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London - Suspected Terrorist Incident

12467…19

Comments

  • #152
    Specialun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭Specialun


    RebelSoul wrote: »
    Who the fcuk cares what to call these animals. "Terrorists, arseholes, lunatics blah blah blah" You're actually arguing the reasons and definitions of them being called terrorists a couple of hours after that mans murder.
    Give your head a shake you fcukin losers and focus on what actually happened there today.


    Take your pills will ya


  • #153
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    mike65 wrote: »
    So basically everyone is going to have to be kicked out.

    Start with the brown ones with the funny religions and then move onto the other brown ones and maybe then the white ones from eastern Europe (they might be communists).


  • #154
    BobbyPropane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭BobbyPropane


    orestes wrote: »
    What systematic belief or motive is that? Muslim terrorists don't even all agree on their interpretations of Islam, let alone what to do about them. Just because someone who happens to be a muslim does something horrible doesn't mean it is a terrorist attack.

    They all do it in the name of Allah. It is religiously motivated


  • #155
    bootybouncer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 495 ✭✭bootybouncer


    dirty muslims..................


    Mod: Banned.


  • #156
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    Full text

    "We swear by Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth. "We apologise that women had to see this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government. They don't care about you."


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  • #157
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    BobbyPropane wrote: »
    They all do it in the name of Allah. It is religiously motivated

    Just because it's religiously motivated doesn't mean it's terrorism either.


  • #158
    BobbyPropane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭BobbyPropane


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Just because it's religiously motivated doesn't mean it's terrorism either.

    No it doesn't and I agree that this one is sketchy, but it is widely reported that it is a terrorist attack even by MI5 whom I sure know what the definition of Terrorism is.


  • #159
    aphex™
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭aphex™


    brimal wrote: »
    Here is the chilling video of the terrorist calmly talking to passers-by after the incident

    Warning - might be too graphic for some viewers

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-05-22/exclusive-video-man-with-bloodied-hands-speaks-at-woolwich-scene/

    EDIT: ITV website down, here is the direct link to the video http://vimeo.com/66751726
    Wow, I don't know how he let the guy walk up to the camera. Who's to say he wouldn't attack anybody else?


  • #160
    Ford Juicy Smokehouse
    Posts: 0 ✭ Ford Juicy Smokehouse


    Jimoslimos wrote: »
    So in effect you're saying because they were black and their parents may have been from a different country that means they're not "proper" British.

    Nope, that's not what I said. That's what you chose to read through your rose-tinted glasses.

    Someone brought up in a culture which is in opposition with British culture and feels so alienated that they want to kill British citizens probably doesn't consider themselves very British. Hence multiculturalism is as much of an issue in these cases as it is for people who have recently arrived in the UK. Cultural differences don't magically disappear just because your kids are born in the country where you're living.

    Is it really that hard to grasp?


  • #161
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Just because it's religiously motivated doesn't mean it's terrorism either.

    There is not absolute definition for terrorism......unless you have found it?


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  • #162
    orestes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭orestes


    Ford Juicy Smokehouse wrote: »
    You don't think that someone brought up as a strict Muslim, for example, might have values that jar just a little bit with British ones? No? Do you think children of people from other countries have nothing to do with their parents' culture?

    Wow.

    I'm half Irish, half English. My fathers family is catholic, my mothers is church of England. I've had family die on both sides of the troubles. By your logic I'd inevitably be danger to society.

    Generalisations are bullsh!t when you try to apply them to groups made up of millions of people.


  • #163
    RebelSoul
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭RebelSoul


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Okay sir. :rolleyes:

    No need for Sir, Mr Soul will do just fine ;)


  • #164
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    almighty1 wrote: »
    There is not absolute definition for terrorism......unless you have found it?

    Nope. And I'm not disagreeing with the notion that this is a terrorist incident. Just pointing out that religiously motivated killings don't necessarily equate to terrorism.


  • #165
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,069 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Jesus, Francois Hollande has more to say about the incident and its repercussions than Cameron the plank has. They're on Sky News atm


  • #166
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Nodin wrote: »
    O its muslims, is it?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/jul/03/muslims-integrated-britain

    You're sure now?

