Irish Scrum Halfs

redmca · 26-11-2007 11:20am #1

It has long been my opinion that Ireland have consistently had a weakness at scrum-half position when compared with other nations.

If you look back over the past 30 years or more and look at the Welsh SHs, they have generally been bigger, faster, and far more than merely a link between the pack and the back line. Eg Gareth Edwards, Terry Holmes, and more recently Rob Howley and Dwane Peele. Not to mention the southern hemisphere SHs ..........

Contrast this with our SHs. I can't recall an Irish SH with a serious attacking threat since Colin Patterson, a generation ago (maybe Michael Bradley to an extent, but then he couldn't pass!!!).
I feel part of the root of this is a sort of cultural bias of "good" young players to opt for elsewhere in the backs, and the "small guy" gets steered towards the SH position.

In my opinion, of the current players, Gordon Darcy could have been an outstanding SH if he had been steered that way in the past, good hands, good feet, good acceleration, teak tough, and sure to pose a threat to defenses in his own rite.

Am I wrong?? I welcome comments of others

tHE vAGGABOND · 26-11-2007 11:49am

We did have a scrum half like that, Ciaran Scally, who was on the same rock school team as O'Driscoll and Cullen [et al] - and got capped at 19 or 20 and really was a potential superstar [IMHO] but he ****ed his knee soonafter and had to quit the game..

Players like that do indeed only come around once in a generation, and we had one, but he got injured! Alas, its a physical game, and that happens sometimes!

TBH Agree with the theory behind your post, that we have been weak at 9 for many years. I do think your idea of forcing good players from other positions to play there, for the sake of it, is insane. Lets force Mick O'Driscoll to play as prop, as he is a crap second row, and we have no props as we are at it

buck65 · 26-11-2007 11:59am

I think Peter Stringer is a great SH. Sorry guys but Peter (apart from his recent disaster in France - let's remember he wasn't alone, And O Driscoll got him dropped) has had some great days in an Irish shirt, and is probably our most successful SH ever.
Eoin Reddan is a class act also and will be world class soon.
Ok Leinster lads on yere marks....

Eoin · 26-11-2007 11:59am

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

We did have a scrum half like that, Ciaran Scally, who was on the same rock school team as O'Driscoll and Cullen [et al] - and got capped at 19 or 20 and really was a potential superstar [IMHO] but he ****ed his knee soonafter and had to quit the game..

Players like that do indeed only come around once in a generation, and we had one, but he got injured! Alas, its a physical game, and that happens sometimes!

TBH Agree with the theory behind your post, that we have been weak at 9 for many years. I do think your idea of forcing good players from other positions to play there, for the sake of it, is insane. Lets force Mick O'Driscoll to play as prop, as he is a crap second row, and we have no props as we are at it

Yeah, I remember Scally, he really was a good prospect.

I don't think the OP is talking about moving international players now, but more if they had been encouraged in their youth.

daveirl · 26-11-2007 12:02pm

This post has been deleted.

Amz · 26-11-2007 12:20pm

buck65 wrote: »

I think Peter Stringer is a great SH. Sorry guys but Peter (apart from his recent disaster in France - let's remember he wasn't alone, And O Driscoll got him dropped) has had some great days in an Irish shirt, and is probably our most successful SH ever.

It's funny, I've only heard that about O'Driscoll from Munster fans. Ye need to get over that persecution complex some day, it's not a healthy way to live.

Stringer did have good days, but then he had a great team that was helping him look good. Now that other areas of the team are faltering his shortcomings are being exposed more readily. He hasn't been at his best for a few seasons now, particularly in the Irish shirt. Maybe he, like O'Gara, lifts his game for Munster games, because he's one of the gold boys and if he, like O'Gara, plays crap they're still exalted and praised to high heaven. Now, anyone can play better and be more cocky if they know that every action/inaction will earn them praise and errors etc. will be blamed on the opposition or bad refereeing.

toomevara · 26-11-2007 1:06pm

Scrum halves, out halves, the perennial problem of Irish rugby...what is the issue? Why cant we churn em out like wales/england/ france...is the problem at school boy level? anyone any insight...I just can't see anyone coming up to fill o'Gara's shoes...in terms of genuine international playmakers the outlook for Irish rugby is very bleak indeed....

zAbbo · 26-11-2007 1:14pm

Wales have Gareth Cooper, Dwayne Peel and Mike Philips.
Scotland have Mike Blair, Chris Cusuiter & Rory Lawson.
England have Andy Gomarsall, Harry Ellis and maybe Peter Richards

All of this countries have 3 decent scrum halves who are better than Peter Stringer.

tHE vAGGABOND · 26-11-2007 2:15pm

a case of the 'grass is greener' Zabbo

For one, I think Ellis is rubbish, I dont think he would displace Boss in Ulster or Stringer down in Munster..

