Dublin Bus stages

foggy_lad · 17-01-2015 5:02pm

poggyone wrote: »

gone and DB will not get paid.

NO, after the reboot the ticket machine is blank, like starting a fresh days work, any leap money that was deducted is gone. DB have no way to show leap card was used on the ticket machine.
NTA has the money in the central pool. They don't care that the machine dont work properly, the only one loosing out was DB.

if this is actually happening then the blame lies squarely with Dublin bus and whatever purchasing team that bought the current ticket machines/failed to buy more up to date machines which would have cost much less in lost revenue and also in repair costs!

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:08pm

devnull wrote: »

Classic example of Dublin Bus staff coming on here spreading Fear, uncertainty and doubt because of the fact that tendering could be happening sometime soon and it may mean that they won't be the most important people anymore?

Of course not! :rolleyes:

If only you knew 10% of what you thought was going on, you are truly clueless.
The NTA, DB and the unions where in the labour court in december,the Labour court ran the NTA out and told them not to come back until you have a idea what you want to do, they have NO plan at all, they are making it up as they go along.
The NTA answers to all question asked by the labour court where, Maybe, Hopefully, Possible,We Believe, We Might,We Could, and We Don't Know.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:10pm

dublindiehard wrote: »

It's getting pathetic this crusade against the national transport authority are getting

All. Down to Tendring at the end of the day but no excuse to come on this board and spread myths to help your cau s e

Is amusing to watch you all though as you realise that the days where you come first may soon be over and how much you hate it.

Dublin bus was run for the benefit of the staff for toe long and for the benefit of Dublin bus they never had any interest in the bigger picture of public transport just their own company

They have gone out their way ve block change and intergration so the more power to the authority the better

Firmly planted between
1-Denial
2-Anger

it will be interesting to see you progress through 3,4,5 in the coming years.

devnull · 17-01-2015 5:11pm

poggyone wrote: »

Are you be obtuse on purpose?

The card starts with E20, get on DB pay E1.50, card now has E18.50 on it.
Ticket machine locks up, is rebooted looses all info. DB can’t clam for the money earned that day.

The leap ticket still has E18.50 on it, what is the part you don’t understand?

No, I'm not, but you are avoiding the question on purpose because it exposes a hole in your story that you seem unable to explain to me.

- Leap Card has €20,00 on it,
- Passenger takes a €1.50 fare.
- Ticket machine gets blanked.
- 48 hours later the transaction for €1.50 shows on leapcard.ie

Please tell me how the transaction for Dublin bus can show on leapcard.ie and be credited to Dublin Bus, if, like you say, there is no way of tracking that the fare was taken by Dublin Bus. If there was no way of tracking it, it would not know where the €1.50 comes from?

See the post from Steve earlier this morning, which I note you have not answered.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:12pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

if this is actually happening then the blame lies squarely with Dublin bus and whatever purchasing team that bought the current ticket machines/failed to buy more up to date machines which would have cost much less in lost revenue and also in repair costs!

When bought the machines could do the job required, but not now after dozens of new tickets are loaded on the machine.
Would you expect a 2005 phone to work with all the latest apps on the market?

Peregrine · 17-01-2015 5:13pm

poggyone wrote: »

gone and DB will not get paid.

NO, after the reboot the ticket machine is blank, like starting a fresh days work, any leap money that was deducted is gone. DB have no way to show leap card was used on the ticket machine.
NTA has the money in the central pool. They don't care that the machine dont work properly, the only one loosing out was DB.

I'm struggling to understand how this is the NTA's fault and not the limitations of the 30 year old technology in the TGX 150. Please enlighten me.

poggyone wrote: »

When bought the machines could do the job required, but not now after dozens of new tickets are loaded on the machine.
Would you expect a 2005 phone to work with all the latest apps on the market?

Well, in 2005, I wouldn't buy a phone from 1985. Even after accounting for its reliability, it still seems short sighted.

Either way, something has to be done about the ticket machines..

devnull · 17-01-2015 5:13pm

poggyone wrote: »

The NTA, DB and the unions where in the labour court in december,the Labour court ran the NTA out and told them not to come back until you have a idea what you want to do, they have NO plan at all, they are making it up as they go along.

