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AVC's Secondary School Teacher

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    #32
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    Have a look here![/quote]

    Thanks that was so helpful. So my pension, if I worked the full 40 years and didn't retire until I was 65 came out at 17.5k! At least it's 6k more than what i was told! Rang the cornmarket representative but no answer.


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    #33
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    I thought new entrant pensions were to be based on career average earnings, not final pay?


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    #34
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Pwpane wrote: »
    I thought new entrant pensions were to be based on career average earnings, not final pay?

    That's post 2013 I think

    http://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Single-Scheme-booklet-Final.pdf

    There ya go


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    #35
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Emmser wrote: »
    Have a look here!

    Thanks that was so helpful. So my pension, if I worked the full 40 years and didn't retire until I was 65 came out at 17.5k! At least it's 6k more than what i was told! Rang the cornmarket representative but no answer.[/quote]

    Are you basing that on your current wage? Because your wage will rise so your pension will probably be worth more.


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    #36
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Thanks that was so helpful. So my pension, if I worked the full 40 years and didn't retire until I was 65 came out at 17.5k! At least it's 6k more than what i was told! Rang the cornmarket representative but no answer.

    Are you basing that on your current wage? Because your wage will rise so your pension will probably be worth more.[/quote]

    No that's me on the highest I can go!


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    #37
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Emmser wrote: »
    Are you basing that on your current wage? Because your wage will rise so your pension will probably be worth more.

    No that's me on the highest I can go![/quote]


    Sorry Emmser but that can't be right. You need to look at your maths. If you work 40 years and come out with a pension worth half your final wage (40/80ths) you're saying that you will retire on a final wage of 35k giving you a pension of 17.5k.

    The salary scale for teachers starts at about 30k and if you have been teaching for 8 years you are on the old scale and would have started on point 3 which is around 33k. Adding to that your degree and dip allowance and I'm going to assume honours for both would give another 6k ish. That's 39k on the old scale as a starting wage on full hours. You've been teaching 8 years so I'd assume you'd had a few increments at this stage if not 8 for each year taught so you're possibly on point 11 which for full hours would be approximately 50k per year in total. If you worked the rest of your years to make the full 40 and never got another increment a final salary of 50k per year would provide a pension of 25k.


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    #38
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    No that's me on the highest I can go!


    Sorry Emmser but that can't be right. You need to look at your maths. If you work 40 years and come out with a pension worth half your final wage (40/80ths) you're saying that you will retire on a final wage of 35k giving you a pension of 17.5k.

    The salary scale for teachers starts at about 30k and if you have been teaching for 8 years you are on the old scale and would have started on point 3 which is around 33k. Adding to that your degree and dip allowance and I'm going to assume honours for both would give another 6k ish. That's 39k on the old scale as a starting wage on full hours. You've been teaching 8 years so I'd assume you'd had a few increments at this stage if not 8 for each year taught so you're possibly on point 11 which for full hours would be approximately 50k per year in total. If you worked the rest of your years to make the full 40 and never got another increment a final salary of 50k per year would provide a pension of 25k.[/quote]

    I'm post 2004 so I put in my finishing salary at just under 60 k. You also have to remember to deduct what we've been speaking about above. I used the calculator that another poster supplied and that helped clarify any misunderstandings.


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    #39
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Emmser wrote: »
    I'm post 2004 so I put in my finishing salary at just under 60 k. You also have to remember to deduct what we've been speaking about above. I used the calculator that another poster supplied and that helped clarify any misunderstandings.

    You'll still end up with half your finishing salary. Whether its all an occupational pension or part of it I the state pension is irrelevant really


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    #40
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    Dear fellow posters,

    I come with bad news. My TUI rep contacted head office of TUI regarding my pension and yes the Corn Market representative was correct with my pension of 11k if I retire at 65. I will be in receipt of the OAP at 68 which will add another 12k. She said they provided her with a formula to assist in calculations and I will post this as soon as I get it from her. I actually would rather no backlash telling me my calculations are incorrect, but rather advise you to speak to the TUI or ASTI if you want to question it.


