Germanwings A320 Crash

sjb25 · 27-03-2015 12:53pm

P_1 wrote: »

That opens up a new can of worms. Should doctor-patient confidentiality be voided in cases like this for certain professions?

It does but suppose it does depend why the doctor wrote him of and what the illness was they don't say all the say is he ripped up doctors note and was wrote of work because of an illness they found all this at his home

kona · 27-03-2015 12:55pm

TheChizler wrote: »

And your post is making a massive assumption at the cost of labeling millions of people as 'mentally weak'.

Here's the facts:

He deliberately crashed a airliner into a mountain, committing mass murder.

The man has mental health issues.

So what am I assuming? I don't think people with mental health problems are suited to certain jobs.

Would you let a blind person drive a bus?

kona · 27-03-2015 12:56pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I really doubt there is a link between Depression and mass murder

There's a link between mental illness and mass murder tho.

Do you think these are the actions of a mentally healthy man?

SpaceTime · 27-03-2015 12:57pm

Depression is one thing and plenty of people are depressed and never cause any issue other than being depressed which could be quite debilitating for them, but it takes a total lack of empathy and a degree of psychopathy to take an entire plane of passengers and crew down with you!

I don't think just labelling depression as a risk is quite enough to be honest. It's a little more than that and I think you have to start looking at how empathetic crew members are, how they feel about the safety of others, what kind of personalities they have etc etc.

ProfessorPlum · 27-03-2015 12:58pm

kona wrote: »

There's a link between mental illness and mass murder tho.

Do you think these are the actions of a mentally healthy man?

What's the link?

Did this guy have it?

Bob24 · 27-03-2015 12:59pm

Dusselddorf court confirmed scrapped doctor's notes were found in his apartment, stating he should have been on sick leave on the day of the crash but not giving details of the medical reason.

ProfessorPlum · 27-03-2015 1:02pm

Thought this press release from the ECA was worth sharing:

PRESS RELEASE

News from the European Cockpit Association

Pilots seek answers to 4U 9525 tragedy
Brussels, 26 March 2015

European pilots are deeply disturbed by the latest turn in the investigation of the tragic Germanwings 4U 9525 crash. The reports of investigators and French prosecutors that this could be a result of a deliberate attempt to destroy the aircraft are shocking and our thoughts are with the victims and their relatives. As trusted professionals, who invest a lifelong career in making air travel safe, this is a very difficult day for us.

We understand that many facts point to one particular theory for the cause of this event. Yet, many questions still remain unanswered at this stage. A key priority for accident investigators – and prosecutors – must be to gather and analyse thoroughly all data, including the technical information about the flight. Accident investigations are complex and time-consuming processes, but they are the only way to grasp and understand completely what has happened. The prevention of future disasters – even more so than establishing blame – is the first priority for both pilots and the travelling public. In pursuing this, the thorough analysis of the Flight Data Recorder will be crucial to verify and shed more light on the situation depicted by the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) data.

We stress the need for unbiased, independent investigation into the factors leading to this accident. The leaking of the CVR data is a serious breach of fundamental and globally accepted international accident investigation rules. The motivation for and consequences of this will need to be addressed. Given the level of pressure this leak has undoubtedly created, the investigation team faces a serious distraction. The required lead of safety investigators appears to have been displaced by prosecutorial considerations. This is highly prejudicial, and an impediment to making aviation safer with lessons from the tragedy.

kona · 27-03-2015 1:03pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

What's the link?

Did this guy have it?

Well I have not seen a person who was healthy and thinking normally execute such a horrendous event.

All I'm saying is there's certain professions that don't go well with mental illness, this is a tragic example of what can happen.

ProfessorPlum · 27-03-2015 1:11pm

kona wrote: »

Well I have not seen a person who was healthy and thinking normally execute such a horrendous event.

All I'm saying is there's certain professions that don't go well with mental illness, this is a tragic example of what can happen.

'Mental Illness' covers a huge array of illness.

1 in 4 people suffer with depression at some stage in their lives.
They don't become mass murderers.