Can you please provide me with some document from a reputable source that backs up this story.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:15pm

devnull wrote: »

No, I'm not, but you are avoiding the question on purpose because it exposes a hole in your story that you seem unable to explain to me.

- Leap Card has €20,00 on it,
- Passenger takes a €1.50 fare.
- Ticket machine gets blanked.
- 48 hours later the transaction for €1.50 shows on leapcard.ie

Please tell me how the transaction for Dublin bus can show on leapcard.ie and be credited to Dublin Bus, if, like you say, there is no way of tracking that the fare was taken by Dublin Bus. If there was no way of tracking it, it would not know where the €1.50 comes from?

See the post from Steve earlier this morning, which I note you have not answered.

Who said the NTA gave this money to DB?
The NTA might know where the money should go, but unless DB put in a claim they don't get paid, Do you understand now?

devnull · 17-01-2015 5:17pm

poggyone wrote: »

When bought the machines could do the job required, but not now after dozens of new tickets are loaded on the machine.
Would you expect a 2005 phone to work with all the latest apps on the market?

See my earlier response - I don't blame Dublin Bus for buying them when they did, but they are past their best now and are way out of date.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and even if they wanted to they'd have never got the TGX250 as it would have went out to tender and no doubt the manufactuer of both machines offered the cheaper older one since as we all know, tenders are almost fully based on price.

foggy_lad · 17-01-2015 5:25pm

poggyone wrote: »

When bought the machines could do the job required, but not now after dozens of new tickets are loaded on the machine.
Would you expect a 2005 phone to work with all the latest apps on the market?

When bought the machines could only do the job they were required for and they were obsolete when they were ordered.

Are you saying that nobody on the purchasing team or within CIE had the foresight to look at the oyster card in England and systems in other countries to see where ticketing was heading in Ireland?(You can be sure that staff went on junkets over to London etc to see how their systems worked!)

poggyone · 17-01-2015 5:42pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

When bought the machines could only do the job they were required

If they bought the top of the range machine posters would be on here complaining about wasting money.

Stevek101 · 17-01-2015 7:06pm

This is getting outrageous. It is completely untrue that Dublin Bus aren't getting paid for the transaction. It is clearly stated on your Leap Card balance that the tranaction took place on a Dublin Bus.

There is nothing magical about it. The fare is, was and will be credited to Dublin Bus until the new contracts commence.

The only exception for this is when there is a bad read of the card or the red light is displayed on the ticket machine which makes it inoperable. From using the bus multiple times per day this practically never happens anymore.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 7:50pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

This is getting outrageous. It is completely untrue that Dublin Bus aren't getting paid for the transaction. It is clearly stated on your Leap Card balance that the tranaction took place on a Dublin Bus.

There is nothing magical about it. The fare is, was and will be credited to Dublin Bus until the new contracts commence.

The only exception for this is when there is a bad read of the card or the red light is displayed on the ticket machine which makes it inoperable. From using the bus multiple times per day this practically never happens anymore.

Who do i believe, you or the person maintaining the machines?

As for your second point, it still happens a lot, you really believe your few transactions ,2,4,6 times a day with the machine allows you to speak with authority on the matter?
DB have lost a fortune because of the ticket machines, anyway it don't matter any more as of next month a flat fee per bus no matter how many passengers use the service.

devnull · 17-01-2015 7:54pm

I can say my points that I make are backed up by certain people as well. Doesn't mean I'm telling the truth though or they said such a thing.

Dublin Bus staff are not exactly impartial on the matter. Some of them have a vendetta against the NTA because of tendering.

That much is obvious.

poggyone · 17-01-2015 8:54pm

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Bus staff are not exactly impartial on the matter. Some of them have a vendetta against the NTA because of tendering.

That much is obvious.

You and others will be delighted to know that after recent developments, DB staff have no fear of tendering.
Nada, zilch, nothing to worry about.

devnull · 17-01-2015 9:21pm

poggyone wrote: »

You and others will be delighted to know that after recent developments, DB staff have no fear of tendering.
Nada, zilch, nothing to worry about.

And please tell, why is that?

