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UK: Battery-powered intercity trains possible, says government study.

  • 04-02-2013 2:06pm
    #1
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭


    If for some an intercity express will always resemble an oversized toy then this is perhaps just one stage further towards an extravagant childhood dream: a battery-powered train capable of travelling 600 miles on a single charge.

    Such a technology is now possible, if not immediately likely to pull into a local station, according to government-commissioned research. The study was ordered by the Department for Transport with the significantly more serious purpose of examining ways trains could run on difficult-to-electrify lines if fossil fuel prices and environmental worries make diesel power too expensive.

    Didn't Ireland go down this road before? :confused:

    What was the down fall of the Drumm train and why did it not succeed?

    ioi4ug.jpg

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/03/battery-powered-intercity-trains-possible-study?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487


Comments

  • #2
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    One of my old favourites and something which I submitted as my contribution to "Your country, your call".

    The Drumm trains were a success but when the expensive batteries needed renewing they were instead removed and the units became loco hauled. These days with windpower, and plenty of excess electrical capacity existing at night time it's a no-brainer so don't expect the Irish government or CIE to look into it.

    Earlier post on Drumm train here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66088042&postcount=1


  • #3
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    One of my old favourites and something which I submitted as my contribution to "Your country, your call".

    The Drumm trains were a success but when the expensive batteries needed renewing they were instead removed and the units became loco hauled. These days with windpower, and plenty of excess electrical capacity existing at night time it's a no-brainer so don't expect the Irish government or CIE to look into it.

    Earlier post on Drumm train here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66088042&postcount=1

    The running cost per mile on the Drumm cars was somewhat more than steam engines; it far exceeded that of diesel engines on similar trips and links. What worked in it's favour were the fuel shortages during the "Emergency" bar for electricity; this allowed for services to continue on the line while releasing coal and oil for other hard pressed services. It had proved for it to work but the economics at the time didn't make sense.

    For a battery powered service on longer hauled services to succeed, the batteries will need to be monstrous sized and a lot of stops for charging will be needed. They were tried on Tralee branch services at one point and some tests happened on mainline rails at speed but they struggled and in at least a few cases the battery gave out and a rescue tender had to save the day. It may work on a slower line with a lot of stations en route but it will be a big ask for it to work on most limited stop services. Another issue to consider is that todays rolling stock weighs a lot more than the bodywork of older carriages; this will affect performances adversely.


  • #4
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,006 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Losty read the article, they have already done the maths.

    You need an eight ton battery to go 600 miles with a standard UK intercity train.

    So you could probably get away with a 3 ton battery for Cork/Belfast to Dublin.

    However the report found that the very high battery replacement cost works against it. You need diesel prices over twice as high as current numbers to make it reasonable.

    Another option is to electrify most of the line, except hard to do parts like tunnels and bridges and use a small battery to cross those sections.

    Certainly an interesting report as this will be an issue IR will have to face in 30 to 40 years from now when the Mark 4's and 22k's will need replacing and Irish Rail will have to decide if they will electrify or not.


  • #5
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    One of my old favourites and something which I submitted as my contribution to "Your country, your call".

    The Drumm trains were a success but when the expensive batteries needed renewing they were instead removed and the units became loco hauled. These days with windpower, and plenty of excess electrical capacity existing at night time it's a no-brainer so don't expect the Irish government or CIE to look into it.

    Earlier post on Drumm train here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66088042&postcount=1

    It looks like there will be plenty of electricity around ok., so much in fact according to recent news, that we will be exporting it to the UK when these midland wind farms come on stream. No reason why replacement battery packs could not be exchanged quickly at intermediate stations either, which could dramatically decrease the on board weight, and also have fast charging third rails.


  • #6
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    bk wrote: »
    Losty read the article, they have already done the maths.

    You need an eight ton battery to go 600 miles with a standard UK intercity train.

    So you could probably get away with a 3 ton battery for Cork/Belfast to Dublin.

    However the report found that the very high battery replacement cost works against it. You need diesel prices over twice as high as current numbers to make it reasonable.

    Another option is to electrify most of the line, except hard to do parts like tunnels and bridges and use a small battery to cross those sections.

    Certainly an interesting report as this will be an issue IR will have to face in 30 to 40 years from now when the Mark 4's and 22k's will need replacing and Irish Rail will have to decide if they will electrify or not.

    I did read it. It equates to a research group talking about using a fuel source to power a train which has not been built let alone tried by them. Pun intended, there isn't a lot of fuel to this report until a train is built to service specifications and it's put to the test in service over a long period of time. The Drumm cars was a new technology at the time spent about 5 years in heavy road testing before it was found capable for commerical use for short trips. As this new one is using a different battery type, it will need a lot of fresh tests though I doubt if it will be tested as long.

