First Officer

IvySlayer · 07-06-2012 10:30pm #1

I was thinking about this earlier, who's the best First Officer?

Spock - I consider him the best from what I've seen. Not watched all of TOS though.

Riker - Was he a good 'Number One'? Perhaps only to certain Captains. Picard was a very hands off Captain, and he gave Riker a lot of leeway. When Jellico came on board he was an awful XO. He did rock the beard though.

Kira - Tended to let to beliefs and prejudices get in her way a lot...

Chakotay - Swallowed his pride and took the number 2 spot. He was the spiritual one to Janeways scientific approach. Meh-ish really. Whenever he and Janeway clashed he tended to get bitch slapped...

T'Pol - Not seen enough ENT to judge.

Myrddin · 07-06-2012 10:59pm

Spock - logical & intelligent. Very 'by the book' until later years, & it was only in later years, I'd consider him a good first officer.

Riker - Calm, controlled, rational. Looks at the big picture & capable in diplomacy, combat [Generations & Rascals excluded], first contact & negotiation.

Kira - very biased & hotheaded early on, with a resentment of Starfleet's presence. Began to really admire Sisko & formed a trust of Starfleet. Lost the hot headedness mid series & became a solid first officer. Weak points in diplomacy.

Chakotay - Because of his native upbringing, he has an open minded view of everything. Respects the beliefs of other cultures & has a good command presence. Strong points would be combat & leadership. Was a member of a terrorist organisation, but proved himself over the course of Voyager. Would make a better Captain that XO ironically.

T'Pol - Like Spock, intelligence & adhesion to protocol are strong here. Vulcans by their very nature to me don't make the best diplomats as they're somewhat detached from emotion & that somewhat detracts from certain types of negotiation etc. We didn't really see enough of her to see how her character evolved, but all the makings of a solid XO are there.

Personally, I'd go with Riker. Jaleco expected too much too soon, & Riker wasn't the only one who had a problem with him. La Forge also expressed frustration at the resource management. Like Chakotay, Riker would be best served as Captain...but to me, he checks all the boxes.

downwithpeace · 07-06-2012 11:21pm

Kira was a good first officer, once she got over the nasty Federation bit she worked well and started seeing Star Fleet personal as her personal. She had a tendency to over react at small issues which got int eh way of her better qualities. Never understood why she was also first officer of the Defiant as it was a Star Fleet ship.

Riker was probably the best, he had an excellent position between the crew and captain where he could be both commander and friend without the two interfering. Rare to see him out of his depth, cool and collected even when the Enterprise was falling a part.

IvySlayer · 07-06-2012 11:31pm

I'll never forgive Riker for his performance in Generations...

Myrddin · 08-06-2012 8:44am

IvySlayer wrote: »

I'll never forgive Riker for his performance in Generations...

He made up for it in the next film

Kiith · 08-06-2012 9:20am

IvySlayer wrote: »

I'll never forgive Riker for his performance in Generations...

His usage of 'Fire!' was the best i've ever seen though :P

Indricotherium · 08-06-2012 3:09pm

Are they not all bland buzz light year style stock foils for their respective captains.

T'pol aside of course.

Myrddin · 08-06-2012 3:10pm

Indricotherium wrote: »

Are they not all bland buzz light year style stock foils for their respective captains.

T'pol aside of course.

They all seem to provide a positive counter balance to their Captain's persona...but bland buzz light year style? Not to me anyway

downwithpeace · 08-06-2012 3:40pm

Indricotherium wrote: »

Are they not all bland buzz light year style stock foils for their respective captains.

T'pol aside of course.

Riker is anything but bland, he's one of the stand out characters in Star Trek

Indricotherium · 08-06-2012 3:44pm

Well chakotay for a start is a non character. A bland and unsuccessful attempt to generate some sort of person that janeway could speak to on equal terms.

This role was eventually filled by 7 and tuvok.

Riker is the poor mans chakotay, all the same flaws but not even a decent backstory.

Spock at least has some chemistry with his captain and shows more sides to their relationship than puppy like devotion to the skip.

