Sample planning permission application for expanding gate

MichaelR · 14-03-2015 9:42pm #1

I will need to expand the road access gate of a semi-detached house. This requires planning permission. But having a professional do the drawings costs a lot.

When doing actual building I do understand the importance of having a proper plan. But this is a simple job, knock a part of a low garden wall basically. So the drawings would be needed only for PP - and I am inclined to try and make them myself.

So is it possible to get some sample applications for similar jobs, so I could know exactly what kind of drawings are required?

Gumbo · 14-03-2015 9:53pm

MichaelR wrote: »

I will need to expand the road access gate of a semi-detached house. This requires planning permission. But having a professional do the drawings costs a lot.

When doing actual building I do understand the importance of having a proper plan. But this is a simple job, knock a part of a low garden wall basically. So the drawings would be needed only for PP - and I am inclined to try and make them myself.

So is it possible to get some sample applications for similar jobs, so I could know exactly what kind of drawings are required?

As long as you can do them to Dept. of Environment standards you are fine.
That includes scaling, orientation, correct elevations showing the effect relative to adjoining properties etc. this all has to be lodged to the LA.

then you need to get the wording correct, match it to your site notice and newspaper notice and application form.

Where are you based? And do you mind me asking how much you were quoted for the planning job?

Bear in mind there are also additional costs including newspaper ad, OSi maps and planning fee along with getting the drawings printed out to scale correctly.

This is the biggest problem with DIY planning, properly screamed drawings and insufficient detail to allow the LA to validated the application causing the home owner to have to reapply and in most cases having to repay for new newspaper ad and more printing plus lost time.

MichaelR · 14-03-2015 9:59pm

I am located in county Limerick, not far from the city. I was quoted 600+VAT for the drawings (by an Engineer). I expect the job itself to cost less.

Just realized I could perhaps look for an Arch tech to do the drawings for less, as the Engineer's professional qualification and indemnity insurance are not really needed in this case?

Gumbo · 14-03-2015 10:03pm

MichaelR wrote: »

I am located in county Limerick, not far from the city. I was quoted 600+VAT for the drawings (by an Engineer). I expect the job itself to cost less.

Just realized I could perhaps look for an Arch tech to do the drawings for less, as the Engineer's professional qualification and indemnity insurance are not really needed in this case?

May not be that much less to be honest.
A nixer price for that job here in Dublin would be in and around the €500 mark.

OS maps are €70 from Ordnance Survey Ireland.
LA fee is €34
Newspaper ad could be approx €150.
Then there's printing of the drawings, 6 copies of each required for planning.
Then there's the time to survey and prepare the application and lamination of the site notice and erection on site etc

Deffo shop around, but I wouldn't be expecting it to be substantially less.
Post back up if you get any better prices, just for closure

MichaelR · 14-03-2015 10:08pm

The price quoted is for the drawings alone, perhaps with wording but not including maps, LA fee or ad. Not sure if it includes printing of the copies.

I would not even be sure how to find an arch tech but I might just ask around locally. But honestly I was thinking of finding an existing application and just doing the same stuff on my own; I'm pretty good with software. The question is where to find one.

imfml · 14-03-2015 10:12pm

I'd also be interested in any solution / cheaper option you come across, if you could post here when you decide what to go with. Planning to widen a drive at the end of the summer and trying to keep costs down.
Thanks

Gumbo · 14-03-2015 10:15pm

MichaelR wrote: »

The price quoted is for the drawings alone, perhaps with wording but not including maps, LA fee or ad. Not sure if it includes printing of the copies.

I would not even be sure how to find an arch tech but I might just ask around locally. But honestly I was thinking of finding an existing application and just doing the same stuff on my own; I'm pretty good with software. The question is where to find one.

Autocad is the only option really. You can get a free 3 year student licence but printing is a problem as it is stamped student copy.

Do you know how to draw? Accurately translate site measurements to a drawing then scale it to the LA standards? People think it's straight forward but it's quite detailed, although you are lodging for the most basic type of application so if your gona wet your hands this would be your easiest option!

Ask for a recommendation on these forums and see if anybody is local to you.

moleyv · 14-03-2015 10:30pm

Go to LA websites and look through the weekly planning lists for a new entrance/retention entrance. Get the reference number then look up the application and drawings online.

Maybe Google sketchup will do for the drawings.

You will also need spot levels.

Have a look at a validation checklist for a LA. If you understand everything on it, maybe give it a try. If not, don't bother.

Gumbo · 14-03-2015 10:39pm

moleyv wrote: »

Go to LA websites and look through the weekly planning lists for a new entrance/retention entrance. Get the reference number then look up the application and drawings online.

Maybe Google sketchup will do for the drawings.

You will also need spot levels.

Have a look at a validation checklist for a LA. If you understand everything on it, maybe give it a try. If not, don't bother.

