copper or steel

SemperFidelis · 11-07-2013 8:47am #1

Is it ok to use a steel cylinder on a well supply?

I've had 3 plumbers up and all have said I should use a steel as this will give better life and corrode less "up here". I'm based outside roundwood in wicklow.

One of them quoted for copper and said a steel cylinder would be €300 extra, I thought the copper ones were more expensive.

bbam · 11-07-2013 8:49am

A stainless steel cylinder will long outlast the copper cylinder.

You don't HAVE to have it, but it's a better spec of a job.

shane0007 · 11-07-2013 8:54am

There is no warranty on stainless steel cylinders fed from wells.

It would also be advisable to test your water to see if there are any issues from your well that could affect both copper & stainless steel.

According to one manufacturer of stainless steel cylinders, the issue from wells is lack of oxygen. This lack if oxygen within the water coming directly from a well is corroding the stainless & the welds. It does not happen with mains water as the treatment plant process re-oxygenates the water.

corkgsxr · 11-07-2013 9:00am

I cant understand how well water is a issue for stainless tanks. Must be a horrible quality stainless.

shane0007 · 11-07-2013 9:03am

corkgsxr wrote: »

I cant understand how well water is a issue for stainless tanks. Must be a horrible quality stainless.

This particular manufacturer has had many failures. They sent samples of the failures to various laboratories around the world & the result was under-oxygenation.
They also had issues with the quality of the steel & their welds.

shane0007 · 11-07-2013 9:05am

All manufacturers have had some issues with their cylinders & the reasons are to do with the above.
No manufacturer offers a warranty on stainless steel cylinders bar one. However, when I queried in detail their warranty & they came back with a lot of get out clauses for systems fed from wells.

shane0007 · 11-07-2013 9:08am

The only cylinder that can really have some peace of mind on a well is a glass lined cylinder, however the sacrificial anodes in them should be checked annually & replaced accordingly.

Glass lined cylinder's biggest enemy is the transportation if them that can crack the enamel lining & corrode the steel within a few years.

SemperFidelis · 11-07-2013 9:16am

I don't think a glass lined cylinder would survive the road up to my house.

From the water test we had done everything was quite low except for manganese. The water is "moderately soft".

Would a copper cylinder corrode faster than the copper pipes feeding the rads?

shane0007 · 11-07-2013 9:35am

SemperFidelis wrote: »

I don't think a glass lined cylinder would survive the road up to my house.

A glass lined cylinder is not actually lined with glass. It is enamel lined. As long as care is taken to secure the load properly when transported, it is not an issue.

SemperFidelis wrote: »

From the water test we had done everything was quite low except for manganese. The water is "moderately soft".

I think it does but am not sure if manganese affects copper badly. I do know that anodes are definitely required with manganese in the water.

DGOBS · 11-07-2013 10:06am

I assume a glass lined cylinder was anodized (in essence glass lined)

As for them using poor quality stainless, common, you think!?!
Stainless can 'rust' depending on what is attacking it, as Shane suggested, it seems de-oxygenated water may well do the trick

corkgsxr · 11-07-2013 11:01am

DGOBS wrote: »

I assume a glass lined cylinder was anodized (in essence glass lined)

As for them using poor quality stainless, common, you think!?!
Stainless can 'rust' depending on what is attacking it, as Shane suggested, it seems de-oxygenated water may well do the trick

That's kitchen grade stainless which is barely stainless. Proper 304 or 316 does not rust. Only strong acids affect it

Only thing that makes sense is its very poor quality

DGOBS · 11-07-2013 11:16am

All metals rust, even stainless mate!
And there is a huge difference in 304 and 316 and its ability to resist corrosion

It has been proven time and again the low oxygen content water can attack and corrode stainless of high grade

Notably:
Stainless steel is rust resistant not because it won't react with oxygen, but because when it does it forms an oxide layer that protects the underlying metal. Regular iron forms flaky rust that allows oxygen to get to the rest of the metal. So stainless steel can rust if there is something that removes the oxide layer as it forms.

Steel remains stainless, or does not rust, because of the interaction between its alloying elements and the environment. Stainless steel contains iron, chromium, manganese, silicon, carbon and, in many cases, significant amounts of nickel and molybdenum. These elements react with oxygen from water and air to form a very thin, stable film that consists of such corrosion products as metal oxides and hydroxides. Chromium plays a dominant role in reacting with oxygen to form this corrosion product film. It is in fact the chromium oxide that prevents further rusting or oxidation and it forms a tough adherent layer which does not flake off like rust. In fact, all stainless steels by definition contain at least 10 percent chromium.

shane0007 · 11-07-2013 12:46pm

You see now that was what I was trying to say but I could not have put it as well as DGOBS.

SemperFidelis · 11-07-2013 3:15pm

Thanks for the information lads. I think I'll go with the copper and cave myself 300 yoyos.

sky6 · 11-07-2013 7:48pm

The Lads have given you good advice.
Copper is what is recommended for problem wells ,but make sure it has a sacrificial anode in it. I would assume it's a new deep bore Well as Manganese and Iron are common problems in new Wells. I suspect you also have a low PH problem too. The good news is it's treatable, the bad news is it's not cheap. Treatment depends on the level of Manganese in ppv. You could try shock Chlorination of the Well. Where you use a few Gallons of Industrial grade Chlorine. It will sort the problem out short term. Sometimes it even cures the problem permanently, as the longer the Well is open the more it breathes and can oxygenate the Water. If the problem returns the only solution is further treatment using a Chlorine additive system then removal filters the cheapest. Or a specialized Manganese Filter. Not cheap.
I would suggest though that you source your Cylinder from a well known Irish Manufacturer. If you need details pm me and I'll give you their name. I have no connection with them other than using their products from time to time.

scudo2 · 11-07-2013 9:07pm

SemperFidelis wrote: »

Thanks for the information lads. I think I'll go with the copper and cave myself 300 yoyos.

I sent you a PM.
Its up to you. But knowing the area I wouldn't be trying to save €300.we've had no problems with our stainless steel tank. Local plumbers will know the best option, sorry but I can't help as I'm based in Cork.
ps. I'm a plumber

SemperFidelis · 12-07-2013 8:55am

The well is quite old, probably 30-40 years and about 400 feet. The house was empty for 6 months before we bought it and the well uncovered so maybe that explains the high manganese. PH is 7.5 which I think is ok.

copper or steel

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