    Based upon the stuff now emerging on-line as well as on News Organs I'd suggest that that's exactly the group involved.

    However I've no statistics to challenge that impressive list you posted,so perhaps they can be used to counter the notion that this slaughter can be excused in whichever court you preside over ?

    http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-05-22/exclusive-video-man-with-bloodied-hands-speaks-at-woolwich-scene/

    Evil stuff and absolutely no doubt that these guys were out to make a politico/religious spectacular by murdering a soldier.

    Has it anything to do with Cultures clashing.....You tell me ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #167
    ballsymchugh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,939 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    Ghost Train wrote: »
    Apologised for the women etc who had to witness it but said its the type of thing that happens in other countries or something along those lines
    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Full text

    "We swear by Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth. "We apologise that women had to see this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government. They don't care about you."

    in a typical south east london accent..


  • #168
    bizmark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,892 ✭✭✭bizmark


    Ford Juicy Smokehouse wrote: »
    Nope, that's not what I said. That's what you chose to read through your rose-tinted glasses.

    Someone brought up in a culture which is in opposition with British culture and feels so alienated that they want to kill British citizens probably doesn't consider themselves very British. Hence multiculturalism is as much of an issue in these cases as it is for people who have recently arrived in the UK. Cultural differences don't magically disappear just because your kids are born in the country where you're living.

    Is it really that hard to grasp?

    Yes they aren't allowed think that because Dats raciss you see? No matter how logical your argument the poor dears will never want to be considered a racist or intolerant instead they will make dumb comments till the heat death of the universe to avoid the issues


  • #169
    Blisterman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,460 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    Immigrations not to blame for the attack. Just where it was carried out. The act of emmigration doesn't make people violent, that's obvious. The violence is clearly a result of religious indoctrination, which can and does occur anywhere.

    Does it matter more if an innocent person is killed in London than Bagdad? Religious fanaticism is a global problem. Shutting a countries borders isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference beyond further culturally isolating and marginalising people.

    The best defence against violence of this sort is through free and open exchange of ideas between people. These beliefs and ideologies are so lacking in logic, that once outside the echo chamber of a fanatical group, they will not be long before cracks start appearing.


  • #170
    Ford Juicy Smokehouse
    Posts: 0 ✭ Ford Juicy Smokehouse


    orestes wrote: »
    I'm half Irish, half English. My fathers family is catholic, my mothers is church of England. I've had family die on both sides of the troubles. By your logic I'd inevitably be danger to society.

    Generalisations are bullsh!t when you try to apply them to groups made up of millions of people.

    And where did I say that all Muslims or Irish people are terrorists? Where's the generalisation? There is none. You're totally projecting here.

    It's simply ridiculous to state that multiculturalism isn't an issue once people are British born. It's actually one of the most stupid things I've read all week. I'm not saying all children of immigrants are murderers, I'm saying that going, 'ah well the multiculturalism debate doesn't apply here because they were born in Britain' is ridiculous.


  • #171
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    I think everyone who doesn't agree with me on everything should be sent back where they came from, and if they already are where they came from, well, send them somewhere else.


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  • #172
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Just because it's religiously motivated doesn't mean it's terrorism either.

    The same mealy mouthed get out clause that labelled what went on in the north sectarian violence rather than what it was.

    what acts do constitute terrorism in your eyes if you don't mind my asking?


  • #173
    almighty1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭almighty1


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Nope. And I'm not disagreeing with the notion that this is a terrorist incident. Just pointing out that religiously motivated killings don't necessarily equate to terrorism.

    Well without an absolute definition then you could class all murders, attacks or any sort of violence as terrorism

    Quick google says this
    The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


  • #174
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Blisterman wrote: »
    Immigrations not to blame for the attack. Just where it was carried out. The act of emmigration doesn't make people violent, that's obvious. The violence is clearly a result of religious indoctrination, which can and does occur anywhere.

    Does it matter more if an innocent person is killed in London than Bagdad? Religious fanaticism is a global problem. Shutting a countries borders isn't going to make the slightest bit of difference beyond further culturally isolating and marginalising people.

