Garage looking to replace water pump unnecessarily???

Kashkai · 28-11-2011 1:48pm #1

Our 2006 Renault Grand Scenic is due a timing belt change but the garage wants to replace the water pump as well, even though there is no problem with the existing one. Is this a scam to get more money for unnecessary work or is there a "quiet recall" on Renault water pumps where the manufacturer recommends that these be replaced but not at their expense. Therefore get the customers to fork out for this work

The cost for this work is €500 or €350 if the water pump is not changed. Any opinions?

Thanks

Owen · 28-11-2011 1:50pm

On a lot of cars it makes sense to change the pumps while you're in working on the belt. A friend's Puma last week had to get the water pump done - even though he was told to get it done when the timing belt was being done 6 months ago. His end result? Paying for extensive labour twice. If they're in there doing the belt, a 50 euro water pump with new gasket, new impellor and new pulley is well worth it.

[EDIT] Should clarift when I say 50 Euro - that's the approx price of a pump without markup or labour. I'd be haggling with them over the price of doing both.

MarkR · 28-11-2011 1:52pm

On my car, when the timing belt is changed, it is recommended to also replace the water pump. Mostly because you have to take out all the same parts at the same time. The price of the part itself isn't normally that large, but the labour, which would only have a minimal increase over just the timing belt. So two jobs for similar labour charge.

28-11-2011 1:53pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

.............. Any opinions?

Change the pump too, the old pump could well fail and might even damage the new belt in time. Not worth the saving of €150 really not to do it. €150 seems a tad high for a water pump though, main dealer I take it?

You could get it done for less.

George Dalton · 28-11-2011 2:09pm

Definitely get the water pump done. I would say about half the Renaults that I see for timing belt and water pump changes the water pump is already showing signs of leaking.

As above it should be possible to get the job done for less than €500. You just have to shop around a bit.

Kashkai · 28-11-2011 2:18pm

Thanks for the quick replies lads. Sorry I was casting aspersions on the garage but with money being so fecking tight these days, I groan at every extra expense that comes my way.

We rang 3 Renault dealers (hell of a lot fewer Renault dealers in Dublin nowadays compared to 5 years ago btw) and they all quoted around the €500 mark. I don't know if I'd trust this job to an independent in case something went wrong and the engine got damaged.

Owen · 28-11-2011 2:19pm

It's not a difficult job, just time consuming. Any independent worth his salt could do it.

George Dalton · 28-11-2011 2:29pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I don't know if I'd trust this job to an independent in case something went wrong and the engine got damaged.

I know it is slightly OT but I think that is an interesting statement. Can you elaborate on it please? Why do you trust a main dealer more than an independent?

I run an independent garage and one of the things I am trying to do is get through to people that you can get an equal (and in many cases superior) standard of service or repair from a good independent as you can from a main dealer. But there are a lot of people like yourself who have this positive perception of main dealers and negative perception of independent garages.

Nissan doctor · 28-11-2011 2:57pm

As George said, the water pumps are almost always weeping on the renaults.
It is also good practice to replace any water pump which is driven by the timing belt.

Also the view that you get some sort of superior service in a main dealer has to be getting old now...no?

You should be able to have a ful timing belt kit with water pump fitted in a reputable indy garage for €350.

Kashkai · 28-11-2011 3:35pm

From my experience, I bought a car from an independent garage on the southside of Dublin back in the late 80's that turned out to be two cars for the price of one, i.e. the back end of one car welded onto the front end of another, poorly. When I brought it to my local main Opel dealer for a service, he put it up on a ramp and shook the chassis and showed me the welds coming apart. In his opinion, one bad pothole would snap the car in two. The independent garage told me to feck off when I went back to them and it took a helpful Garda to convince him to refund my money.

I had the brakes (pads and discs) on my Peugeot 405 done by an independent garage in the early 90's. On the way home the brakes failed completely and I ended up in a ditch. I got the AA to tow it home and their mechanic said the brake line had been severed which was unusual. I told him a garage had done the brakes and he thought perhaps he had nicked the brake line with something. The Indpendent told me he didn't do it and I couldn't prove it.

Left my car in for a routine service (oil, plugs, filters) with a local garage in the mid 90's and when I went to collect it, I checked it out before I left the garage. The oil was as black as coal (not changed), the same oil filter was on it (I had marked it with a pen), the air filter wasn't touched and when I asked him to take out a spark to check it, he refused.

Thats why I don't go to independents as in two of those examples, I could have been killed by a car snapping in half and my brakes failing.

