

The relevant European Directive (2004/38/EC), as transposed, and Irish regulations, say that you can not be required to have any visa.

As a family member of a Union citizen exercising her EU treaty rights, you have a right to land.

All very simple! But...

In practice:

Airlines and the Irish border agency (GNIB/ INIS) have a tendency to be unaware of the law.

There is consistent 'unfamiliarity' with these provisions - whether that unfamiliarity is honest or not, it's not for me to say.

It is therefore advisable to 'play ball' and apply for a Visa even though it is not a legal requirement.

The Irish Embassy in Budapest will assist you in applying for this Visa. My understanding is that all the Irish embassies are now issuing "C Visas" for the type of visit you plan on making, but I presume the exact type of Visa is unlikely to be important.

Once in Ireland, you can attend your local GNIB (border agency), and apply for a "Stamp 4 EU Fam" Visa. This will take about 6 months to arrive, but you will be issued with a "temporary Stamp 4" visa until it arrives.

This 4EUFam/ Stamp 4 visa - in law, but not always in practice - officially validates your right to Visa free travel within the European Union.

As usual, the law is very clear in this regard. But the practical reality, as set out above, is how things operate.

masterboy123 · 29-07-2013 11:19pm

This is what bothers me right now that many officials working at the airport are not familiar with this law. I read on internet that I might need mutiple entry type "D Visa" if I plan to work in Ireland. Because otherwise I can't work in Ireland and must come back to Hungary and apply again for the specific visa which allows the person to work legally in Ireland.
I will be looking for posts for medical doctors in Ireland soon.
You mentioned I will be given "temporary Stamp 4" in Ireland. Does this temporary stamp allows you to work legally in Ireland as a doctor?

Also, what are the requirements to apply for stamp 4 EUFAM? Is it required that the accompanying EU national must be working in Ireland?

So, in short, my wife (EU national) do not need anything to go and work in Ireland. However, myself (non-EU spouse) should get a Irish visa before travelling to Ireland, in order to avoid complications later on after landing in Ireland. Am I correct? Please let me know.

Many thanks

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What the law says:

The relevant European Directive (2004/38/EC), as transposed, and Irish regulations, say that you can not be required to have any visa.

As a family member of a Union citizen exercising her EU treaty rights, you have a right to land.

All very simple! But...

In practice:

Airlines and the Irish border agency (GNIB/ INIS) have a tendency to be unaware of the law.

There is consistent 'unfamiliarity' with these provisions - whether that unfamiliarity is honest or not, it's not for me to say.

It is therefore advisable to 'play ball' and apply for a Visa even though it is not a legal requirement.

The Irish Embassy in Budapest will assist you in applying for this Visa. My understanding is that all the Irish embassies are now issuing "C Visas" for the type of visit you plan on making, but I presume the exact type of Visa is unlikely to be important.

Once in Ireland, you can attend your local GNIB (border agency), and apply for a "Stamp 4 EU Fam" Visa. This will take about 6 months to arrive, but you will be issued with a "temporary Stamp 4" visa until it arrives.

This 4EUFam/ Stamp 4 visa - in law, but not always in practice - officially validates your right to Visa free travel within the European Union.

As usual, the law is very clear in this regard. But the practical reality, as set out above, is how things operate.

Cody Pomeray · 30-07-2013 11:53am

masterboy123 wrote: »

This is what bothers me right now that many officials working at the airport are not familiar with this law. I read on internet that I might need mutiple entry type "D Visa"

I was told by an official in the DFA that this type of Visa is being minimised and the preference is for single entry. It probably won't be a very big deal for you, since you should be given the Temporary Stamp 4 soon after you arrive.

You mentioned I will be given "temporary Stamp 4" in Ireland. Does this temporary stamp allows you to work legally in Ireland as a doctor?

The law says Yes.

However, I couldn't possibly say what the national Health Service's or a particular Hospital's policy might be. Some employers might prefer you to have a longer term Visa.