Sociopaths - those who are over represented amoung mass murderers (and high achieving individuals in society) are not mentally ill.

Do you see the problem with your line of thinking?

pfurey101 · 27-03-2015 1:12pm

As expected there are so many ill informed, bigoted and nasty ignorant comments being made about mental health all over Social media - just look at those nasty pages set up all over Facebook. So many with their keyboard in 5th gear and brain in reverse.

This man should not have been on board that plane. He hid and kidded so many and got away with it, but there are so many that should not be allowed anywhere near a keyboard or any other device.

expectationlost · 27-03-2015 1:13pm

how long does it take to become a pilot for large planes for an airline? as opposed to a co-pilot

kona · 27-03-2015 1:13pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

'Mental Illness' covers a huge array of illness.

1 in 4 people suffer with depression at some stage in their lives.
They don't become mass murderers.

Sociopaths - those who are over represented amoung mass murderers (and high achieving individuals in society) are not mentally ill.

Do you see the problem with your line of thinking?

Where did I mention depression specifically?

sjb25 · 27-03-2015 1:15pm

expectationlost wrote: »

how long does it take to become a pilot for large planes for an airline?

Depends how much money you have to spend

ProfessorPlum · 27-03-2015 1:16pm

kona wrote: »

Where did I mention depression specifically?

Where did I say you specifically mentioned depression?

You said this guy had a mental illness - what was it?

kona · 27-03-2015 1:20pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Where did I say you specifically mentioned depression?

You said this guy had a mental illness - what was it?

Then why are you trying to say that i did? I said he obviously has mental issues.

He was declared unfit to fly it seems, ill let the authorities release the info about his mental health state.

No need to get all defensive about it, there's nothing wrong with being ill everybody gets sick, you need to get treatment. When you are fit to return to work happy days.
If your not capable of the job you shouldn't be working , basic human factors ? Do pilots have to do recurrent human factors ?

Lord Trollington · 27-03-2015 1:22pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Thought this press release from the ECA was worth sharing:

PRESS RELEASE

News from the European Cockpit Association

Pilots seek answers to 4U 9525 tragedy
Brussels, 26 March 2015

European pilots are deeply disturbed by the latest turn in the investigation of the tragic Germanwings 4U 9525 crash. The reports of investigators and French prosecutors that this could be a result of a deliberate attempt to destroy the aircraft are shocking and our thoughts are with the victims and their relatives. As trusted professionals, who invest a lifelong career in making air travel safe, this is a very difficult day for us.

We understand that many facts point to one particular theory for the cause of this event. Yet, many questions still remain unanswered at this stage. A key priority for accident investigators – and prosecutors – must be to gather and analyse thoroughly all data, including the technical information about the flight. Accident investigations are complex and time-consuming processes, but they are the only way to grasp and understand completely what has happened. The prevention of future disasters – even more so than establishing blame – is the first priority for both pilots and the travelling public. In pursuing this, the thorough analysis of the Flight Data Recorder will be crucial to verify and shed more light on the situation depicted by the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) data.

We stress the need for unbiased, independent investigation into the factors leading to this accident. The leaking of the CVR data is a serious breach of fundamental and globally accepted international accident investigation rules. The motivation for and consequences of this will need to be addressed. Given the level of pressure this leak has undoubtedly created, the investigation team faces a serious distraction. The required lead of safety investigators appears to have been displaced by prosecutorial considerations. This is highly prejudicial, and an impediment to making aviation safer with lessons from the tragedy.

Plum why is this worth sharing in your opinion?

SpaceTime · 27-03-2015 1:23pm

To be perfectly honest, I think we could get bogged down on the mental illness issue. The problem would have been prevented by a more sensible system for the door!

We have a situation where those doors were retrofitted as a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11. The implications of them are that a single pilot can lock everyone out of the cockpit and crash the plane.