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    #41
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Emmser wrote: »
    Dear fellow posters,

    I come with bad news. My TUI rep contacted head office of TUI regarding my pension and yes the Corn Market representative was correct with my pension of 11k if I retire at 65. I will be in receipt of the OAP at 68 which will add another 12k. She said they provided her with a formula to assist in calculations and I will post this as soon as I get it from her. I actually would rather no backlash telling me my calculations are incorrect, but rather advise you to speak to the TUI or ASTI if you want to question it.

    I would still be wondering what formula they are using to calculate a pension of 23k (when OAP is included) when you are supposed to be getting 40/80 of final salary.

    Further to that, why would your pension be so low? Like you sound similar to me, on full hours, started teaching early 20s so will be able to complete 40 years if you choose and retire with a pension based on full years and full hours. If this is the case i'd like to see the calculation myself, because it's not like you're a special case, you are a public service worker, other post 2004 teachers pensions should be calculated in the same manner.


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    #42
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Regarding your op, it was always my understanding that you couldn't buy into an avc if you would have full service at normal retirement age. In your case you would have it at 64. I'll have 40 years at 22.

    If I work the full 43 years to 65 I will have 40/80 so an avc is not possible I thought. I could take a career break for three years and still have 40 years contributions. If not I wonder do you continue to contribute 43/80 but only get to claim 40/80 in pension.


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    #43
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    I would still be wondering what formula they are using to calculate a pension of 23k (when OAP is included) when you are supposed to be getting 40/80 of final salary.

    Further to that, why would your pension be so low? Like you sound similar to me, on full hours, started teaching early 20s so will be able to complete 40 years if you choose and retire with a pension based on full years and full hours. If this is the case i'd like to see the calculation myself, because it's not like you're a special case, you are a public service worker, other post 2004 teachers pensions should be calculated in the same manner.

    I know, it's dreadful. I'm bitter over it. Why don't you call TUI tomorrow and find out for sure? Then let us know how you get on. Or even call CornMarket, say you're just enquiring etc.


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    #44
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    Regarding your op, it was always my understanding that you couldn't buy into an avc if you would have full service at normal retirement age. In your case you would have it at 64. I'll have 40 years at 22.

    If I work the full 43 years to 65 I will have 40/80 so an avc is not possible I thought. I could take a career break for three years and still have 40 years contributions. If not I wonder do you continue to contribute 43/80 but only get to claim 40/80 in pension.

    This sounds similar to what my brother was saying. This is what I want to clarify. I would like to go at 55 so perhaps this is where it might come in beneficial.


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    #45
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Emmser wrote: »
    This sounds similar to what my brother was saying. This is what I want to clarify. I would like to go at 55 so perhaps this is where it might come in beneficial.

    Yeah but you're not allowed to buy an avc I thought. You can retire when you like but will either have to wait til 65 or take an actuarially reduced pension, or so I was told.


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    #46
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Here's the thing.

    I started in 2001 so I'd be different anyway.

    So I just opened the Civil Service pensions modeller.

    http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/modellers.asp


    I stuck in my own DOB. I put in the date I started in 2001 and date of retirement as 40 years for that date and went on the assumption of 40 years full service. I stuck in 60K as salary for easy maths.

    Sure enough it told me my lump sum would be 90K.

    It told me my pension would be 17,983 and at the age of 66 (rather it should be 68 but they haven't updated the page), I would receive the OAP of 12,017 which adds to 30K which is what I predicted.


    So the next thing I did was I plugged in the exact same details but as a post 2004 employee. That meant I shifted forward my start date 3 years so I also shifted forward my DOB 3 years too. It told me that I couldn't retire at 62.

    So I chose the preserved benefits option on the modeller, which basically means that if I was a post 2004 teacher and baled out at 62 I would get nothing until I turned 65, but the pension figures were the exact same as above 17,983 and 12,017.


