What happened the Dublin-Cork Business Express??

cgcsb · 23-01-2015 3:50pm #1

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-rail-planning-dublincork-business-express-29500699.html

Remember this from 2013, we were promised a business express service with a lower journey time by mid 2014. Of course the whole union dispute may have derailed(excuse my inner journalist) any proposed improvements to service.

If we had such a service, what kind of journey times would we see? perhaps 2:15? less even? I do hope that we get such a service in the short term, it'd really get people out of cars for Dublin-Cork journeys.

end of the road · 23-01-2015 4:06pm

i doubt the unions had anything to do with it. maybe IE thought that craming people into an ICR like industrial chickens on a "business" express probably wasn't a good idea. but i don't know. as for journey times, god knows.

LXFlyer · 23-01-2015 4:35pm

That article did not specify a date.

Any improvement in journey time is dependent upon getting funding to upgrade the permanent way where necessary. In case you've not noticed, funding is something IE is somewhat short of right now.

I'd say 2:20 would be a realistic target and 2:15 a bonus.

At present the 06:00 and 07:00 ex-Cork and 15:00, 16:00 and 17:00 ex-Dublin are all timetabled for 2:30.

Jamie2k9 · 23-01-2015 4:52pm

That article did not specify a date.

Any improvement in journey time is dependent upon getting funding to upgrade the permanent way where necessary. In case you've not noticed, funding is something IE is somewhat short of right now.

I'd say 2:20 would be a realistic target and 2:15 a bonus.

At present the 06:00 and 07:00 ex-Cork and 15:00, 16:00 and 17:00 ex-Dublin are all timetabled for 2:3

2h10 and 2h15m is very doable especially with the 22's.

Was on the 15.00 (22) on Monday and the journey could of being completed in 2h15m but took 2h23m because of additional stopping waiting for schedule to catch up and it's timetabled for 2h30m. That was with 2 TSR's in place one which is ridiculous north of Charleville. Would love to know what the issue is there!

On the same day the 17.00 could of completed the same journey in 2h20m and not 2h30m.

cgcsb · 23-01-2015 5:11pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

On the same day the 17.00 could of completed the same journey in 2h20m and not 2h30m.

Do you mean including stops?

Jamie2k9 · 23-01-2015 5:18pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Do you mean including stops?

Yes, with it's current stops.

SpaceTime · 23-01-2015 5:20pm

They'd need new power cars for the MK4... Might be funding under some EU stimulus programme tho.

LXFlyer · 23-01-2015 5:29pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

They'd need new power cars for the MK4... Might be funding under some EU stimulus programme tho.

No they wouldn't - the existing locomotive and rolling stock is perfectly adequate.

The issue is the permanent way.

The current running times allow for additional temporary speed restrictions where necessary, and as such deliver reliable journey times. It is always better to err on the side of caution, rather than advertise times that depending on the works in progress could meN trains regularly arriving late.

I believe that there may be a programme of infrastructure works planned for 2015 on the line that will assist in achieving better journey times.

cgcsb · 23-01-2015 5:29pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes, with it's current stops.

That's impressive. So then surely an express service, with no stops could offer a very attractive journey time, if timetabled right. Without any huge infrastructure improvements.

Jamie2k9 · 23-01-2015 5:51pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That's impressive. So then surely an express service, with no stops could offer a very attractive journey time, if timetabled right. Without any huge infrastructure improvements.

Not sure removing those stops would benefit, Limerick J is 50mph through, should really be 80 at least to be worth anything and while I don't know about Mallow I suspect it's pretty slow so not worth it.

The 17.00 (Cork), 17.05 (Tralee) and 17.25 (Limerick) need to be looked at and how to deliver better times as currently the 17.05 and 17.25 serve Ballybrophy, Templemore and Thurles which I really can't see being necessary bar possibly Thurles.

17.00 Mallow-Cork
17.05 Limerick J-Charleville, Mallow and onto Tralee
17.25 Ballybrophy, Templemore, Thurles, Limerick

A limited express to Portlaosie should run to free up the 17.25 serving Newbridge-Portlaosie.

I'm sure they may be room to drop the 17.25 from 5 to 4 coaches or even 3 and compensate for the limited stop to Portlaoise service as I suspect the majority of the 17.25 loadings are for Kildare, Portarlington and Portlaoise. This is a problem with a lot of services as commuters don't want to go on such slow services and having a service like this could really cut stops from the 17.30 Galway and 17.35 Waterford and cut down on some capacity possibly to.

They'd need new power cars for the MK4... Might be funding under some EU stimulus programme tho.