The reason we have two pilots is in case one of them should become incapacitated. Someone could have a heart attack, have a stroke, a mental illness, a brain tumor, a diabetic attack.

fits · 27-03-2015 1:23pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Thought this press release from the ECA was worth sharing:

.[/I]

Honestly, i understand why they are saying this. But the alternative was keeping all families in the dark even with overwhelming evidence already and inevitable leaks and speculation and possibly blame being apportioned to innocent parties eg the captain. I just dont see how they had any other choice only to reveal their line of enquiry at this stage. Much more may come out yet in investigation that will underline their certainty.

kona · 27-03-2015 1:25pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, I think we could get bogged down on the mental illness issue. The problem would have been prevented by a more sensible system for the door!

We have a situation where those doors were retrofitted as a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11. The implications of them are that a single pilot can lock everyone out of the cockpit and crash the plane.

The reason we have two pilots is in case one of them should become incapacitated. Someone could have a heart attack, have a stroke, a mental illness, a brain tumor, a diabetic attack.

This is a result of procedures and rules not being followed or just being poor.
IMO there's nothing wrong with the door.

cnocbui · 27-03-2015 1:26pm

kona wrote: »

The pilot shouldn't have been flying, does mental illness remove personal responsibility?
There's alot of procedures broken here it seems.

As harsh as it is , pilot is not the profession for somebody who was mentally weak.

Looking back over the last few major accidents pilot error is the main reason , I can see things changing big time as regards training and procedure for them.

What major incidents are you referring to - MH17 being shot down by a Russian missile; MH370 vanishing without trace - cause unknown; The AirAsia Flight QZ8501 which is looking like it might be weather related?

ProfessorPlum · 27-03-2015 1:27pm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Plum why is this worth sharing in your opinion?

This the Aviation and Aircraft forum. I thought regulars here would be interested in the ECA - who represent European pilots - views.
I agree with them, as do AAIU investigators I know.

Lord Trollington · 27-03-2015 1:27pm

kona wrote: »

This is a result of procedures and rules not being followed or just being poor.
IMO there's nothing wrong with the door.

There is 100% nothing wrong with the door. It's not an aviation requirement to have 2 persons in the cockpit at all times, although some individual airlines had a procedure where they implemented it themselves. I know Aerlingus certainly do.

What will result from this will be a World Wide requirement for 2 persons to be in a cockpit at all times.

tharmor · 27-03-2015 1:28pm

All u need is internet and a forum to get going... the thread again derailing!

Lord Trollington · 27-03-2015 1:30pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

This the Aviation and Aircraft forum. I thought regulars here would be interested in the ECA - who represent European pilots - views.
I agree with them, as do AAIU investigators I know.

I know you agree with them from sharing the piece. I also know this is the aviation forum, try not to be so condescending in your response even though I may not be a regular poster here.

The reason I asked was that I was looking for your opinion on the piece really, hence why I said in your opinion.

Aerohead · 27-03-2015 1:32pm

For what its worth I think where a person is in charge of a lot of passengers, Plane Train etc and he has a mental issue problem the onus should be on a doctor treating the person to contact his employer directly to say he is giving him a sick note for x amount of days. Then let the company decide if and when he is fit to work after the treatment. Personally I think a person with this kind of problem should not be allowed to work especially flying large amounts of passengers around the place.

Lord Trollington · 27-03-2015 1:33pm

Aerohead wrote: »

For what its worth I think where a person is in charge of a lot of passengers, Plane Train etc and he has a mental issue problem the onus should be on a doctor treating the person to contact his employer directly to say he is giving him a sick note for x amount of days. Then let the company decide if and when he is fit to work after the treatment. Personally I think a person with this kind of problem should not be allowed to work especially flying large amounts of passengers around the place.

Patient/Doctor confidentiality ?

ProfessorPlum · 27-03-2015 1:34pm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I know you agree with them from sharing the piece. I also know this is the aviation forum, try not to be so condescending in your response even though I may not be a regular poster here.

The reason I asked was that I was looking for your opinion on the piece really, hence why I said in your opinion.

Sorry, I didn't mean for my post to come across as condescending. I think I've already made my opinions clear earlier. I think the French prosecutor has no business stating anything as fact when the investigation has only barely begun. If this was an investigation of any other nature he wouldn't do it and there would be outrage if he did.

