DART Underground - Alternative Routes

GerardKeating · 20-11-2014 2:35am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It wouldn't be difficult to change it.

The likely scenario is that, in relation to this project, those planners will be sitting on their asses for the next few years. (They will of course be busy doing other stuff). But they could be put to work on a redesign of the city centre bit for a year or two. The project isn't going to happen until we see how the whole loop line resignalling project works, to assess how that affects demand.

Going by their record on this project, you'd think ABP could be brought on board pretty easily with any change the government chooses to make.

So there's plenty of time before it happens.

Did you ever get the Train or DART between Tara and Pearse and notice a lit of track noise, with wheels make a lot of noise because the curve is a bit tight, and trains cannot really go that fast on that section of track.

The curve needed to make your Station at College Green would be even tighter. The only way this would work, would be if DU continued out to Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, and onward to Bray.

Sam Russell · 20-11-2014 3:12pm

Maybe it could continue on to Holyhead.:)

strassenwo!f · 24-11-2014 2:44am

murphaph wrote: »

In any case, most people (here at least) actually believe the route via Stephen's Green actually makes most sense. You are in a distinct minority on this remember.

Yes, you are right. But the American General 'Blood and Guts' Patton once said that if everyone's thinking the same, somebody's not thinking right. The minority view at any moment may not always stay that way.

Costs. Passenger uptake figures.

These are serious flaws with a route via St. Stephen's Green when it faces the inevitable scrutiny from the country cousins.

liamog · 24-11-2014 3:37am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, you are right. But the American General 'Blood and Guts' Patton once said that if everyone's thinking the same, somebody's not thinking right. The minority view at any moment may not always stay that way.

Costs. Passenger uptake figures.

These are serious flaws with a route via St. Stephen's Green when it faces the inevitable scrutiny from the country cousins.

But for the fact we've pointed out that your extra costs don't stand up to scrutiny and that Stephen's Green Station is quite well located with regards to employment density.

The only way the country cousins would see these as flaws is if they were incapable of mathematics and geography.

Ren2k7 · 24-11-2014 4:05am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, you are right. But the American General 'Blood and Guts' Patton once said that if everyone's thinking the same, somebody's not thinking right. The minority view at any moment may not always stay that way.

Costs. Passenger uptake figures.

These are serious flaws with a route via St. Stephen's Green when it faces the inevitable scrutiny from the country cousins.

There really aren't. It's a good route.

L1011 · 24-11-2014 10:24am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

These are serious flaws with a route via St. Stephen's Green when it faces the inevitable scrutiny from the country cousins.

Prove it. Or otherwise, please stop with the circular argument insanity you've subjected us to for months (or is it years?) now.

strassenwo!f · 24-11-2014 10:17pm

L1011 wrote:

Prove it. Or otherwise, please stop with the circular argument insanity you've subjected us to for months (or is it years?) now.

Sorry, where's the circular argument?

alias no.9 · 25-11-2014 12:46am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, you are right. But the American General 'Blood and Guts' Patton once said that if everyone's thinking the same, somebody's not thinking right. The minority view at any moment may not always stay that way.

Costs. Passenger uptake figures.

These are serious flaws with a route via St. Stephen's Green when it faces the inevitable scrutiny from the country cousins.

I'm a country cousin, what I want is continuity to the city center, I'm covered to the north city center by luas, what I'd really like is something to take me conveniently to St Stephen's Green, the 145 bus just doesn't cut it.

strassenwo!f · 25-11-2014 1:50am

alias no.9 wrote: »

I'm a country cousin, what I want is continuity to the city center, I'm covered to the north city center by luas, what I'd really like is something to take me conveniently to St Stephen's Green, the 145 bus just doesn't cut it.

And you'd have a direct route right into the centre of the Bright Lights/Big Smoke, if the interconnector were built through College Green. We've seen on this thread from our study of the employment density maps that Dublin's largest area in the highest employment density category lies directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green.