Bar one part of Hazelhatch-Newbridge as soon as the line is renewed it should be raised from 90 to 100 which would help a lot.

end of the road · 23-01-2015 6:33pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The 17.00 (Cork), 17.05 (Tralee) and 17.25 (Limerick) need to be looked at and how to deliver better times as currently the 17.05 and 17.25 serve Ballybrophy, Templemore and Thurles which I really can't see being necessary bar possibly Thurles.

17.00 Mallow-Cork
17.05 Limerick J-Charleville, Mallow and onto Tralee
17.25 Ballybrophy, Templemore, Thurles, Limerick

A limited express to Portlaosie should run to free up the 17.25 serving Newbridge-Portlaosie.

I'm sure they may be room to drop the 17.25 from 5 to 4 coaches or even 3 and compensate for the limited stop to Portlaoise service as I suspect the majority of the 17.25 loadings are for Kildare, Portarlington and Portlaoise. This is a problem with a lot of services as commuters don't want to go on such slow services and having a service like this could really cut stops from the 17.30 Galway and 17.35 Waterford and cut down on some capacity possibly to.

that was along the lines of what i suggested a few times before. that the long distance trains should just serve the stations on their branches with an enhanced commuter service serving stations within the suburban and outer suburban area. somewhere like portlaoise or kildare could be an interchange maybe. of course its not as simple to do as made out but no harm at least looking at it for the future

SpaceTime · 23-01-2015 6:50pm

lxflyer wrote: »

No they wouldn't - the existing locomotive and rolling stock is perfectly adequate.

The issue is the permanent way.

The current running times allow for additional temporary speed restrictions where necessary, and as such deliver reliable journey times. It is always better to err on the side of caution, rather than advertise times that depending on the works in progress could meN trains regularly arriving late.

I believe that there may be a programme of infrastructure works planned for 2015 on the line that will assist in achieving better journey times.

I thought they're shredding the tracks?

LXFlyer · 23-01-2015 6:52pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I thought they're shredding the tracks?

With a proper track renewal the 201s and Mark 4 coaches can deliver the required journey times.

end of the road · 23-01-2015 7:08pm

lxflyer wrote: »

With a proper track renewal the 201s and Mark 4 coaches can deliver the required journey times.

will such renewals mean the track being able to take the weight of the 201s for long periods? or will they continue to shread the tracks?

n97 mini · 23-01-2015 9:33pm

If there's going to be a Dublin Cork Business train it needs to be in Cork well before 9am. Currently the earliest arrives at 9.35.

LXFlyer · 23-01-2015 9:48pm

It would be in the direction of main traffic flow - to Dublin in the morning and from Dublin in the evening.

That market is by far the greater.

n97 mini · 23-01-2015 10:12pm

I'm sure it is the main direction, but until a train arrives before 9am people not many people will use it for business, and I'd be sure there is some demand.

I myself would have had a use for such a service a few years ago.

L1011 · 23-01-2015 10:27pm

Arriving before 9 and car hire at the station - IE could franchise Hertz or Enterprise and have a very small number of cars - and I'd have used it extensively. Actually suspect a lot of people in my current employer would still do so, as we've offices in both cities.

LXFlyer · 23-01-2015 10:34pm

It would still mean adding another return working on the route to balance the sets (21:20) which I suspect at the moment isn't on the cards.

Jamie2k9 · 23-01-2015 10:36pm

lxflyer wrote: »

It would still mean adding another return working on the route to balance the sets (21:20) which I suspect at the moment isn't on the cards.

They could operate a 06.30 service instead of 07.00 ex Heuston and strike a good balance. Yes it's not on the hour however the morning departures from Cork don't follow the general timetable either.

that was along the lines of what i suggested a few times before. that the long distance trains should just serve the stations on their branches with an enhanced commuter service serving stations within the suburban and outer suburban area. somewhere like portlaoise or kildare could be an interchange maybe. of course its not as simple to do as made out but no harm at least looking at it for the future

Don't see it as a bad thing that some server commuter stations but not all however like the 18.10 service to Portlaoise they need similar before 18.00.

Carawaystick · 24-01-2015 2:10am

Can IÉ get you from Belfast to Dublin before 9am?

You can get from Clarke to Connolly before the first train leaves Heuston for Kent...

LXFlyer · 24-01-2015 3:54am

First enterprise arrives at Connolly at 09:04.

SpaceTime · 24-01-2015 12:32pm

I think CIE may still have a notion that people only come up from "Down the Country" to Dublin (which they refer to as The City).

They possibly don't realise that there are businesses located in other cities.