There is nothing in law which prevents you from enjoying the same rights to full time employment as an Irish born Doctor. It's down to the employer.

Also, what are the requirements to apply for stamp 4 EUFAM? Is it required that the accompanying EU national must be working in Ireland?

It is not required that your wife be working in Ireland.

It is a requirement that she be exercising one of her treaty rights. So she must be (i) studying here, or (ii) in employment here, or (iii) involuntarily unemployed here, or (iv) be self-employed, or (v) be residing with sufficient personal resources.

So, in short, my wife (EU national) do not need anything to go and work in Ireland. However, myself (non-EU spouse) should get a Irish visa before travelling to Ireland, in order to avoid complications later on after landing in Ireland. Am I correct? Please let me know.

Exactly correct.

It's a pity that you need to take these un-necessary steps. If you have a level 10 (residence card) from Hungary because of your marriage, you are already entitled to work in Ireland and travel to Ireland, visa-free. However, border agencies are slow to change, and these are the hoops that they are making people jump through. best of luck.

masterboy123 · 30-07-2013 1:42pm

Many thanks Cody.

How can I check if I have level 10 (residence card) from Hungary? They issued me a pink coloured card. It says "Residence permit issued to a Family Member of Hungarian citizen" and it has validity of 5 years.

I am worried that I may not get temporary Stamp4 If my wife is unable to find work during the 90 days period. Do you think it will be a problem that she do not get work (during 90 days) and we have to leave Ireland? And if I get work and she is unemployed, then are we allowed to stay in Irelamd?

Many thanks.
have a good day

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I was told by an official in the DFA that this type of Visa is being minimised and the preference is for single entry. It probably won't be a very big deal for you, since you should be given the Temporary Stamp 4 soon after you arrive.

The law says Yes.

However, I couldn't possibly say what the national Health Service's or a particular Hospital's policy might be. Some employers might prefer you to have a longer term Visa.

There is nothing in law which prevents you from enjoying the same rights to full time employment as an Irish born Doctor. It's down to the employer.

It is not required that your wife be working in Ireland.

It is a requirement that she be exercising one of her treaty rights. So she must be (i) studying here, or (ii) in employment here, or (iii) involuntarily unemployed here, or (iv) be self-employed, or (v) be residing with sufficient personal resources.

Exactly correct.

It's a pity that you need to take these un-necessary steps. If you have a level 10 (residence card) from Hungary because of your marriage, you are already entitled to work in Ireland and travel to Ireland, visa-free. However, border agencies are slow to change, and these are the hoops that they are making people jump through. best of luck.

Cody Pomeray · 30-07-2013 3:00pm

masterboy123 wrote: »

Many thanks Cody.

How can I check if I have level 10 (residence card) from Hungary? They issued me a pink coloured card. It says "Residence permit issued to a Family Member of Hungarian citizen" and it has validity of 5 years.

Is it this document?
http://prado.consilium.europa.eu/en/4395/docHome.html

If Hungary have not issued you with that document, that may be a problem with Hungary's interpretation of 2004/38/EC. You should apply for a Visa (free of charge) at the Irish embassy.

If Hungary have issued you with that document, then you have a right to travel to Ireland without a visa. However, for the unfortunate reasons set out above, it is safest to still apply for a Visa (free of charge) from the Irish embassy.

I am worried that I may not get temporary Stamp4 If my wife is unable to find work during the 90 days period. Do you think it will be a problem that she do not get work (during 90 days) and we have to leave Ireland?

No, this won't be a problem. As long as your wife is unemployed but seeking work, she is legitimately exercising her treaty rights.

And if I get work and she is unemployed, then are we allowed to stay in Irelamd?

Yes, the same rule applies. Your wife has a very wide legal basis for remaining in Ireland. Don't stress about this.

One final tip, when you apply for the visa at the Irish embassy, remember that all that can be requested is your marriage certificate, your passports and perhaps some evidence that your wife is accompanying you.

Some embassy staff feel the need to ask for bank statements and health insurance. This should not be entertained.

masterboy123 · 30-07-2013 8:26pm

My documents looks different then the link you sent.