In your particular case the journey to St. Stephen's Green would involve changing onto the metro or LUAS at College Green. But for every one of you, there's at least another person coming into the city for whom College Green is the last stop (ie no change required).

I say 'at least', because there is also considerable demand on the north side of College Green which can be directly served by a station at College Green. This is not the case to anything like the same extent at St. Stephen's Green, because of the 22 acre park on the southside of the park (with no commuters) and the relative remoteness of areas of high employment density to the south of the park.

The route through St. Stephen's Green would suit you better, but clearly wouldn't be as good for the other passengers mentioned above, who would have to change. And it would almost certainly cost more.

L1011 · 25-11-2014 8:47am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Sorry, where's the circular argument?

All of your 'contributions', returned from the grave in a cycle as another one gets debunked. Such as your desperate attempt above on costs - sneaking it in as if you've not been shown to have no clue many times over.

The only cost increases we know of are what your redesign would cost, and the knock on disruption to trade

D.L.R. · 25-11-2014 2:34pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

We've seen on this thread from our study of the employment density maps that Dublin's largest area in the highest employment density category lies directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green.

This thread is about an alt. route for DU, yet there are no drawings of said route.

Please post a drawing of your proposed route so that we have something concrete to analyse.

Ren2k7 · 26-11-2014 3:46pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And you'd have a direct route right into the centre of the Bright Lights/Big Smoke, if the interconnector were built through College Green. We've seen on this thread from our study of the employment density maps that Dublin's largest area in the highest employment density category lies directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green.

In your particular case the journey to St. Stephen's Green would involve changing onto the metro or LUAS at College Green. But for every one of you, there's at least another person coming into the city for whom College Green is the last stop (ie no change required).

I say 'at least', because there is also considerable demand on the north side of College Green which can be directly served by a station at College Green. This is not the case to anything like the same extent at St. Stephen's Green, because of the 22 acre park on the southside of the park (with no commuters) and the relative remoteness of areas of high employment density to the south of the park.

The route through St. Stephen's Green would suit you better, but clearly wouldn't be as good for the other passengers mentioned above, who would have to change. And it would almost certainly cost more.

There is already significant employment density in the St. Stephen's Green area.

GerardKeating · 26-11-2014 6:23pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And you'd have a direct route right into the centre of the Bright Lights/Big Smoke, if the interconnector were built through College Green. We've seen on this thread from our study of the employment density maps that Dublin's largest area in the highest employment density category lies directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green.

So if the "highest employment density category lies directly between College Green and St. Stephen's Green", would the SSG stop not be just as good a the CG stop ?

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I say 'at least', because there is also considerable demand on the north side of College Green which can be directly served by a station at College Green.

Which would be just as easily severed from the O'Connell Street stop.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And it would almost certainly cost more.

You keep ignoring comments which point out that if you route via College Green, it won't be able make the turn to Pearse and Docklands. Trains do not handle corners will, they need wide bends/loops to change direction.

strassenwo!f · 27-11-2014 12:29am

D.L.R. wrote: »

This thread is about an alt. route for DU, yet there are no drawings of said route.

Please post a drawing of your proposed route so that we have something concrete to analyse.

I'm rather busy at the moment, but the best rendering I've seen so far was very kindly posted by the poster Telchak, shown below. Unfortunately he originally posted just the map, then came back later and bastardized it with some comments. But hopefully you can get the idea of what is being suggested.

Now, I think Telchaks's got it mostly right with the route, though I would like to see a somewhat tighter curve at the Pearse/Spencer Dock end, which would help to ensure straight platforms at the Spencer Dock station.

There does seem to be some worry about the tightness of that curve, but it is very hard to see that it would be tighter than the curve on the currently proposed route between Pearse and St. Stephen's Green. The bit going under Government Buildings.

Obviously that latter curve is doable, and such curves exist on commuter rail routes all over the place, so a curve similar to that shown on the above route should also be. There is no proposal to run trains at very high speeds here, so it's hard to see it being a problem.