    As a sidenote, Irish Rail's newest locomotive is battery powered :)


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  • #7
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    What new loco? :confused:


  • #8
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    What new loco? :confused:

    They have a 4 wheel Sculfort battery powered unit that does shunting inside Portlaoise depot. Numbered 621, it's named Tom Lynam after a steam driver who worked out of the station there many years ago. I can't find a photo of same but it's probably similar to this

    0ad16e19afc4d8468b1325664c8698d131f7a038.pjpg


  • #9
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,578 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I think you'll probably see a return to steam before you see battery or electric on Irish lines ...! Seriously I reckon mini gas turbines will be the next "energy efficent " power source ... I know the truck makers have being trialling gas powered steam turbines for years, assume loco makers have been doing the same...
    How many lines would be worth electrifying , cork Dublin probably not worth doing...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #10
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    bk wrote: »

    Another option is to electrify most of the line, except hard to do parts like tunnels and bridges and use a small battery to cross those sections.

    a flywheel would do the same job for less.(á lá Souther Region BR straight electric locos...classes 70 and 71


  • #11
    Stonewolf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Stonewolf


    Markcheese wrote: »
    How many lines would be worth electrifying

    All of them. Rail investment must be considered over a very long term in which case a line that takes 30 to 40 years to return on the electrification costs is entirely worth doing and ones that take longer can still be seen as a viable choice in the balance especially for stock conformity reasons.

    This long term view is one of the reasons rail suffers under political management, one of whose benefits is that the government can throw money at its trainset and justify it on social grounds. Our problem is that while electrifying would be a social benefit our politicians won't see it that way and while it would make long term economic and operational sense the railways don't have the luxury of self-governance.


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  • #12
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,578 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Stonewolf wrote: »

    All of them. Rail investment must be considered over a very long term in which case a line that takes 30 to 40 years to return on the electrification costs is entirely worth doing and ones that take longer can still be seen as a viable choice in the balance especially for stock conformity reasons.

    This long term view is one of the reasons rail suffers under political management, one of whose benefits is that the government can throw money at its trainset and justify it on social grounds. Our problem is that while electrifying would be a social benefit our politicians won't see it that way and while it would make long term economic and operational sense the railways don't have the luxury of self-governance.

    Wow , I doubt a privatised ir (even if it was running hyper efficently and brilliantly managed) could survive under a mountain
    of debt that large....
    The same argument is used to push new nuclear power plants and the last company proposing to build them in Britain just pulled out... 40 years is too long to wait for a return on investment.....I assume most rail lines will be gone before then !!

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #13
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i don't think there is sufficent traffic tio justify full electrification. Dublin suburban might justify it


  • #14
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    corktina wrote: »
    i don't think there is sufficent traffic tio justify full electrification. Dublin suburban might justify it
    I think Dublin suburban and (in cooperation with NIR and the NI Executive) up the east coast to Belfast, all at 1500Vdc (same as current DART setup).

    I would then like to see Cork, Waterford and Galway suburban services (created, then ) electrified along the same lines and eventually a link up of all cities. Ireland is small enough that 1500Vdc is acceptable nationwide. It's unfortunate that DART didn't use 25kVac but no point crying over spilled milk. They had their reasons at the time and Belgium gets by fine with 1500Vdc (afaik) nationwide.

    I don't think there are any particularly difficult to electrify stretches in Ireland to be honest.


  • #15
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Some quick back of the cigarette packet calculations r/e battery train. Power required for say a six car 22,000 type EMU - just under 1,200 kw. 15 Nissan Leaf type Lithium battery packs @ 80 KW max output should supply that - certainly loads of room underneath the train for them. Battery weight 5 tonnes. Third rail for acceleration, regenerative braking, fast charging and gradients. Battery for the rest.

    The idea has already been tested in the field with Drumm trains. Battery technology has increased in leaps and bounds since then. I would say engineering wise, there are no reasons why it wouldn't work, but would it be superior and cheaper than mains ?


  • #16
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    steamengine wrote: »
    .

    The idea has already been tested in the field with Drumm trains. Battery technology has increased in leaps and bounds since then. I would say engineering wise, there are no reasons why it wouldn't work, but would it be superior and cheaper than mains ?

    It's a different type of battery cell proposed here so it will require fresh testing on a large scale to see if it works and if so how it will perform under working conditions. Drumm's battery had a lot of research and testing before it was trialled to move a train; it was ages before it got to the stage where it was ready to haul timetabled trains on a daily basis. Doubtless it will will work but how well and how economically it turns out to be is another story.