Cianmcliam · 27-03-2015 1:43pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't mean for my post to come across as condescending. I think I've already made my opinions clear earlier. I think the French prosecutor has no business stating anything as fact when the investigation has only barely begun. If this was an investigation of any other nature he wouldn't do it and there would be outrage if he did.

But it sounds like they have conclusive indications that it was a deliberate act, that makes it a criminal investigation rather than an air disaster inquiry. In a criminal investigation the perpetrator and their actions can sometimes be easily determined without exhausting every single possible alternative. If someone was witnessed shooting someone else, that is what is reported. They don't keep silence until ballistics proves that a trigger was pulled, a bullet flew through the air and pathologists to determine that a projectile entered a human body. The CVR and flight path are reliable witnesses as to what happened.

kona · 27-03-2015 1:43pm

cnocbui wrote: »

What major incidents are you referring to - MH17 being shot down by a Russian missile; MH370 vanishing without trace - cause unknown; The AirAsia Flight QZ8501 which is looking like it might be weather related?

The pilot turned off the fac in flight on the air Asia the last I heard?
Air asiana 777 binned into sfo runway
Air France stalled over Atlantic and pilots lost control
Malaysian is up for debate.

Aerohead · 27-03-2015 1:43pm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Patient/Doctor confidentiality ?

When it comes to Flying I don't think it should come into it where the lives of a lot of people are at stake, personally never afraid of flying but today I have a litte bit of apprehension

pfurey101 · 27-03-2015 1:44pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

This the Aviation and Aircraft forum. I thought regulars here would be interested in the ECA - who represent European pilots - views.
I agree with them, as do AAIU investigators I know.

And there could be a worrying trend here - pressure from the 24 media companies to come up with something ASAP!

What if (a huge what if)...all of this is some mistake and there was something like a catastrophic failure? It does appear that they are 100% certain in this case, so they have got it right. But what if they get it all wrong?

What if, in future incidents, where the causes are a bit greyer - will the regulatory authority give in to media pressure and say something stupid?

The Malaysian generals certainly made fools of themselves during the MH370 investigation.

The ECA are right with what they say, but in this case the BEA were also right...................albeit thanks to a leak via the NYT.

ProfessorPlum · 27-03-2015 1:47pm

Cianmcliam wrote: »

But it sounds like they have conclusive indications that it was a deliberate act, that makes it a criminal investigation rather than an air disaster inquiry. In a criminal investigation the perpetrator and their actions can sometimes be easily determined without exhausting every single possible alternative. If someone was witnessed shooting someone else, that is what is reported. They don't keep silence until ballistics proves that a trigger was pulled, a bullet flew through the air and pathologists to determine that a projectile entered a human body.

Usually the air accident investigation is run completely seperately to the criminal one, which is often run in parallel. This is for very good reason.
When is the last time you recall a prosecutor in a criminal case announcing at a press conference the guilty party, before the investigation was complete, never mind a trial of any description? It just doesn't happen, also for very good reason.

Nesta99 · 27-03-2015 1:47pm

batman_oh wrote: »

At what point are you beyond depressed and just a psychopath? I think when you willingly kill 150 people it puts you in the realm of evil really. Yes it's not normal behaviour but some people just have stuff like this in them and no amount of medical care is going to stop it

I referred to a psychosis not psycopathy. He may have been diagnosed as schizophrenic for example which could explain the psychiatric treatment and his reluctance to acknowledge the condition as it would preclude him from his job. Im not speculating so much as saying that there is much more likely to be revealed in his medical history than a fleeting reference to depressive episodes that people will/have latch(ed) on to - there is a much bigger picture here and I shall reiterate that alluding to a 18 month past depressive episode is quite possibly not entirely relevant or indeed an accurate diagnoisi or assessment of his mental health.

Cianmcliam · 27-03-2015 1:50pm

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Usually the air accident investigation is run completely seperately to the criminal one, which is often run in parallel. This is for very good reason.
When is the last time you recall a prosecutor in a criminal case announcing at a press conference the guilty party, before the investigation was complete, never mind a trial of any description? It just doesn't happen, also for very good reason.

