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Home heating oil heating

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  • Options
    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Must have been wrong so....
    Hmmmm.....
    I wonder are you one of the guilty 4!

    The only thing I'm guilty of is not using my ignore button more often.


  • Options
    #33
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    gary71 wrote: »
    The only thing I'm guilty of is not using my ignore button more often.

    Gentlemen I'm only takin the p1ss


  • Options
    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dtp79 wrote: »
    Gentlemen I'm only takin the p1ss

    Apology accepted.


  • Options
    #35
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    gary71 wrote: »
    Apology accepted.

    The fact ye were offended shocked me!!!


  • Options
    #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dtp79 wrote: »
    The fact ye were offended shocked me!!!

    But i'm not, I just thought I'd better accepted your lovely apology cos I don't get them often:D





    I used to have a job where poo and pee were thrown at me on a daily basis so after that I rarely take offence unless someone steals my oil then I'm fairly cranky.


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  • Options
    #37
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    gary71 wrote: »
    But i'm not, I just thought I'd better accepted your lovely apology cos I don't get them often:D





    I used to have a job where poo and pee were thrown at me on a daily basis so after that I rarely take offence unless someone steals my oil then I'm fairly cranky.
    You were either a nurse or a PO. And I thought u were a gas man not oil!


  • Options
    #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dtp79 wrote: »
    You were either a nurse or a PO. And I thought u were a gas man not oil!


    I am a gasman, i'v got all my OFTEC and I'm walking proof that eejits can be found working on oil as well.



    I was in the incarceration buissness.


  • Options
    #39
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Jeeeeesus lads, I'm the one who went to the pub.
    U all been sniffing the gas again or what?? !!


  • Options
    #40
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    shane0007 wrote: »
    If that is true, then how is the varying fuels catered for as I previously described?
    Anyone here a delivery driver?

    Folks, sometimes a driver will use an empty compartment to pump to and get the line ready for the next delivery. When a lorry leaves a depot, all compartments would be full, hence why driver has to route not just the physical geography route but also the sequence of tanks / fuels he is delivering to.

    ps you should always be aware of how much fuel your tank will take and keep an eye. An unscrupulous driver could also use an empty compartment to save up a hundred litres here and there and then offload to a friendly tank. Yes there are meters but yes there are ways to diddle also.
    Also note that unlike vehicle petrol tanks, oil storage tanks usually hold up to 10% more than they are rated for. So a 1360c for instance could hold well over 1400 litres.

    Source: - I worked in oil for years.


  • Options
    #41
    JR Ewing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭JR Ewing


    Hey guys just reading your posts which appear to be making enquiries of potential scams within the oil business?

    I have worked in the business for years & the market at the moment is absolutely rotten with rogue & fradulent operators. Retaining the contents of the hose on "change overs" is just one of many or where the 80l hose contents is used to pump kerosene into unleaded petrol or marked gas oil into road diesel to double the profit margin on those 80 litres. Beleive it or not there are far bigger scams going on & all are driven by the customers pursuit of what looks like the "cheapest price". It is scandalous what is going on & I have outlined below some of the many wholesale fraudulent methods where people are being conned.


    Purchasing home heating oil, agri diesel, petrol or road diesel is a unique experience for any consumer as it is the only time:

    1. You are buying something you cannot see
    2. You are buying something you cannot measure or quantify yourself
    3. You are buying something which you don’t know what it consists of
    4. The only thing the consumer can compare is the price & “assumes” that all else is equal

    It is this assumption which is being preyed upon by rogue and unscrupulous suppliers. Most consumers’ attitude to buying oil is to research and do price comparisons between local suppliers BUT in many cases the so called “cheapest” quotation is from a supplier who will use one of a number of methods to “short” the customer for profit. Price is only 33% of the equation as it is not representative of volume or product quality.

