Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

Subpopulus · 12-07-2015 11:30pm

Hmmm. I would think that the N28 would have to be on that list, given its importance in connecting a major port to the National Road network.

marno21 · 12-07-2015 11:44pm

Subpopulus wrote: »

Hmmm. I would think that the N28 would have to be on that list, given its importance in connecting a major port to the National Road network.

Definitely.

Take out the 3 projects from the last PPP programme, two of which are at tender and will be starting construction in the next year, and the other which is going through a legal obstacle case and constant debates about how much it's needed and you're left with 5 schemes

* M21/N69 is being fully EU funded, and whilst an Adare bypass will make some happy, the fact is it wouldn't be done only for the fact that a much needed port access road is being snakily used to gain an Adare bypass.

* M7 widening is good to see and hopefully this includes J9A Osberstown at Millenium Park. Along with this and the M11 scheme, an education campaign will have to be launched about how to use 3 lane motorways/dual carraigeways, otherwise both projects will be wasted.

* M11 widening scheme will eliminate some delays from the M11 merge to the Bray North exit, however this project is a tiny one requiring little funding and is minature compared to the major projects in the last PPP programme. Not sure how much of a difference it'll make if the Bray North exit is already over capacity.

* N5 Ballaghadeeren-Longford should be accompanied by at least 3 other projects along the N2, N3, N4, N12, N13, N14, N15, N16, N20, N22, N23, N24 or N25. Long stretches of poor national primary route that are in major need of upgrading. Only one of these on the list is very, very disappointing.

* N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle: nothing new to be said here. should've been freeflow from the start. North Ring will be needed soon after though as it will put extra pressure on the N8 Lower Glanmire Road and also Douglas flyover, N28 and the Mahon exit on the N40.

Leonard Hofstadter · 13-07-2015 12:29am

This is really crap if this is true. The ones announced several years ago (when the economy was much worse) were much more expensive and did more. Plus, three of the 'new' schemes were from the last announcement (but being recycled for the next election) - that's just pathetic and is the kind of thing FF would have done when in power.

There isn't a single extra mile of new motorway being proposed, the only motorway projects are widening existing motorways, which will be a complete and utter waste given the inability of we Irish to drive in the correct lane (which is the leftmost one for those unaware). I suppose knowing Ireland the three lane motorways will only have a speed limit of 100 km/h as well like what happens on the M50, a crazy state of affairs going backwards with lower speed limits rather than moving forwards with proper speed limits.

I just hope the real thing will have more than that, especially as Simon Coveney was saying recently that the M28 would be done 'much sooner' than the 6-7 years currently being proposed.

spacetweek · 13-07-2015 12:00pm

Sponge Bob submitted the list and he's usually spot on for the info - however he does say the above 5 are the only ones he can confirm, implying there may be more. Wait a bit longer.

spacetweek · 13-07-2015 12:20pm

captainspeed wrote: »

This is really crap if this is true. The ones announced several years ago (when the economy was much worse) were much more expensive and did more. Plus, three of the 'new' schemes were from the last announcement (but being recycled for the next election) - that's just pathetic and is the kind of thing FF would have done when in power.

Agreed.

captainspeed wrote: »

There isn't a single extra mile of new motorway being proposed, the only motorway projects are widening existing motorways, which will be a complete and utter waste given the inability of we Irish to drive in the correct lane (which is the leftmost one for those unaware). I suppose knowing Ireland the three lane motorways will only have a speed limit of 100 km/h as well like what happens on the M50, a crazy state of affairs going backwards with lower speed limits rather than moving forwards with proper speed limits.

I think the M21 Adare-Rathkeale might be motorway.
You haven't given a reason not to widen motorways - just a case for more education.
100k limits aren't crazy, they are necessary when you would rarely be able to go higher anyway due to traffic density, when you increase the number of lanes and therefore the amount of weaving (the only source of danger on a motorway) and when the alignment is poor. In any case the M11 at Fassaroe is winding and full of entrances and exits and should have a limit way lower than 100. The M7 Naas-Newbridge will probably stay at 120.

annfield1978 · 13-07-2015 12:28pm

Surely N5 Westport to Turlough will be in the mix?

spacetweek · 13-07-2015 12:46pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

Surely N5 Westport to Turlough will be in the mix?

Yes - forgot about that - I thought that was the next N5 scheme?

