Dublin Bus stages

devnull · 16-01-2015 11:31pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why did Dublin bus buy those machines which were well out of date and not suitable for the job when they were bought? Dublin bus knew that Leap cards were coming yet bought a ticketing system which was incapable of being reliably upgraded to meet future demands.

To be fair, those machines were bought around 2005 or so, and you know leap was a pipe dream at that time and I have a bit of sympathy for them with that, since many of the technologies that developed in the 10 years since could never have been anticipated.

When the current machines ewre bought they had already been replaced by the manufacturer with a much better model yet Dublin Bus/CIE wasted money on old technology.Those responsible should be made accountable.

They could have bought the newer model, but the newer model wasn't as well established then as it hadn't been out that long, in hindsight they should have bought the newer model, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and generally such contracts and decisions in state companies were done on tender and price would be a very important if not the only important factor at the time.

I completely agree it's not good enough right now and needs to be replaced ASAP, but you know I can see why they bought them even if it was a mistake.

poggyone · 16-01-2015 11:42pm

devnull wrote: »

When Network Direct was formed, it was an idea of DUblin Bus, when the project first started being studied the NTA didn't even exist properly and it's only after the first phases of the project that the NTA came on stream and even then they had little power and less input than they did now.

Now is the important word in this quote.
DB dont decide anything, they just follow NTA orders.

When the NTA did not exist we had politicians interfere left, right and centre.
Now the politicians get the NTA to do the dirty work and can say we don't interfere, the NTA are there to provide a cover for politicians.

Don't believe what i say, look at time tables for routes all over dublin.
A simple explanation ,Route xx travels from heuston to o'connell bridge all day from 0620 to 2330, every 20 minutes.
What have we here the 0740 is slightly different it starts in kilmainham and goes to the IFSC and then again it departs the IFSC at 1700 and goes to kilmainham.
Only one journey each way each day is extended, seems a bit unusual.
Then the drivers of the route xx get to know the passengers and over time they notice one woman always gets the 0740 and 1700 the full way kilmainham to IFSC and back.
One day reading the paper a driver see's the womans photo in the paper, related to a politician.
The politician has interfered in the running of DB to provide a Bus to take a relation to and from work.
That is a simple example, if you have nothing better to do, check out past and present time tables to find similar anomalies.

poggyone · 16-01-2015 11:50pm

devnull wrote: »

No transactions using leap credit are stored, the balance is held on the card and the cash is deducted at time the fare being taken.

I'm not sure where your theory is coming from here.

When you top up a leap card the money all goes into a pool held by the NTA.
When you use the leap card on DB the card is deducted the fare , and the DB ticket machine is credited the fare.
At the end of the Day the ticket machine on the bus downloads this info off how much money it has taken for the day and DB submit this to the NTA and are paid for the days takings.
If the machine locks up and is rebooted to get to work again all the info is lost, DB can't get paid because they can't submit a total for the day.
I hope i explained it so you understand.

devnull · 16-01-2015 11:52pm

poggyone wrote: »

Now is the important word in this quote.
DB dont decide anything, they just follow NTA orders.

No, there are some decisions they can make, but some of the stuff has to be approved by the NTA, so they can decide something or suggest it, but it needs approval and sometimes the NTA will ask for something, but it's wrong to say that Dublin Bus don't have any say or input because they do.

When the NTA did not exist we had politicians interfere left, right and centre. Now the politicians get the NTA to do the dirty work and can say we don't interfere, the NTA are there to provide a cover for politicians.

Well there is political interference everywhere, if you think it's just the NTA or public companies you'd be wrong. I have worked in a private company and a politican once called in and spun do you know who I am line and asked me if we could make an exception for him, so don't see how it's worth being the NTA up over that when it's fairly common, especially in Ireland.

Don't believe what i say, look at time tables for routes all over dublin.
A simple explanation ,Route xx travels from heuston to o'connell bridge all day from 0620 to 2330, every 20 minutes.
What have we here the 0740 is slightly different it starts in kilmainham and goes to the IFSC and then again it departs the IFSC at 1700 and goes to kilmainham.
Only one journey each way each day is extended, seems a bit unusual.
Then the drivers of the route xx get to know the passengers and over time they notice one woman always

There were route variations like that 10 years ago, it's hardly something that is rare or happened under the NTAs watch. On some timetables you had 4-5 variations of a service, yet they all had the same number.