    So round 3: I put in all the details again, but this time chose retirement date to be when I was 65 which would involve working for 43 years (oh the horror!) and the figures haven't changed. The pension provided on a retirement salary of 60k would be 30K when the OAP is included.


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    #47
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Pwpane wrote: »
    I thought new entrant pensions were to be based on career average earnings, not final pay?

    2013 onwards and anyone who is out of teaching for more than 6 months and re-enters is considered a new entrant. Approved leaves not counted, but considering how hard it is to get work, I'm sure there will be teachers that get caught.


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    #48
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    Regarding your op, it was always my understanding that you couldn't buy into an avc if you would have full service at normal retirement age. In your case you would have it at 64. I'll have 40 years at 22.

    If I work the full 43 years to 65 I will have 40/80 so an avc is not possible I thought. I could take a career break for three years and still have 40 years contributions. If not I wonder do you continue to contribute 43/80 but only get to claim 40/80 in pension.

    Yes, there was a teacher in my school who did just that. He could have gone at 62, but stayed working until 65. 43 years service, but pension and lump sum is capped at 40 years.


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    #49
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Yes, there was a teacher in my school who did just that. He could have gone at 62, but stayed working until 65. 43 years service, but pension and lump sum is capped at 40 years.

    Did he pay contributions for his last 3years


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    #50
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    I tried that calculator too and that's what made me think I was going to get 17k after the responses on this thread but clearly cornmarket and the TUI are using a different formula. I think the only way to be certain is to contact them like my rep did. That way you can be certain of your own case.


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    #51
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    Did he pay contributions for his last 3years

    As far as I know he did. Anyone who works for the PS/CS has to pay pension contributions regardless of their years of service.

    To be honest, everyone thought he was mad staying on, particularly when he was having a lot of discipline issues in the classroom. He said he was getting more money on the full wage that he would on the pension - he wasn't short a bob or two either. I can't see there having been much difference when you consider he was paying higher rate of tax and contributions which weren't giving him anything extra pension wise.


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    #52
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Emmser wrote: »
    Dear fellow posters,

    I come with bad news. My TUI rep contacted head office of TUI regarding my pension and yes the Corn Market representative was correct with my pension of 11k if I retire at 65. I will be in receipt of the OAP at 68 which will add another 12k. She said they provided her with a formula to assist in calculations and I will post this as soon as I get it from her. I actually would rather no backlash telling me my calculations are incorrect, but rather advise you to speak to the TUI or ASTI if you want to question it.

    What final salary did they use to calculate this out of curiosity?

    Because my back of an envelope calculation is as follows:

    Point 25 on salary scale: 59,359

    I'm assuming you have Hons Dip and Hons Degree: 1236 + 4918 = 6154

    Together = 65513

    For anyone that is on the top of the scale for 10 years or has 35 years service given, they are entitled to the long service allowance : 2324

    Total: 67837

    That would give a pension (including 12K OAP) of 33918



    That's not taking any post holder duties into account, but not everyone gets one of those.

    I have a special duties post (Allowance 3769) and if i never get a higher post and serve out the 40 years I would finish on a final salary of 71606 based on the figures above which would give a pension of 35803 (including the 12K OAP).

    First calculation :

    I do honestly believe they are doing their calculations based on your current salary. If you are teaching 7 years on full hours and have hons dip/degree based on the salary scale you are earning 46k per year or thereabouts.

    Retiring on a final salary of 46k with 40 years full service would give a pension of 23K : 11K from teaching and 12K from OAP.



    Second calculation:

    If you told them your final salary was likely to be just under 60K, and you wanted to go at 55 (assuming preserved benefits), you will have 31 years service at that point

    60K x 31/80 service = 23.5K which equates to 11.5 K pension and 12K OAP.


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    #53
    youngblood
    Registered Users Posts: 1,768 ✭✭✭youngblood


    Can anyone clarify, if you worked a temporary position pre 2004 but didnt fully qualify till after 2004 are you considered under the old scheme or new entrant
    ie can you take early retirement!?!