Myrddin · 08-06-2012 3:49pm

Indricotherium wrote: »

Well chakotay for a start is a non character. A bland and unsuccessful attempt to generate some sort of person that janeway could speak to on equal terms.

This role was eventually filled by 7 and tuvok.

Riker is the poor mans chakotay, all the same flaws but not even a decent backstory.

Spock at least has some chemistry with his captain and shows more sides to their relationship than puppy like devotion to the skip.

Do you actually like Star Trek??

To call Riker a poor mans Chakotay is just baffling

Indricotherium · 08-06-2012 3:56pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

Well chakotay for a start is a non character. A bland and unsuccessful attempt to generate some sort of person that janeway could speak to on equal terms.

This role was eventually filled by 7 and tuvok.

Riker is the poor mans chakotay, all the same flaws but not even a decent backstory.

Spock at least has some chemistry with his captain and shows more sides to their relationship than puppy like devotion to the skip.

Do you actually like Star Trek??

To call Riker a poor mans Chakotay is just baffling

The only things I can think of regarding riker are a slavish devotion to Picard and a bizarre habit of turning down promotions.

Don't get me wrong... Jonathan Frakes is in my opinion one of the strongest actors in the entire of the francise as well as a fabulous director, but the character, Riker, very weak.

downwithpeace · 08-06-2012 4:17pm

Indricotherium wrote: »

The only things I can think of regarding riker are a slavish devotion to Picard and a bizarre habit of turning down promotions.

Don't get me wrong... Jonathan Frakes is in my opinion one of the strongest actors in the entire of the francise as well as a fabulous director, but the character, Riker, very weak.

TNG worked Riker's issues about leaving very well I thought, his loyalty to Picard and the crew but ultimately I like to think it was the one reason not fully explored (That I remember) when the promotion offers came up and that was Troi. When he did move on he was married to her and they served on the same ship, a nice little bit of Star Trek romance.

Indricotherium · 08-06-2012 4:29pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

Well chakotay for a start is a non character. A bland and unsuccessful attempt to generate some sort of person that janeway could speak to on equal terms.

This role was eventually filled by 7 and tuvok.

Riker is the poor mans chakotay, all the same flaws but not even a decent backstory.

Spock at least has some chemistry with his captain and shows more sides to their relationship than puppy like devotion to the skip.

Do you actually like Star Trek??

To call Riker a poor mans Chakotay is just baffling

I think it's possible to like something and still consider it critically. Although I do think this is something of a blind spot with certain elements of the star trek fan base.

Slydice · 08-06-2012 4:46pm

Does George Kirk count?

Your father was captain of a starship for 12 minutes.

He saved 800 lives, including your mother's and yours.

Myrddin · 08-06-2012 5:18pm

Indricotherium wrote: »

I think it's possible to like something and still consider it critically. Although I do think this is something of a blind spot with certain elements of the star trek fan base.

Of course, but stuff like calling Riker a poor mans Chakotay isn't critical...it just doesn't make sense. If anything, it was the other way round.

Riker had a true mentor in Picard, & Riker took his duty to the ship as serious as it can be taken. I never once got any hint of 'slavish devotion', it's just Picard is never really wrong enough to warrant a conflict between him & his XO.

Riker wrote the book on being a first officer in the 24th century. The promotion thing was written well enough & his reasons were valid.

IvySlayer · 08-06-2012 6:12pm

Chakotay was always overshadowed by Janeway. Picard would tend to leave Riker in charge and go off to his ready room.

IvySlayer · 08-06-2012 6:24pm

Another one to consider is Worf under Martok/Defiant.

Did his duty, wasn't afraid to challenge Martok when it became necessary.

Indricotherium · 08-06-2012 8:24pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Indricotherium wrote: »

I think it's possible to like something and still consider it critically. Although I do think this is something of a blind spot with certain elements of the star trek fan base.

Of course, but stuff like calling Riker a poor mans Chakotay isn't critical...it just doesn't make sense. If anything, it was the other way round.

