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Equality case over bus positioning at stop fails

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  • 24-01-2013 6:11pm
    #1
    Conway635
    Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭


    The High Court have ruled against a wheelchair user who sued Bus Eireann over an incident in which he said a number 8 (now 208) Cork City bus failed to address the stop correctly, thus denying him the opportunity to board via the wheelchair ramp.

    BE say due to other traffic it was not possible to reposition the bus, and that th ramp could not be safely deployed in its current position.

    Case not upheld, but only because the aggrieved party had failed to use the appeal facility of the Equality Tribunal.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/disabled-man-fails-in-case-against-bus-eireann-over-kerbside-stop-3363189.html

    I wonder how this man would get on trying to board any bus in Suffolk Street at rush-hour . .

    C635


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    #2
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    The claimant should be done for costs, this is 8 years this guy has been pushing this!

    "Mr O'Callaghan's counsel, Diarmuid P. O'Donavan, asked the judge to make no order on who should pay the legal costs or else to limit the costs.

    The judge said he would award costs against Mr O'Callaghan but said he would expect Bus Eireann to take a "practical and sensible view" in relation to pursuing him for payment    ."

    Why should the defence counsel who should have known the claimant had no case cause Bus Éireann's costs to be borne by themselves? I hope BÉ make sure their costs are paid by the defendant.


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    #3
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    Conway635 wrote: »
    The High Court have ruled against a wheelchair user who sued Bus Eireann over an incident in which he said a number 8 (now 208) Cork City bus failed to address the stop correctly, thus denying him the opportunity to board via the wheelchair ramp.

    BE say due to other traffic it was not possible to reposition the bus, and that th ramp could not be safely deployed in its current position.

    Case not upheld, but only because the aggrieved party had failed to use the appeal facility of the Equality Tribunal.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/disabled-man-fails-in-case-against-bus-eireann-over-kerbside-stop-3363189.html

    I wonder how this man would get on trying to board any bus in Suffolk Street at rush-hour . .

    C635

    You're stretching things there by saying "but only", the case wasn't heard at all so the Court never even got to think about the case the claimant had.


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    #4
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    He claims that on October 31, 2003, he suffered embarrassment, humiliation, upset and inconvenience when a Bus Eireann No. 8 bus failed, neglected or refused to pull up to a bus stop kerb

    :rolleyes:

    No, he suffered a missed bus, what a load of nonsense


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    #5
    sharpish
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭sharpish


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    :rolleyes:

    No, he suffered a missed bus, what a load of nonsense

    he didn't miss the bus he wasn't allowed board because of poor driving :eek:


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    #6
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    sharpish wrote: »
    he didn't miss the bus he wasn't allowed board because of poor driving :eek:

    All Black and White then,the Court decision is quite obviously wrong,as the Judge could'nt possible have had a better understanding of the evidence than sharpish....:o
    Bus Eireann denied the incident happened as he claimed saying the driver had already stopped the bus for another passenger. Mr O'Callaghan's location prevented the driver from using the vehicle's wheelchair ramp because it would have hung in a vertical position.

    The driver was unable to comply with Mr O'Callaghan's request that he reverse because traffic had built up behind the bus and such a manoeuvre was dangerous and in breach of traffic law.

    Although I found this bit of somewhat greater interest......
    In May 2005, an Equality Tribunal determined his complaint was inadmissible and that the file be closed.

    He did not appeal that decision but instead brought Circuit Court proceedings for alleged distress for breach of his equal status, constitutional and European Convention Rights. In this action, he also claimed there were similar incidents when he tried to board buses on four other occasions in November 2004, March 2005, and July 2005

    Cork Circuit Court, in November 2005, struck out his action saying that if he had been dissatisfied with the Equality Tribunal decision, he should have appealed the decision.

    Not for nothing is the relevant legislation known as "The Equal Status Act 2000",as this gentleman has just discovered.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #7
    sharpish
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭sharpish


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    All Black and White then,the Court decision is quite obviously wrong,as the Judge could'nt possible have had a better understanding of the evidence than sharpish....:o
    AlekSmart wrote: »

    I was posting with regard why the man took the case, not the judgement or the out come.

    This thread appears to lack empathy towards this man, who is at an obvious disadvantage trying to use public transport.


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    #8
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    sharpish wrote: »
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    All Black and White then,the Court decision is quite obviously wrong,as the Judge could'nt possible have had a better understanding of the evidence than sharpish....:o
    AlekSmart wrote: »

    I was posting with regard why the man took the case, not the judgement or the out come.

    This thread appears to lack empathy towards this man, who is at an obvious disadvantage trying to use public transport.

    Empathy is one thing,but having decided to embark upon a certain course of action,presumably with the same Legal advice available to everybody,this gentleman lost this specific case.

    I can,and do empathise with a great many of my daily groupings of passengers,some disabled,some not...however,that does not prevent me from,at times being unable to satisfy all of their requirements.

    Like much else in this world,mainstream Public Transport can only be about achieving an acceptable norm,it can never satisfy all of the individual requirements of every user.

    There are many examples of locations where Disabled persons are quite deliberately frustrated in their attempts to access Public Transport by the actions of entities other than the Transport Providers.

    If you want a textbook example,head for St Stephens Green North and have regard for the manner in which the Office of Public Works deliberately and with,I would suggest,some significant level of incompetence,frustrated all attempts to allow disabled Bus users to access St Stephens Green itself....:mad:

    Empathy is not the issue here,expectations and reality are.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #9
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    BE say due to other traffic it was not possible to reposition the bus, and that th ramp could not be safely deployed in its current position.

