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Wood Gasification Boiler / Underfloor Heating

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  • 19-08-2015 8:52pm
    #1
    Bornagainbiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭


    Hi,

    I'm looking for some advice on a DIY upgrade of my domestic heating/plumbing.

    I have asked a number of contractors to look at the job, but for one reason or another they don't seem to want to take on the job, so I'm left to my own devices.

    First off, crux of problem is that I use 4 fills of oil per year to heat 1850 sq. ft bungalow (ouch!!). I have a few areas that could do with some expert advice.

    1. What is the best way of connecting a wood gasification boiler into the system? Can I use non-return valves and simply tee into the supply from the existing boiler? (I hope that oil will become my secondary heat supply)
    2. The underfloor mixing valve is worn out and needs replacing. The supply and return pipes to underfloor manifold are 28mm and there seems to be a huge variety of replacement valves with varying price tags. Can anybody recommend a decent valve that will do its job without being overly complicated.
    3. There are two pumps one the system. One on the flow to underfloor heating, and one on the return from the hot water cylinder. I noticed this week that when the cylinder was being heated, the hot water was being sucked through the underfloor pipes in reverse (i.e. in through return manifold and out through flow manifold). This can't be helping the situation. I assume that the underfloor heating should be separate to the hot water coil? Any suggestions?
    Thanks in advance of any replies.
    Tagged:


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    #2
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,735 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Bornagainbiker wrote: »
    Hi,

    I'm looking for some advice on a DIY upgrade of my domestic heating/plumbing.

    I have asked a number of contractors to look at the job, but for one reason or another they don't seem to want to take on the job, so I'm left to my own devices.

    First off, crux of problem is that I use 4 fills of oil per year to heat 1850 sq. ft bungalow (ouch!!). I have a few areas that could do with some expert advice.

    1. What is the best way of connecting a wood gasification boiler into the system? Can I use non-return valves and simply tee into the supply from the existing boiler? (I hope that oil will become my secondary heat supply)
    2. The underfloor mixing valve is worn out and needs replacing. The supply and return pipes to underfloor manifold are 28mm and there seems to be a huge variety of replacement valves with varying price tags. Can anybody recommend a decent valve that will do its job without being overly complicated.
    3. There are two pumps one the system. One on the flow to underfloor heating, and one on the return from the hot water cylinder. I noticed this week that when the cylinder was being heated, the hot water was being sucked through the underfloor pipes in reverse (i.e. in through return manifold and out through flow manifold). This can't be helping the situation. I assume that the underfloor heating should be separate to the hot water coil? Any suggestions?
    Thanks in advance of any replies.

    You'll need a buffer tank correctly sized for your wood burning boiler. I'd also have the oil linked into this. Then this buffer heats the house. This would be very expensive though.
    If I were you, I'd upgrade the insulation in your attic and walls, if you've money to spare is also fit a new condensing boiler and have your controls looked at too. But insulation is critical in having an efficient underfloor heating system


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    #3
    Bornagainbiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bornagainbiker


    Hi Dpt1979,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I have upgraded my insulation as well, as a background project. I got the cavity walls pumped two years ago (made no difference to oil usage though) and I have just had 300mm cellulose blown into the attic space. House was built circa 2002.

    My plan is to put Gasifier Boiler and two 1000L storage tanks into the garage and then feed off this to supply the heating and domestic hot water. I have picked up demo model gasifier + tanks + fittings at a very reasonable price locally. Local supply of firewood.

    I see what you mean about connecting the oil to the buffer system as a backup. Similar situation though, should I use non-return valves to keep the oil and gasifier systems separate to each other? Would it be difficult to get either the gasifier or oil boiler to heat the house first before diverting to the buffer tanks?

    My preference is to move away from total dependence on oil if I can, as the oil barons have gotton enough out of me over the past 12 years!!!


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    #4
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,735 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Bornagainbiker wrote: »
    Hi Dpt1979,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I have upgraded my insulation as well, as a background project. I got the cavity walls pumped two years ago (made no difference to oil usage though) and I have just had 300mm cellulose blown into the attic space. House was built circa 2002.

    My plan is to put Gasifier Boiler and two 1000L storage tanks into the garage and then feed off this to supply the heating and domestic hot water. I have picked up demo model gasifier + tanks + fittings at a very reasonable price locally. Local supply of firewood.