If I remember correctly, route 172 was widely believed to have continued for as long as it did despite carrying little more than thin air for ages was because someone important lived on the route and it helped them win votes.

devnull · 16-01-2015 11:55pm

poggyone wrote: »

When you top up a leap card the money all goes into a pool held by the NTA.
When you use the leap card on DB the card is deducted the fare , and the DB ticket machine is credited the fare.
At the end of the Day the ticket machine on the bus downloads this info off how much money it has taken for the day and DB submit this to the NTA and are paid for the days takings.
If the machine locks up and is rebooted to get to work again all the info is lost, DB can't get paid because they can't submit a total for the day.
I hope i explained it so you understand.

So if this is such a major problem and they are losing so much money, surely there has to be at some point where it is cheaper to invest in ticket machines than lose the cash.

Thing is though, if this really is a problem, then how would the leap online balance check know where the fare comes from? It would have no idea if this really was happening.

poggyone · 16-01-2015 11:55pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why did Dublin bus buy those machines which were well out of date and not suitable for the job when they were bought? Dublin bus knew that Leap cards were coming yet bought a ticketing system which was incapable of being reliably upgraded to meet future demands.

When the current machines ewre bought they had already been replaced by the manufacturer with a much better model yet Dublin Bus/CIE wasted money on old technology.Those responsible should be made accountable.

The game Snake worked flawless on a phone from 2005,Try playing Angry Bird on a phone from 2005, it will be useless.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 12:03am

devnull wrote: »

So if this is such a major problem and they are losing so much money, surely there has to be at some point where it is cheaper to invest in ticket machines than lose the cash.

Thing is though, if this really is a problem, then how would the leap online balance check know where the fare comes from? It would have no idea if this really was happening.

1.As of next month it not a problem for DB as they are getting a flat fee per bus on a route.
2.Plenty of posts here about the online balance not updating for a day or two. Next time the leap card was used on a machine that uploaded at the end of the night it would then appear online, until now you did not know why it was delayed , well now you do.

Stevek101 · 17-01-2015 1:13am

poggyone wrote: »

1.As of next month it not a problem for DB as they are getting a flat fee per bus on a route.
2.Plenty of posts here about the online balance not updating for a day or two. Next time the leap card was used on a machine that uploaded at the end of the night it would then appear online, until now you did not know why it was delayed , well now you do.

So in other words DB do/did get paid even after a reboot.;)

cdebru · 17-01-2015 3:13am

poggyone wrote: »

Now is the important word in this quote.
DB dont decide anything, they just follow NTA orders.

When the NTA did not exist we had politicians interfere left, right and centre.
Now the politicians get the NTA to do the dirty work and can say we don't interfere, the NTA are there to provide a cover for politicians.

Don't believe what i say, look at time tables for routes all over dublin.
A simple explanation ,Route xx travels from heuston to o'connell bridge all day from 0620 to 2330, every 20 minutes.
What have we here the 0740 is slightly different it starts in kilmainham and goes to the IFSC and then again it departs the IFSC at 1700 and goes to kilmainham.
Only one journey each way each day is extended, seems a bit unusual.
Then the drivers of the route xx get to know the passengers and over time they notice one woman always gets the 0740 and 1700 the full way kilmainham to IFSC and back.
One day reading the paper a driver see's the womans photo in the paper, related to a politician.
The politician has interfered in the running of DB to provide a Bus to take a relation to and from work.
That is a simple example, if you have nothing better to do, check out past and present time tables to find similar anomalies.

The 51a was an example, went through drumcondra, DB tried getting rid of it numerous times, but never managed to, finally disappeared in 2009, oddly less than a year after Bertie left the stage.

bk · 17-01-2015 10:16am

poggyone wrote: »

Now is the important word in this quote.
DB dont decide anything, they just follow NTA orders.

Well that is nonsense.

If it was true, then the new buses that the NTA buy for DB would have the new Transport For Ireland livery which is what the NTA wants. But no, they still have the DB livery because the DB management and unions threw a fit at the idea of this new livery.

So clearly the NTA has no where near the power you suggest. I really REALLY wish they did because I'd honestly believe Dublin would have vastly better bus services if it did have that much power.

cdebru · 17-01-2015 11:30am

bk wrote: »

Well that is nonsense.

If it was true, then the new buses that the NTA buy for DB would have the new Transport For Ireland livery which is what the NTA wants. But no, they still have the DB livery because the DB management and unions threw a fit at the idea of this new livery.

So clearly the NTA has no where near the power you suggest. I really REALLY wish they did because I'd honestly believe Dublin would have vastly better bus services if it did have that much power.

Wasn't that Bus Eireann ? I don't think there has been anything in DB regarding TFI liveries.

AlekSmart · 17-01-2015 1:58pm

bk wrote: »

Well that is nonsense.