KCAccidental · 14-07-2015 1:38pm

reading through the thread, this was also from Sponge Bob

I asked my contact about the N28 and the answer was that it may be bundled with Dunkettle (or a 'Phase 1 N28' as far as the Carrigaline Roundabout at any rate) so it was perhaps not listed on its own because of that.

After the Carrigaline Roundabout the attitude is that the port can pay some of the cost of widening to 2+2 if that is ever required ....and the suspicion is the stretch from Carrigaline Roundabout to the Port is just fine the way it is, the bottleneck is north of the Carrigaline Roundabout.

Both Dunkettle and the N28 qualify for 'dibs' on EU Transport/Cohesion funding at around 20-30% of the overall ESTIMATED project cost...but most likely no more than 25% of the total estimated cost. If they later drop Carrigaline - Ringaskiddy 'Phase 2' they get the same amount of EU money anyway it seems.

Seemingly EU Transport/Cohesion funding will not be disbursed for Ireland before 2018 earliest simply because the government made no request for earlier funding. Most EU Transport/Cohesion funding requested out to 2020 is for Dart Underground and only the Dunkettle/N28 and Adare/Foynes projects will qualify for roads funding this side of 2021 when the proposed Medium Term Capital Plan ends.

some of that would make sense.

loyatemu · 15-07-2015 11:07am

If they're going to do the M11 hopefully they'll also do the planned improvement works as far as J8 (Kilmac) - these include distributor roads on both sides to allow the closure of a whole load of exits and private accesses including J6A (Enniskerry).

road_high · 15-07-2015 12:30pm

tony1980 wrote: »

I don't think I can continue using the M7 with the way things are currently and it's only going to get worse, back to using the train for me I think!

I only use it maybe a week or less and it just drives me demented. Pity anyone that has to endure that road everyday. But as I said before, poor lane discipline is a huge constraint.

tony1980 · 15-07-2015 3:29pm

road_high wrote: »

I only use it maybe a week or less and it just drives me demented. Pity anyone that has to endure that road everyday. But as I said before, poor lane discipline is a huge constraint.

Poor lane disciplane is a major factor, the amount of times I see people coasting along in the right hand side lane with nothing in the left lane next to them is crazy and they are completely oblivious to what they are doing!

Deedsie · 15-07-2015 6:28pm

tony1980 wrote: »

Poor lane disciplane is a major factor, the amount of times I see people coasting along in the right hand side lane with nothing in the left lane next to them is crazy and they are completely oblivious to what they are doing!

Well most Irish people have never been officially taught or tested on how to use this type of road, that is no excuse of course but it is worth pointing out? AGS don't police people who drive incorrectly on the stretch. It is absolutely head wrecking that the Kerry site was built before this stretch of road was upgraded.

the dark phantom · 15-07-2015 6:37pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Well most Irish people have never been officially taught or tested on how to use this type of road, that is no excuse of course but it is worth pointing out? AGS don't police people who drive incorrectly on the stretch. It is absolutely head wrecking that the Kerry site was built before this stretch of road was upgraded.

The sad thing is anyone with half a brain shouldn't have to be "officially taught or tested" to use dual carriageways or motorways. It should be obvious to keep left.

Irish_rat · 17-07-2015 2:40pm

Lets not get too excited but I can see some being prioritized:

N69/N21 Foynes-Limerick

N28: Cork - Ringaskiddy

N56: Glenties - Dungloe (absolutely horrific road)

N86: Tralee - Dingle improvement scheme

M7 & M11: Widening to 3 lanes.

M8/N25: Dunkettle Interchange upgrade

I'd like to think either the N4 or N17 will see some upgrade in places too. Sligo to Castlebaldwin should be in with a shout. Colooney to Tubbercurry should be another.

Obviously it is of national importance to get the M20 and Galway Outer Bypass done but I reckon a few of the above will be done before them unfortunately.

As others have said the M20 should be split into 2 sections. ~90km is such a huge project to get going all at once as it is proving to be. The northern section needs to be fastracked as Mallow-Cork is bearable.

