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Unfairly fined for illegal dumping

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    #32
    Konata
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,164 ✭✭✭Konata


    Oh yea, the fine got revoked as soon as we rang them up and explained - they were quick to turn their tails!


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    #33
    Turbulent Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    razzler wrote: »
    ...each time the judge convicted on previous cases.

    Just out of interest, how did the rest of the cases seem to you, i.e., were they legitimate convictions for obvious dumping or were there similar cases to yours? I love to see people being prosecuted when they blatantly dump, but I'd hate to see the CoCo taking spurious cases just for the sake of it. They must have a good feel at this stage for when someone is telling the truth.

    Congratulations on your win.


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    #34
    razzler
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭razzler


    Thanks Turbulent Bill
    The other cases all had the personal details enclosed inside bags of the black bin bag type dumped with other bags and the defendants were not present (probably couldn't be bothered turning up) so guilt seemed obvious. In each of these cases the judge would say "based on the evidence given by the litter warden I'm going to convict". It actually became a bit boring after a while, there was low background noise from people cos people weren't really listening, until my husband's turn. You could have heard a pin drop. Everyone wanted to hear what someone pleading not guilty would say.
    One other guy pleaded not guilty as well. His details with a Blessington Street address was found inside 4 bags of dumped rubbish on Blessington Street and his defence was that he lives in Clontarf but gets his letters delivered to his friend's house on Blessington Street and that it was his friend who dumped the bags. But he wouldn't give the judge a reason as to why his friend would dump bags or why he uses his friend's address. Maybe he was telling the truth and didn't want to incriminate his 'friend' who was obviously willing to let him take the rap. And he didn't provide proof of his address in Clontarf. The judge convicted.
    Other cases were for security shutters erected without permission, noisey works and so on.
    To deviate a bit, I was surprised the way some people dressed, dirty tracksuits, cloths looking like they were slept in with mucky trainers. But no pyjamas thank God.


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    #35
    razzler
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭razzler


    Turbulent Bill wrote: »
    They must have a good feel at this stage for when someone is telling the truth.


    I think you're right, but I think that they don't care. Once they see a name and address they get trigger happy and guilt or innocence becomes irrelevant. The litter wardens in the court treated it like a game to see who could score the most convictions, giving each other the wink and smile.
    I asked the solicitor from FLAC why they would still threaten court if we had a good case and he said most people would still pay up before it went that far even if they were innocent. And that's what the Council is used to.


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    #36
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    razzler wrote: »
    To deviate a bit, I was surprised the way some people dressed, dirty tracksuits, cloths looking like they were slept in with mucky trainers. But no pyjamas thank God.

    Some people don't even respect themselves, so not so surprising that they would have so little respect for a court.


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    #37
    Twizzler
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭Twizzler


    Delighted to hear justice was served. Congratulations!


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    #38
    Turbulent Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,622 ✭✭✭Turbulent Bill


    razzler wrote: »
    I asked the solicitor from FLAC why they would still threaten court if we had a good case and he said most people would still pay up before it went that far even if they were innocent. And that's what the Council is used to.

    From the CoCo's perspective, I can kind of see the logic of this. If the vast majority of their cases are going to end up in a guilty conviction, they might as well lump the borderline and innocent cases in at the same time and play the odds that people will pay up (or be found guilty anyway when in court). Not condoning this, but it's obviously a reality.

    It's a good lesson not to be afraid of a court appearance if you have a solid case, rather than just buckling and paying for something you didn't do.


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    #39
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    OP, can you or did you get expenses for loss of earnings and other expenses?


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    #40
    razzler
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭razzler


    No, being new to all this (never been to court before) we thought it might look a bit cheeky asking for loss of earnings and might prejudice the judge against us. We were just happy with the win.


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    #41
    kuroino
    Registered Users Posts: 94 ✭✭kuroino


    I have similar situation here. The Kildare CoCo found an envelope from a letter with my _office_ address (in Dublin 3!) that I apparently never received in one of the bags discovered in Maynooth on some date. I live in Dublin 15 and wasn't around Maynooth within few weeks of that date at least.

    I wrote an appeal with a detailed explanations, but it was refused. I guess they did not like my easter european name or something ;)

    I really don't want to spend a day off work in court, which would cost me a little bit more than these 150 euro they want, but on the other hand I don't want to allow the civil cervants to intimidate me in paying fines for the offences I never commited. Stupid situation.