In fact the major issue I would see here, engineering-wise, is the gradients encountered in or around Spencer Dock. In the case of the circuitous St. Stephen's Green route, and the one shown above, you are probably looking at a track level at Spencer Dock of at least 10 metres below street level, possibly more, because of the river. This has to then join the northern line track which is around 4 metres above street level. Assuming that the platforms are level, this involves a considerable climb (of at least 14 metres) from around 120 (or so) metres north of the river and the junction with the northern line. Obviously it can be done, but the issue of how to do this safely over many years of service, in all weathers, will exercise the engineers' minds more than any curves in that area.

L1011 · 27-11-2014 12:38pm

The existing route has been proven to be possible, engineering-wise, something your one has not been - and now you're trying to cast aspersions on it.

Pull the other one... Just not the costs, passenger density or "buildings of national importance" other ones, as we've heard - and dealt with - those already.

D.L.R. · 27-11-2014 7:18pm

Thanks for the map. You're right CG is more or less the heart of Dublin. But routing DU through here is not necessarily better just for its own sake. Here's why:

1. Access to College Green
Tara St is only 500m east of College Green. Christchurch will be 600m west. So there's not a huge need for a station directly in between. SSG will add a third access point 400m away. College Green will be extremely well covered.

2. Expanding rail access in Central Dublin
By routing DU directly under CG, you'd miss a massive opportunity to open up more of Central Dublin to the Dart franchise. SSG does this for the south city, and it will yield huge dividend for a large area. A CG station wouldn't have as expansive an impact, being closer to existing stations.

3. Business adapts to infrastructure
Consider Dublin in the 18th century. The city centre was further west. When the railways were developed, the centre of gravity shifted east. Railways/Subways bring activity and investment to areas, and business grows up around them. In that context, 400m from CG is not a big deal.

4. Cost
If you went with College Green, not only would it cause more disruption than SSG, but its a tougher engineering prospect. A tight build on a major junction. Your route goes directly under Trinity too. Sure, its possible, but I think its clear it would be more expensive than SSG. Saving on 1km of tunneling would not make up this difference.

5. DU is ready to go!
This project is getting close to happening, why not support it. Going back to the drawing board for no real reason? No thanks, its already taken far too long. Personally I think Metro North is more in need of a rethink than DU, but that's for another thread. Out of all our planned rail projects, DU is easily the most well thought out. No project is perfect, and you have to make the best choices you can with limited resources. I think they've done a great job in that regard.

Cheers!

strassenwo!f · 29-11-2014 12:35am

There are a number of issues in this post which need to be dealt with.

D.L.R. wrote: »

Thanks for the map. You're right CG is more or less the heart of Dublin. But routing DU through here is not necessarily better just for its own sake.

You wouldn't be building it through College Green for its own sake. I am suggesting that it should be built through there because it would have greater and more efficient passenger uptake, primarily, and because it would almost certainly be cheaper.

D.L.R. wrote: »

Here's why:

1. Access to College Green
Tara St is only 500m east of College Green. Christchurch will be 600m west. So there's not a huge need for a station directly in between. SSG will add a third access point 400m away. College Green will be extremely well covered.

Tara Street would be on a different line under the new DART arrangement, so its proximity to another station, on a different line, is not relevant. People on the Hazelhatch - Balbriggan line can't go directly to or from Tara Street, and nor can people on the Maynooth - Greystones line go directly to or from a station at either College Green or St. Stephen's Green. The fact that stations at College Green and Tara Street would be geographically close should have zero impact on these plans, as the customers going through these stations are not the same.

D.L.R. wrote: »

2. Expanding rail access in Central Dublin
By routing DU directly under CG, you'd miss a massive opportunity to open up more of Central Dublin to the Dart franchise. SSG does this for the south city, and it will yield huge dividend for a large area. A CG station wouldn't have as expansive an impact, being closer to existing stations.

The current plans are for a metro line linking Swords with St. Stephen's Green (this will almost certainly be continued southward in the future) and the DART underground linking the Hazelhatch and Northern lines. It is irrelevant what name you put on these lines, what matters is that the plan is for the city to have proper rail network, and part of this will be underground. Thus, the metro station at St. Stephen's Green opens up the rail network to that area.