Riker had a true mentor in Picard, & Riker took his duty to the ship as serious as it can be taken. I never once got any hint of 'slavish devotion', it's just Picard is never really wrong enough to warrant a conflict between him & his XO.

Riker wrote the book on being a first officer in the 24th century. The promotion thing was written well enough & his reasons were valid.

I suppose I'm approaching it from a different point of view.

I'm considering it from the point of view of characters worth watching and the story they generate around themselves and other characters, whereas this thread seems to be focusing on their in universe merits as sta flee officers.

That's not a discussion I have an opinion on.

IvySlayer · 08-06-2012 8:47pm

downwithpeace wrote: »

Riker is anything but bland, he's one of the stand out characters in Star Trek

The faces he pulls.

The beard.

His crotch waving in front of Data.

He's a pimp.

The beard.

Who else would have asked Picard for a Horga'hn? :pac:

Goldstein · 08-06-2012 10:07pm

Indricotherium wrote: »

The only things I can think of regarding riker are a slavish devotion to Picard and a bizarre habit of turning down promotions.

Don't get me wrong... Jonathan Frakes is in my opinion one of the strongest actors in the entire of the francise as well as a fabulous director, but the character, Riker, very weak.

Three more words should suffice for this one:

Mr. Worf...............................Fire!

nyarlothothep · 08-06-2012 10:15pm

Riker was a smug asshole (he was a bit of a bully towards his subordinates, particularly Barclay) but he was also entertaining because of his smug arrogance, the Riker grin always makes me laugh. He also kind of stepped on Picard's shoes a lot, although Picard was a good deal smarter so that's how he maintained command, however early TNG Picard had much more of a heirarchical leadership style which someone like Riker would probably respect. Spock is the perfect first officer, always provides a good counterpoint to Kirk, and somewhat of a spiritual guide. T'pol also displayed a lot of cop on and was a calm, collected and likeable character. So imo Spock and then T'Pol as the best first officers. Chakotay was spineless, Kira was too much of a hothead and too invested in Bajoran politics to be reliable.

Goldstein · 09-06-2012 1:42am

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Riker was a smug asshole (he was a bit of a bully towards his subordinates, particularly Barclay) but he was also entertaining because of his smug arrogance, the Riker grin always makes me laugh. He also kind of stepped on Picard's shoes a lot, although Picard was a good deal smarter so that's how he maintained command, however early TNG Picard had much more of a heirarchical leadership style which someone like Riker would probably respect. Spock is the perfect first officer, always provides a good counterpoint to Kirk, and somewhat of a spiritual guide. T'pol also displayed a lot of cop on and was a calm, collected and likeable character. So imo Spock and then T'Pol as the best first officers. Chakotay was spineless, Kira was too much of a hothead and too invested in Bajoran politics to be reliable.

Chakotay wasn't spineless - he was a boring, badly written void yes, but spineless is one thing he was not - he had high moral beliefs and had the conviction to back them up. There were times he sided with Janeway over Seska and his other maquis buddies in the early years. The best evidence though is seen in those times when he stood up to his Captain moreso than any other first officer when he believed he was right. This developed to such an extent that he disobeyed hugely significant explicit orders (Scorpion) and he was even relieved of duty when he refused to back down over Janeway's hell-bent pursuit of her white whale (Equinox).

The problem is we never knew who he really is because whenever an opportunity arose to flesh out his personality and really develop the character behind the tattoo they inevitably went with the one trick pony of route 1 - some mystic native american medicine wheel / vision quest crap. They eventually realised waaay too late and forced the Seven relationship on us just to give him SOMEthing to do - anything. He did shine a few times, one of the most notable being Nemesis. Derspite all this however, I would place him squarely at the bottom of the list.

Riker (The best all round first officer)
T'Pol (Grossly under-rated)
Spock (He's Spock, what can you say)
Kira (A little annoying at times and you rarely saw her in any command situations until the very end of the war - Jadzia was effectively Sisko's first officer a lot of the time. Kira's tough chick and overly defensive attitude got old fast. Herself and Odo never made sense and was the one fast-forward prone facet to later DS9)
Chakotay (umm, he was far from his ancestors or something)

Myrddin · 09-06-2012 11:28am

Indricotherium wrote: »

I suppose I'm approaching it from a different point of view.