Also historically many public bodies didn't start work until 9:30

foggy_lad · 24-01-2015 4:27pm

cgcsb wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irish-rail-planning-dublincork-business-express-29500699.html

Remember this from 2013, we were promised a business express service with a lower journey time by mid 2014. Of course the whole union dispute may have derailed(excuse my inner journalist) any proposed improvements to service.

If we had such a service, what kind of journey times would we see? perhaps 2:15? less even? I do hope that we get such a service in the short term, it'd really get people out of cars for Dublin-Cork journeys.

Is there a sustained market for such relatively high costing services? I know of all the extra benefits of being able to get breakfast and walk around on the Mk4's but considering the cost of providing the service so early and not having any real information about expected passenger numbers then it is a gamble which IE would probably be better off not taking in this time of austerity and rationalisation.

I do know that some people value a few hours of their time highly and that is why some companies will spend the extra on the train but is there enough to pay for a dedicated "express" Dublin-Cork or Cork-Dublin service?

laoisfan · 26-01-2015 4:56pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The 17.00 (Cork), 17.05 (Tralee) and 17.25 (Limerick) need to be looked at and how to deliver better times as currently the 17.05 and 17.25 serve Ballybrophy, Templemore and Thurles which I really can't see being necessary bar possibly Thurles.

I can't speak for Templemore but a lot of people get the 17:05 to get off at Ballybrophy. If any thing a case could be made to remove Ballybrophy from the 17:25. If I am unable to make the 17:05 I tend to hold back for the 18:00 Cork train because it is more comfortable and it stops at Ballybrophy as it's first stop not too long after the 17:25 does.

coylemj · 26-01-2015 5:13pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think CIE may still have a notion that people only come up from "Down the Country" to Dublin (which they refer to as The City).

They possibly don't realise that there are businesses located in other cities.

The higher cost of housing in Dublin means that early morning commuting is mainly into Dublin, similar to the inward flow of people into London in the mornings. Comparatively few people live in a major city and commute to a smaller town to work.

oceanfroggie · 26-01-2015 5:44pm

25 years ago the Dublin-Cork early morning and evening express trains at least had a decent business service with proper table service food from a reasonable menu. You could get breakfast. Now just disgusting junk food from a trolly. Ireland is the only county in Europe that now does not have a proper business class rail service between major cities. I stopped using trains for work because the on board experience is so poor.

It is much quicker door2door on the motorway than using the trains because Heuston is in the wrong place with no rail links to Heuston, and you can at least get reasonable food on motorway routes now. They should build an intercity rail station with a vast car park on the M50 rim and at least open intercity rail travel to 100% of the east coast market. Getting into city for Heuston adds 40-60 min at rush hour for most living in the greater Dublin region. Heuston not connected to the dart network doesn't join the dots.

LXFlyer · 26-01-2015 5:57pm

oceanfroggie wrote: »

25 years ago the Dublin-Cork early morning and evening express trains at least had a decent business service with proper table service food from a reasonable menu. You could get breakfast. Now just disgusting junk food from a trolly. Ireland is the only county in Europe that now does not have a proper business class rail service between major cities. I stopped using trains for work because the on board experience is so poor.

It is much quicker door2door on the motorway than using the trains because Heuston is in the wrong place with no rail links to Heuston, and you can at least get reasonable food on motorway routes now. They should build an intercity rail station with a vast car park on the M50 rim and at least open intercity rail travel to 100% of the east coast market. Getting into city for Heuston adds 40-60 min at rush hour for most living in the greater Dublin region. Heuston not connected to the dart network doesn't join the dots.

Em, the 07:00 Dublin/Cork and 07:00 Cork/Dublin services have full breakfast services on board, as does the 08:00 Cork/Dublin connection (from Mallow).

Similarly on the 17:00, 17:05 and 18:00 Dublin/Cork services you can get a meal in the buffet car.

laoisfan · 26-01-2015 6:02pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Em, the 07:00 Dublin/Cork and 07:00 Cork/Dublin services have full breakfast services on board, as does the 08:00 Cork/Dublin connection (from Mallow).

Similarly on the 17:00, 17:05 and 18:00 Dublin/Cork services you can get a meal in the buffet car.

I wouldn't call them a meal exactly. The stuff you used to be able to get many years ago was a lot better than the crap they server now.

LXFlyer · 26-01-2015 6:06pm

laoisfan wrote: »

I wouldn't call them a meal exactly. The stuff you used to be able to get many years ago was a lot better than the crap they server now.

You can get a main course - that's my point. It's hardly "crap" - I've eaten on the trains myself and it's not that bad.

There's more available than simply the trolley.