    The common methods which are available to an unscrupulous supplier include the following:

    A. Short Measure
    While all delivery trucks and service station pumps are supposed to have NSAI/Legal Metrology Service (LMS) certified meters how many don’t? How many have been tampered with or incorrectly set initially? How does the customer know either way? My employer has told me that since entering the business in the early 1980’s he has only had 2 “weights & measures” or LMS inspections and on both occasions when the inspectors saw “sealed” meters they assumed they were correctly calibrated without doing any further checks. It should be mandatory that all truck meters and service station pumps should be independently verified on an annual basis and that consumers should have the right to request copies of certification from suppliers or indeed that the certificate should be attached to each pump. This is a highly lucrative exercise for any rogue supplier without leaving the consumer vastly short- for example- a distributor or service station who can sell 5 million litres of petrol or road diesel per annum with a miscalibration of just 3% short can withhold 300,000 from his clients and with oil prices at current levels this equates to close to €450,000 while many customers will not notice a 3% volume deficit reduction.
    B. Air or Temperature Contamination
    Even if the meter calibration certificate is available, and is correct, it is apparently not 100% security against deception. Rumour abounds that there are suppliers with perfectly sealed and calibrated meters which then have an air hose inlet retro fitted to the line prior to passing through the meter (most likely on trucks rather than at service stations). The science involved uses compressed air to create bubbles in the oil before it passes through the meter enhancing and overstating the volume put through. If the truck is due to be inspected they simply switch off the air valve and the meter reverts to perfectly correct calibration. Another reported possible scam is where a container of a cold liquid (e.g. liquid nitrogen flask or ice bank) is placed close to the temperature probe of a temperature compensated meter to make sure that it always reads less than the optimum 15 degrees also resulting in a loss to the customer. Neither of the above scams would be easily detectable by an inspector as they could be very well concealed.
    C. Preprinted Delivery Dockets
    Rumours also circulate that there are suppliers who issue “pre printed” delivery tickets to unattended deliveries. The theory here is that a supplier could run off vast quantities of different quantity tickets i.e. 300 litres, 500 litres, 1000 litres etc and then when they arrive at an unattended delivery put no meter ticket in the meter instead using a pre printed ticket and leaving the volume short. I would estimate that particularly in the home heating market approx 50-60% of deliveries would be unattended as people may be at work when the delivery is being made.
    D. Washed/Manipulated Product
    There has been much press dedicated to the fact that there is a mass volume of “washed” road diesel product available on the market but it still hasn’t stopped people from buying it and the fraudsters from staying in business. The cheaper price of this product is what attracts the customers and it is impossible to compete with.
    E. Stretched Product
    Allegedly there are also suppliers “stretching” road and agri diesel by adding cheaper bio diesel to the product to increase their potential margin while ethanol/alcohol is supposedly being added to petrol for the same purpose.
    F. Illegally Imported Product
    A significant volume of kerosene from Northern Ireland also appears to be making its way South and while it comes in as a “clear” colour it is then mixed with “red” kerosene in The South resulting in the whole mix being red but just not as red as it should be. The difference in duty and carbon tax is alleged to be close to €5,000 per articulated truck load. Feel free to check out sites such as www.cheapestoil.ie which offers “price comparisons” for the country- why are the cheapest suppliers all located close to the border? Why are no recognizable brand names or direct importers such as Topaz, Valero, TOP appearing close to the top of the list?

    The market as a whole is completely unregulated and is being targeted by all sorts of criminals and fraudsters- even if you suspected that you had been left short in a delivery- how would you prove it? Who would you report it to?

    Becareful where you buy your oil & stick to reputable suppliers in your local area for the best chance of avoiding any potential scams.


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  • Options
    #42
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    JR Ewing wrote: »
    Hey guys just reading your posts which appear to be making enquiries of potential scams within the oil business?

    I have worked in the business for years & the market at the moment is absolutely rotten with rogue & fradulent operators. Retaining the contents of the hose on "change overs" is just one of many or where the 80l hose contents is used to pump kerosene into unleaded petrol or marked gas oil into road diesel to double the profit margin on those 80 litres. Beleive it or not there are far bigger scams going on & all are driven by the customers pursuit of what looks like the "cheapest price". It is scandalous what is going on & I have outlined below some of the many wholesale fraudulent methods where people are being conned.


    Purchasing home heating oil, agri diesel, petrol or road diesel is a unique experience for any consumer as it is the only time:

    1. You are buying something you cannot see
    2. You are buying something you cannot measure or quantify yourself
    3. You are buying something which you don’t know what it consists of
    4. The only thing the consumer can compare is the price & “assumes” that all else is equal

    It is this assumption which is being preyed upon by rogue and unscrupulous suppliers. Most consumers’ attitude to buying oil is to research and do price comparisons between local suppliers BUT in many cases the so called “cheapest” quotation is from a supplier who will use one of a number of methods to “short” the customer for profit. Price is only 33% of the equation as it is not representative of volume or product quality.