Leonard Hofstadter · 19-07-2015 12:47am

Sponge Bob implies the M28 WILL be included, but only as far as Carrigaline. There is EU funding for this (as we know) but they'll get the same amount of money if they only go to Carrigaline as they will if they go all the way to Ringaskiddy. Apparently there's no need for a higher capacity road (yet) beyond Carrigaline - I don't fully agree with that, only between the (I think it's called) Shannonpark Roundabout and the N40 is definitely being done.
Also he mentions the difference between PPPs and Capital Expenditure, so it's possible stuff like the Macroom bypass and other schemes will make it into the official announcement as well.

Although what's been mentioned so far is rather underwhelming (to say the least), I am really, really pleased that Adare is at long long last being done (even though it's very snakey the way they're doing it), it will make an enormous difference. In fairness the N21 needs to be totally upgraded between adare and Abbeyfeale - under capacity and full of bottlenecks. Getting Adare done will be a good start, especially if the bypass is indeed going to be motorway.

AugustusMinimus · 19-07-2015 7:46am

The M28 needs to be done fully. Shanbally needs a bypass. The traffic through there at rush hour is shocking.

Cannot understand doing the M28 only as far as Shannon Park. Crazy decision if true. Another kick up the arse for Cork if true.

Antarctica · 19-07-2015 8:36am

What are the chances of the M11 being widened to three lanes on the bypass of Bray? It's a massive gridlock area where the M50 and N11 Merge.

Probably plenty of room to do it from Sandyford as far as the fassaroe exit but then it does get narrower when it downgrades to the N11 before the Bray south exit.

loyatemu · 20-07-2015 12:37pm

Antarctica wrote: »

What are the chances of the M11 being widened to three lanes on the bypass of Bray? It's a massive gridlock area where the M50 and N11 Merge.

Probably plenty of room to do it from Sandyford as far as the fassaroe exit but then it does get narrower when it downgrades to the N11 before the Bray south exit.

there's a wide grass median all along that section, so probably space to upgrade to 3+3.

20-07-2015 10:17pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

Surely N5 Westport to Turlough will be in the mix?

Yes this will have started groundworks for spring next year. Fencing contractors will be starting soon and the CPO's are ongoing.

marno21 · 05-08-2015 6:53pm

Is the N5 scheme planned for this programme down for a 2+2 upgrade?

Irish_rat · 06-08-2015 5:39am

marno21 wrote: »

Is the N5 scheme planned for this programme down for a 2+2 upgrade?

Yep, from what I gather any National Primary's will be 2+2.

marno21 · 06-08-2015 8:32pm

Irish_rat wrote: »

Yep, from what I gather any National Primary's will be 2+2.

Which begs the question, why was the Ballaghderreen bypass opened as S2 only 11 months ago if schemes either side of it are planned as 2+2?

D Trent · 06-08-2015 8:39pm

marno21 wrote: »

Which begs the question, why was the Ballaghderreen bypass opened as S2 only 11 months ago if schemes either side of it are planned as 2+2?

Think the Ballaghaderreen bypass was designed/planned a lot longer than Tralee or Longford was

spacetweek · 07-08-2015 9:05pm

I think in practice they will choose a standard to build to on a case-by-case basis rather than making everything dual carriageways. Fair bit of Mayo-only N5 traffic and less heading to and from Longford and Dublin, source.

spacetweek · 10-08-2015 9:34pm

I certainly hope that 6-laning and rebuilding of the N11 at Fassaroe in Wicklow is something they do in the new programme.
Just drove through it there at the weekend for the first time in a while, horrendous. Phantom traffic jam the whole way through, twisty, and loads of properties right next to the road.

marno21 · 10-08-2015 10:31pm

Judging by Sponge Bob's post, it will be widened as far as J6 at Fassaroe, so only the M11 part.

Not sure what can be done with the N11 from J6 to J14 due to Glen of the Downs, Kilmacanogue and all the private entrances

mydiscworld · 26-08-2015 9:19am

Any sign of this announcement being made?

spacetweek · 26-08-2015 5:37pm

mydiscworld wrote: »

Any sign of this announcement being made?

Not till well into September, there's a spat between Labour and FG.