If it was true, then the new buses that the NTA buy for DB would have the new Transport For Ireland livery which is what the NTA wants. But no, they still have the DB livery because the DB management and unions threw a fit at the idea of this new livery.

So clearly the NTA has no where near the power you suggest. I really REALLY wish they did because I'd honestly believe Dublin would have vastly better bus services if it did have that much power.

It,s worth addressing some misconceptions on the relationship between BAC and the NTA.

Since the inception of the new regulatory system,the NTA/BAC are contractually bound to each other.

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Dublin_Bus_Direct_Award_Contract_Schedules_2014_to_2019.pdf

The Direct Award Contract,now in it's second 5 year period is a deatiled and negotiated agreement between the two parties,just as ALL contracts are.

The key is in the word "Agreement".

Be very clear that neither BAC management or Trades Unions were ever in a position to "Throw a fit at the idea of a new livery".

The primary reason for this is that there is currently NO Transport for Ireland livery.

That's not to say that one will not eventually materialize,however at the moment such an item is NOT a priority (IMO Rightfully so).

What IS agreed between the parties,is the requirement on the part of the Operator to.....

f) display notices as required by Authority from time to time, including, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing,information regarding the conditions of carriage and
conduct of passengers and a notice indicating that the bus is operated under contract to the National Transport Authority
,to a design and at location inside the Network Bus to be agreed with the National Transport Authority, at all times that the bus is operating
the Services

(m)be liveried to the Authority’s requirements

Whilst some may believe,and others even desire,to portray the NTA/BAC relationship as some form of boiling cauldron of disagreement and rancour,the reality is that there are a LOT of professional and highly competent people interacting with each other in a new and,(in Irish terms) uncharted manner.

The award of the second 5 year contract (Modified as it is) was not simply a "nod-through" process,with the NTA having engaged in a substantial internal and external consultation process before arriving at their decision.

As it currently stands,the NTA are now in a substantially more "Powerful" position than they were 6 years ago,simply by virtue of their 5 years of Regulatory Experience and the entire process of monitoring,interpreting and implementing,the Contractual requirements.

It is equally worth noting,that the old "Public vs Private" arguement is being somewhat sidelined by the NTA's role and particularly it's contracting specifications.

Not all Operators will be wildly enthusiastic at the tight specifications and requirements inherent in contracted operations,as it can often reduce the "flexibility" formerly enjoyed in the unregulated world....;)

It's a Brave New World for sure,but the process is by no means complete,and may not be for decades to come.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 4:26pm

devnull wrote: »

No, there are some decisions they can make,

Do enlighten us, tell us more, don't make a statement and leave it hanging without any examples.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 4:30pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

So in other words DB do/did get paid even after a reboot.;)

gone and DB will not get paid.

NO, after the reboot the ticket machine is blank, like starting a fresh days work, any leap money that was deducted is gone. DB have no way to show leap card was used on the ticket machine.
NTA has the money in the central pool. They don't care that the machine dont work properly, the only one loosing out was DB.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 4:41pm

bk wrote: »

Well that is nonsense.

If it was true, then the new buses that the NTA buy for DB would have the new Transport For Ireland livery which is what the NTA wants. But no, they still have the DB livery because the DB management and unions threw a fit at the idea of this new livery.

So clearly the NTA has no where near the power you suggest. I really REALLY wish they did because I'd honestly believe Dublin would have vastly better bus services if it did have that much power.

Classic example of the five stages of grief on display from you and others here.
1-Denial
2-Anger
3-Bargaining
4-Depression
5-Acceptance

1-The NTA are the good guys who are going to work for us passengers.
2-The NTA need to crack down hard on DB
3-The NTA just need more time to fix things
4-The NTA are not doing enough, its still bad getting the bus
5-The NTA are a part of the problem.

Its safe to say most posters are any where between 1 and 3, give it a year and some will have moved on to 4

devnull · 17-01-2015 4:46pm

poggyone wrote: »

Do enlighten us, tell us more, don't make a statement and leave it hanging without any examples.

- They can decide whether to curtail a route or not due to anti-social behaviour
- They can decide on a diversion to take during service disruption.
- They can decide if a route should go pick up only to recover time
- They can decide which vehicle to put out on which route each day
- They can decide which services to cancel when their are staff services
- They can decide what action to take on complaints
- They can decide the maintenance for vehicles
- They can decide how they tackle fare evasion
- They can decide how they communicate with the public
- They can decide what terms and conditions they offer their staff
- They can decide how the fleet is presented
- They can decide who each route is staffed

There are some things they do that are actually the opposite of what the NTA would want, which also do little to improve transport integration and in fact do exactly the opposite.