My card looks like this:
http://prado.consilium.europa.eu/en/5152/docHome.html

Ok i will visit the Irish embassy next month and see what is their response.
I have the documents you mentioned that the embassy might ask me.
What shall I say if they ask me for a valid Health insurance since mine is going to expire this month and I would like to buy a new insurance in Ireland now only. What would you suggest me in this case?

Thanks a lot for giving your valuable time and answering the questions.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Is it this document?
http://prado.consilium.europa.eu/en/4395/docHome.html

If Hungary have not issued you with that document, that may be a problem with Hungary's interpretation of 2004/38/EC. You should apply for a Visa (free of charge) at the Irish embassy.

If Hungary have issued you with that document, then you have a right to travel to Ireland without a visa. However, for the unfortunate reasons set out above, it is safest to still apply for a Visa (free of charge) from the Irish embassy.

No, this won't be a problem. As long as your wife is unemployed but seeking work, she is legitimately exercising her treaty rights.

Yes, the same rule applies. Your wife has a very wide legal basis for remaining in Ireland. Don't stress about this.

One final tip, when you apply for the visa at the Irish embassy, remember that all that can be requested is your marriage certificate, your passports and perhaps some evidence that your wife is accompanying you.

Some embassy staff feel the need to ask for bank statements and health insurance. This should not be entertained.

Cody Pomeray · 30-07-2013 9:38pm

masterboy123 wrote: »

My documents looks different then the link you sent.

My card looks like this:
http://prado.consilium.europa.eu/en/5152/docHome.html

Hmm, not sure why you have that. There is a difference between a residence permit and a residence card in EU immigration law. A residence permit endows the holder with lesser rights.

You still have an entitlement to travel to Ireland as the spouse of an Irish citizen, but that permit does not capture this right, since it is not a card for the purposes of Article 10 of the 2004/38/EC. While you still don't necessarily have to apply for a Visa, the fact that this card does not adequately capture your rights means that you really should apply at the Irish embassy in Budapest. Again this visa will be free and should be given priority.

Ok i will visit the Irish embassy next month and see what is their response.
I have the documents you mentioned that the embassy might ask me.
What shall I say if they ask me for a valid Health insurance since mine is going to expire this month and I would like to buy a new insurance in Ireland now only. What would you suggest me in this case?

The fact that it cannot be an automatic requirement to purchase insurance comes from European case law. If they request it, just contact your local European Commission office in Budapest. Some embassies routinely ask for this and they all know they shouldn't by now.

masterboy123 · 30-07-2013 10:47pm

Ok, I think after the 5 years period, the Hungarian immigration office will give me the residence card. But initially after marriage they are issuing this card.
Alright I will go to the Irish embassy next month and see what are their requirements.

Once again many thanks for the help and suggestions. Have a great week ahead

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Hmm, not sure why you have that. There is a difference between a residence permit and a residence card in EU immigration law. A residence permit endows the holder with lesser rights.

You still have an entitlement to travel to Ireland as the spouse of an Irish citizen, but that permit does not capture this right, since it is not a card for the purposes of Article 10 of the 2004/38/EC. While you still don't necessarily have to apply for a Visa, the fact that this card does not adequately capture your rights means that you really should apply at the Irish embassy in Budapest. Again this visa will be free and should be given priority.

The fact that it cannot be an automatic requirement to purchase insurance comes from European case law. If they request it, just contact your local European Commission office in Budapest. Some embassies routinely ask for this and they all know they shouldn't by now.

Gareth1985 · 06-09-2013 2:25am

Hello,
I am sorry to jump in the end of another thread, but it is the most relevant thread I can find.

Cody Pomeray, you seem very knowledgeable, maybe you could please help me with a few questions?

First of all some brief background though, I am a UK citizen, Married to A Russian citizen. We just got married this June.