Leonard Hofstadter · 27-08-2015 12:21am

Yeah that's what I heard, FG want more money to be spent on roads than Labour do as they want the money to be spent on school buildings and stuff like that. Basically there's only so much money available and there's a spat over how much of it is for FG Departments (Justice wants a fair whack of money to update various Garda IT systems) and how much of it is for Labour Departments.

marno21 · 06-09-2015 12:14pm

News on this finally in this weeks Mail on Sunday.

www.pressdisplay.com/pressdisplay/iphone/homepage.aspx#_article1025323783

Plan so far seems to be M20, M7 widening, various N4/N5/N17 schemes, surprisingly centred around Co. Mayo

joujoujou · 06-09-2015 12:17pm

Link broken.

munchkin_utd · 16-09-2015 8:38am

joujoujou wrote: »

Link broken.

does this work.
http://www.pressreader.com/ireland/the-irish-mail-on-sunday/20150906/281487865120038/TextView

Article states a "part build" of the M20 is planned rather than a full upgrade, whatever that may mean.

The irish political solution would be to Dual the croom bypass and then you have a section of the M20 delivered.

(precidence for this is the endless list of dualed and widened stretches of road over flat ground done on the cheap in the pre motorway days to make an "impressive" road for consituents to marvel at, but shying away from the expensive newbuild of by-passes or through difficult territory which would make a far bigger difference to your journey)

AugustusMinimus · 16-09-2015 9:29am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

does this work.
http://www.pressreader.com/ireland/the-irish-mail-on-sunday/20150906/281487865120038/TextView

Article states a "part build" of the M20 is planned rather than a full upgrade, whatever that may mean.

The irish political solution would be to Dual the croom bypass and then you have a section of the M20 delivered.

(precidence for this is the endless list of dualed and widened stretches of road over flat ground done on the cheap in the pre motorway days to make an "impressive" road for consituents to marvel at, but shying away from the expensive newbuild of by-passes or through difficult territory which would make a far bigger difference to your journey)

A decent part build would be to start just south of Mallow and link in with the start of the Croom bypass. Do the other 2 sections after.

That alone would make a monumental difference in the drive.

sonnyblack · 16-09-2015 9:34am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

does this work.
http://www.pressreader.com/ireland/the-irish-mail-on-sunday/20150906/281487865120038/TextView

Article states a "part build" of the M20 is planned rather than a full upgrade, whatever that may mean.

The irish political solution would be to Dual the croom bypass and then you have a section of the M20 delivered.

(precidence for this is the endless list of dualed and widened stretches of road over flat ground done on the cheap in the pre motorway days to make an "impressive" road for consituents to marvel at, but shying away from the expensive newbuild of by-passes or through difficult territory which would make a far bigger difference to your journey)

Still can't read this link. any chance you could bullet or synopsise the points made. Very interested in M20 items

Vanquished · 16-09-2015 9:53am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

A decent part build would be to start just south of Mallow and link in with the start of the Croom bypass. Do the other 2 sections after.

That alone would make a monumental difference in the drive.

Absolutely. I could never understand why they didn't split the M20 project in to smaller, more deliverable sections. Proceeding with the stretch from the southern tip of the Croom bypass to the Burnfort/Mourneabbey junction to the south of Mallow makes the most sense as these provide relatively straightforward tie-in points.

This portion of the project would take Banogue, Charleville, Buttevant, the Ballybeg bends and Mallow out of the equation. It would also deliver the most benefits in terms of safety and journey time improvements!

L1011 · 16-09-2015 10:00am

Vanquished wrote: »

Absolutely. I could never understand why they didn't split the M20 project in to smaller, more deliverable sections.

At the time, it looked like there was money available for the lot - and smaller sections ends up costing more in total.

munchkin_utd · 16-09-2015 10:05am

Vanquished wrote: »

Absolutely. I could never understand why they didn't split the M20 project in to smaller, more deliverable sections. Proceeding with the stretch from the southern tip of the Croom bypass to the Burnfort/Mourneabbey junction to the south of Mallow makes the most sense as these provide relatively straightforward tie-in points.

This portion of the project would take Banogue, Charleville, Buttevant, the Ballybeg bends and Mallow out of the equation. It would also deliver the most benefits in terms of safety and journey time improvements!

+1.

I cant copy the text off the article as it doesnt allow it. Theres very little in details more than I've typed anyhow, otherwise i'd have mentioned it!

spacetweek · 16-09-2015 3:29pm

Vanquished wrote: »

Absolutely. I could never understand why they didn't split the M20 project in to smaller, more deliverable sections.

Back in 2000, that was exactly what was planned, but it seemed during the boom years that we could just build the lot in one go. Then that never happened and now we have nothing.

joujoujou · 16-09-2015 3:30pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

does this work.
http://www.pressreader.com/ireland/the-irish-mail-on-sunday/20150906/281487865120038/TextView

[...]