When someone is arrested and charged.

Nesta99 · 27-03-2015 1:52pm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Patient/Doctor confidentiality ?

Confideniality can be superceded if there is a real and apparent risk to the patient and or others.

weldoninhio · 27-03-2015 1:53pm

kona wrote: »

Wow yourself he murdered 149 people because of it.

Have you gotten onto the authorities to tell them this?? When did you diagnose him?? Or did he tell you that this is what he was doing??

SteelyDanJalapeno · 27-03-2015 1:53pm

The Indo is some rag

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/germanwings-crash-copilot-andreas-lubitz-hid-sick-note-from-employers-on-day-of-crash-31098772.html

"Plane hit mountainside at 700km"

No idea what this headline means

galwayjohn89 · 27-03-2015 1:56pm

I personally am slightly worried about the amount of information released so far. I understand in the world of social media, people want information as soon as possible. Without listening to the CVR its hard to comment accurately. I can only presume the investigators are 100% certain it was suicide/murder, with comments by the pilot on the CVR removing any doubt. If it is just the case of one pilot locked out of the flight deck, breathing heard on CVR and autopilot set to descend to 100ft, I would be disappointed in the investigation. From what I can see, they seem narrow-minded on the cause of the crash, which is fine, if they are 100% sure.

I was speaking to a psychiatrist in the CAA recently and they along with the FAA are now far more hands on with mental illnesses and having depression does not automatically exclude you from flying. This is the right way to go about it. Previously depression was a big no no, which meant pilots didn't mention it, even if they are taking medication for it. I read one study of pilots in America and the percentage of people who were taking SSRIs and that did not tell the FAA was staggering. Depression does not mean you are going to fly a plane into the ground. Depression does not mean you can't concentrate, yes it is a symptom but not everyone with depression suffers this, also medication can help hugely.

There seems to be a lot of knee jerk reactions, ban all pilots with mental health issues, remove the flight deck door, CEOs having an overrides, have air marshals on all flights. The issue is Humans make errors and humans can snap. CEOs having overrides, what if the CEO snaps? What if the air marshal snaps? Also, I don't believe that pilotless aircraft will remove human error completely, it will just move it further back in the design stage.

Lord Trollington · 27-03-2015 1:59pm

Nesta99 wrote: »

Confideniality can be superceded if there is a real and apparent risk to the patient and or others.

I imagine it would be very hard to ascertain if someone is a risk to themselves and others, even in cases of severe depression people aren't a risk to themselves or others.

I know people who have taken their own lives who've had no record of previous mental issues.

You risk further stigmatising a mental health patient.

Nesta99 · 27-03-2015 2:00pm

OSI wrote: »

White coat hypertension, or the elevation of a persons heart rate in a clinical setting is considered a mental disorder within the DSM. Should we stop anyone with it from being allowed to fly a plane?

Hang on lets not be silly. Of course there are psychiatric reasons for not allowing somone continue in their work. Slight anxiety not being one of course. Peoples sweeping comments like 'mentally weak' are the very type of concensus i was referring to when I was stating a concern about the mental status of the co-pilot without a full history or moreso the conclusion joe public will come to. The stigma attached to mental health issues could be the very reason this person felt he needed to hide something from his employer, assuming of course this is the medical issue becoming apparent.

Nesta99 · 27-03-2015 2:06pm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I imagine it would be very hard to ascertain if someone is a risk to themselves and others, even in cases of severe depression people aren't a risk to themselves or others.

I know people who have taken their own lives who've had no record of previous mental issues.

You risk further stigmatising a mental health patient.