I'm considering it from the point of view of characters worth watching and the story they generate around themselves and other characters, whereas this thread seems to be focusing on their in universe merits as sta flee officers.

That's not a discussion I have an opinion on.

Your probably right, but thats how I watch Star Trek. I don't watch it to be a critic of the writing, I watch it for what it is & try to engross myself in the story. I watch it as if it were real. Anything else just seems boring & pointless

helimachoptor · 09-06-2012 12:36pm

Indricotherium wrote: »

The only things I can think of regarding riker are a slavish devotion to Picard and a bizarre habit of turning down promotions.

Captain of a ship in a far off sector of the quadrant or have some gravitas as the 1st Officer of the flagship..

nyarlothothep · 09-06-2012 12:37pm

Goldstein wrote: »

Chakotay wasn't spineless - he was a boring, badly written void yes, but spineless is one thing he was not - he had high moral beliefs and had the conviction to back them up. There were times he sided with Janeway over Seska and his other maquis buddies in the early years. The best evidence though is seen in those times when he stood up to his Captain moreso than any other first officer when he believed he was right. This developed to such an extent that he disobeyed hugely significant explicit orders (Scorpion) and he was even relieved of duty when he refused to back down over Janeway's hell-bent pursuit of her white whale (Equinox).

The problem is we never knew who he really is because whenever an opportunity arose to flesh out his personality and really develop the character behind the tattoo they inevitably went with the one trick pony of route 1 - some mystic native american medicine wheel / vision quest crap. They eventually realised waaay too late and forced the Seven relationship on us just to give him SOMEthing to do - anything. He did shine a few times, one of the most notable being Nemesis. Derspite all this however, I would place him squarely at the bottom of the list.

Riker (The best all round first officer)
T'Pol (Grossly under-rated)
Spock (He's Spock, what can you say)
Kira (A little annoying at times and you rarely saw her in any command situations until the very end of the war - Judzei was effectively Sisko's first officer a lot of the time. Kira's tough chick and overly defensive attitude got old fast. Herself and Odo never made sense and was the one fast-forward prone facet to later DS9)
Chakotay (umm, he was far from his ancestors or something)

I seem to remember Janeway torturing a captive, getting really sadistic in the holodeck to acquire information and Chakotay just went along with it rather than standing up to her. And what about Tuvix? And all the other hairbrained decisions? As a maquis leader he didn't put up much of a fight, the maquis subplot got lost in the ether, there could have been a mutiny, in fact Janeway's leadership style demanded a mutiny.

IvySlayer · 09-06-2012 1:53pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I seem to remember Janeway torturing a captive, getting really sadistic in the holodeck to acquire information and Chakotay just went along with it rather than standing up to her.

Wrong, Chakotay stopped her and told her she was wrong. Janeway then relieved him of duty.

azezil · 11-06-2012 4:44pm

How has noone mentioned 'The Riker Swagger' yet!?

Myrddin · 11-06-2012 5:03pm

azezil wrote: »

How has noone mentioned 'The Riker Swagger' yet!?

His kind of one sided lurching walk? I think Frakes actually mentioned that in a video posted in this forum recently. He laughed about it & mentioned it was because the uniforms were so tight & restrictive...he's a big guy!

IvySlayer · 11-06-2012 9:12pm

EnterNow wrote: »

he's a big guy!

His stomach became bigger season by season.

downwithpeace · 11-06-2012 10:32pm

IvySlayer wrote: »

His stomach became bigger season by season.

Suck in that gut number one.

Sad Professor · 15-06-2012 10:50am

Whatever potential Chakotay's character had was lost at the end of the pilot when they put him in a Starfleet uniform and made him into Janeway's lapdog. Instead of getting weak at the knees whenever Janeway was around, he should have constantly been at her throat with one eye on mutiny.