    ...surely traffic moves on


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    #10
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Perhaps there were vehicles (non BE or otherwise) parked at the stop with no driver blocking access.

    Without knowing the full facts it's impossible to judge.


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    #11
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    lxflyer wrote: »

    Without knowing the full facts it's impossible to judge.
    On boards.ie, it is mandatory to judge without knowing the full facts.


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    #12
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,003 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    RainyDay wrote: »
    On boards.ie, it is mandatory to judge without knowing the full facts.

    Don't forget to throw in a few stereotypes as well.


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    #13
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,729 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    AngryLips wrote: »
    ...surely traffic moves on
    lxflyer wrote: »
    Perhaps there were vehicles (non BE or otherwise) parked at the stop with no driver blocking access.

    Without knowing the full facts it's impossible to judge.

    I took from that that the bus stopped more or less in the middle of the road (I don't know the stop in question but I'm assuming there's no bus bay or the marked stop was otherwise occupied), cars built up behind it waiting for it to move on and as such the driver couldn't reverse as he'd have backed into the car behind him.


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    #14
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    AngryLips wrote: »
    ...surely traffic moves on

    It's never a good idea to reverse a large vehicle without a, trusted, spotter. With traffic and pedestrians around it's forward or wait till someone with authority/qualified comes along.


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    #15
    Conway635
    Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭Conway635


    The thing which caught my eye straight away in this story was that the location was Merchants Quay - one of the worst places in Cork to try to pull a bus into a stop as a multitude of car drivers stopping for "just a minute" to drop off or pick up people from the shopping centre or the nearby bus station tend to insert themselves into every vacant piece of kerbside, no matter if it is a bus stop, they are there for "just a minute", but the problem is there are about 60 people stopping for "just a minute" every hour.

    Consequently getting a bus properly aligned with a stop in that location is a hit or miss affair, not helped at all by Bus Eireann themselves seemingly needing to park a line of layover buses along the pavement between the bus station and Patrick Street at most hours of the day.

    Now, I can't tell you what exactly happened in this case, but I can say that if we want a wheelchair user to reliably be able to board buses at that location not only do BE need to clean up their act on parked vehicles, but there needs to be better traffic / parking enforcement too.

    The thing is, buses do not operate in isolation of their environment.

    You can't just deliver a fleet of shiny new lowfloor buses to Cork (or Dublin or anywhere) and then declare that the accessibility problem is "solved".

    You need to look at the stops, and ensure that they are not only kept clear for a bus to use them, but that there is enough space for a bus to approach at the correct angle to ensure that the door and kerb are properly aligned if the ramp needs to be used.

    This is difficult enough with a front door, but degrees harder with a centre door, and the fact that London can do it with centre door ramps shows just how much better their whole approach to the infrastructure around the bus services is.


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    #16
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    The bus stops outside connolly station used to alwayss be full of out of service bus eireann buses and the regular dublin buses were never able to pull into their stop there but I saw the other day that whole area was clear of buses and the 120 only pulled in about 3minutes before its departure time.

    I cant help thinking this case has done an awful lot for passenger safety if it is the reason that bus eireann have cleared away all the parked buses from these bus stops but it may also have been caused by reports to the nta or the gardai.

    Edit; spoke too soon about bus eireann doing something right, at half past 5 today LD219 took pride of place parked up in the middle of the bus stop area outside connolly station blocking off access for two bus eireann bus stops as well as the dublin bus stop for the 14, 15, 27 etc. Is there not a law prohibiting parking at bus stops??

    Also their previously excellent wifi in busarse keeps disconnecting every minute but at least that awful banner advert is gone and the screen renders properly.


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    #17
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Conway635 wrote: »
    The thing which caught my eye straight away in this story was that the location was Merchants Quay - one of the worst places in Cork to try to pull a bus into a stop as a multitude of car drivers stopping for "just a minute" to drop off or pick up people from the shopping centre or the nearby bus station tend to insert themselves into every vacant piece of kerbside, no matter if it is a bus stop, they are there for "just a minute", but the problem is there are about 60 people stopping for "just a minute" every hour.

    That street is a joke. Folk park up to, and in, the left turn lane for Pana. Abandoning buses doesn't help either.

    I think part of the problem is that it has been tacitly accepted as being the layby for taxis waiting to bring folk (and their shopping) home from SuperValu.

    It doesn't help that it's also a street where the clientele wouldn't have any problem with telling a Traffic Warden where to sling his hook. (They'd say the same to any bus driver asking for additional information regarding their pass).


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    #18
    gbob
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    2013-01-29%25252012.12.37.png

    I wonder how a wheelchair user would fare at this stop.. look closely, its painted into a bend. Not many buses that shape.


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    #19
    Conway635
    Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭Conway635


    gbob wrote: »

    I wonder how a wheelchair user would fare at this stop.. look closely, its painted into a bend. Not many buses that shape.

    At last - a genuine use for the bendybus . .

    C635


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    #20
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    gbob wrote: »
    2013-01-29%25252012.12.37.png

    I wonder how a wheelchair user would fare at this stop.. look closely, its painted into a bend. Not many buses that shape.

    And quite typically 3 cars parked in or encroaching on the bus stop. Typical Irish response to rules.


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