Building the interconnector through there doesn't, and can't, open it up any more to that rail network.

St. Stephen's Green would be very well served by the metro and LUAS, Especially if you consider that the potential immediate catchment area is significantly compromised by the existence of the park, and the obvious restrictions which there will always be on many of the properties in the vicinity of that metro station.

D.L.R. wrote: »

3. Business adapts to infrastructure
Consider Dublin in the 18th century. The city centre was further west. When the railways were developed, the centre of gravity shifted east. Railways/Subways bring activity and investment to areas, and business grows up around them. In that context, 400m from CG is not a big deal.

One problem with both St. Stephen's Green and College Green is that there is very limited scope for investment in buildings which could allow significant growth in space for businesses to operate. You can't do much at College Green, because that neighbourhood is already almost entirely built up, and you also can't do much around St. Stephen's Green because of the park and the buildings in the vicinity.

In the case of the DART Underground route, any serious extra activity and investment is going to come in other areas along it, like Kilmainham or the Docks.

D.L.R. wrote: »

4. Cost
If you went with College Green, not only would it cause more disruption than SSG, but its a tougher engineering prospect. A tight build on a major junction. Your route goes directly under Trinity too. Sure, its possible, but I think its clear it would be more expensive than SSG. Saving on 1km of tunneling would not make up this difference.

First of all, College Green really shouldn't be a tight build. It is very large - though it can actually be difficult to see this with all the clutter there - currently with space for 6 (six) lanes of traffic (some of them currently being used for taxis, loading bays, etc) and a central median through much of it. It can't be that tight an engineering prospect.

Secondly, a line through College Green would almost certainly go under part of TCD, probably the northern part of the Front Square buildings. But the line via St. Stephen's Green is proposed to go directly under both Dublin Castle and Government Buildings, so it's hard to see how that's any better, in terms of buildings which need to be protected.

If you look at the city as it is now, with College Green continuously snarled with buses, and St. Stephen's Green a relative oasis of calm, then I certainly wouldn't even attempt to disagree with you that College Green would cause more disruption. But there are at least a couple of things which should be borne in mind.

If the DART Underground, the metro and the associated work on the Maynooth line, are done right, this would unquestionably result in a major reduction in the number of buses travelling through the city centre.

Building the interconnector - metro interchange at College Green would involve rerouting the current College Green buses for about 4 years, after which most of those routes could be completely realigned to serve the various rail lines at suburban locations. The final product would be a rail interchange in probably the most central location possible, with efficient uptake of passengers from all sides of the station, at all hours of the day, over the entire lifetime of the tunnel.

Because of the neighbouring park and the impossibility of doing very much with the neighbouring properties, building the interconnector - metro interchange at St. Stephen's Green would also cause some disruption, though probably not all that much, but the final product would be rather inefficient uptake of passengers at that station, at all hours of the day, over the entire lifetime of the tunnel.

And it is most certainly not clear that College Green would cost more, as you say. In terms of cost to the city and city centre businesses, I think it is beyond doubt that it would cost more during the construction phase, but after that there would be a considerable benefit to the city from having the highest capacity line ever to be built in Ireland going through the area in the city with the most efficient passenger uptake. People from North, South, East and West of the station, right in the centre of the city, readily able to access it.

With a St. Stephen's Green route, you would have a lower cost to the city during construction, but you would end up with a line which has, in comparison to College Green, relatively inefficient passenger uptake (because of the park and the buildings in its neighbourhood)

On the bald costs of construction, I don't accept that a College Green route would cost more. We know that a route via St. Stephen's Green should cost more, because it is longer. I obviously accept that the cost difference between the routes could be reduced or even eliminated if it were shown that there were major differences in, for example, the geological conditions which would be encountered by a College Green route.

These haven't been presented, so for the moment I think we should work on the basis that a St. Stephen's Green route would be more expensive, probably around 100 million euro more expensive.