  • #17
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Markcheese wrote: »
    I think you'll probably see a return to steam before you see battery or electric on Irish lines ...! Seriously I reckon mini gas turbines will be the next "energy efficent " power source ... I know the truck makers have being trialling gas powered steam turbines for years, assume loco makers have been doing the same...
    How many lines would be worth electrifying , cork Dublin probably not worth doing...
    Turbines tend to have an optimum speed range and so are good for steady operation not changing speeds and loads.

    Canada had some gas turbine trains back when fuel was cheap.
    Diesel is more flexible.

    If steam comes back it will come as turbine not as pistons, possible as a hybird



    Lithium batteries are a no-no , too expensive and you don't want to be there if there is a fire , Boeing's dreamliners are grounded etc.

    600 mile on a charge ?
    DART lines are already electrified so you could just electrify the other terminating stations (and bring a pair of jump leads)

    a combined cycle gas turbine or steam turbine running on just about any fuel could be used to recharge the battery on the go and at stations so would be speced at a lower power than the electric motors.

    back in the day in the US had some steam turbines with powdered coal loaded in containers , if only someone could figure out how to burn powdered coal in a gas turbine


  • #18
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    The running cost per mile on the Drumm cars was somewhat more than steam engines; it far exceeded that of diesel engines on similar trips and links. What worked in it's favour were the fuel shortages during the "Emergency" bar for electricity; this allowed for services to continue on the line while releasing coal and oil for other hard pressed services. It had proved for it to work but the economics at the time didn't make sense.
    During the war the Swiss had electric steam engines.

    Steam engines with big immersion heaters running of hydroelectric overhead lines.


  • #19
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    During the war the Swiss had electric steam engines.

    Steam engines with big immersion heaters running of hydroelectric overhead lines.

    what a pointless exercise, why not just electric? It's not like they didn't have them anyway. Though I would assume maybe, short term cheap conversions of coal fired?

    To me battery trains just don't make sense, the cost and enviroment impact of heavy duty batteries (and all the various metals required) just doesn't seem to be worth it over cables or third rail, never mind oil burners.


  • #20
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    what a pointless exercise, why not just electric? It's not like they didn't have them anyway. Though I would assume maybe, short term cheap conversions of coal fired?

    To me battery trains just don't make sense, the cost and enviroment impact of heavy duty batteries (and all the various metals required) just doesn't seem to be worth it over cables or third rail, never mind oil burners.

    i imagine the idea is you raise a head of steam under the wires and are then free to shunt elsewhere whilst it lasts...


  • #21
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    what a pointless exercise, why not just electric? It's not like they didn't have them anyway. Though I would assume maybe, short term cheap conversions of coal fired?

    To me battery trains just don't make sense, the cost and enviroment impact of heavy duty batteries (and all the various metals required) just doesn't seem to be worth it over cables or third rail, never mind oil burners.
    During the war .... there wasn't much importing of fossil fuel and they had already electrified a lot of the lines

    if you think of battery trains as hybrids it starts to make some sense , some shunting locomotives are like that


    Wait a minute. We can just shut off the power.
    No such luck. It's solar power.
    Solar power. When will people learn.


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  • #22
    lanjppd
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭lanjppd


    Hallo Drumm fans,

    as of now 25.01.15, Bombardier are preparing their answer to the Drumm train to run for 6 weeks on the Manningtree-Harwich Town Branch.

    It is a standard (Class 319?) EMU from East Anglia with the latest kinds of accumulators slung underneath with rafts. It charges from the 25 KV OHLE which the Drumm could not do, and has a range of 96 kms on battery.

    For one hour on battery it needs two hours charging, but this is helped by regenerative braking also being used to charge.

    It can do 160 kph, the last Drumm train (No 5?) could do 96 kph. The picture above is not of the last Drumm train. I travelled with this several times with my parents. It was a much more modern design, rather like the last LMS main-line coaches that entered service, and the driver's cab apart from the windows was completely "rounded off".

    Perhaps Bombardier could convert a few of the DART EMUs to their new system? then further electrification on OHLE would be superfluous. Bi-mode EMUs from Dundalk to Wicklow (rejuvenate the former goods station?) now possible

    I would love to know why CIE / IE have not got wind of the new Bombardier development.

    lanjppd
    Greven, Germany
    25.01.15


  • #23
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,174 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    QUOTE=lanjppd;93997730]Wicklow (rejuvenate the former goods station?) now possible[/QUOTE]

    if its the station i think your talking about in wicklow the tracks were lifted to it i believe. only the current station is open which was technically wicklow junction i think.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #24
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    It's a class 379. I hope they go nowhere near the 8100s, those units are far superior than anything Bombardier could build

    Bombardier do very little in the way of adapations apart from the odd token unit and generally want everyone to take some little changed variant of the electrostar/turbostar family for almost every tender which is why they have lost a lot of tenders in the UK over the last few years.