    I see what you mean about connecting the oil to the buffer system as a backup. Similar situation though, should I use non-return valves to keep the oil and gasifier systems separate to each other? Would it be difficult to get either the gasifier or oil boiler to heat the house first before diverting to the buffer tanks?

    My preference is to move away from total dependence on oil if I can, as the oil barons have gotton enough out of me over the past 12 years!!!

    Non return valves are the least of your worries I'm afraid. You'll really have to get a plumber to design this for you as its potentially extremely dangerous if done wrong.


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    #5
    Bornagainbiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bornagainbiker


    Well to be honest, most of the problems with the current system are actually within the house (the mixing valve and pumps etc).

    The people that I am buying the gasifier equipment are going to install that for me in the garage, and I just have to bring the supply to the house via insulated underground piping (Calpex or similar). They don't do general remedial works to existing systems.

    I think most of my problems are with controls (or lack of) and trying to keep the hot water cylinder separate from the underfloor heating manifold.

    I appreciate your advice that this can be a dangerous set-up if done wrong. I presume you are concerned that the hot water needs expansion capacity?


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    #6
    Jack180570
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭Jack180570


    Bornagainbiker wrote: »
    Hi Dpt1979,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I have upgraded my insulation as well, as a background project. I got the cavity walls pumped two years ago (made no difference to oil usage though) and I have just had 300mm cellulose blown into the attic space. House was built circa 2002.

    My plan is to put Gasifier Boiler and two 1000L storage tanks into the garage and then feed off this to supply the heating and domestic hot water. I have picked up demo model gasifier + tanks + fittings at a very reasonable price locally. Local supply of firewood.

    I see what you mean about connecting the oil to the buffer system as a backup. Similar situation though, should I use non-return valves to keep the oil and gasifier systems separate to each other? Would it be difficult to get either the gasifier or oil boiler to heat the house first before diverting to the buffer tanks?

    My preference is to move away from total dependence on oil if I can, as the oil barons have gotton enough out of me over the past 12 years!!!

    If you size the gasifier and buffer tanks correctly then you will have zero need for backup system. As already stated, you need professional advice as each situation is unique.
    A brother of mine is heating c.3000sq ft house with 40kw gasifier and no backup, buying WFQA Certified Firewood at 4.75 cents per kWh and it costs around 900e/ year in fuel.


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    #7
    Bornagainbiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bornagainbiker


    Thanks Jack180570,

    The boiler is a 31Kw boiler and the company that I am buying it from are going to do the install as far as supply to the house.

    Glad to hear that somebody else is successfully using the system without the need for oil. That's what I hope to achieve too! I will be sourcing the wood locally, but through properly managed forestry agency.


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    #8
    manaboutdog
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭manaboutdog


    Hi Bornagainbiker & Jack,

    I'm looking at heating a house via this method also and will be purchasing the gear in the next 4/6 weeks. Could you let me know the brands of boiler you have experience of and whether you'd recommend them?

    Thanks
    M


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    #9
    Jack180570
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭Jack180570


    manaboutdog wrote: »
    Hi Bornagainbiker & Jack,

    I'm looking at heating a house via this method also and will be purchasing the gear in the next 4/6 weeks. Could you let me know the brands of boiler you have experience of and whether you'd recommend them?

    Thanks
    M

    Hi M... if you are down around Abbeyfeale you are welcome to call and talk to my brother about the system he installed and using with the last 18mths or so... it's a relatively basic low cost system but if I was going to install such a system I would like to visit someone who has it installed and operating it for a while...


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    #10
    Bornagainbiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bornagainbiker


    Hi Manaboutdog,

    I haven't got mine up and running yet, but the boiler is a MAGA. I think it is a version of the Attack Boiler, but with a different badge. It will be connected to two 1000L buffer tanks. I have seen it in action and it is pretty impressive.

    I don't have a plumbing/heating background so I can't really recommend any brand over another.

    I'm buying mine fairly locally, so I'm happy to have the back-up nearby, should it be required. I know some people on boards have purchased from up north or from Poland. (Kotly.com is a polish distributor).

    Having spent a lot of time researching (including Boards.ie) I found that Atmos, Attack and ETA seem to be the ones that come up most often.