Times and tastes change - and the catering has to as well for it to be economic.

SpaceTime · 26-01-2015 6:08pm

I agree, they could really push the catering aspect if they wanted to.
The MK4s have every facility a city centre café / restaurant have - i.e. full kitchens, and every facility you could possibly need. They just need a proper espresso machine installed!

I'd rather see that whole catering situation going to an local company capable of doing nice food. It should run like a cafe and be a hell of a lot more 'foodie' in this day and age.

Giving people microwaved ready meals isn't really good enough. It's also a lost business opportunity as people are not going to buy food twice if it's a bad experience.

The old menu from the pre-outsourced days was a bit 'greasy spoon' but at least it was proper hot food.

It's a missed opportunity in my opinion - I'd actually go out of my way to take the train if it could give me a decent coffee and a nice meal. A microwaved chicken curry out of a packet is not really what I'd call good food. This isn't an aircraft and they have lots of space to cook and prepare food and purpose-built facilities - seems daft not to use them!

end of the road · 26-01-2015 7:09pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Times and tastes change - and the catering has to as well for it to be economic.

gway oul dah. when it comes to a proper meal times and tastes never change. time to either bring back the catering in house or get in a local firm capible of providing something worth paying for

Jamie2k9 · 26-01-2015 7:10pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I agree, they could really push the catering aspect if they wanted to.
The MK4s have every facility a city centre café / restaurant have - i.e. full kitchens, and every facility you could possibly need. They just need a proper espresso machine installed!

I'd rather see that whole catering situation going to an local company capable of doing nice food. It should run like a cafe and be a hell of a lot more 'foodie' in this day and age.

Giving people microwaved ready meals isn't really good enough. It's also a lost business opportunity as people are not going to buy food twice if it's a bad experience.

The old menu from the pre-outsourced days was a bit 'greasy spoon' but at least it was proper hot food.

It's a missed opportunity in my opinion - I'd actually go out of my way to take the train if it could give me a decent coffee and a nice meal. A microwaved chicken curry out of a packet is not really what I'd call good food. This isn't an aircraft and they have lots of space to cook and prepare food and purpose-built facilities - seems daft not to use them!

Since Network Catering the overall meal aspect including trolley service was gone rapidly downhill while prices have go up a lot. You can't even get a decent sandwich these days never mind hot food.

SpaceTime · 26-01-2015 7:15pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Since Network Catering the overall meal aspect including trolley service was gone rapidly downhill while prices have go up a lot. You can't even get a decent sandwich these days never mind hot food.

The old menu was pretty much straight out of the 1970s though something like :

Full fry up.
Steak and chips
Egg, beans and chips
Omelette and chips.
Sausage and chips.
Chicken Maryland and chips.
chips and chips.

All served up with a nice cup of tea, coffee you could stand a spoon up in or a pint!

(you could probably get chips on the side too if you didn't have enough)

I distinctly remember being on a Dublin-Cork train that stopped due to a faulty frier! (that was the official announcement). They fixed the fryer and continued on as there was a serious risk of a chip crisis!

n97 mini · 26-01-2015 9:45pm

Did the full fry up not come with chips too?

boreder · 26-01-2015 9:50pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I agree, they could really push the catering aspect if they wanted to.
The MK4s have every facility a city centre café / restaurant have - i.e. full kitchens, and every facility you could possibly need. They just need a proper espresso machine installed!

I'd rather see that whole catering situation going to an local company capable of doing nice food. It should run like a cafe and be a hell of a lot more 'foodie' in this day and age.

Giving people microwaved ready meals isn't really good enough. It's also a lost business opportunity as people are not going to buy food twice if it's a bad experience.

The old menu from the pre-outsourced days was a bit 'greasy spoon' but at least it was proper hot food.

It's a missed opportunity in my opinion - I'd actually go out of my way to take the train if it could give me a decent coffee and a nice meal. A microwaved chicken curry out of a packet is not really what I'd call good food. This isn't an aircraft and they have lots of space to cook and prepare food and purpose-built facilities - seems daft not to use them!

II'd settle for a bottle of water that wasn't €2.60.

Get the basics right first, and then start working on the gourmet menu.

Agree with the Coffee though, there has to be a way to serve a decent non-instant coffee.

coylemj · 26-01-2015 11:59pm

Can you still order a 'full Irish' to be delivered to your table if you're in first class on the 7 a.m. train to Cork these days? Used to do that trip a lot before the roads improved.

LXFlyer · 27-01-2015 12:25am

Absolutely - I posted the menu earlier in this thread.