Anyway, Redden is the Ireland number 9 - and I hope he stays there for a while

With Redden, Stringer and Boss we are not THAT badly off

zAbbo · 26-11-2007 2:23pm

Ellis's form before injury made him a massive blow for Englands RWC bid, I was off a similar opinion of him, but he was playing well.

We're not badly off with Reddan, Stringer and Boss, but we're not as good as Wales or Scotland in that department.

For instance I don't think Boss or Stringer offer gamechanging options from the bench, unlike Peel/Philips or Cusuiter/Blair.

toomevara · 26-11-2007 2:37pm

zabbo wrote: »

For instance I don't think Boss or Stringer offer gamechanging options from the bench, unlike Peel/Philips or Cusuiter/Blair.

Spot on, and Boss has been appalling for Ulster of late, poor service, bad kicking options and utterly telegraphed 'break' with a tendancy to turn ball over in contact....

tHE vAGGABOND · 26-11-2007 2:43pm

Im not a huge fan of boss, but we have no one else for that 3rd spot right now. But to be fair, the entire Ulster squad seem to have lost form, not just one or two of them..

Lets hope a new coach sorts it out, the win on Friday night go some way to that..

IFX · 26-11-2007 5:18pm

redmca wrote: »

It has long been my opinion that Ireland have consistently had a weakness at scrum-half position when compared with other nations.

If you look back over the past 30 years or more and look at the Welsh SHs, they have generally been bigger, faster, and far more than merely a link between the pack and the back line. Eg Gareth Edwards, Terry Holmes, and more recently Rob Howley and Dwane Peele. Not to mention the southern hemisphere SHs ..........

Contrast this with our SHs. I can't recall an Irish SH with a serious attacking threat since Colin Patterson, a generation ago (maybe Michael Bradley to an extent, but then he couldn't pass!!!).
I feel part of the root of this is a sort of cultural bias of "good" young players to opt for elsewhere in the backs, and the "small guy" gets steered towards the SH position.

In my opinion, of the current players, Gordon Darcy could have been an outstanding SH if he had been steered that way in the past, good hands, good feet, good acceleration, teak tough, and sure to pose a threat to defenses in his own rite.

Am I wrong?? I welcome comments of others

We don't put enough emphasis on the specialist skills to be a good scrum half at the young ages. Most coaches have never played there. The same happens with props.

You are probably right that some players like D'Arcy or Murphy etc would have the skill to play there but in Ireland if you are good, you don't want to play scrum half.

We treat it as a novetly position for the small bloke.

Stev_o · 26-11-2007 6:05pm

toomevara wrote: »

Scrum halves, out halves, the perennial problem of Irish rugby...what is the issue? Why cant we churn em out like wales/england/ france...is the problem at school boy level? anyone any insight...I just can't see anyone coming up to fill o'Gara's shoes...in terms of genuine international playmakers the outlook for Irish rugby is very bleak indeed....

Well its not helping that the 4 provinces have looked for over sea's players to cover these slots. Warick at Munster, Donelly at Connaught, Contepomi with Leinster. Now given Ulster have seen sense and let Paddy Wallace by OH but for the love of god the boy is a centre. Sexton is promising but it doesnt help that Leinster dont let him even have the kicking duties when he's playing Magners when Phill is playing.

I dunno it seems like the most unwanted position by far in Irish rugby at the moment hopefully this will change. And for the love of god can we produce at decent scrum half's. Willis for Leinster doesnt have a clue what to do i dont see what that academy see's in him, he needs to spend more time in the AIL

Sandwich · 26-11-2007 7:51pm

Agree the standard has generally been poor.

Michael Bradley was not even a good attacking threat.

Hard to know about Scally. He was good in school and did seem to have potential - but converting that to top international class is another story. How many great schoolboys have we seen make little or no impression as internationals. I was hopeful for Scally being the real thing at the time, but as far as I remember in the few chances he got, he wasnt exactly phenomenal.

Too young to have seen Paterson, but reckon that the finest we have had since then, was certainly Rob Saunders. Yes, i know the missed touched kick against Aus....
But,
While it was a mistake making him captain, and he did come accross as a bit of an arrogant pup; his passing was really splendid - quicker than Stringer I would say, and certainly better to pass in a tight space or under pressure. He was also lively ball in hand, tackled well, had a very high work rate and supported runners well in loose play.

Lured from rugby to make his fortune as an engineer in London I think.

daveharnett · 28-11-2007 3:05pm

toomevara wrote: »

Spot on, and Boss has been appalling for Ulster of late, poor service, bad kicking options and utterly telegraphed 'break' with a tendancy to turn ball over in contact....