Agree except for the retention drawings. They are done differently than planning drawings so just in case the OP thought a retention drawing would suffice for a standard plan app.

moleyv · 14-03-2015 10:46pm

kceire wrote:

Agree except for the retention drawings. They are done differently than planning drawings so just in case the OP thought a retention drawing would suffice for a standard plan app.

The only difference there should be between a new app and retention (specifically relating to drawings) is that the element for retention will be indicated usually in a different colour or explicitly stated beside it with text.

All of the same information is required.

Gumbo · 15-03-2015 12:15am

moleyv wrote: »

The only difference there should be between a new app and retention (specifically relating to drawings) is that the element for retention will be indicated usually in a different colour or explicitly stated beside it with text.

All of the same information is required.

Different wording.
Different LA fee.
And the drawings would be as built compared to a normal app which would show existing and proposed.

But, were splitting hairs here, of the OP cannot differentiate between them, then he should not do the job DIY.

MichaelR · 15-03-2015 12:38am

Well, for now I'm just going through the weekly lists of the Limerick CC (thanks, moleyv!) and trying to find an application for gate extension. No luck as yet. But I did test with a random application and, yes, the drawings are available online.

moleyv · 15-03-2015 2:02am

MichaelR wrote:

Well, for now I'm just going through the weekly lists of the Limerick CC (thanks, moleyv!) and trying to find an application for gate extension. No luck as yet. But I did test with a random application and, yes, the drawings are available online.

How wide is your entrance, and how much are you widening it by?

Also does your entrance already have planning permission?

Have you any experience with drawings?

MichaelR · 15-03-2015 12:53pm

I don't have the measurements right now (not moved in yet); ballpark would be it's about 3 m now and I'd want to expand by 2 m.

There is no planning permission for the entrance as it was built with the house (which is a part of an estate) and is pre-63.

My experience with drawings, while non-zero, is rather old and was in a different country and a different language. So learning the correct terminology is a challenge, while if I do get that right, the drawings themselves might be easier.

Gumbo · 15-03-2015 3:38pm

MichaelR wrote: »

I don't have the measurements right now (not moved in yet); ballpark would be it's about 3 m now and I'd want to expand by 2 m.

There is no planning permission for the entrance as it was built with the house (which is a part of an estate) and is pre-63.

My experience with drawings, while non-zero, is rather old and was in a different country and a different language. So learning the correct terminology is a challenge, while if I do get that right, the drawings themselves might be easier.

Might be worthwhile approaching the local planner for advice. Here in Dublin, generally the max width of a vehicular entrance is 3.6m. The condition them back to this size of an applicant applies for larger.

MichaelR · 15-03-2015 7:37pm

kceire wrote: »

Might be worthwhile approaching the local planner for advice. Here in Dublin, generally the max width of a vehicular entrance is 3.6m. The condition them back to this size of an applicant applies for larger.

Thanks a lot for the tip - this is quite important, we'll certainly try and ask the council.

The idea behind expanding the gate is safety. We have two cars and I want to be able to reverse them into the driveway side by side. With the existing gate, one can't reverse two cars in side by side so one would have to drive forward, and there is no space in the driveway to turn a car around. So one has to reverse back onto the road - a less safe action than reversing into driveway (and possibly technically illegal, but everyone does it there anyway, and it's a cul de sac, not a proper public road). Or else one would have to park one of the cars on the road itself.

moleyv · 15-03-2015 8:03pm

MichaelR wrote:

Thanks a lot for the tip - this is quite important, we'll certainly try and ask the council.

MichaelR wrote:

The idea behind expanding the gate is safety. We have two cars and I want to be able to reverse them into the driveway side by side. With the existing gate, one can't reverse two cars in side by side so one would have to drive forward, and there is no space in the driveway to turn a car around. So one has to reverse back onto the road - a less safe action than reversing into driveway (and possibly technically illegal, but everyone does it there anyway, and it's a cul de sac, not a proper public road). Or else one would have to park one of the cars on the road itself.

Organise a pre planning, they are free, take photos with you.

What you are proposing might not be desirable from a planning perspective.

Have a look around where you live to see if others have done it (this does not necessarily mean you can, or that they were permitted to do it).

My advice is before you progress anything, to talk to the planner. They might kill the idea stone dead. Take photos of what is there, and photos looking both directions from the entrance.

An agent/ draughtsman would do your drawings regardless.

MichaelR · 15-03-2015 8:10pm

I would rather not bring up any neighbours at the pre-planning as I would not want to be the unwitting cause of someone having enforcement proceedings against them. However, I'll look for a pre-panning meeting and have photos ready.

Poor Uncle Tom · 15-03-2015 10:39pm

MichaelR wrote: »

Just realized I could perhaps look for an Arch tech to do the drawings for less, as the Engineer's professional qualification and indemnity insurance are not really needed in this case?