    I'll have my one up and running as soon as the wife is up to digging the 20 metre trench from the garage to the house.:)


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    #11
    jamie2000
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭jamie2000


    Bornagainbiker wrote: »
    Hi Manaboutdog,

    I haven't got mine up and running yet, but the boiler is a MAGA. I think it is a version of the Attack Boiler, but with a different badge. It will be connected to two 1000L buffer tanks. I have seen it in action and it is pretty impressive.

    I don't have a plumbing/heating background so I can't really recommend any brand over another.

    I'm buying mine fairly locally, so I'm happy to have the back-up nearby, should it be required. I know some people on boards have purchased from up north or from Poland. (Kotly.com is a polish distributor).

    Having spent a lot of time researching (including Boards.ie) I found that Atmos, Attack and ETA seem to be the ones that come up most often.

    I'll have my one up and running as soon as the wife is up to digging the 20 metre trench from the garage to the house.:)

    Hi installed a gasification boiler system with the 2000 ltr buffer tank oil boiler linked in if I need it.its a good system but you use a lot of timber and the timber has to be 25 % moisture level or lower.oil prices at the moment are very low.


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    #12
    Bornagainbiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bornagainbiker


    Jamie2000,

    Adding the oil boiler to the system seems to be the way alright? I'm gonna ask the gasifier installers if they will move and hook up the oil boiler as well.

    How much wood would you typically use in a season/year?

    I'm expecting to go through about 25 cubic metres of roundwood, which I think equates to about 45 cubic metres when split.

    Oil is cheaper at the moment, which is why I am taking my time with the installation. At the moment I'd say oil = timber, but for how long?


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    #13
    jamie2000
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭jamie2000


    Bornagainbiker wrote: »
    Jamie2000,

    Adding the oil boiler to the system seems to be the way alright? I'm gonna ask the gasifier installers if they will move and hook up the oil boiler as well.

    How much wood would you typically use in a season/year?

    I'm expecting to go through about 25 cubic metres of roundwood, which I think equates to about 45 cubic metres when split.

    Oil is cheaper at the moment, which is why I am taking my time with the installation. At the moment I'd say oil = timber, but for how long?

    I have only one winter done so iam still learning but I would say about 30 cubic meters of split timber would cover you but it must be dry enough it's a pain if the timber is too wet.its a great system if your willing to but the time into getting timber work done.good insulation is a must.its amazing the heat those gasification boilers run at a buffer tank In my eyes has to be used.i dealt with shs renewables for most of bits used very good to deal with and able to give good sound advice


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    #14
    Bornagainbiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Bornagainbiker


    Hi Jamie,

    I'm dealing with SHS Renewables too!! Yes, decent people and local too.

    Do you have your buffers far from the house?

    Did you use a stainless steel flue or did you build one for the gasifier?

    I don't mind the work involved with the timber, as I'm used to cutting and footing turf every year. I'm pre-empting that the turf cutting will be stopped one of these years so I want to be ready for that eventuality, hence the changeover to timber solid fuel.


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    #15
    manaboutdog
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭manaboutdog


    Jack180570 wrote: »
    Hi M... if you are down around Abbeyfeale you are welcome to call and talk to my brother about the system he installed and using with the last 18mths or so... it's a relatively basic low cost system but if I was going to install such a system I would like to visit someone who has it installed and operating it for a while...

    Hi Jack,
    As it happens I'm in West Limerick too, so not too far away. I'd really like to see a system up and running. I'll send you a pm if that's ok.
    Thanks again,
    Manaboutdog


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    #16
    jamie2000
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭jamie2000


    Bornagainbiker wrote: »
    Hi Jamie,

    I'm dealing with SHS Renewables too!! Yes, decent people and local too.

    Do you have your buffers far from the house?

    Did you use a stainless steel flue or did you build one for the gasifier?

    I don't mind the work involved with the timber, as I'm used to cutting and footing turf every year. I'm pre-empting that the turf cutting will be stopped one of these years so I want to be ready for that eventuality, hence the changeover to timber solid fuel.

    I have one 2000 litre buffer tank it's about twenty meters from the hot press I used the underground insulated pipe very good but expensive.i built my own flue from dairy wall 8 inch stainless pipe and steel cladded with insulation between them.a good draught is very important.in my first year with it dry timber is the main one and to keep a supply of it.


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