Now don't get me wrong, I've had issues with main dealers too but they have reputations to uphold, are members of SIMI, don't want to have their suppliers getting bad reports of them etc. I had a car damaged during a routine service 3 years ago when they didn't put the jacking arm under the jacking point. They just put it under the cill so when they jacked it up, the cill was crushed in. I noticed this the next weekend when I was washing it and I immediately phoned the garage. At first they said they didn't do it, and implied I had done it. So I said I was going to report this to SIMI and to Renault Ireland. I could show them the unused spare wheel (and therefore why would I have jacked up the car at all?). This brought about a change in attitude and they repaired the car while giving me a courtesy car for a few days.

There are some great independents out there I'm sure, but I just haven't had the good experiences that others may have had.

Nissan doctor · 28-11-2011 3:49pm

Times have moved on thankfully. You need to get some up to date experience IMO.

We mentioned reputable independants, they operate with exactly the same level of qualifications, level of insurance, reputation etc etc as any dealer. You will have no less comeback, warranty or back up from organisations like SIMI or the AA.

And the level of standards of reputable independants is offially recognised as european legal rulings have been made against main dealers requiring them to service cars to maintain warranties.

A bit of research goes a long way before you spend your hard earned money IMO.

mickdw · 28-11-2011 4:00pm

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Times have moved on thankfully. You need to get some up to date experience IMO.

We mentioned reputable independants, they operate with exactly the same level of qualifications, level of insurance, reputation etc etc as any dealer. You will have no less comeback, warranty or back up from organisations like SIMI or the AA.

And the level of standards of reputable independants is offially recognised as european legal rulings have been made against main dealers requiring them to service cars to maintain warranties.

A bit of research goes a long way before you spend your hard earned money IMO.

The only advantages I see with using main dealer are if you had an expensive newish car and wanted to maintain a full manufacturer service history. In addition to this, a main dealer history will certainly help when chasing goodwill claims. I don't this the ops worries are valid at all though re workmanship or comeback provided he uses a garage that are known to be competent.

turbodiesel · 28-11-2011 4:21pm

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Times have moved on thankfully. You need to get some up to date experience IMO.

We mentioned reputable independants, they operate with exactly the same level of qualifications, level of insurance, reputation etc etc as any dealer. You will have no less comeback, warranty or back up from organisations like SIMI or the AA.

And the level of standards of reputable independants is offially recognised as european legal rulings have been made against main dealers requiring them to service cars to maintain warranties.

A bit of research goes a long way before you spend your hard earned money IMO.

Assuming ProsperousDave lives in Prosperous maybe you could PM him a mechanic's contacts or you remember someone refering a mechanic in the area.....

flyingsnail · 28-11-2011 4:31pm

Sounds like you had a few bad experiences all right but once you find yourself a decent independent you wont look back. I have been using the same indi for the last 4 years and I wouldn’t hesitate to recommended him to anybody.

Nissan doctor · 28-11-2011 6:57pm

turbodiesel wrote: »

Assuming ProsperousDave lives in Prosperous maybe you could PM him a mechanic's contacts or you remember someone refering a mechanic in the area.....

I wouldn't be familiar with any mechanics/garages in Kildare I'm afraid.

FrontDoor · 28-11-2011 7:23pm

All depends really on what you get in the service from a main dealer v an independent.

I find the local main dealer for my car extremely good and thorough. By thorough I mean the locks and hinges, etc are greased, the car is washed and vacumed and the the print out at the end comes with dozens of pages of output from the computer and rolling road test, etc that they put it through, along with all the checks etc. All software updates, etc carried out and drop off and pick up service.

I have been quoted €180 for a full oil and filters service on a diesel and I think all in, that's pretty good. Maybe I am easily impressed, but I feel that is a good service.

Nissan doctor · 28-11-2011 7:30pm

FrontDoor wrote: »

All depends really on what you get in the service from a main dealer v an independent.

I find the local main dealer for my car extremely good and thorough. By thorough I mean the locks and hinges, etc are greased, the car is washed and vacumed and the the print out at the end comes with dozens of pages of output from the computer and rolling road test, etc that they put it through, along with all the checks etc. All software updates, etc carried out and drop off and pick up service.

I have been quoted €180 for a full oil and filters service on a diesel and I think all in, that's pretty good. Maybe I am easily impressed, but I feel that is a good service.

Alot of that can be cleverly designed 'perceived quality'

I heard it said once that you could just blow out the air filter and p1ss in the sump but once you get rid of a squeaky door hinge then customer will feel that they've got a great service.

Not exactly a mindset that I would go with but a very true observation of the perceptions of customers and an important lesson in how the little details can be the most important to your customer.