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    #42
    razzler
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭razzler


    Hi Kuroino,
    Sorry for the trouble you're having. It's your decision to pay if it would work out easier for you but on point of principal I wouldn't. If you take it to court it would be a few hours. We got there by 10am and were done by 12. Actual hearing only took 10 mins, it was mostly just waiting for our turn. You could mention to the judge when you're putting your case that you are out a day's pay and if he finds in your favour he could award you the wages you are losing.
    I'd advise you to have a meeting with FLAC (Free Legal Advice Centre). There's one in Blanchardstown by the FAS and Social Welfare office Tel: 076 1075 040. It's 7:30 - 9 pm Mondays but ring for an appiontment. There's other centres where you just walk in with no appointment. There you'll get free advice from a solicitor on where you stand and what may happen should you wish to oppose the fine.
    I think County Councils routinely reject appeals and most innocent people would pay up, too bad. It would be helpful for you if you could find out the nature of the rubbish in the bag to confirm that it wasn't your rubbish, someone else must own the rubbish as you never received the letter.
    I hope it works out for you if you decide not to pay, keep me up to date on what happens, it could take months to come to court so you've plenty of time to think about a course of action.

    Regards
    Razzler


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    #43
    Oleander
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭Oleander


    Hi
    I've just been reading this thread, my mum has received a fine for illegal dumping, we are in the process of working out what to do, she lives in Dublin (northside of the city) and the letter (which has her address on it) was found in a black bag in Co. Louth. Would really like some advice on this matter. Thanks.


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    #44
    razzler
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭razzler


    Hi Oleander, sorry for the trouble your mum is having. A litter charge may not be considered the biggest deal in the world but you'd be surprised at how it can push up the stress levels, always at the back of your mind until it's sorted. If yous decide not to pay the first thing you should do is fill out an appeal form. This will give you the opportunity to outline why you feel the fine shouldn't be imposed, but expect this to be routinely rejected. Be aware that there is a time limit in which you can appeal so this should be done as soon as possible. If (when) the appeal is rejected you can ask to see the 'evidence' and the rest of the rubbish that was in the bag. Your mum would know if it's her rubbish or not. Also, if it's an unopened letter and obviously not junk mail then you might argue that your mum never received it. Or if there's no post mark then it was probably never posted. I'm thinking that it could have been sent to the wrong address and that this person is the guilty party. We weren't entitled to free legal aid, but maybe your mum is. But we went to see a FLAC solicitor in a Citizen's Information centre just for some free advice and I'd recommend yous do the same. They will give you an idea of what your chances will be if it goes to court so you can better decide what course of action to take. If your mum is elderly maybe she doesn't need the stress coming up to Christmas. But if yous decide not to pay then let us know how it goes and best of luck.

    By the way, the FLAC solicitor said that if the judge didn't find in our favour then likely he would just impose the original fine, so nothing to lose.


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    #45
    Oleander
    Registered Users Posts: 462 ✭✭Oleander


    Thank you for your feedback Razzler. The situation now is, my mam(who is 74) has decided not to pay the fine (as she is not guilty). Yes, she can do without the stress (she's not long over cancer treatment - in fact, she was having chemotherapy at the time apparently this rubbish was dumped or found). As a family behind her we all said we would not pay as it is admitting the crime, but we are all younger and we weren't sick. My mam did appeal and it was rejected so now she is waiting for a courts summons. She has seen the evidence (17 black bags of rubbish to include furniture) were dumped in Co. Louth (she lives in Dublin), there was an envelope inside with her name on it and a post mark, the Council sent her a picture of the envelope and she thinks that it was a letter to her but absolutely is bewildered as to how it ended up in that rubbish pile. Her bins are picked up by Greyhound and she always pays her bills on time and she has proof of these bills (in my opinion it is Greyhound responsible for this problem). We won't be entitled to free legal aid. I am so angry about this, my mam is the kindest person in the world who does everything by the book and pays all her bills and doesn't complain, my blood is just boiling thinking about it. Is it a scam on the councils part or the bin collectors, I just don't know, it's just so unfair. Ok, enough rambling, I will let you know what happens, we await the court summons and she has so many people by her side in this.


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    #46
    amdublin
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,650 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Oleander wrote: »
    Her bins are picked up by Greyhound and she always pays her bills on time and she has proof of these bills (in my opinion it is Greyhound responsible for this problem). We won't be entitled to free legal aid.

    Good luck oleander sounds like your mam has great evidence for her defence.

    Why would your mam not be entitled to free legal aid? Have you used the FLAC?


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