    The common methods which are available to an unscrupulous supplier include the following:

    A. Short Measure
    While all delivery trucks and service station pumps are supposed to have NSAI/Legal Metrology Service (LMS) certified meters how many don’t? How many have been tampered with or incorrectly set initially? How does the customer know either way? My employer has told me that since entering the business in the early 1980’s he has only had 2 “weights & measures” or LMS inspections and on both occasions when the inspectors saw “sealed” meters they assumed they were correctly calibrated without doing any further checks. It should be mandatory that all truck meters and service station pumps should be independently verified on an annual basis and that consumers should have the right to request copies of certification from suppliers or indeed that the certificate should be attached to each pump. This is a highly lucrative exercise for any rogue supplier without leaving the consumer vastly short- for example- a distributor or service station who can sell 5 million litres of petrol or road diesel per annum with a miscalibration of just 3% short can withhold 300,000 from his clients and with oil prices at current levels this equates to close to €450,000 while many customers will not notice a 3% volume deficit reduction.
    B. Air or Temperature Contamination
    Even if the meter calibration certificate is available, and is correct, it is apparently not 100% security against deception. Rumour abounds that there are suppliers with perfectly sealed and calibrated meters which then have an air hose inlet retro fitted to the line prior to passing through the meter (most likely on trucks rather than at service stations). The science involved uses compressed air to create bubbles in the oil before it passes through the meter enhancing and overstating the volume put through. If the truck is due to be inspected they simply switch off the air valve and the meter reverts to perfectly correct calibration. Another reported possible scam is where a container of a cold liquid (e.g. liquid nitrogen flask or ice bank) is placed close to the temperature probe of a temperature compensated meter to make sure that it always reads less than the optimum 15 degrees also resulting in a loss to the customer. Neither of the above scams would be easily detectable by an inspector as they could be very well concealed.
    C. Preprinted Delivery Dockets
    Rumours also circulate that there are suppliers who issue “pre printed” delivery tickets to unattended deliveries. The theory here is that a supplier could run off vast quantities of different quantity tickets i.e. 300 litres, 500 litres, 1000 litres etc and then when they arrive at an unattended delivery put no meter ticket in the meter instead using a pre printed ticket and leaving the volume short. I would estimate that particularly in the home heating market approx 50-60% of deliveries would be unattended as people may be at work when the delivery is being made.
    D. Washed/Manipulated Product
    There has been much press dedicated to the fact that there is a mass volume of “washed” road diesel product available on the market but it still hasn’t stopped people from buying it and the fraudsters from staying in business. The cheaper price of this product is what attracts the customers and it is impossible to compete with.
    E. Stretched Product
    Allegedly there are also suppliers “stretching” road and agri diesel by adding cheaper bio diesel to the product to increase their potential margin while ethanol/alcohol is supposedly being added to petrol for the same purpose.
    F. Illegally Imported Product
    A significant volume of kerosene from Northern Ireland also appears to be making its way South and while it comes in as a “clear” colour it is then mixed with “red” kerosene in The South resulting in the whole mix being red but just not as red as it should be. The difference in duty and carbon tax is alleged to be close to €5,000 per articulated truck load. Feel free to check out sites such as www.cheapestoil.ie which offers “price comparisons” for the country- why are the cheapest suppliers all located close to the border? Why are no recognizable brand names or direct importers such as Topaz, Valero, TOP appearing close to the top of the list?

    The market as a whole is completely unregulated and is being targeted by all sorts of criminals and fraudsters- even if you suspected that you had been left short in a delivery- how would you prove it? Who would you report it to?

    Becareful where you buy your oil & stick to reputable suppliers in your local area for the best chance of avoiding any potential scams.



    Very scary to think it could be this bad. I heard all the rumours from a few buddies who supply oil and knew of some of the scams but not to this extent. A big thank you for all this info and your effort in such a long detailed reply.