D.L.R. wrote: »

5. DU is ready to go!
This project is getting close to happening, why not support it. Going back to the drawing board for no real reason? No thanks, its already taken far too long. Personally I think Metro North is more in need of a rethink than DU, but that's for another thread. Out of all our planned rail projects, DU is easily the most well thought out. No project is perfect, and you have to make the best choices you can with limited resources. I think they've done a great job in that regard.

It should surely be clear to you that I think this is a project of enormous significance and potential for the city. I am not convinced that it has received the scrutiny it should have: ABP effectively waved both it and the metro north plans through the planning process without, apparently, questioning quite glaring discrepancies in their respective railway orders.

I don't believe it is close to happening, because of the country's finances, and I think there is time, and savings to be made, by looking again at this project.

L1011 · 29-11-2014 11:34am

Come on, prove the "savings" or stop making completely unsubstantiated claims

murphaph · 29-11-2014 2:17pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

You wouldn't be building it through College Green for its own sake. I am suggesting that it should be built through there because it would have greater and more efficient passenger uptake, primarily, and because it would almost certainly be cheaper.

This is getting really tedious now. Stop repeating something you cannot even hope to prove. It is not a linear relationship between tunnel length and cost.

You have no idea of the geology and choose to totally ignore the cost to the economy of closing College Green completely to traffic for a couple of years.

You also harp on about 22 acres of grass that have "no commuters" but hey, have you looked at a map in the last 200 years? TCD has at least the same acreage of playing fields and squares and green areas-also with no "commuters" and you want to build a station outside the front door of this place. It's a non-argument.

Here!!

strassenwo!f · 30-11-2014 6:43am

L1011 wrote:

Come on, prove the "savings" or stop making completely unsubstantiated claims

murphaph wrote: »

This is getting really tedious now. Stop repeating something you cannot even hope to prove. It is not a linear relationship between tunnel length and cost.

I thought I had dealt with this in the previous post.

There is generally a relationship between tunnel length and cost: the further you tunnel, the more it's going to cost.

These costs obviously depend on the conditions in which you are operating, and I don't know if there is some major geological fault line between St. Stephen's Green and College Green which would render the costs on one side of this line significantly higher than on the other.

But, presumably, neither do either Murphaph or L1011.

It may be that the conditions via St. Stephen's Green are better, in which case the costs of the extra length could even be negated. Equally, it could be that the conditions of tunnelling via College Green are better, in which case the costs of building through St. Stephen's Green would be even greater, relative to the shorter alternative via College Green.

The fact is, it seems none of us know, and analysis of Iarnrod Eireann's study of alternatives to the St. Stephen's Green route - if such a document exists - would be required to help us in this regard.

Thus, for the moment I am working on the basis that geological conditions are not a major factor. The St. Stephen's Green route is longer, therefore in terms of tunnelling costs it would cost more, and a College Green route would cost less.

If you have any information otherwise, please present it to the board.

murphaph wrote: »

You have no idea of the geology and choose to totally ignore the cost to the economy of closing College Green completely to traffic for a couple of years.

If you had read my previous post you would have seen that this issue was not ignored:

strassenwo!f wrote:

And it is most certainly not clear that College Green would cost more, as you say. In terms of cost to the city and city centre businesses, I think it is beyond doubt that it would cost more during the construction phase, but after that there would be a considerable benefit to the city from having the highest capacity line ever to be built in Ireland going through the area in the city with the most efficient passenger uptake. People from North, South, East and West of the station, right in the centre of the city, readily able to access it.

With a St. Stephen's Green route, you would have a lower cost to the
city during construction, but you would end up with a line which has, in
comparison to College Green, relatively inefficient passenger uptake (because of the park and the buildings in its neighbourhood)

It is clear that it would not be easy for anybody to make the hard decision. I want to make it hard for that person to make the easy decision, knowing what opportunities the city would be leaving behind.

murphaph wrote: »

You also harp on about 22 acres of grass that have "no commuters" but hey, have you looked at a map in the last 200 years? TCD has at least the same acreage of playing fields and squares and green areas-also with no "commuters" and you want to build a station outside the front door of this place. It's a non-argument.