- Producing their own journey planner
- Producing their own maps
- Producing their own real time app.

All three of the above are offered by the NTA, but Dublin Bus do not want to use such things because people may find that they have a better or more direct route by another company and Dublin Bus would not like that. There is no reason for PSO companies to have any of the above of their own, when a wider solution already exists for the whole transport network.

The only reason Dublin Bus does not acknowledge that there are other companies are since it will hurt their business, but a PSO company is not supposed to act as a business, they are supposed to act for a greater good, and unfortunately Dublin Bus have shown that over a number of years there very often is a lot of stuff that is company first, the bigger transport picture second, and the three things I outline above are fine examples, blocking the greater good for self preservation reasons.

The whole idea of having publicly owned bus companies is that they put public transport first and self interest and their own interest second. They spend enough time moaning about private companies putting themselves before the passenger, but Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are not always thinking of the bigger picture either.

Dublin Bus needs regulation. Every city needs a transport regulator, since neither private or public companies can be trusted to put the bigger picture first. That's not just unique to Dublin, it's the same in many a city and country. Both private bus companies and public bus companies have their flaws, that is why I support tendering since it takes the ability of either set of companies to use things to their own advantage away from them.

devnull · 17-01-2015 4:49pm

poggyone wrote: »

gone and DB will not get paid.

NO, after the reboot the ticket machine is blank, like starting a fresh days work, any leap money that was deducted is gone. DB have no way to show leap card was used on the ticket machine.

So tell me again, how does the Leap Card system online know that the fare deducted was from Dublin Bus 24-48 hours later if there is no record of it? It would be impossible.

You claim that this problem is the reason for slow updating balances, but the balances cannot update to show the fare was on Dublin Bus, if the data to prove it does not exist like you claim.

devnull · 17-01-2015 4:51pm

poggyone wrote: »

Classic example of the five stages of grief on display from you and others here.

Classic example of Dublin Bus staff coming on here spreading Fear, uncertainty and doubt because of the fact that tendering could be happening sometime soon and it may mean that they won't be the most important people anymore?

Of course not! :rolleyes:

dublindiehard · 17-01-2015 4:59pm

It's getting pathetic this crusade against the national transport authority are getting

All. Down to Tendring at the end of the day but no excuse to come on this board and spread myths to help your cau s e

Is amusing to watch you all though as you realise that the days where you come first may soon be over and how much you hate it.

Dublin bus was run for the benefit of the staff for toe long and for the benefit of Dublin bus they never had any interest in the bigger picture of public transport just their own company

They have gone out their way ve block change and intergration so the more power to the authority the better

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:01pm

devnull wrote: »

So tell me again, how does the Leap Card system online know that the fare deducted was from Dublin Bus 24-48 hours later if there is no record of it? It would be impossible.

You claim that this problem is the reason for slow updating balances, but the balances cannot update to show the fare was on Dublin Bus, if the data to prove it does not exist like you claim.

Are you be obtuse on purpose?

The card starts with E20, get on DB pay E1.50, card now has E18.50 on it.
Ticket machine locks up, is rebooted looses all info. DB can’t clam for the money earned that day.

The leap ticket still has E18.50 on it, what is the part you don’t understand?

foggy_lad · 17-01-2015 5:02pm

poggyone wrote: »

gone and DB will not get paid.

NO, after the reboot the ticket machine is blank, like starting a fresh days work, any leap money that was deducted is gone. DB have no way to show leap card was used on the ticket machine.
NTA has the money in the central pool. They don't care that the machine dont work properly, the only one loosing out was DB.

if this is actually happening then the blame lies squarely with Dublin bus and whatever purchasing team that bought the current ticket machines/failed to buy more up to date machines which would have cost much less in lost revenue and also in repair costs!

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:08pm

devnull wrote: »

Classic example of Dublin Bus staff coming on here spreading Fear, uncertainty and doubt because of the fact that tendering could be happening sometime soon and it may mean that they won't be the most important people anymore?

Of course not! :rolleyes:

If only you knew 10% of what you thought was going on, you are truly clueless.
The NTA, DB and the unions where in the labour court in december,the Labour court ran the NTA out and told them not to come back until you have a idea what you want to do, they have NO plan at all, they are making it up as they go along.
The NTA answers to all question asked by the labour court where, Maybe, Hopefully, Possible,We Believe, We Might,We Could, and We Don't Know.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:10pm

dublindiehard wrote: »

It's getting pathetic this crusade against the national transport authority are getting

All. Down to Tendring at the end of the day but no excuse to come on this board and spread myths to help your cau s e

Is amusing to watch you all though as you realise that the days where you come first may soon be over and how much you hate it.