  • Options
    #43
    crafty cuckoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭crafty cuckoo


    the amount in the hose is pumped back into the tank after docket is printed


  • Options
    #44
    zapata
    Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭zapata


    Saw this Northern Ireland registered truck in Celbridge today. No registration plate on the back but the front reg was OIL****.
    That is a fair distance to travel to deliver oil. Would this truck be subject to the weights and measures test by http://www.nsai.ie/About-NSAI/Departments/LMS.aspx

    271489.jpg


  • Options
    #45
    JR Ewing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭JR Ewing


    zapata wrote: »
    Saw this Northern Ireland registered truck in Celbridge today. No registration plate on the back but the front reg was OIL****.
    That is a fair distance to travel to deliver oil. Would this truck be subject to the weights and measures test by http://www.nsai.ie/About-NSAI/Departments/LMS.aspx

    271489.jpg

    Great catch Zapata. It is marked as if it is carrying kerosene (but you never know what would be onboard).

    The fact that there were dodgy looking number plates and a northern reg is the first alarm. The most likely scenario is that this guy was delivering a load of illegal clear kerosene to a rogue operator locally or a load of washed diesel to either a distributor/service station.

    Even with local operators you would need to question how far they are prepared to travel while offering "cheap" looking prices? The cost of road diesel is approx €1.50 per litre and the average margin on a delivery of oil is €40 gross so how far can any provider afford to travel while still making a profit? A legitimate answer is if they have 6-8 deliveries close together it may justify the travel cost but it is always the first alarm bell which should go off if a supplier from 20-30 miles away is prepared to under cut your local man.

    Might be useful to make that picture available to local Gardai or customs as I somehow think they would be very interested in it.


  • Options
    #46
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    zapata wrote: »
    Saw this Northern Ireland registered truck in Celbridge today. No registration plate on the back but the front reg was OIL****.
    That is a fair distance to travel to deliver oil. Would this truck be subject to the weights and measures test by http://www.nsai.ie/About-NSAI/Departments/LMS.aspx

    271489.jpg

    I've seen two northern Ireland reg. trucks down this way (Cork) with fairly old rusty and battered unmarked trailers. Trucks looked very new, no sign writing on them, possible lease hired . State of trailers made them stand out. No I didn't report it, it was only after seeing the second one the following week that I got suspesious. Long way from NI. and nowhere near Cork Oil refinery or assosated roads !!
    Looking and will report next one.


    Truck and trailer in photo above looks to good compaired to what I saw.


  • Options
    #47
    marynayr
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭marynayr


    Thanks everyone for your replies. Only problem is that I am non the wiser. I will keep dealing with my local dealer, they seem to have a good reputation and ok price wise.


  • Options
    #48
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    marynayr wrote: »
    Thanks everyone for your replies. Only problem is that I am non the wiser. I will keep dealing with my local dealer, they seem to have a good reputation and ok price wise.

    Hi Marynar,

    Sorry we all got carried away.
    I believe in life that most people are good and honest, its only the small few that give us a bad name. Go by your gut feeling, I do. (in everything)

    Good honest people last in this country.

    The con men come and go.


  • Options
    #49
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    JR Ewing wrote: »
    Hey guys just reading your posts which appear to be making enquiries of potential scams within the oil business?

    I have worked in the business for years & the market at the moment is absolutely rotten with rogue & fradulent operators. Retaining the contents of the hose on "change overs" is just one of many or where the 80l hose contents is used to pump kerosene into unleaded petrol or marked gas oil into road diesel to double the profit margin on those 80 litres. Beleive it or not there are far bigger scams going on & all are driven by the customers pursuit of what looks like the "cheapest price". It is scandalous what is going on & I have outlined below some of the many wholesale fraudulent methods where people are being conned.


    Purchasing home heating oil, agri diesel, petrol or road diesel is a unique experience for any consumer as it is the only time:

    1. You are buying something you cannot see
    2. You are buying something you cannot measure or quantify yourself
    3. You are buying something which you don’t know what it consists of
    4. The only thing the consumer can compare is the price & “assumes” that all else is equal

    It is this assumption which is being preyed upon by rogue and unscrupulous suppliers. Most consumers’ attitude to buying oil is to research and do price comparisons between local suppliers BUT in many cases the so called “cheapest” quotation is from a supplier who will use one of a number of methods to “short” the customer for profit. Price is only 33% of the equation as it is not representative of volume or product quality.