    The best defence against violence of this sort is through free and open exchange of ideas between people. These beliefs and ideologies are so lacking in logic, that once outside the echo chamber of a fanatical group, they will not be long before cracks start appearing.

    Well said Blisterman,which makes it all the more important for the oft made calls to lock-threads and ban posters with fortright views to be resisted.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #175
    tfitzgerald
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    I feel sorry for that young man. And his poor family. Those animals deserve to be shot. And it was a terrorist attack


  • #176
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    ballsymchugh wrote: »
    in a typical south east london accent..

    Yup, seems homegrown to me, probably lived in England either all or most of their lives, like the 7/7 bombers.

    I would guess not a part of any "group" as such, just radicalised and obviously planned this attack, with no real attempt to escape. Purely as a grim religious/political message.


  • #177
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    The same mealy mouthed get out clause that labelled what went on in the north sectarian violence rather than what it was.

    I suppose you're of the opinion then that all religious murders are terrorism?
    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    what acts do constitute terrorism in your eyes if you don't mind my asking?

    That's a silly question that can't be properly answered. I could make a list but it wouldn't be exhaustive. It depends on a number of factors involved. Religion can absolutely be a factor but just because religion is involved doesn't automatically make it a terrorist attack.


  • #178
    BobbyPropane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭BobbyPropane


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Yup, seems homegrown to me, probably lived in England either all or most of their lives, like the 7/7 bombers.

    I would guess not a part of any "group" as such, just radicalised and obviously planned this attack, with no real attempt to escape. Purely as a grim religious/political message.

    He did say Our Lands though which implies he saw himself as possibly from the Middle East or wherever


  • #179
    poldebruin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭poldebruin


    ....and to think this happened only yards from a primary school gate - this could have been so much worse. I hope this doesn't inspire copycat attacks or spark violent repurcussions against any of the communities in the UK.


  • #180
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    The savages who slaughtered this poor man in broad daylight do not seem to have cared about any repercussion towards themselves or their own community's and only good thing is knowing police shot two of the horrible twats .


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  • #181
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    BobbyPropane wrote: »
    He did say Our Lands though which implies he saw himself as possibly from the Middle East or wherever

    All Muslims consider Mecca as such, in a similar way to how Jews consider Israel. They're isn't really any site of the same significance in Christianity.


  • #182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,025 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Full text

    "We swear by Almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reasons we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth. "We apologise that women had to see this today but in our lands our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government. They don't care about you."

    the cnut had a british accent, what lands was he refering too I wonder. Dirty ****ing scumbag.


  • #183
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Yup, seems homegrown to me, probably lived in England either all or most of their lives, like the 7/7 bombers.

    I would guess not a part of any "group" as such, just radicalised and obviously planned this attack, with no real attempt to escape. Purely as a grim religious/political message.

    He's English, without a doubt.


  • #184
    I am pie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    Really just terminology, but the only doubt can be to the extent these swines are associated with an actual organisation. Probably they acted individually after becoming radicalised.

    Home grown islamic isolated terror attack probably covers it. Not that the semantics matter much. It's a matter of working with islamic community leaders to educate young men away from radicalism.

    Either way, I wouldn´t send them home. I would get them back to health and lock them up for a long time. Let them spend their lives in a british prison.


  • #185
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,602 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Pumpkinseeds wrote: »
    Sky news coverage is disgusting. Some family is going to have the bottom fall out of their world when they get a knock on their door tonight to tell them it was their son/brother and all the while they may unknowingly be watching it on television. F*cking disgusting, we don't need to see the images of this live and have all sorts of speculation from bystanders. Can you imagine the horror of this if it was your family member?

    It's a news channel? The public are entitled to news and entitled to switch off. Free press and all that. Do you think the media should just not cover this story?


  • #186
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    BobbyPropane wrote: »
    He did say Our Lands though which implies he saw himself as possibly from the Middle East or wherever

    I think we can put 2 + 2 together here and presume they were referring to Iraq and Afghanistan ..

    Namely "Muslim" lands and brothers which have been attacked by US/UK forces

    Hence the attack on this man, presuming he is a soldier.