Has pressure forced the NTA to put the company and staff before public transport users cancel or defer the tendering by some time?

monument · 18-01-2015 12:17am

poggyone wrote: »

Firmly planted between
1-Denial
2-Anger

it will be interesting to see you progress through 3,4,5 in the coming years.

poggyone wrote: »

Classic example of the five stages of grief on display from you and others here.
1-Denial
2-Anger
3-Bargaining
4-Depression
5-Acceptance

1-The NTA are the good guys who are going to work for us passengers.
2-The NTA need to crack down hard on DB
3-The NTA just need more time to fix things
4-The NTA are not doing enough, its still bad getting the bus
5-The NTA are a part of the problem.

Its safe to say most posters are any where between 1 and 3, give it a year and some will have moved on to 4

Attack the post rather than the poster. Read the charter before posting again.

-- moderator

Banjoxed · 18-01-2015 11:51pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

This is getting outrageous. It is completely untrue that Dublin Bus aren't getting paid for the transaction. It is clearly stated on your Leap Card balance that the tranaction took place on a Dublin Bus.

There is nothing magical about it. The fare is, was and will be credited to Dublin Bus until the new contracts commence.

The only exception for this is when there is a bad read of the card or the red light is displayed on the ticket machine which makes it inoperable. From using the bus multiple times per day this practically never happens anymore.

It wouldn't be the same C&T if there wasn't outrageous and sometimes unchallenged statements made. Why do you think certain threads are echo chambers?

Stevek101 · 19-01-2015 6:25pm

Seemingly the whole thing about Dublin Bus getting set fee per route is also untrue. That'll be part of the direct award in 2016.

Polar101 · 19-01-2015 9:33pm

Is there any logic to the stage numbers? Like, is it some sort of a grid system or just numbers in sequence?

Apologies if this was asked already. I did notice the mention about 25/75 being near O'Connell St.

lucernarian · 19-01-2015 9:45pm

poggyone wrote: »

If they bought the top of the range machine posters would be on here complaining about wasting money.

Yeah. And when has it even happened that CIÉ group companies bought top of the range anything?! I think replacing the Mark 3 train carriages might be wasteful but it's not like the 22Ks are extravagantly furnished either? I don't know who these posters are as I expect they would have had little to complain about;) Completely agree with foggy lad, junkets and trips were made or paid for before the current Wayfarers were selected. Not that there's even an automatic evil to it. But public transport in Ireland has pretty much without exception worked on the "aim big, expect low" principle.

LXFlyer · 19-01-2015 10:43pm

Polar101 wrote: »

Is there any logic to the stage numbers? Like, is it some sort of a grid system or just numbers in sequence?

Apologies if this was asked already. I did notice the mention about 25/75 being near O'Connell St.

Despite what some people seem to think, the fare stage system is an exceptionally fair method of charging bus fares. But, it's problem is that it is not ideally suited to the new methods of charging fares, such as LEAP.

The numbering system is very simple. The main city centre stage on each route is either stage 25 (heading south or west), and stage 75 heading north or inbound on a route from the west.

Stages then increase in either direction in sequence, in such a way that the northbound and southbound stage numbers at each stage point add to 100. So on route 14, the next stage point to the south of the city centre on South Great Georges Street is stage 26 heading south and stage 74 heading north, while the first stage point heading north of the city at Connolly Station is stage 76 heading north and stage 24 heading south!

The stages are designed so that they do match one another in terms of distance travelled on parallel corridors. However, a further feature is that people travelling on bus routes on parallel corridors that then join up are not penalised by taking a longer route. For example, the number of stages travelled on route 47 from city centre to the junction of the Stillorgan Road and Nutley Lane is the same as those travelling on the 46a.

cdebru · 20-01-2015 7:22pm

devnull wrote: »

Can you please provide me with some document from a reputable source that backs up this story.

I'm not sure if the Labour court threw them out and told them not to come back, but the trade union account of their meeting with the NTA is pretty much as described by Poggyone, the Unions had a long list of questions regarding all kinds of stuff and the NTA couldn't or wouldn't answer any of them, it seems the basic plan is that they will transfer routes and that displaced staff will be reabsorbed back into the respective companies, however DB and BE are insisting that is not an option and that TUPE will apply, which leads to all kinds of questions for the staff affected none of which the NTA could answer.

devnull · 20-01-2015 7:42pm

cdebru wrote: »

I'm not sure if the Labour court threw them out and told them not to come back, but the trade union account of their meeting with the NTA is pretty much as described by Poggyone, the Unions had a long list of questions regarding all kinds of stuff and the NTA couldn't or wouldn't answer any of them, it seems the basic plan is that they will transfer routes and that displaced staff will be reabsorbed back into the respective companies, however DB and BE are insisting that is not an option and that TUPE will apply, which leads to all kinds of questions for the staff affected none of which the NTA could answer.

