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ECJ: Railways *must* reimburse for weather delays, no matter the fault

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  • 26-09-2013 10:09pm
    #1
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭


    This has to be a remarkably crazy ruling by the European Court of Justice. Applies to all railway companies in the EU. Does not apply to air travel, sea travel or long-distance bus travel.

    Der Spiegel
    European railway companies must give partial refunds to passengers who are significantly delayed by bad weather, natural disasters or strikes after a ruling by the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The judgement is a blow for train firms who up until now only had to pay out if they were at fault. ...

    The ruling follows a publicised incident when Germany's national rail provider, Deutsche Bahn, refused to pay out in August over delays caused by inclement weather that dragged on for days. Deutsche Bahn claimed at the time that because the weather was out of its control, it should not have to pay for taxis and hotel rooms for stranded passengers. The new rules will mean that in future, the company will also have to pony up in case of strikes, landslides and other unforeseen circumstances. ...

    The judgement covers all railway companies in Europe and invalidates any conditions clauses they might have that exempt compensation in cases of force majeure. ... The new reimbursement obligation does not apply to air, ship or long-distance coach transport. ...


Comments

  • Options
    #2
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Why do the rail companies get to be kicked about like this?


  • Options
    #3
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    define "significantly" though?


  • Options
    #4
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    define "significantly" though?
    The article says this:
    Under EU law, travellers are entitled to a refund of at least a quarter of the price of their ticket if they are delayed by one to two hours. That doubles after more than two hours.

    The Luxembourg court ruled on Thursday that the rules exempting train companies in cases of force majeure, i.e. where the problems are out of their control, "relate only to the right of passengers to receive compensation for damage or loss resulting from the delay or cancellation of a train." Payouts calculated on the price of the ticket, on the other hand, are intended to compensate for the fact that the service paid for had not been delivered. ...
    Sounds to me like we're back in Caligula's days, with horses being appointed as senators.


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    #5
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    According to breakingnews.ie it will only apply to Enterprise for now, domestic not until end 2014.
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/train-passengers-entitled-to-refund-for-delays-eu-court-rules-608200.html


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    #6
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    dowlingm wrote: »
    According to breakingnews.ie it will only apply to Enterprise for now, domestic not until end 2014.
    They offer no proof that these rules don't apply to domestic Irish trains. Ireland is very much under the aegis of the ECJ.


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    #7
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    MGWR wrote: »
    They offer no proof that these rules don't apply to domestic Irish trains. Ireland is very much under the aegis of the ECJ.

    Once again, you jump in without checking the facts.

    Is this enough proof for you?
    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/passenger-rights/
    Ireland has exercised its right under the Regulation to exempt domestic rail services from much of the scope of the Regulation until 4th December 2014.


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    #8
    RonanM123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 120 ✭✭RonanM123


    As rail comes to a stop with little weather changes, its not a surprise IE have delayed it as if they didn't they would be gone bust. Once temp goes near 0 points across the network freeze as unlike Europe very few are heated here and any sets being renewed are not even being heated.

    This could give management a kick up the arse it needs when dealing with delays by weather.

    Instead of the current set up, wait for the first train to arrive at points etc and only then send somebody down and delay trains 45-70 minutes on average. This may not happen in Dublin area but on Intercity routes it does.

    They will have staff on duty to walk the lines and check the points and deal with it before trains come. Checks across the network should be made between 5 and 6 before the bulk of first trains depart.

    Remember Irish Rails excuses for weather delays just don't happen in Europe.

    Ixflyer please don't come on and defend IE or make up excuses for them.


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    #9
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    Such an assertation is meaningless under EU laws, which are supreme over Irish law per the Third Amendment. Biggest example of late has been the re-assertion of the Working Time Directive, whose opt-outs were legislated away at a whim.