Don't get me started on this guy. How can a scrumhalf not be able to pass off the ground!? He NEVER makes a pass from the ruck without taking 2 steps first, which inevitabley gets his backs into trouble.

Shan75 · 29-11-2007 2:26am

Stringer is getting worse and slower by the day and was never brilliant anyway.He is far more interested in trying to annoy refs now than pass the ball.He now only looks decent against rubbish opposition when under no pressure.This nonsense about O'Driscoll getting him dropped is silly.He was dropped for a better player.Reddan looks good and is getting better all the time.I think he could certainly be considered in the same league as Peel though not as good as him yet.I do agree it has been a weak area for us long term.Don't forget we even had Chris Saverimutto capped a number of times and he was average at best.I would also like to say that the best scrum half in the world right now in my opinion is Du Preez from South Africa.

shoutman · 29-11-2007 3:03am

Undoubtedly Du Preez is world class and will go down as one of the best ever. He has it all!

As for Ciaran Scally, I think he was probably the only ever Scrum Half Ireland had who was over 6ft, great player, was class in schools rugby and was definately going to be better then Stringer imo if his knee held up.

As said before Boss is no good, his passing is atrocious, how a professional scrum half does not know how to properly pass is beyong me. Everyone knows that taking steps with the ball before passing is a bad thing.
Fair enough coming out of the pocket behind the ruck to maybe have a snipe if anything is on is grand but he does it every f'''in time. He's useless. As for Stringer I don't fancy him much, he is very one dynamic imo, he's a good passer and can put in the odd kick but poses no attacking threat.

daveirl · 29-11-2007 10:51am

This post has been deleted.

tHE vAGGABOND · 29-11-2007 11:16am

I heard a great story from a random english bloke over at the world cup..

Eddie is watching wasps win the european cup a couple of seasons ago. Afterwards he goes and meets the teams and says a few hellos. I assume he would know lots of them from lions and baba's work, let alone post match meals etc..

He goes up to Dellaglio <sp?>, and says "that was a great win, you guys have a brilliant team and really deserve it"

All Dellalio <sp?> says back is, "yea, we have a world class scrum half, its all down to him" and he then walks away

Made me laugh my ass off.. :cool:

daveirl · 29-11-2007 11:41am

This post has been deleted.

zAbbo · 29-11-2007 11:44am

Dawson was SH in 03/04 ? Reddan was SH last year when they win it though.

daveirl · 29-11-2007 12:08pm

This post has been deleted.

redmca · 29-11-2007 12:49pm

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Howley - Best SH in the 6 nations over the last 10 years.
Only injuries let Dawson et al in as the Lions SH.

Teg Veece · 29-11-2007 1:36pm

Amz wrote:

Now, anyone can play better and be more cocky if they know that every action/inaction will earn them praise and errors etc. will be blamed on the opposition or bad refereeing.

I would have thought that that was the perfect recipe for making them play worse...

katiemac · 01-12-2007 2:30pm

Donal Canniffe played scrum half for the famous Munster team that beat the All Blacks at Thomond Park.
He played for Lansdowne in Dublin and was also capped for Ireland.

Tony Doyle played for Greystones and Ireland. He was a decent sh.

Who remembers John Robbie? He was a very good scrum half until his ankle was broke by an All Black flanker in an international against Ireland at Lansdowne.
Robbie was your typical sh. Quick, fast accurate pass, good kicker and breaker.

He emigrated to South Africa where he became the first overseas player to play for Transvaal. He also captained Transvaal. He now works as a radio presenter in SA.

Goodluck2me · 02-12-2007 2:03am

Cillian Willis only for injuries would have been playing for Leinster 3 seasons ago, by far an away the best Scrum half in Ireland at underage level, and very level headed too. I would imagine he will be in the Irish set up within 2 years, was head an shoulders the best player of that year inc Kearney etc who dont have a patch on him.
There was a guy down in Munster Duncan Williams too who was apparently very good too although I havent heard much of him since.

il gatto · 02-12-2007 8:10am

That story about Dallaglio is one I've heard before, but I didn't hear a match specified. I just hear LD told Eddie he was world class and that he should keep an eye on his progress.
Speaking of Dallaglio, he was on Top Gear last week and he seems like a really nice guy. I have alot of respect for the guy.
Stringer has served Munster and Ireland very well for years and I don't think he deserves alot of the flak. He was the best we had and he used whatever skills and strenght he had to the best of his ability. He always gave 100%. Fair dues to him. As for being mouthy,well everyone praised Pichot for his style of leadership as well as his skill (his style being mouthy).
Stringer won't let Reddan take his spot without a fight. Can only be good for Irish rugby to have two good scrum halves battling for one spot.

toomevara · 02-12-2007 12:12pm

il gatto wrote: »

Stringer won't let Reddan take his spot without a fight. Can only be good for Irish rugby to have two good scrum halves battling for one spot.