In 1 weeks time Valeriya will be flying back to Russia as her visitor for marriage visa in the UK is about to expire. One week after that, on the 17th of September, I am moving to Cork, Ireland. I already have accommodation and work sorted for my arrival. We are not applying to live in the UK because of the £19k restriction.

Valeriya needs to go back to Russia to register our marriage and change her documents into my family name. I understand that by EU law I could just take her with me and hope that she will be allowed into the country providing we show the required evidence. Well after (maybe foolishly) reading many horror stories online about rejection at the Irish borders for people doing the same as this. So we decided a long time ago not to risk that, even though we are aware of our rights and instead for Valeriya to apply for an entry visa to come to Ireland once all of her new documents are in check.

But with the time approaching fast now, I am worrying about which visa exactly Valeriya will need to apply for to come and join me in Ireland. I am sure in the past I managed to find a specific visa type which she must apply for, but in recent time when I look at the Irish embassy website in Moscow the options do not seem to include one for "non EEU spose joining EU spouse" visa.

So my question is;
What is the process for Valeriya to apply to come and join me in Ireland, from Russia, once she has all of her documents translated, notorized, changed into my name??

I also wonder if anybody may know of somewhere in Cork that I may be able to seek advice on this matter once I have arrived?

I thought I had it all figured out, but now I am starting to panic and I would really appreciate some advice and help from anyone kind enough to show me the right direction.

Thanks for reading me dilemma,
Kind Regards,
Gareth.

ponamu · 18-09-2013 7:45pm

Masterboy I am in a very similiar situation to you please tell me how you got on. If you needed a visa or could just work with your family residence card of another country. Whether you had to prove that your spouse was there etc. thanks, any adds to this thread which be much appreciated

masterboy123 · 21-09-2013 8:07am

I am waiting for Ireland visa.
Yes, you need an entry visa. It's issued for a period of 90 days.
And then your EU spouse has to exercise his/her EU rights by working or studying in Ireland.
Then you have to apply for EUFAM card valid for 5 years.

ponamu wrote: »

Masterboy I am in a very similiar situation to you please tell me how you got on. If you needed a visa or could just work with your family residence card of another country. Whether you had to prove that your spouse was there etc. thanks, any adds to this thread which be much appreciated

momo25 · 14-10-2013 12:02am

Hello, I'm a citizen of Algeria and my wife is British, we got married a year ago, I'm currently in Algeria, We are relocating to Ireland, I have already applied for a Visa to Ireland I was wondering how long it will take to get an answer for the Visa, I heard the visa will be a priority as I am a spouse of an EU citizen.

masterboy123 · 15-10-2013 7:58pm

I got mine in about 4 weeks. I am also spouse of EU citizen. It depends on the embassy in the country you're applying in.
We came to Dublin last week.

momo25 wrote: »

Hello, I'm a citizen of Algeria and my wife is British, we got married a year ago, I'm currently in Algeria, We are relocating to Ireland, I have already applied for a Visa to Ireland I was wondering how long it will take to get an answer for the Visa, I heard the visa will be a priority as I am a spouse of an EU citizen.

momo25 · 16-10-2013 6:58pm

Thank you so much for your message, that was helpful, I was just wondering what nationality you come from and your spouse? and if you applied for your visa by post or did you go to a consulate in your country, if you have posted it, did it take you 4 weeks from the date you sent it, or longer because you had to wait for the letter to get there? thank you x

masterboy123 · 17-10-2013 10:40am

Hi,
My wife is European and i am 3rd country national.
There was no possibility to submit application by post, so we went personally there. They asked us additional documents such as bank statement, flight ticket, my wife's employment contract, ourrent renting contract, translated in english.
They were not giving us visa on time but then we showed we have purchased flight ticket already, then they issued a visa a week before our flight...Total it took 4 weeks from the day i submitted my papers.

momo25 wrote: »

Thank you so much for your message, that was helpful, I was just wondering what nationality you come from and your spouse? and if you applied for your visa by post or did you go to a consulate in your country, if you have posted it, did it take you 4 weeks from the date you sent it, or longer because you had to wait for the letter to get there? thank you x

Waitsian · 03-11-2013 3:25am

WhiteEuropean wrote: »

You are not white -- why are you in Europe? Why are you not in India ? Why do you want to colonise Ireland with non whites ?