Agreed it is a difficult task, and hard to determine when to flag an issue. No previous record of mental health does not rule out mental health issues.
Agreed also that stigmatisation may have played a role in this tragedy. It does in the wider tragedy on the issue of suicide! This is a suicide incident, we know this already. How and why 150 people were involved in an individuals problems/suicide is the question!

homerjay2005 · 27-03-2015 2:07pm

TiltedBrain wrote: »

The Indo is some rag

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/germanwings-crash-copilot-andreas-lubitz-hid-sick-note-from-employers-on-day-of-crash-31098772.html

"Plane hit mountainside at 700km"

No idea what this headline means

its pretty clear what they mean and you know it also....just incase you for some unknown reason dont, its missing the /hr after the KM...its a basic error, nothing more.

and its not a headline, its a sub.

Lord Trollington · 27-03-2015 2:11pm

Nesta99 wrote: »

Agreed it is a difficult task, and hard to determine when to flag an issue. No previous record of mental health does not rule out mental health issues.
Agreed also that stigmatisation may have played a role in this tragedy. It does in the wider tragedy on the issue of suicide! This is a suicide incident, we know this already. How and why 150 people were involved in an individuals problems/suicide is the question!

Well the pilot knew in killing himself he was going to murder (because that's what it was) 149 others also, it's possibly a bit more than a suicide issue to be honest. Many people (which all are tragedies) opt to kill themselves without killing others.

There's something a bit more to this that possibly a psychologist or an behavioural expert would know more about than myself.

ectoraige · 27-03-2015 2:11pm

Myla Worried Rattle wrote: »

One other thing I cant make sense of. They said there was silence in the cockpit, just breathing. I find it hard to believe he made absolutely no sound even at the end? You would think the startle effect would take over & if you see a mountain about to come through your window you would automatically let out a scream or even a gasp or something! Maybe he was unconcious. Breathing but unconcious. But I know that doesnt tally with the locking door etc. Just thinking out loud

If the first officer was indeed suicidal, I don't find it that hard to believe at all. A common theme with people suffering from suicidal ideation is that they find life itself to be too painful to endure, and they see suicide as the only option to relieve the pain. This is something that is hard for others to understand, counsellors will seek to help the sufferer find other ways to deal with and relieve the pain they feel.

From this context, having changed the altitude and set the door override, all he had to do was sit back, maybe close his eyes, knowing the pain was going to end. He may have even rehearsed it, knowing how it would play out, or it could have been an impulsive act. Some survivors of suicide attempts have even described feeling euphoric during their attempt. Of course, many others report fear, anger, and just immense sadness. But silence isn't that too surprising to me, who knows how he felt at the end.

Once he changed the flightpath, he probably considered that there was no going back, and that he would never be allowed fly again, which may have been the one part of his life that he found bearable. With regards his murderous act, just as some people can't understand how painful life can be, he might not have understood how good life can be for others. He might even have considered it to be a kindness.

Regarding the debate about what the second crew member is and isn't there for, and the hows and how-nots of how quickly a pilot could ditch a plane and if they could be stopped, look at it another way. Having that other person coming in for a few minutes provides a bit of social contact that would otherwise be missed. For people struggling mentally, this can make a difference. It's friends and colleagues who are best placed to help prevent suicide, not by jumping on the controls, but by talking and listening.

By the way, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the scenario of a sociopathic cabin-crew member standing behind the pilot with access to an axe...

Tugboats · 27-03-2015 2:12pm

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its pretty clear what they mean and you know it also....just incase you for some unknown reason dont, its missing the /hr after the KM...its a basic error, nothing more.

and its not a headline, its a sub.

The poster is just trying to get over on a message board by playing the ever popular Indo bashing card:o

kona · 27-03-2015 2:33pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Have you gotten onto the authorities to tell them this?? When did you diagnose him?? Or did he tell you that this is what he was doing??

So he didnt murder 149 people? Have you gotten onto the authorities to tell them this?? Or did he tell you that this is not what he was doing??

Mountainsandh · 27-03-2015 2:37pm

OSI wrote: »

Just look at how some character references of the co-pilot changed after it was revealed he had "deliberately" crashed the plane. They went from "a normal, caring nice guy" to "a bit of a weirdo". It's a common occurrence in these kinds of investigations, peoples opinions and recollections are heavily influenced by the situation they are given under.