    The government possesses no such right. It is rather a privilege. Here is section 25:
    Railway undertakings in some Member States may experience difficulty in applying the entirety of the provisions of this Regulation on its entry into force. Therefore, Member States should be able to grant temporary exemptions from the application of the provisions of this Regulation to long-distance domestic rail passenger services. The temporary exemption should, however, not apply to the provisions of this Regulation that grant disabled persons or persons with reduced mobility access to travel by rail, nor to the right of those wishing to purchase tickets for travel by rail to do so without undue difficulty, nor to the provisions on railway undertakings’ liability in respect of passengers and their luggage, the requirement that undertakings be adequately insured, and the requirement that those undertakings take adequate measures to ensure passengers’ personal security in railway stations and on trains and to manage risk.
    There is no evidence that IE would have any difficulty in applying that judgement. Therefore, they cannot ask for an exemption. It is not presented herein as a "right"; therefore calling it a right is mendacious.


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    #10
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    RonanM123 wrote: »
    Ixflyer please don't come on and defend IE or make up excuses for them.

    Focusing on users like this is against the charter and will not be tolerated.

    - moderator


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    #11
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,312 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    MGWR wrote: »
    They offer no proof that these rules don't apply to domestic Irish trains. Ireland is very much under the aegis of the ECJ.
    Since MGWR is too lazy to check the basis for breakingnews' copy:
    S.I. No. 473 of 2009

    EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES (RAIL PASSENGERS’ RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS) (DOMESTIC PASSENGER RAIL SERVICES) (EXEMPTION) REGULATIONS 2009

    Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in

    “Iris Oifigiúil” of 4th December, 2009.

    I, NOEL DEMPSEY, Minister for Transport, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 3 of the European Communities Act 1972 (No. 27 of 1972), and for the purposes of granting an exemption under Article 2(4) of Regulation (EC) No. 1371/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2007 1 , hereby make the following regulations:

    1. These Regulations may be cited as the European Communities (Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations) (Domestic Passenger Rail Services) (Exemption) Regulations 2009.

    2. Domestic rail passenger services in the State which do not cross the borders of the State are exempt, until 4 December 2014, from the application of Regulation (EC) No. 1371/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2007.

    GIVEN under my Official Seal,

    1 December 2009.

    NOEL DEMPSEY,

    Minister for Transport.

    EXPLANATORY NOTE

    (This note is not part of the Instrument and does not purport to be a legal interpretation.)

    The purpose of these Regulations is to exempt certain rail services from the scope of Regulation (EC) No. 1371/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2007.
    (emphasis added)

    Regulation 1371/2007 was the basis for ECJ's judgement
    http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2013-09/cp130119en.pdf

    Discussion of the effectiveness or otherwise of 1371/2007 can be found in this report, including the role of exemptions:
    http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/passengers/studies/doc/2012-07-evaluation-regulation-1371-2007.pdf


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    #12
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    RonanM123 wrote: »
    As rail comes to a stop with little weather changes, its not a surprise IE have delayed it as if they didn't they would be gone bust. Once temp goes near 0 points across the network freeze as unlike Europe very few are heated here and any sets being renewed are not even being heated.

    This could give management a kick up the arse it needs when dealing with delays by weather.

    Instead of the current set up, wait for the first train to arrive at points etc and only then send somebody down and delay trains 45-70 minutes on average. This may not happen in Dublin area but on Intercity routes it does.

    They will have staff on duty to walk the lines and check the points and deal with it before trains come. Checks across the network should be made between 5 and 6 before the bulk of first trains depart.

    Remember Irish Rails excuses for weather delays just don't happen in Europe.

    Ixflyer please don't come on and defend IE or make up excuses for them.

    For the record (yet again) it is LXFlyer.

    No defence required - I was correcting an inaccurate post, that's all. I don't think I expressed an opinion on the topic whatsoever, other than to provide backup that domestic travel in Ireland is exempt until December 2014.


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    #13
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Since MGWR is too lazy to check the basis for breakingnews' copy:
    (emphasis added)

    Regulation 1371/2007 was the basis for ECJ's judgement
    http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2013-09/cp130119en.pdf

    Discussion of the effectiveness or otherwise of 1371/2007 can be found in this report, including the role of exemptions:
    http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/passengers/studies/doc/2012-07-evaluation-regulation-1371-2007.pdf
    Mr Dempsey is in violation of the ruling of the ECJ in that case. Exemptions are not to be merely taken by fiat per the EU regulation.