Here!!

Indeed it is a non-argument. Behind the railings of St. Stephen's Green you have perhaps 20-30 people working (and doing a great job). Behind the railings of TCD you have at least a few thousand people working there, the majority of them working at the College Green end, before we even get to the students who need to travel to and from there.

TCD is quite possibly the biggest single employer in Dublin 2. All happening behind those railings. (With regard to the large playing pitches down near the science end, I see that as more of a problem for the Pearse Station catchment.:p)

donvito99 · 30-11-2014 1:44pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I thought I had dealt with this in the previous post.

You've "thought" you've "dealt" with a lot of issues.

L1011 · 30-11-2014 3:19pm

That's not proof, or anything even approximating it.

You keep treating it as if it's fact when you haven't a notion of the reality

strassenwo!f · 30-11-2014 3:45pm

Okay, L1011, the board is yours.

Please go ahead and prove that the route via St. Stephen's Green will only cost 2 billion euro (or whatever the latest figure is).

L1011 · 30-11-2014 4:30pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Okay, L1011, the board is yours.

Please go ahead and prove that the route via St. Stephen's Green will only cost 2 billion euro (or whatever the latest figure is).

The tender price agreed will be the cost of the project, that's the way it goes. Its completely irrelevant to your Crayola argument with no figures to support any element of it.

You are the one making (ridiculous) claims as fact, you are the one who needs to prove them before you can rely on them in an argument.

strassenwo!f · 30-11-2014 4:46pm

L1011 wrote: »

The tender price agreed will be the cost of the project, that's the way it goes. Its completely irrelevant to your Crayola argument with no figures to support any element of it.

You are the one making (ridiculous) claims as fact, you are the one who needs to prove them before you can rely on them in an argument.

Precise costs, please.

(That's what you're asking me to provide).

L1011 · 30-11-2014 4:49pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Precise costs, please.

(That's what you're asking me to provide).

The tender costs won't be known until the tender is awarded - end of story. This is of absolutely zero relevance anyway. Nobody is making an argument based on the entire cost of the project but you are making an argument based on the costs of the central section.

However, the additional costs required in design work, a new railway order, more station boxes and closing the entire city centre for a prolonged period of time *are* quantifiable and yet you won't do it; even though its the crux of you're entire argument that it'd apparently be cheaper.

If you can't actually prove that it is any cheaper, that element of your argument is a busted flush and you could spare us the hassle of dealing with it repeatedly by not continuing to spout it.

alias no.9 · 30-11-2014 4:51pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Precise costs, please.

(That's what you're asking me to provide).

Nobody else is making claims about having cheaper alternatives to the planned route. Those who make claims should substantiate them.

L1011 · 30-11-2014 4:58pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

You're fudging.

Precise costs, please, L1011.

(That's what you're asking me to provide).

Erm. No, I'm not.

You are asking for an unknown and completely irrelevant cost as an evasion tactic. Nobody at all is falling for it.

Now, come along and show us your costings that prove that College Green would be cheaper. You're so certain it is that you must have some idea. They don't need to be precise - nobody has asked for precise - but they do need to be realistic. Your last attempt was fantasyland in every element - tunnel length, tunnelling costs, station box digging costs and ignored the cost of planning and engineering. I do hope you've actually recalculated as you're still banging the same drum claiming it'll be cheaper when your previous figures were demolished as inaccurate.

(and I see now you've deleted this post for some reason...)

strassenwo!f · 30-11-2014 5:09pm

Okay, so I guess we're not going to get any precise figures from these guys.

L1011 · 30-11-2014 5:13pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Okay, so I guess we're not going to get any precise figures from these guys.

Distraction techniques don't work on adults, usually.

Nobody at all has asked you for precise figures - just not fantasyland fag packet scratchings like you gave us before and had comprehensively rubbished. If you're absolutely certain that CG will be cheaper you must have some figures to work from.

DART Underground - Alternative Routes

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