Yes, it does. Thanks.

Very annoying way to read the whole thing.

Screenshots if anyone find them more handy:

Vanquished · 16-09-2015 11:59pm

L1011 wrote: »

At the time, it looked like there was money available for the lot - and smaller sections ends up costing more in total.

spacetweek wrote: »

Back in 2000, that was exactly what was planned, but it seemed during the boom years that we could just build the lot in one go. Then that never happened and now we have nothing.

In an ideal world it would've been delivered in one lot however an 80km motorway was always going to be a hugely ambitious project. Sadly the arse fell out of everything just as the preferred route was unveiled in the summer of 2008!

A bit of pragmatism wouldn't have gone a stray. They could have pushed on with at least the planning of the more critical middle portion instead of taking the nuclear option and canning the lot!

munchkin_utd · 17-09-2015 8:20am

no word in that article of the N4 improvements near Sligo which isnt a great sign as it'd be up there on my list of barely touched primary route sections that need fixing.

EDIT: I now see the section from Knock to Tobbercurry is to be fixed, which indeed is great news.

L1011 · 17-09-2015 8:24am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

no word in that article of the N4 improvements near Sligo which isnt a great sign as it'd be up there on my list of barely touched primary route sections that need fixing.

EDIT: I now see the section from Knock to Tobbercurry is to be fixed, which indeed is great news.

The absolute worst bend was done a few years ago as a part 4 scheme. That takes the safety spotlight off it and pushes it down the list unfortunately

munchkin_utd · 17-09-2015 10:13am

L1011 wrote: »

The absolute worst bend was done a few years ago as a part 4 scheme. That takes the safety spotlight off it and pushes it down the list unfortunately

not sure now if its on the backburner after all.

heres the project page which shows it as a live project.
http://www.sligococo.ie/N4/

and they got 3.5million already for 2015 to continue planning and digging for fossils and whatnot!
http://www.sligonewsfile.com/national-roads-authority-announces-2015-sligo-roads-allocation/

so it looks like this isnt mentioned simply as theres no decision to be made, because it is going ahead (slowly) regardless.

Irish_rat · 17-09-2015 11:12am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

EDIT: I now see the section from Knock to Tobbercurry is to be fixed, which indeed is great news.

Fairly substandard road although nowhere near as bad as Tubbercurry to Collooney.

munchkin_utd · 17-09-2015 1:38pm

Irish_rat wrote: »

Fairly substandard road although nowhere near as bad as Tubbercurry to Collooney.

the worst bend on that stretch has cash allocated to be fixed this year.

Chris_5339762 · 17-09-2015 6:01pm

Vanquished wrote: »

In an ideal world it would've been delivered in one lot however an 80km motorway was always going to be a hugely ambitious project. Sadly the arse fell out of everything just as the preferred route was unveiled in the summer of 2008!

A bit of pragmatism wouldn't have gone a stray. They could have pushed on with at least the planning of the more critical middle portion instead of taking the nuclear option and canning the lot!

In an ideal world the M20 (and the Galway bypass) would have been considered part of the "Main interurbans" that were hammered through with a fixed end-2010 opening date.

spacetweek · 17-09-2015 10:20pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

In an ideal world the M20 (and the Galway bypass) would have been considered part of the "Main interurbans" that were hammered through with a fixed end-2010 opening date.

Indeed - that was in fact the plan back in the 2000 road programme.

Leonard Hofstadter · 17-09-2015 11:48pm

I agree with ye, connecting Cork-Limerick-Galway by motorway should have been done at the time the inter urbans to Dublin were being done.

At least there will soon be a proper road between Limerick and Tuam (what a transformation that will be for the west of Ireland and county Galway in particular), but the road between Cork and Limerick is atrocious.

At this stage I don't care what part of the M20 they do first, it's all a pile of dung at the moment but if I had to choose I'd want to see Mallow-Charleville done first.

Bards · 18-09-2015 1:29pm

... and there should be a decent road (2+2, HQDC or mixture) between the Southeast and the Mid-West & West Either the N24 or N80 but one of these routes should be upgraded

BoatMad · 21-09-2015 12:36pm

Has M11 widening fallen through the funding cracks ?

Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

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