    With all due respect to everyone, these arguments remind me of those concerning Ireland's military involvement with the EU and the long-dead notion of "neutrality" which has been cast away. The "solidarity clause" of the Treaty of Lisbon makes things clear on that matter. Just like that, EU law and ECJ rulings are supreme here and any exemptions are nullified.


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    #14
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MGWR wrote: »
    Mr Dempsey is in violation of the ruling of the ECJ in that case. Exemptions are not to be merely taken by fiat per the EU regulation.

    With all due respect to everyone, these arguments remind me of those concerning Ireland's military involvement with the EU and the long-dead notion of "neutrality" which has been cast away. The "solidarity clause" of the Treaty of Lisbon makes things clear on that matter. Just like that, EU law and ECJ rulings are supreme here and any exemptions are nullified.

    With all due respect: What are you talking about?

    The ruling of the ECJ applies to services covered by the regulations -- as far as I can see nowhere has the ECJ said that EU-law based exemptions to the regulations are nullified.

    As referenced by the Irish S.I. No. 473 of 2009, which is quoted above by dowlingm, the European Union law called Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 clearly allows for a member state to grant its self an exemption as detail in the regulations:
    Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2007 on rail passengers’ rights and obligations

    Article 2
    ...

    3. On the entry into force of this Regulation, Articles 9, 11, 12, 19, 20(1) and 26 shall apply to all rail passenger services throughout the Community.

    4. With the exception of the provisions set out in paragraph 3, a Member State may, on a transparent and non-discriminatory basis, grant an exemption for a period no longer than five years, which may be renewed twice for a maximum period of five years on each occasion, from the application of the provisions of this Regulation to domestic rail passenger services.

    Please don't try to counter this unless you have a link to an ECJ judgement which says (2) 4 of Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 is nullified.


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    #15
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    dowlingm wrote: »
    Since MGWR is too lazy to check the basis for breakingnews' copy:

    Please don't call other posters lazy -- it's counted as flaming.


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    #16
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    monument wrote: »
    With all due respect: What are you talking about?

    The ruling of the ECJ applies to services covered by the regulations -- as far as I can see nowhere has the ECJ said that EU-law based exemptions to the regulations are nullified.

    As referenced by the Irish S.I. No. 473 of 2009, which is quoted above by dowlingm, the European Union law called Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 clearly allows for a member state to grant its self an exemption as detail in the regulations:
    Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 October 2007 on rail passengers’ rights and obligations

    Article 2
    ...

    3. On the entry into force of this Regulation, Articles 9, 11, 12, 19, 20(1) and 26 shall apply to all rail passenger services throughout the Community.

    4. With the exception of the provisions set out in paragraph 3, a Member State may, on a transparent and non-discriminatory basis, grant an exemption for a period no longer than five years, which may be renewed twice for a maximum period of five years on each occasion, from the application of the provisions of this Regulation to domestic rail passenger services.
    Please don't try to counter this unless you have a link to an ECJ judgement which says (2) 4 of Regulation (EC) No 1371/2007 is nullified.
    In an earlier post I quoted a paragraph in the regulations that stipulated that exemptions are to be granted only in the case of difficulty in implementing the regulations. That puts the burden of proof on the member state, who can be adjudged to have granted an invalid exemption and (AFAICS) cannot withstand this judgement.

    It was not I who brought up exemptions, real or alleged.


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    #17
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MGWR wrote: »
    In an earlier post I quoted a paragraph in the regulations that stipulated that exemptions are to be granted only in the case of difficulty in implementing the regulations. That puts the burden of proof on the member state, who can be adjudged to have granted an invalid exemption and (AFAICS) cannot withstand this judgement.

    It was not I who brought up exemptions, real or alleged.

    Yes, they can withstand the judgemen, as nobody has proven that the exemption is invalid. I don't see any indication that the European Commission are even looking at the issue, and they clearly have not formed the view that the exemption is invalid.

    If you have some proof that the exemption is invalid you can write to the Internal Market and Services section at:

    European Commission
    Directorate-General Internal Market and Services
    B - 1049 Bruxelles/Brussel (Belgium)

    Until you get those guys interisted all this talk of the burden of proof is on the member state is premature.

    At the moment the only thing we can safely say is that you disagree with the exemption.


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