FrontDoor · 28-11-2011 7:37pm

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Alot of that can be cleverly designed 'perceived quality'

I heard it said once that you could just blow out the air filter and p1ss in the sump but once you get rid of a squeaky door hinge then customer will feel that they've got a great service.

Not exactly a mindset that I would go with but a very true observation of the perceptions of customers.

True.

Sure who knows at the end of the day. You pay your money and you take your chances.

I suppose you get a feel for places in any area of consumerism. As a general rule, I always like to see the owners around the place, be it restaurant, garage, shop, whatever, in working, dealing with customers etc.

By the same token, I am pretty allergic to the massive glass palace type places with sniffy sales staff, etc. I feel that kind of attitude permeates through an organisation.

I'd find it impressive that the likes of yourself and George Dalton are hanging around places like this as it shows a deep interest in cars and it doesn't seem to be just a job for ye.

Nissan doctor · 28-11-2011 8:17pm

FrontDoor wrote: »

I'd find it impressive that the likes of yourself and George Dalton are hanging around places like this as it shows a deep interest in cars and it doesn't seem to be just a job for ye.

I know, we're sad alright:P

George Dalton · 28-11-2011 8:41pm

Yeah it's not just a job, it's a form of mental illness :rolleyes:

ThisRegard · 28-11-2011 9:03pm

FrontDoor wrote: »

I suppose you get a feel for places in any area of consumerism. As a general rule, I always like to see the owners around the place, be it restaurant, garage, shop, whatever, in working, dealing with customers etc.

By the same token, I am pretty allergic to the massive glass palace type places with sniffy sales staff, etc. I feel that kind of attitude permeates through an organisation.

I got a bright and cheery hello off Bill Cullen a few months back in his big glass palace !

crosstownk · 28-11-2011 10:38pm

Replace the water pump while the timing belt is being done. If the pump fails before the next t/belt interval (and it probably will) you could end up paying big time for new valve gear.

Mycroft H · 28-11-2011 11:53pm

FrontDoor wrote: »

All depends really on what you get in the service from a main dealer v an independent.

I find the local main dealer for my car extremely good and thorough. By thorough I mean the locks and hinges, etc are greased, the car is washed and vacumed and the the print out at the end comes with dozens of pages of output from the computer and rolling road test, etc that they put it through, along with all the checks etc. All software updates, etc carried out and drop off and pick up service.

I have been quoted €180 for a full oil and filters service on a diesel and I think all in, that's pretty good. Maybe I am easily impressed, but I feel that is a good service.

Good service? I've a local citroen specialist who does my work for me. Completely independent small operation.

Full service including fully synthetic oil, filters, diagnostic check and even topping up the eloys fluid for the dpf - 85 euros.

As I collected the keys from him he says "I fixed the height adjuster on the drivers seat, simple thing to do, ohh and I fixed the numberplate lamp too, you don't want to give some guard the excuse to pull you over...."

Now that would be service that I would use again, I didn't even know the lamp was blown. I'll take my 95 euros and I'll oil the door myself sometime.....

Delancey · 29-11-2011 2:47am

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Times have moved on thankfully. You need to get some up to date experience IMO.

We mentioned reputable independants, they operate with exactly the same level of qualifications, level of insurance, reputation etc etc as any dealer. You will have no less comeback, warranty or back up from organisations like SIMI or the AA.

And the level of standards of reputable independants is offially recognised as european legal rulings have been made against main dealers requiring them to service cars to maintain warranties.

A bit of research goes a long way before you spend your hard earned money IMO.

Nissan doctor , are you saying the old bullsh1t line from main dealers that if you got an independednt to service / repair then your warranty was void no longer has any legal basis ?
I'd love to think that crap was history , nothing more than a way to scare people into toeing the party line.

CJhaughey · 29-11-2011 9:39am

Delancey wrote: »

Nissan doctor , are you saying the old bullsh1t line from main dealers that if you got an independednt to service / repair then your warranty was void no longer has any legal basis ?
I'd love to think that crap was history , nothing more than a way to scare people into toeing the party line.

Thats an EU directive that came into force a while back called Block Exemption.
They can't tie anyone to a main dealer only garage for servicing.

Nissan doctor · 29-11-2011 10:11am

Delancey wrote: »

Nissan doctor , are you saying the old bullsh1t line from main dealers that if you got an independednt to service / repair then your warranty was void no longer has any legal basis ?
I'd love to think that crap was history , nothing more than a way to scare people into toeing the party line.

Absolutely, as above its called Block exemption. This is copy and paste of the info I wrote up to display in work...I've removed the company name to keep the mods happy:)

Your Manufacturer warranty is safe with ***** **********!