Have you read reports from authorities using those words ? :eek:

There is no doubt the media are portraying the man in a certain manner. Are the people in charge going to be influenced by that ? how ?

It's not the first instance where an enquiry has to scrutinize a person being described a certain way in the media. Are investigators skewed because of media reports ? What about rapes, murders not necessarily within the aviation field ?

The press will use all these words, they don't normally in an aviation context but they are here and now. That does not mean it's going to affect the professionalism of aviation investigators. If it does, it will be to the same extent as the police being influenced by the media in a murder case. I think investigators know better than to let media representation influence them though.

edit : I understand now perhaps you were talking about people who knew the man and may be interviewed by investigators. I would guess these are things investigators are trained to recognize when interviewing witnesses. (ie how much of a witness statement can be tainted by media reports)

bk · 27-03-2015 2:45pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, I think we could get bogged down on the mental illness issue. The problem would have been prevented by a more sensible system for the door!

We have a situation where those doors were retrofitted as a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11. The implications of them are that a single pilot can lock everyone out of the cockpit and crash the plane.

The reason we have two pilots is in case one of them should become incapacitated. Someone could have a heart attack, have a stroke, a mental illness, a brain tumor, a diabetic attack.

The thing is the door system is pretty sensible.

If a pilot on his own in the cabin has a medical emergency and becomes unresponsive, then the flight crew can still use the emergency code to access the cabin.

Entering the emergency code, triggers a loud buzzer in the cabin for 30 seconds after which the door unlocks and the other pilot can take over from the pilot who has had the medical emergency.

However it doesn't help in a situation with a suicidal pilot alone in the cabin as the pilot has the option to override the emergency code and lock out the door.

This is also sensible as it protects against a situation where a terrorist is threatening the life of one of the flight crew and is forcing them to enter the emergency code.

Terrorism is absolutely a threat to aircraft. It is notable that there has been no deaths to hijackings since 9/11 and there is been a significant reduction in the number of hijackings since then. Which when you consider the increase in terrorism attacks since then is quiet astounding. So clearly the armoured cockpit door has had a positive effect.

What isn't sensible is not following the very simple US procedure of having two people in the cabin at all times.

While it wouldn't guarantee that this didn't happen again, it would reduce the likeliness of it happening again.

If you have only one person in the cabin, then the chances of death by pilot in this situation is almost 100%. But with two in the cabin it is probably better then 50-50. People underestimate how difficult it can be to incapacitate a person. Look at the Fedex flight example where a Fedex employee used a number of hammers and spear guns to try and incapacitate the flight crew and failed. The flight attendant wouldn't even necessarily need to fight him off for long, just long enough to open the door and shout for help from the other flight crew and passengers.

Also it ignores the primary reason why the US requires 2 people to be in the cabin. The second person is in charge of operating the door and looking out first to make sure a terrorist,etc. isn't forcing one of the other flight crew to enter the door code. That in itself is a good enough reason to make this a mandatory procedure for all flights world wide IMO.

Yes, it might not eliminate completely the possibility of suicide by pilot or flight attendant, but it certainly makes it harder.

pfurey101 · 27-03-2015 2:47pm

Lifted from another forum, gives one scenario into the way this lad could have been going about his last day....

A search of the said First Officers appartment revealed a medical doctors statement, that he is medically unfit to go to work and that he would be so for a longer period of time. He decided to keep this to himself and not inform his employer, as it would be evident, that they would suspend him from flight duties indefinately. This confrontation was devastating for him, being an enthusiastic Aviator from a very early age and he felt his life ruined. Instead of staying home, as the doctor prescribed, he decided to fatefully go flying in this state of mind...

Of course, there will be many other scenarios written with no one knowing the actual...........

gaffergamgee · 27-03-2015 2:51pm

Just a question some of the pilots/frequent flyers might be able to answer- just how robust is the door to the cockpit? Seems to me it must be pretty strong if a desperate man couldn't gain access with an axe! Was it just a question of the pilot not having enough time to break it down or is it pretty much impregnable if locked from the inside?

Germanwings A320 Crash

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