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    #54
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Emmser wrote: »
    I tried that calculator too and that's what made me think I was going to get 17k after the responses on this thread but clearly cornmarket and the TUI are using a different formula. I think the only way to be certain is to contact them like my rep did. That way you can be certain of your own case.

    But this is my point (and the point of everyone else on the thread). We're not all individuals with individual cases. All our pensions are calculated on the 1/80 x years served basis. We all work off the same salary scales and same pension conditions. Granted there are three different salary scales now, and we also work off the basis of being pre 95, post 95, post 2004, or post 2013 employees. Aside from the post 2013 employees most of whom are NQTs and will get pension based on average career earnings, the majority of teachers probably fall into the post 95, post 2004 category. Our pensions are all calculated the same way the only difference being that post 2004 can't get their pension (preserved benefits) until they reach 65, if they chose to retire early. Pre 2004 can go on full service any time before 60 and get their pension straight away and can retire on a reduced pension from the age of 55 on.

    So I don't see the point in ringing Cornmarket/TUI about my case or anyone else doing it either. The teachers who sit either side of me in the staffroom every day will have their pensions calculated in the exact same way as mine and I honestly can't see how your's could be so different.


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    #55
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    youngblood wrote: »
    Can anyone clarify, if you worked a temporary position pre 2004 but didnt fully qualify till after 2004 are you considered under the old scheme or new entrant
    ie can you take early retirement!?!

    It depends. Teachers who worked for VECs were considered qualified as you didn't need the dip to work for a VEC. If you subbed in a Dept school you wouldn't have been considered qualified. There were a few posts on another thread on the forum recently about teachers chasing it up with their unions, I think it was more to do with salary scales than retirement though.


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    #56
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    So I don't see the point in ringing Cornmarket/TUI about my case or anyone else doing it either. The teachers who sit either side of me in the staffroom every day will have their pensions calculated in the exact same way as mine and I honestly can't see how your's could be so different.[/quote]

    Nice


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    #57
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,115 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Just as a point of information for any thinking of going early on a Cost Neutral basis, after 28 years and finishing as an A post, I got a lump sum of 65k and I have a pension of under 16k.
    It's not a fortune, but I'm a long way from starving. I was feeling like the OP in another thread and I do not regret going (in the slightest).


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    #58
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Emmser wrote: »
    Dear fellow posters,

    I come with bad news. My TUI rep contacted head office of TUI regarding my pension and yes the Corn Market representative was correct with my pension of 11k if I retire at 65. I will be in receipt of the OAP at 68 which will add another 12k. She said they provided her with a formula to assist in calculations and I will post this as soon as I get it from her. I actually would rather no backlash telling me my calculations are incorrect, but rather advise you to speak to the TUI or ASTI if you want to question it.

    I am also post 2004. We had a Cornmarket rep out a couple days ago. He came up with the same figures for us - 11k pension with full service then OAP on top. I have to say I find this shocking and I just cannot see how the calculation is being made. I can see no official documentation to back this up. I'm very sceptical but worried.


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    #59
    feardeas
    Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭feardeas


    Hi

    I rang ASTI after seeing the post on Monday. I explained my situation and was told that for people in my position [started Sep 04] pension will be based on final salary. The entire pot will be occupational plus state pension = half the final salary assuming 40 years service. I intend to email them with the details of this thread to confirm.


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    #60
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Judson Full Ankle wrote: »
    I am also post 2004. We had a Cornmarket rep out a couple days ago. He came up with the same figures for us - 11k pension with full service then OAP on top. I have to say I find this shocking and I just cannot see how the calculation is being made. I can see no official documentation to back this up. I'm very sceptical but worried.

    Ask the Cornmarket sales rep to write down the calculations.

    Bear in mind they have an incentive to twist the truth to make a sale.


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    #61
    Emmser
    Registered Users Posts: 211 ✭✭Emmser


    Check out the Irish times and you'll read regarding that 11k I told you about. They are referring to it as 'income poverty'.


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