I'd just like to see a document from an objective source or signed off by parties from all sides, the reason is if you have one party on one side and the other party on the other side, generally each others notes are not going to be the most trustworthy of sources on either side since they will support each others wishes.

EG: The Unions report on it may very well say as you determine, but you know the NTA's report may say totally different since it is from a different point of view, so I tend not to really rely on one report, especially when it comes from a party that isn't going to be objective. What I'd prefer to see is either an independent report, Labour Court or suchlike, or both sides of the story where possible.

AlekSmart · 20-01-2015 9:40pm

devnull wrote: »

EG: The Unions report on it may very well say as you determine, but you know the NTA's report may say totally different since it is from a different point of view, so I tend not to really rely on one report, especially when it comes from a party that isn't going to be objective. What I'd prefer to see is either an independent report, Labour Court or suchlike, or both sides of the story where possible.

It should be noted that the present engagement in the Labour Relations Commission is NOT in the Labour COURT.

It is very much an exploratory situation,and as such,is being used to tease out and develop issues which may not have been visible or considered,during the initial setting-out of stalls.

Also of note is the seperate involvement of Minister Donoghue,who is currently "reflecting upon" certain issues raised with him before the Christmas break.

So with this in mind,any current desire to see a final "independent report" will not be satisfied until the LRC process is exhausted and,or a Labour COURT judgement is effected.

Neither of these procesess is likely to occur any way soon,but with the NTA's postponement of the Initial "Qualyfiying" Stage of Route Tendering due to expire this week,there is now an element of urgency in place.

It is fair to say that the number,and scale,of issues connected with the loss of the 10% has been shown to be greater than either side had originally considered.

The chairperson of these procedings has already noted this,but nonetheless feels the LRC process can still produce results.

Some additional issues also have added to the urgency of the case,such as the increased demand for Public Transport occurring at a far greater pace than originally thought.

It should also be noted that the retirement of the NTA's former Chief Executive,Gerry Murphy and the appointment of his successor,Anne Graham brings with it a period of accquaintance which can sometimes lead to small but important alterations in negotiating stance....

cdebru · 21-01-2015 12:30am

devnull wrote: »

I'd just like to see a document from an objective source or signed off by parties from all sides, the reason is if you have one party on one side and the other party on the other side, generally each others notes are not going to be the most trustworthy of sources on either side since they will support each others wishes.

EG: The Unions report on it may very well say as you determine, but you know the NTA's report may say totally different since it is from a different point of view, so I tend not to really rely on one report, especially when it comes from a party that isn't going to be objective. What I'd prefer to see is either an independent report, Labour Court or suchlike, or both sides of the story where possible.

Of course it could be that the unions are being untruthful and gave a completely false account , and that the NTA were able to answer all of the questions asked of them ( it would be odd that they postponed the closing date for interest in tendering if that were the case).

Anyway I was only confirming that poggyones account of the the NTA discussions were pretty much in line with the unions account, since these discussions are not public it is difficult to verify what was or wasn't said by anyone other than to say this is what one side claims happened.

_Kaiser_ · 22-01-2015 1:21pm

On this whole thing about ticket machines being wiped and transactions erased, yet LEAP tickets still being deducted. I'm curious from a technical perspective how DB aren't paid if that's so.

Presumably...

- Customer uses LEAP ticket to pay fare
- Machine deducts fare amount from the card and records the transaction itself
- At some point an upload is done and this is then matched against the customer's account which updates their balance accordingly

If the machine was wiped...

- Yes, there'd be no record of the transactions.. BUT would the customer's account not have to be credited back the fare as there's nothing to verify the transaction?
- Why then is there not massive issues with LEAP balances if this problem with the machines is so widespread? (Maybe there is?)

I'm probably missing something. Do the machine up/downloads have to be done manually?

devnull · 22-01-2015 1:35pm

There is no such thing as a leap account really, the balance is not sorted on any account, it is stored on the card itself.