Jamie2k9 · 27-01-2015 2:20am

Do the 22's FC sets have any sort of kitchen like the Mark IV's? Being a long time since I have entered a FC coach.

Grandeeod · 27-01-2015 1:07pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Did the full fry up not come with chips too?

It was on the lunch time menu. They added chips and called it a grill. Network catering days.

Cool Mo D · 28-01-2015 8:18am

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/rail-upgrade-will-slash-15-minutes-off-dublincork-trip-30943928.html

cgcsb · 28-01-2015 10:57am

why do Irish newspapers through the phrase 'high speed' about willy nilly? commonly understood to be at least 200km/hr

dowlingm · 28-01-2015 12:35pm

Boards.ie gets action

as pointed out by the OP we've heard all this before though. Now it would be nice for the Cork and Limerick business sectors to put pressure on for a Dublin service to arrive in the current Mallow-Cork commuter slot around 8.30, connecting to Limerick either at Thurles or Limerick Junction.

AngryLips · 28-01-2015 1:03pm

Does this mean that there is going to be changes to the timetable come the beginning of April to reflect the faster speeds? Shouldn't those changes be implemented by now given that you can book online up to three months in advance?

LXFlyer · 28-01-2015 1:29pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Does this mean that there is going to be changes to the timetable come the beginning of April to reflect the faster speeds? Shouldn't those changes be implemented by now given that you can book online up to three months in advance?

No - the ballast cleaning work is going to happen between March and November, with a consequent improvement in journey times in 2016.

What may happen is after Easter is the addition of a Cork-Dublin non-stop service. presumably in the early morning. That would be quicker than the existing services.

Reservations can be made online up to 60 days in advance, so there is time yet for any change in times to be published.

cgcsb · 28-01-2015 1:36pm

The article isn't the clearest. Would I be correct in saying there are 2 separate developments here:

1) a new non stop morning service Cork-Dublin to take 2:15, begining after Easter

2) March - November, an infrastructure upgrade will improve speeds to 160km/hr as far as Portlaoise. Meaning that by November that express morning service could possibly complete the journey in 2 hours, or a little over.

If correct it is a massively positive development, historic one might say, and one which will really compete with the Car.

LXFlyer · 28-01-2015 1:44pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The article isn't the clearest. Would I be correct in saying there are 2 separate developments here:

1) a new non stop morning service Cork-Dublin to take 2:15, begining after Easter

2) March - November, an infrastructure upgrade will improve speeds to 160km/hr as far as Portlaoise. Meaning that by November that express morning service could possibly complete the journey in 2 hours, or a little over.

If correct it is a massively positive development, historic one might say, and one which will really compete with the Car.

The two hour journey time will need the other works to be completed.

What David Franks said was:

"Over the next couple of years, we'll continue that across the (Dublin-Cork) route to get journey times down to under two hours. There are a couple of things we also need to do, including replacing five level crossings and a couple of bridges need to be renewed. A curve in the line also needs to be addressed.

"The intention is to knock a few minutes off in 2016 and 2017, subject to getting more funding. At the rate we're going, we think we can get between eight and 10 minutes out of timetable by doing the ballast. We can probably get 17 minutes from the timetable (over time) and that's our plan."

So you're looking at the two hour target being achieved after all of that work being completed.

There will be a "bed-in" period upon completion of the ballast work, to allow for it to settle, which would mean the first improvement in times coming in 2016, but the two hour journey time taking until 2017 to be delivered, subject to funding being provided, a very key phrase.

Nor did the article say how long the proposed non-stop service would take.

Carawaystick · 29-01-2015 12:19am

Don't Irish rail require passengers to turn up 20 min in advance of leaving Heuston, a 6th of the journey time increased on top of the time to get to Heuston

kc56 · 29-01-2015 11:28am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Do the 22's FC sets have any sort of kitchen like the Mark IV's? Being a long time since I have entered a FC coach.

Yes. The 0700 Tralee/Dublin has full catering as does 1705 Dublin Tralee, both are 22K ICRs. Full breakfast with real coffee isn't that bad and a cheaper than a continental breakfast in an IBIS, of similar, in Europe.

kc56 · 29-01-2015 11:31am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Don't Irish rail require passengers to turn up 20 min in advance of leaving Heuston, a 6th of the journey time increased on top of the time to get to Heuston

If you arrive before they close the doors, that usually is sufficient.

Cool_CM · 29-01-2015 11:37am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Don't Irish rail require passengers to turn up 20 min in advance of leaving Heuston, a 6th of the journey time increased on top of the time to get to Heuston

In theory, but not really in practice.

What happened the Dublin-Cork Business Express??

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