Dublin bus was run for the benefit of the staff for toe long and for the benefit of Dublin bus they never had any interest in the bigger picture of public transport just their own company

They have gone out their way ve block change and intergration so the more power to the authority the better

Firmly planted between
1-Denial
2-Anger

it will be interesting to see you progress through 3,4,5 in the coming years.

devnull · 17-01-2015 5:11pm

poggyone wrote: »

Are you be obtuse on purpose?

The card starts with E20, get on DB pay E1.50, card now has E18.50 on it.
Ticket machine locks up, is rebooted looses all info. DB can’t clam for the money earned that day.

The leap ticket still has E18.50 on it, what is the part you don’t understand?

No, I'm not, but you are avoiding the question on purpose because it exposes a hole in your story that you seem unable to explain to me.

- Leap Card has €20,00 on it,
- Passenger takes a €1.50 fare.
- Ticket machine gets blanked.
- 48 hours later the transaction for €1.50 shows on leapcard.ie

Please tell me how the transaction for Dublin bus can show on leapcard.ie and be credited to Dublin Bus, if, like you say, there is no way of tracking that the fare was taken by Dublin Bus. If there was no way of tracking it, it would not know where the €1.50 comes from?

See the post from Steve earlier this morning, which I note you have not answered.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:12pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

if this is actually happening then the blame lies squarely with Dublin bus and whatever purchasing team that bought the current ticket machines/failed to buy more up to date machines which would have cost much less in lost revenue and also in repair costs!

When bought the machines could do the job required, but not now after dozens of new tickets are loaded on the machine.
Would you expect a 2005 phone to work with all the latest apps on the market?

Peregrine · 17-01-2015 5:13pm

poggyone wrote: »

gone and DB will not get paid.

NO, after the reboot the ticket machine is blank, like starting a fresh days work, any leap money that was deducted is gone. DB have no way to show leap card was used on the ticket machine.
NTA has the money in the central pool. They don't care that the machine dont work properly, the only one loosing out was DB.

I'm struggling to understand how this is the NTA's fault and not the limitations of the 30 year old technology in the TGX 150. Please enlighten me.

poggyone wrote: »

When bought the machines could do the job required, but not now after dozens of new tickets are loaded on the machine.
Would you expect a 2005 phone to work with all the latest apps on the market?

Well, in 2005, I wouldn't buy a phone from 1985. Even after accounting for its reliability, it still seems short sighted.

Either way, something has to be done about the ticket machines..

devnull · 17-01-2015 5:13pm

poggyone wrote: »

The NTA, DB and the unions where in the labour court in december,the Labour court ran the NTA out and told them not to come back until you have a idea what you want to do, they have NO plan at all, they are making it up as they go along.

Can you please provide me with some document from a reputable source that backs up this story.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:15pm

devnull wrote: »

No, I'm not, but you are avoiding the question on purpose because it exposes a hole in your story that you seem unable to explain to me.

- Leap Card has €20,00 on it,
- Passenger takes a €1.50 fare.
- Ticket machine gets blanked.
- 48 hours later the transaction for €1.50 shows on leapcard.ie

Please tell me how the transaction for Dublin bus can show on leapcard.ie and be credited to Dublin Bus, if, like you say, there is no way of tracking that the fare was taken by Dublin Bus. If there was no way of tracking it, it would not know where the €1.50 comes from?

See the post from Steve earlier this morning, which I note you have not answered.

Who said the NTA gave this money to DB?
The NTA might know where the money should go, but unless DB put in a claim they don't get paid, Do you understand now?

devnull · 17-01-2015 5:17pm

poggyone wrote: »

When bought the machines could do the job required, but not now after dozens of new tickets are loaded on the machine.
Would you expect a 2005 phone to work with all the latest apps on the market?

See my earlier response - I don't blame Dublin Bus for buying them when they did, but they are past their best now and are way out of date.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and even if they wanted to they'd have never got the TGX250 as it would have went out to tender and no doubt the manufactuer of both machines offered the cheaper older one since as we all know, tenders are almost fully based on price.

foggy_lad · 17-01-2015 5:25pm

poggyone wrote: »

When bought the machines could do the job required, but not now after dozens of new tickets are loaded on the machine.
Would you expect a 2005 phone to work with all the latest apps on the market?

When bought the machines could only do the job they were required for and they were obsolete when they were ordered.

Are you saying that nobody on the purchasing team or within CIE had the foresight to look at the oyster card in England and systems in other countries to see where ticketing was heading in Ireland?(You can be sure that staff went on junkets over to London etc to see how their systems worked!)

Dublin Bus stages

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