However that does not explain how the balances on leapcard.ie update if there is no way for the transaction to get back to the leap card website

_Kaiser_ · 22-01-2015 1:49pm

devnull wrote: »

There is no such thing as a leap account really, the balance is not sorted on any account, it is stored on the card itself.

However that does not explain how the balances on leapcard.ie update if there is no way for the transaction to get back to the leap card website

Yes sorry that's what I was getting at

But if it's all handled on the card itself then that explains why the actual balances are correct.

Unless.. when the card is NEXT used, it's updated on the DB machine and then uploaded later on after all? (assuming that 2nd machine doesn't fail)

AlekSmart · 23-01-2015 12:09am

devnull wrote: »

There is no such thing as a leap account really, the balance is not sorted on any account, it is stored on the card itself.

However that does not explain how the balances on leapcard.ie update if there is no way for the transaction to get back to the leap card website

There appears to be quite a bit of misconception as to Leapcard system operation.

The main source of failed transactions,ie: ones which BAC will NOT get paid for are machine read errors which will flag on the Wayfafer Screen as "Failed Update".

The problem is when these failures occur at peak times and the cardholder has passed through in the throng,it can be largely impossible to get them back.(Most Leapcard holders do not automatically wait for the green lights to display,indicating a valid transaction)

The issue of the TIM being disconnected and rebooted,whilst highly undesireable,does not automatically erase pre-existing Leapcard transactions,but does throw the reconcilliation process somewhat out of kilter.

bk · 23-01-2015 10:32am

As a software engineer, it is clear to me that no money is being lost here by Dublin Bus * by rebooted ticket machines.

We can clearly see that all transactions are making it online which clearly means the data is available on the NTA's Leap database and therefore DB most be getting paid based on that.

One of either two things are happening:

1) The transactions aren't lost between reboots. I think this is the more likely. I already think the DB ticket machines are awful, but I'd be shocked to hear that they have no or insufficient non volatile memory to store the transactions and all transactions are being stored in RAM only! While possible, that would be terrible design and very shocking.

Non volatile memory is like the SD card in your camera/phone. It doesn't require power to maintain it's memory, it survives, reboots etc.

2) If it is the case that the transactions are only being stored in RAM! Then this is probably what is happening.

We know that at least your 5 last transactions are stored on the Leap card (a bus driver can optionally give you a ticket with them printed on it if you ask). Each one of these transactions has a unique ID. So what is probably happening is:

- Every time you present your leap card to the ticket machine, not only does it add a new transaction to your card and reduce your balance, but it also reads the last 5 transactions off your card (just in case).
- When the bus returns to the depot, all 5 transactions from all cards are uploaded from the bus to the servers
- The server software looks at the unique transaction id and check if it has already been stored in the database or not. If not it gets added and accounted for.
Thus DB would still get the fare even if the machines failed and lost the transaction information.

Either way given that all transactions are being recorded online, you can guarantee that DB are getting paid for them.

bk · 23-01-2015 10:35am

AlekSmart wrote: »

The main source of failed transactions,ie: ones which BAC will NOT get paid for are machine read errors which will flag on the Wayfafer Screen as "Failed Update".

Which is the fault of the really poor ticket machines and readers purchased by Dublin Bus.

This usually happens because the leap card isn't being read fast enough by the ticket machine and the customer has already moved on.

If cards were read as quickly as the Oyster card is in London, then it wouldn't be an issue.

Hopefully new DB ticket machines will sort this.

AlekSmart · 23-01-2015 10:46pm

bk wrote: »

Which is the fault of the really poor ticket machines and readers purchased by Dublin Bus.

This usually happens because the leap card isn't being read fast enough by the ticket machine and the customer has already moved on.

If cards were read as quickly as the Oyster card is in London, then it wouldn't be an issue.

Hopefully new DB ticket machines will sort this.

The TfL standard is 300Ms transaction time.
I understand the Leapcard transaction time is 500Ms...however this would appear to be contradicted by Leapcard's own recommendation to allow 1 SECOND for a validation.

This really is like returning to the Bianconi Carriage days....1 SECOND is not a viable option in my opinion.

It should be noted that the Wayfarer TGX 150 continues to be a very stable and popular platform,but it is being pushed to it's limits to cater for the differing demands of cash and secure protocols demanded by Leap.

Roll on Wayfarer 200.....:) (or whatever

)

Dublin Bus stages

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