    Siemens have overtook them and generally have tried to offer customised solutions and different products for different needs and also generally have higher build quality and reliability so in recent years have been taking a lot of orders from Bombardier.

    Bombardier did claim that they were losing a lot of jobs in the UK and that too many contracts were going to Germany, that may be true, but the simple fact is they just didn't offer a good enough product at the end of the day or be competitive enough with their bids. The British trains for British Railways is just a smokescreen if you ask me.


  • #25
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,578 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Is anyone doing a battery operated tram? Slower speeds ,more stops so regenerative braking ( and possible induction charging ?) and would make city tram lines easier and cheaper to build if you've no overhead lines -
    But would the size of the batteries be impractical ? Would have thought hybrid Luas's in Dublin would make more sense than overhead lines -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #26
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    I don't see much utility in sending battery trains far from Dublin, but if a grant could be got to refit the 8200s they could be operated from Bray to Maynooth as an interim measure to electrification.


  • #27
    lanjppd
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭lanjppd


    Battery opeated trams?

    Well not quite, but the MVV in München (Munich) are now experimenting with
    trams equipped with rechargable batteries which can cross the famous park called Munich English Garden, where the city fathers have objected to OHLE on aesthetic grounds.

    However, at present they can only just do this stretch (and back - I think), and then have the batteries re-charged when operating with the pantograph raised.

    This is a stretch of about 1.5 kms, I believe. I lived in Munich 1975-1980, but that was not technically possible then. Just diesel buses where trams dared not go!

    This system seems to work well, but I have not yet seen a suggestion that longer stretches under battery powered are being aimed at in the Munich area

    lanjppd
    Germany.


  • #28
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    It's a different type of battery cell proposed here so it will require fresh testing on a large scale to see if it works and if so how it will perform under working conditions. Drumm's battery had a lot of research and testing before it was trialled to move a train; it was ages before it got to the stage where it was ready to haul timetabled trains on a daily basis. Doubtless it will will work but how well and how economically it turns out to be is another story.

    its just a battery pack built with lithium ion cells, plenty of work has been done with these cells

    if they have done their homework its not hard to build a good battery electric train

    won't be long before we see some good electric buses too


  • #29
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69




  • #30
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    nokia69 wrote: »
    its just a battery pack built with lithium ion cells, plenty of work has been done with these cells

    if they have done their homework its not hard to build a good battery electric train

    won't be long before we see some good electric buses too
    Better to keep electrification infrastructure and not bother with batteries (for electric trains, trams and trolleybuses), especially if the traffic volume is there. No matter how "good" you can make a battery, it is still subject to sudden discharge which will strand you; and disposal of any battery is a fraught process that can get environmentally messy.


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  • #31
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    MGWR wrote: »
    Better to keep electrification infrastructure and not bother with batteries (for electric trains, trams and trolleybuses), especially if the traffic volume is there.
    If traffic volume is there then electrification is what already happens.

    You could go a map of UK / Europe and find out what distances are between leaving electrification and arriving in a main station or where commuter trains terminate, then work out where charging points should be. A bit like alternative emergency airports for ETOPS for aircraft.

    And it need not be charging points, back in the days of steam water could be picked up from troughs en-route.

    How far can flywheels go ?
    How quickly can you recharge


    IR have enough south facing land to be able to install a good few solar panels along the tracks but that's a different topic.


  • #32
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    Getting stuck between charging points in the case of sudden discharge is the problem.

    And there's no matching the potential horsepower even from on-board diesels.

    Aside from the problem of inverters/rectifiers with solar panel generation, how much sunshine does Ireland get in order to make solar generation viable anyhow? Not even Germany relies on solar generation to the degree it touts.


  • #33
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    MGWR wrote: »
    Getting stuck between charging points in the case of sudden discharge is the problem.
    backup diesel , just like they do on nuclear submarines. Or use turbines as they are a lot lighter


    quote]Aside from the problem of inverters/rectifiers with solar panel generation, how much sunshine does Ireland get in order to make solar generation viable anyhow? Not even Germany relies on solar generation to the degree it touts.[/QUOTE]it was an aside , no one is suggesting running trains off solar. just that they have a lot of land

    then again since the dart runs on DC you don't need inverters or rectifiers, just wire up 1,500V of panels and wire them to the overhead :pac:


  • #34
    nokia69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,050 ✭✭✭nokia69


    MGWR wrote: »
    Better to keep electrification infrastructure and not bother with batteries (for electric trains, trams and trolleybuses), especially if the traffic volume is there. No matter how "good" you can make a battery, it is still subject to sudden discharge which will strand you; and disposal of any battery is a fraught process that can get environmentally messy.

    good pack design can stop sudden discharge

    and lithium ion batteries are easy to recycle with no environmental problems


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