    Hence the statement one of the suspects made to the ITV camera


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  • #187
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    I suppose you're of the opinion then that all religious murders are terrorism?



    That's a silly question that can't be properly answered. I could make a list but it wouldn't be exhaustive. It depends on a number of factors involved. Religion can absolutely be a factor but just because religion is involved doesn't automatically make it a terrorist attack.
    No I don't.

    Humour me. Say even two examples.


  • #188
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Based upon the stuff now.............You tell me ?

    You misread that post.


  • #189
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    No I don't.

    So you're agreeing with me?
    Sulla Felix wrote: »
    Humour me. Say even two examples.

    No.


  • #190
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    It's a news channel? The public are entitled to news and entitled to switch off. Free press and all that. Do you think the media should just not cover this story?

    They can still cover the story but hold off on showing the video. You can see the victim on the ground in the video. It's a bit insensitive for his family.


  • #191
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »
    He's English, without a doubt.
    I wouldn't read too much into his accent, i know more than a few people with London accents who consider themselves Irish, and every other nationality under the sun too.


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  • #192
    Cungi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 487 ✭✭Cungi


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    All Muslims consider Mecca as such, in a similar way to how Jews consider Israel. They're isn't really any site of the same significance in Christianity.

    Jerusalem?

    Maybe not so much nowadays but Christians tried to take control of it a few times hence The Crusades.


  • #193
    Stereomaniac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Stereomaniac


    As was said, it seems to be some jumped-up young lads who have become radicalised and hold some perverse ideology, who probably identify themselves as freedom fighters.


  • #194
    alexonhisown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 667 ✭✭✭alexonhisown


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    It's a news channel? The public are entitled to news and entitled to switch off. Free press and all that. Do you think the media should just not cover this story?

    The helicopter shots of what looks like a body covered with a black bag and the coverage of the pools of blood is disgusting.

    R.I.P. to this man and condolences to his family and friends.


  • #195
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Cungi wrote: »
    Jerusalem?

    Christians tried to take control of it a few times hence The Crusades.

    To an extent yeah, and certainly in the past. Not to the same degree as the other examples though these days.


  • #196
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,602 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    They can still cover the story but hold off on showing the video. You can see the victim on the ground in the video. It's a bit insensitive for his family.


    Possibly, but the poster seemed to suggest that Sky News should ignore the story because of his family.

    I think it's good that the video is being shown as it shows the evilness of the killers.


  • #197
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    allah, not so akbar :(


  • #198
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    Yup, seems homegrown to me, probably lived in England either all or most of their lives, like the 7/7 bombers.

    I would guess not a part of any "group" as such, just radicalised and obviously planned this attack, with no real attempt to escape. Purely as a grim religious/political message.

    Interesting that these lads could'nt even manage to attack their soldier victim face to face...they had to knock him down with a car first.

    Will not surprise me if their homes reveal plenty of the preachings of Abu Hamza like wild-eyed infidel haters and their ilk.

    In the video clip,it's surreal to see these lunatics allowed so much freedom to move,particularly given the location...the other lad appeared less keen to play to the camera.

    The convening of COBRA and the immediate return of the Prime Minister may seem OTT,but IMO this incident,or more specifically,it's immediate global visibility,opens one hell of an appalling vista.

    The polarization of the UK has never been more starkly laid bare.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #199
    tigger123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,521 ✭✭✭tigger123


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Possibly, but the poster seemed to suggest that Sky News should ignore the story because of his family.

    I think it's good that the video is being shown as it shows the evilness of the killers.

    They don't have to ignore it, just cover it in a more tasteful way, but its Sky Rupert Murdoch News we're talking about, the lowest form of journalism.


  • #200
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Terrorism is such a loaded word at this stage it's effectively meaningless and is used primarily by useful idiots. 'Terrorism' as the word is used by the western media is the violence used against 'us' not the violence used by 'us', or in our names, against others.


  • #201
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,602 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    tigger123 wrote: »
    They don't have to ignore it, just cover it in a more tasteful way, but its Sky Rupert Murdoch News we're talking about, the lowest form of journalism.

    Right, so you just don't like Sky News? It was ITV News that broadcast the video. Sky News hasn't shown it yet.


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