And re Riker, they should have done The Pegasus much earlier in the show's run. As an explanation for why Riker was still on the Enterprise, it came far too late. Oh and I always thought Riker should have died at the end of Second Chances and been secretly replaced by his transporter twin Thomas. It would have been a brilliant twist.

Myrddin · 15-06-2012 10:57am

Sad Professor wrote: »

And re Riker, they should have done The Pegasus much earlier in the show's run. As an explanation for why Riker was still on the Enterprise, it came far too late.

Was it ever intended to explain why Riker was still on the Enterprise, by that stage, he had been offered the Captains Chair three times...

Oh and I always thought Riker should have died at the end of Second Chances and been secretly replaced by his transporter twin Thomas. It would have been a brilliant twist.

I seem to remember the same thing happening the Professor in Sliders, twas a great little twist.

Sad Professor · 15-06-2012 11:05am

Well, it was a reason for keeping him on the Enterprise. Prior to that it seemed he was just hanging around waiting for Picard to die or retire. It didn't make sense given how ambitious he used to be and I think it hurt his character in the long run.

Myrddin · 15-06-2012 11:06am

Sad Professor wrote: »

Well, it was a reason for keeping him on the Enterprise.

The Pegasus Incident? How?

Sad Professor · 15-06-2012 11:21am

It destroyed his reputation. Picard's words at the end of the episode seemed to imply that nobody would be offering him a command anytime soon as a result.

Myrddin · 15-06-2012 11:32am

Sad Professor wrote: »

It destroyed his reputation. Picard's words at the end of the episode seemed to imply that nobody would be offering him a command anytime soon as a result.

Yeah I see what you mean. It took a further nine years for Riker to finally sit in the Captains Chair after the reveal about the Pegasus.

I dunno, to me Riker was very ambitious as you say, but the reasons he stayed were more to do with the affections he gained for the crew & ship during his years as first officer. I think loyalty overshadowed ambition for Riker, which is why he's so likeable

helimachoptor · 15-06-2012 1:10pm

Put it this way lads...
would you rather be 2nd in command of the Flagship Nimitz Class Carrier Gerald Ford...

or
... Captain of this

Yes its your ship.. but its a crappy ship.
On the Enterprise he would have a large input into important matters, as a Captain of some far off ship he wouldnt.

Sad Professor · 15-06-2012 1:44pm

Surely Riker pre-Pregasus would have had his pick of ships? He did save Earth from the Borg after all. And there were other Galaxy class starships like the Enterprise.

helimachoptor · 15-06-2012 2:02pm

Sad Professor wrote: »

Surely Riker pre-Pregasus would have had his pick of ships? He did save Earth from the Borg after all. And there were other Galaxy class starships like the Enterprise.

But the ships that were mentioned werent galaxy class.
The Melbourne (i think) was destroyed by the Borg and it was a old class and I think the one of in some other part of the quadrant was a Nebula class

I'm sure that if a Galazy class had some up, he would have taken it..

nyarlothothep · 15-06-2012 2:19pm

I think Riker stayed on board the Enterprise as all his friends and Troi were there, he was "seasoned" enough to realise that it's the people you're with that make life enjoyable to quite a degree and he'd progressed far enough in his career on board the flagship to render the advantages of ambition to be less than the benefits of remaining on the Ent.

downwithpeace · 15-06-2012 2:25pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

But the ships that were mentioned werent galaxy class.
The Melbourne (i think) was destroyed by the Borg and it was a old class and I think the one of in some other part of the quadrant was a Nebula class

I'm sure that if a Galazy class had some up, he would have taken it..

Second ship was a Renaissance class ship called the Aries, built for deep space exploration.

norrie rugger · 15-06-2012 2:39pm

downwithpeace wrote: »

Second ship was a Renaissance class ship called the Aries, built for deep space exploration.

Yet he takes the Titan, deep space exploration ship.
Troi really seems to be the answer here

Myrddin · 15-06-2012 3:01pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think Riker stayed on board the Enterprise as all his friends and Troi were there, he was "seasoned" enough to realise that it's the people you're with that make life enjoyable to quite a degree and he'd progressed far enough in his career on board the flagship to render the advantages of ambition to be less than the benefits of remaining on the Ent.