In October 2003 European Union legislation, ‘Block Exemption Regulations 1400/2002’ (BER) came into force.
This ruling gave motorists more freedom in their decision as to who should repair and service their vehicles. Now any garage can be used to service your car without invalidating the manufacturer’s warranty (subject to certain conditions).
This was as a result of four specific ‘freedoms’ that were introduced, aimed at safeguarding free competition in the entire market for vehicle spare parts, service and repair.
These meant:

- parts distributors can supply parts of the appropriate quality to dealers and authorised repairers without the vehicle manufacturer / assembler using ‘dealer / repairer contracts’ or other means to prevent them
- parts manufacturers can no longer be forced by their original equipment (OE) contract to limit supply of parts to the vehicle manufacturer / assembler
- parts manufacturers can supply OE products under their own brand so motorists and repairers will not feel they have to go to a main dealer for a certain part
- anyone with a legitimate need for technical information has a right of access to it in a usable form and at a reasonable cost

Independent repairers CAN carry out normal maintenance and repair services during a vehicle’s warranty period without invalidating the warranty conditions provided that:
- the service is carried out in accordance with the manufacturer’s servicing schedules and is recorded as such
- any parts used are of ‘appropriate quality’ and are recorded as such

So ask for a quote for our manufacturer schedual specific servicing today.

So not only can independent garages service your car and maintain the manufacturer warranty but the parts don't even have to come from the dealer, high quality OE spec parts can be used.

It also means that main dealers can't be bound by the car manufacturer to use genuine parts either, something perhaps to keep in mind when you see main dealers offering services at independant garage prices.

Its yet another EU directive which hasn't really been picked up on in Ireland but it exists none the less.

101sean · 29-11-2011 1:46pm

I certainly wouldn't go near a main dealer with a Land Rover with one possible exception, service is generally hopeless and they haven't a clue when it comes to diagnostics.

We did the timing belt on my sisters 07 Renault Scenic last year, simple enough to do but could see why Renault wanted €600 to do it, you have to remove half the the RH corner of the car to get to it! We did the water pump as well, would have beeen stupid not to.

FrontDoor · 29-11-2011 2:17pm

BX 19 wrote: »

Good service? I've a local citroen specialist who does my work for me. Completely independent small operation.

Full service including fully synthetic oil, filters, diagnostic check and even topping up the eloys fluid for the dpf - 85 euros.

As I collected the keys from him he says "I fixed the height adjuster on the drivers seat, simple thing to do, ohh and I fixed the numberplate lamp too, you don't want to give some guard the excuse to pull you over...."

Now that would be service that I would use again, I didn't even know the lamp was blown. I'll take my 95 euros and I'll oil the door myself sometime.....

That's a fantastic price.

The parts alone wouldn't be a million miles off that on their own. Hard to see him have much profit out of 85 quid.

Factor in the cost of the premises, tools, diagnostic equipment, insurance, tax, etc.

Fair play to him.

As a matter of interest, what are indies charging for services on standard cars - Golfs, mondeos, etc.

Nissan doctor · 29-11-2011 3:56pm

FrontDoor wrote: »

That's a fantastic price.

The parts alone wouldn't be a million miles off that on their own. Hard to see him have much profit out of 85 quid.

Factor in the cost of the premises, tools, diagnostic equipment, insurance, tax, etc.

Fair play to him.

As a matter of interest, what are indies charging for services on standard cars - Golfs, mondeos, etc.

It depends entirely on what service they are due...

George Dalton · 29-11-2011 4:50pm

Exactly. The previous service history and mileage will determine the cost of a service.

In our place, taking a 1.9TDI Golf 5 as an example, lube service is €75, standard service €125 and major service is €195. The lube service is what people tend do on their own driveways and call a service, it is basically just an oil change and quick check over. The standard service includes a more comprehensive inspection and the major service includes a full inspection and air and cabin filters, fuel filter in a diesel and spark plugs in a petrol car. More detailed info at the link below:

http://vagdrivers.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=58258

scholar007 · 29-11-2011 4:57pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Our 2006 Renault Grand Scenic is due a timing belt change but the garage wants to replace the water pump as well, even though there is no problem with the existing one. Is this a scam to get more money for unnecessary work or is there a "quiet recall" on Renault water pumps where the manufacturer recommends that these be replaced but not at their expense. Therefore get the customers to fork out for this work

The cost for this work is €500 or €350 if the water pump is not changed. Any opinions?

Thanks

A motor dealer offering to do unnecessary work - Surely not!

I love it though whenever I leave my car or da wifes car into the main dealer (not going to be doing it anymore) - After about an hour the phone would ring and they would be offering to do brake pads or change tyres when I would know that both are fine.

Garage looking to replace water pump unnecessarily???

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