Enjoy your short stay on Boards. :rolleyes:

Black Swan · 03-11-2013 5:05am

mod9maple wrote: »

Enjoy your short stay on Boards. :rolleyes:

MOD REMINDER:
WhiteEuropean has been banned for violating charter and boards.ie Terms of Use. It's grand that our members report such posters, but please do not make comments like this in-thread.

Callum.a192 · 12-12-2013 7:20pm

Hey quick question, I am a New Zealand citizen and so is my wife.. Although my wife has a British passport (her parents are British).. We are currently travelling through Europe and we would like to work somewhere here.. We are interested in working in Ireland or UK, but all the info I can find for me to get visas for those countries I need to apply from my country of residence (New Zealand). Germany is the only country that i can find with which I can apply for a work visa once there.. Is there any way I can get a Irish or UK visa on arrival there or apply from elsewhere in Europe as my wife is a British passport holder?
Any help with this would be greatly appreciated

masterboy123 · 13-12-2013 2:59pm

Callum,

Your case is different and to be honest i don't have any idea what to advice you.

If your UK citizen wife was working anywhere in Europre, then you could apply for Family permit (UK) or Stamp 4EUFAM (in Ireland).

Since you're citizen of New Zealand (a wealthy country), you should alone be able to get the required visa for yourself, I think!

P.S. I just checked now, you can stay in Ireland without visa for upto 90 days.

alanmoraisss · 22-04-2014 9:52am

I am Brazilian I have the Residence Permit issue to a family member of Hungarian citizen.

I am working legal in Ireland no need visa make sure when u land here u have a piece of paper with the law that showing u have the same rights as EU citizens and go in the same queue the ur wife.

masterboy123 · 23-04-2014 7:52am

Thanks,
I applied for Stamp4EUFAM in Ireland via EU1 application form.
I am waiting for 5 years permission to remain in Ireland.

alanmoraisss wrote: »

I am Brazilian I have the Residence Permit issue to a family member of Hungarian citizen.

I am working legal in Ireland no need visa make sure when u land here u have a piece of paper with the law that showing u have the same rights as EU citizens and go in the same queue the ur wife.

vjones · 03-05-2014 9:48pm

Hi,
I have a similar case and we are planning to move from Finland.
It would be great help if you can clarify few things.
What documents were requested when you applied for Irish Visa (90days stay) in Hungary, were u asked to present Employment contracts or accommodation proofs in Dublin.

About EU1 application does spouse (EU citizen) needs to be employed to get 4EU FAM stamp.
And while waiting for decision are you allowed (eligible) to apply and take employment.

Many thanks

masterboy123 · 03-05-2014 10:36pm

The irish embassy in Hungary asked for several documents such as EU spouse employment contract in Hungary, EU spouse payslips, our house rental contract, marriage certificate, etc and it took about 3-4 weeks until i got the short term C visa.

Once you're in Ireland with EU citizen, then you can apply for Stamp4EUFAM via Application Form EU1. For this, the EU citizen must be working in Ireland. You can see on the form what other documents are required.
You will be given temporary stamp4 for 6 months while the 5 years card is in process and yes you can work durind this period.

All the best

vjones wrote: »

Hi,
I have a similar case and we are planning to move from Finland.
It would be great help if you can clarify few things.
What documents were requested when you applied for Irish Visa (90days stay) in Hungary, were u asked to present Employment contracts or accommodation proofs in Dublin.

About EU1 application does spouse (EU citizen) needs to be employed to get 4EU FAM stamp.
And while waiting for decision are you allowed (eligible) to apply and take employment.

Many thanks

vjones · 08-05-2014 6:47am

thanks a lot for the information.

NON-EU SPOUSE TO JOIN EU CITIZEN In Ireland

Comments