    The common methods which are available to an unscrupulous supplier include the following:

    A. Short Measure
    While all delivery trucks and service station pumps are supposed to have NSAI/Legal Metrology Service (LMS) certified meters how many don’t? How many have been tampered with or incorrectly set initially? How does the customer know either way? My employer has told me that since entering the business in the early 1980’s he has only had 2 “weights & measures” or LMS inspections and on both occasions when the inspectors saw “sealed” meters they assumed they were correctly calibrated without doing any further checks. It should be mandatory that all truck meters and service station pumps should be independently verified on an annual basis and that consumers should have the right to request copies of certification from suppliers or indeed that the certificate should be attached to each pump. This is a highly lucrative exercise for any rogue supplier without leaving the consumer vastly short- for example- a distributor or service station who can sell 5 million litres of petrol or road diesel per annum with a miscalibration of just 3% short can withhold 300,000 from his clients and with oil prices at current levels this equates to close to €450,000 while many customers will not notice a 3% volume deficit reduction.
    B. Air or Temperature Contamination
    Even if the meter calibration certificate is available, and is correct, it is apparently not 100% security against deception. Rumour abounds that there are suppliers with perfectly sealed and calibrated meters which then have an air hose inlet retro fitted to the line prior to passing through the meter (most likely on trucks rather than at service stations). The science involved uses compressed air to create bubbles in the oil before it passes through the meter enhancing and overstating the volume put through. If the truck is due to be inspected they simply switch off the air valve and the meter reverts to perfectly correct calibration. Another reported possible scam is where a container of a cold liquid (e.g. liquid nitrogen flask or ice bank) is placed close to the temperature probe of a temperature compensated meter to make sure that it always reads less than the optimum 15 degrees also resulting in a loss to the customer. Neither of the above scams would be easily detectable by an inspector as they could be very well concealed.
    C. Preprinted Delivery Dockets
    Rumours also circulate that there are suppliers who issue “pre printed” delivery tickets to unattended deliveries. The theory here is that a supplier could run off vast quantities of different quantity tickets i.e. 300 litres, 500 litres, 1000 litres etc and then when they arrive at an unattended delivery put no meter ticket in the meter instead using a pre printed ticket and leaving the volume short. I would estimate that particularly in the home heating market approx 50-60% of deliveries would be unattended as people may be at work when the delivery is being made.
    D. Washed/Manipulated Product
    There has been much press dedicated to the fact that there is a mass volume of “washed” road diesel product available on the market but it still hasn’t stopped people from buying it and the fraudsters from staying in business. The cheaper price of this product is what attracts the customers and it is impossible to compete with.
    E. Stretched Product
    Allegedly there are also suppliers “stretching” road and agri diesel by adding cheaper bio diesel to the product to increase their potential margin while ethanol/alcohol is supposedly being added to petrol for the same purpose.
    F. Illegally Imported Product
    A significant volume of kerosene from Northern Ireland also appears to be making its way South and while it comes in as a “clear” colour it is then mixed with “red” kerosene in The South resulting in the whole mix being red but just not as red as it should be. The difference in duty and carbon tax is alleged to be close to €5,000 per articulated truck load. Feel free to check out sites such as www.cheapestoil.ie which offers “price comparisons” for the country- why are the cheapest suppliers all located close to the border? Why are no recognizable brand names or direct importers such as Topaz, Valero, TOP appearing close to the top of the list?

    The market as a whole is completely unregulated and is being targeted by all sorts of criminals and fraudsters- even if you suspected that you had been left short in a delivery- how would you prove it? Who would you report it to?

    Becareful where you buy your oil & stick to reputable suppliers in your local area for the best chance of avoiding any potential scams.

    Did ye all read this ?

    If not, do.


  • Options
    #50
    JR Ewing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 37 ✭JR Ewing


    Just a heads up....

    The recent downward trend in Platts oil prices looks set to come to an end tomorrow and we now expect price increases from Thursday night/Friday onwards- personally I think there will be an increase of between 0.75-1.00c on Thursday night with how the market looks this afternoon.

    Essentially market prices have "bounced" off technical resistant levels for WTI crude oil of just over $103 dollars a barrel and with positive international news in recent days they should hold above this point. The way I see it is that prices look like increasing for Fri & Monday with the next move mid week (next week) critical- I think if that move is upward then prices will go up again quickly HOWEVER if next weeks move is back below $103 then there may be further falls in Platts (good news for everyone!!).

    Might help people decide when is a good time to buy. The "barrel" prices quoted take a long time to be reflected in Platts or Schedule Prices so I am trying to give you an idea which way the price will move to the public rather than on the markets.


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