Reddan excellent (again) for Wasps yesterday in their demolition of Newcastle Falcons. Managed a try yet again. No question that he is the scrum half with the most complete game of all the irish contenders. He's also got form on his side. Seen nothing from Stringer ( a great servant of Irish and munster rugby but woefully one dimensional) in Heineken or Magners that would trouble him. Did like the look of Willis though, one to watch.

LeeroyJones · 03-12-2007 8:59pm

for me Reddan should be sub scrum half for the Lions next tour if all stays as is with Peel first choice. with regards Stringer i think he has a sweet pass, organises his pack well and seems to have a 6th sense with O'Gara. However at a breakdown every backrow forward knows its going to O'Gara so they have him lined up. With regards Boss/Reddan the opposition aren't so sure as occasionally they go themselves or take a box-kick etc-ie providing more options. by the way-yes i remember The HC Final but that was a flash in the pan. in fact it only highlights how rarely Stringer doesn't pass coz Betsen and Bobo were caught out.

Another scrum-half we produced was Conor McGuinness, i think it was a persistant foot/toe injury which forced him into early retirement.

Stev_o · 03-12-2007 9:11pm

LeeroyJones wrote: »

by the way-yes i remember The HC Final but that was a flash in the pan. in fact it only highlights how rarely Stringer doesn't pass coz Betsen and Bobo were caught out.

That and the fact that Reddans try in last years final was a hell of alot better :P

dc69 · 03-12-2007 11:06pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

Cillian Willis only for injuries would have been playing for Leinster 3 seasons ago, by far an away the best Scrum half in Ireland at underage level, and very level headed too. I would imagine he will be in the Irish set up within 2 years, was head an shoulders the best player of that year inc Kearney etc who dont have a patch on him.
There was a guy down in Munster Duncan Williams too who was apparently very good too although I havent heard much of him since.

are you taking the piss? he has single handedly nearly cost leinster their last 2 matches untill he was substituted for keane,the guy cant even pass properly(suicide passes),maybe he was good at underage but it looks like the big time(magners league lol) may be a step too far for him,no joke!

High&Low · 04-12-2007 10:14am

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think Leo Cullen might argue with you there, as may O'Kelly, and I am not just talking about last Friday.

However he is the best second row in Munster at the moment, with POC being injured of O'Callaghan off form...

remus808 · 04-12-2007 12:00pm

LeeroyJones wrote: »

occasionally they take a box-kick etc-ie providing more options

Just to point out, Stringer is a fantastic kicker of the ball..

toomevara · 04-12-2007 8:30pm

karmabass wrote: »

Just to point out, Stringer is a fantastic kicker of the ball..

I think 'fantastic' is stretching it a bit...but he's far from the worst in the world.

hardCopy · 06-12-2007 2:44pm

dc69 wrote: »

are you taking the piss? he has single handedly nearly cost leinster their last 2 matches untill he was substituted for keane,the guy cant even pass properly(suicide passes),maybe he was good at underage but it looks like the big time(magners league lol) may be a step too far for him,no joke!

He also let the forwards hold on to the ball for far too long in the first half against Munster resulting in a turnover. Leinster should have gotten a try shortly before half time if they had spread the ball 1 or 2 phases earlier.

Maybe I'm being unfair and he was instructed to keep it tight at all costs but he really should have gotten rid of it as it was obvious at that stage that the pack were struggling to retain the ball in the later phases.

Goodluck2me · 11-12-2007 9:53pm

dc69 wrote: »

,the guy cant even pass properly(suicide passes),!

Lol

Luckycharm · 12-12-2007 2:56pm

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Another scrum-half we produced was Conor McGuinness, i think it was a persistant foot/toe injury which forced him into early retirement.

Yep mcguinness was excellent retired very young due to foot injury ironically he ended up working in the same office as Ciaran Scally

If you remember the Wavin ad with Hickie - he is the scrumhalf in that ad

shmaido · 12-12-2007 6:55pm

Luckycharm wrote: »

Yep mcguinness was excellent retired very young due to foot injury ironically he ended up working in the same office as Ciaran Scally If you remember the Wavin ad with Hickie - he is the scrumhalf in that ad

Met that guy back in 1998, we were on a lads-post leaving cert holiday/2 week pissup, and lo and behold who was staying in the same holiday complex- Conner McGuiness and a few of his mates, great laugh all together, he was a good guy and a great player. At the time he was just recouping from something like his 6th operation on the toe. The writing was on the wall at that stage and he was seeing it too, great shame. Between himself and Scally Ireland missed out on two (world?) class SH's, really unlucky.

Irish Scrum Halfs

Comments