This is puzzling, how do you expect one profession to do this job cheaper than another? I know you mentioned professional qualifications and professional indemnity insurance but they are needed for both sets of professionals who would submit any planning application. So I am curious as to why you think an Architectural Technologist would do this job cheaper than an Engineer.

MichaelR · 16-03-2015 4:06pm

I don't really see how professional indemnity insurance would be needed for a simple planning application; the professional would not be responsible for the application being rejected, anyway.

Ideally I'd just find a student to do it

But the big takeaway from this thread for me is that I need a pre-planning meeting before I go with any professionals or try any DIY. I didn't know that the gate could be controversial, nor that you could do a pre-planning with just photos.

Poor Uncle Tom · 16-03-2015 4:44pm

MichaelR wrote: »

I don't really see how professional indemnity insurance would be needed for a simple planning application; the professional would not be responsible for the application being rejected, anyway.

It's all hypothetical but, since you are dealing with an entrance, what would happen if the 'cheap' person you hope to employ gets the drawings ever so slightly wrong and planning permission issues on the deficient drawings (it certainly wouldn't be the first time) and you carry out the works in line with said drawings, alls well until there's an accident at the entrance and along comes a (well paid) Engineer and detects the problem.........etc.,

I think having PI Insurance cover is a must when you are providing a service to the public.

MichaelR wrote: »

I could perhaps look for an Arch tech to do the drawings for less,

I was just curious when I saw this statement, the inference being that an Arch Tech would carry out the same work for less than an Engineer.

MichaelR · 16-03-2015 4:58pm

Well what happens if I do the drawing DIY then? The work itself will most likely be done DIY with a handyman, anyway. It's just not big enough to justify the overhead of a building contractor? Unless some sort of condition is placed on it that requires a contractor to fulfil.

Ideally I'd want a rubber cover at the new gate edge/pillar, to reduce scratching in case a car is reversed into the gate and things go a bit wrong (that would be to protect, primarily, my own vehicles). Or even make the entire friggin' pillar out of plastic; it's not like these walls provide any security, anyway, any adult can step over them (there are no cattle around, it's a housing estate). But I don't think these options are available at all. One could also place a used truck tyre at the pillar, but that would be an eyesore and might cause complaints? I can't really go to every single house in the estate and ensure they don't object, and I would not want to get started on the wrong note in a new location...

Pre-planning is probably the right place to discuss some of these concerns. BTW, my wife thinks my ballpark estimates are wrong, the entrance is around 2.5 m now and expanding it to 3.6 m would give us enough space. I'll certainly have complete measurements on hand for pre-planning.

As for Arch tech, I did hear they charged less than Architects. Perhaps my inference that Engineers and Architects are at about the same level was wrong? If so, well thanks for correcting me. Getting assumptions corrected is one of the big reason one asks on an Internet forum.

imfml · 26-06-2015 7:47pm

Hi Michael,

Did you have a pre-planning meeting yet?

I am about to apply for permission to widen my gate in a narrow cul-de-sac, so that I can finally have it wide enough to get my car into the drive.

Any tips appreciated.

Thanks

Gumbo · 26-06-2015 8:03pm

imfml wrote: »

Hi Michael,

Did you have a pre-planning meeting yet?

I am about to apply for permission to widen my gate in a narrow cul-de-sac, so that I can finally have it wide enough to get my car into the drive.

Any tips appreciated.

Thanks

What council are you in?

MichaelR · 29-06-2015 4:08am

I have for now abandoned the project and can't advise.

imfml · 29-06-2015 9:39am

kceire wrote: »

What council are you in?

Dublin City Council

MichaelR wrote: »

I have for now abandoned the project and can't advise.

OK thanks. Can't say I'm surprised, so much red tape for such a simple job.

Gumbo · 29-06-2015 2:49pm

imfml wrote: »

Dublin City Council

OK thanks. Can't say I'm surprised, so much red tape for such a simple job.

Have you got your planning ready? ie. drawings ready and architect/Technician engaged?

Theres not really much red tape, its a standard planning application tbh.

imfml · 29-06-2015 3:30pm

kceire wrote: »

Have you got your planning ready? ie. drawings ready and architect/Technician engaged?

Theres not really much red tape, its a standard planning application tbh.

I have everything except the drawings. To my mind it is red tape if I need the same level of drawings to widen a pre existing gate by 1 meter as I would to build a two story extension.

It significantly increases the cost of a simple job as I can't do the drawings myself. No wonder half the city have driveways without pp!

BryanF · 29-06-2015 3:43pm

Imfml we feel your pain, BUT we obey the planning laws in this forum

imfml · 29-06-2015 3:54pm

Absolutely, I wouldn't do the job without it and am far from advocating it. Just venting - sorry!

Sample planning permission application for expanding gate

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