This

norrie rugger wrote: »

Yet he takes the Titan, deep space exploration ship.
Troi really seems to be the answer here

Also true, maybe there were parts of him still attached to her that wern't fully developed by writers/plot.

Also by the Titan came around, I think he was more established as a person of authority, & fit the captains seat much better when he was at the Nemesis level, than say, Best Of Both Worlds era.

Also, with the destruction of the Enterprise-D, maybe it was the little kick he needed to go out & really take command. Finally also, I'd like to imagine that it was quietly whispered to Riker than Picard was likely to step down within a few years, & that he should go out & get actual command experience as he would then be the man to take command of the Enterprise...but that's the wishful thinking Trek geek in me

IvySlayer · 16-06-2012 3:52pm

Surely Riker should of gotten command of a ship during the Dominion War?

Myrddin · 16-06-2012 4:36pm

IvySlayer wrote: »

Surely Riker should of gotten command of a ship during the Dominion War?

I'm sure he could have, but wasn't ready to leave at that stage. Plus the Federation were taking heavy losses, many ships were destroyed & were being destroyed faster than they could be rebuilt...so maybe there was a shortage of ships rather than Captains for them?

I always thought they should have done a two parter episode during the DS9 last season involving the Enterprise-E. That ship is criminally underused & unseen

downwithpeace · 16-06-2012 5:18pm

EnterNow wrote: »

I always thought they should have done a two parter episode during the DS9 last season involving the Enterprise-E. That ship is criminally underused & unseen

That would have been nice but I suspect the lack of DS9 Sovereign-class ships was down to movie exclusives, annoying since they were the most powerful Federation ships at the time and would have been involved in most major attacks into Cardassian territory.

The class is mentioned a few times but never seen.

Myrddin · 16-06-2012 5:58pm

downwithpeace wrote: »

That would have been nice but I suspect the lack of DS9 Sovereign-class ships was down to movie exclusives, annoying since they were the most powerful Federation ships at the time and would have been involved in most major attacks into Cardassian territory.

The class is mentioned a few times but never seen.

Actually yeah, the bloody whole class isn't seen let alone the Enterprise! Could it really be a movie-exclusive clause? After all, isn't Star Trek simply Star Trek...

Though now that you mention it, it's probably some kind if ILM clause as to why the Sovereign class was unseen in DS9/Dominion War.

downwithpeace · 16-06-2012 6:30pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Actually yeah, the bloody whole class isn't seen let alone the Enterprise! Could it really be a movie-exclusive clause? After all, isn't Star Trek simply Star Trek...

Though now that you mention it, it's probably some kind if ILM clause as to why the Sovereign class was unseen in DS9/Dominion War.

There might have been a separation in production companies at the times, one for TV and one for Movies like they have now. The lure of a new ship would have had an effect on the movies for sure. ILM clause?

Myrddin · 16-06-2012 7:24pm

downwithpeace wrote: »

There might have been a separation in production companies at the times, one for TV and one for Movies like they have now. The lure of a new ship would have had an effect on the movies for sure. ILM clause?

Didn't ILM have input somehow into the Sovereign Class? I could be wrong, but I thought they built it for First Contact (it was a model for most of that movie & moved to CGI from Insurrection onwards).

Read something years ago, I could well be wrong though

downwithpeace · 16-06-2012 9:05pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Didn't ILM have input somehow into the Sovereign Class? I could be wrong, but I thought they built it for First Contact (it was a model for most of that movie & moved to CGI from Insurrection onwards).

Read something years ago, I could well be wrong though

They built it but didn't come up with it so any clause might have been limited to the model and in later movies the CGI creations. If there was a clause then it could have come because the producers were only willing to pay so much that ILM limited the model/CGI usage.

I'm not sure if the Sovereign Class was the outcome but sometime during season 5-6 of TNG the idea of a newer Enterprise was brought up.

First Officer

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