Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

mayo.mick · 09-01-2015 1:27pm

deisegreenway wrote: »

Sorry we cant help ye on this as we're below the 50 posts so no photo uploads allowed.

From our campaign's point of view, people took a while to come around to the idea that it's not just about creating a path...a greenway is a tourist attraction that many people will visit a region especially for, it's a place for locals of all ages to meet up with friends/family for a cycle/walk, it directly and indirectly creates jobs, it's a way of popping over to the next village, it's a way to commute, it's a way to get to your fishing spot.

Waterford as a county is really starting to see the potential now and the Kilmacthomas post we put up on Facebook this week gave us our best indication of this. We've had emails from Dunhill, Dunmore East, Portlaw, Lismore, Cappoquin...none of these are on the Deise Greenway route but they want to be connected to it somehow!

Hi deisegreenway,

It got too late last night, I was going to contact you to ask if I could use some of your photos to upload to the thread here. I could link them directly but they are HUGE, boards.ie have an image upload max size of 800px. I can download them, resize and upload directly to the thread here? Or if the mods allow, I can direct link them, but they are big!

deisegreenway · 09-01-2015 1:50pm

mayo.mick wrote: »

Hi deisegreenway,

It got too late last night, I was going to contact you to ask if I could use some of your photos to upload to the thread here. I could link them directly but they are HUGE, boards.ie have an image upload max size of 800px. I can download them, resize and upload directly to the thread here? Or if the mods allow, I can direct link them, but they are big!

Hi mayo mick, feel free to PM your email address and I'll resize them to 800px wide and email them to you...would this work? Many thanks

mayo.mick · 09-01-2015 2:45pm

Some photos, courtesy of Deise Greenway and their Facebook Page

What can be achieved and the spin off from tourism.

Thanks to Deise Greenway for sending these on. They have loads more photos on their website and facebook page, do check them out.

elastico · 09-01-2015 3:05pm

Join this Deise greenway to Rosslare port, Limerick Junction and New Ross anybody?

Steam trains from Athenry to Tuam so cycle tourists could also connect from LJ to Westport -Achill greenway, Tralee - Fenit greenway etc.

deisegreenway · 09-01-2015 3:09pm

elastico wrote: »

Join this Deise greenway to Rosslare port, Limerick Junction and New Ross anybody?

Steam trains from Athenry to Tuam so cycle tourists could also connect from LJ to Westport -Achill greenway, Tralee - Fenit greenway etc.

Waterford to New Ross via the old railway goes to planning this year.
St Mullins (just north of New Ross) to Athy and beyond along the Barrow towpath goes to planning in Q1

BoatMad · 09-01-2015 3:12pm

elastico wrote: »

Join this Deise greenway to Rosslare port, Limerick Junction and New Ross anybody?

Steam trains from Athenry to Tuam so cycle tourists could also connect from LJ to Westport -Achill greenway, Tralee - Fenit greenway etc.

I certainly would not support a waterford to limerick junction greenway, that has an operating railway and that should be the focus

There is no way greenway proposals should ever been seen as a quick solution to allow the removal of an operating railway

eastwest · 09-01-2015 3:21pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I certainly would not support a waterford to limerick junction greenway, that has an operating railway and that should be the focus

There is no way greenway proposals should ever been seen as a quick solution to allow the removal of an operating railway

Put it in as a parallel greenway; keep the line.

Rawr · 09-01-2015 3:34pm

eastwest wrote: »

Put it in as a parallel greenway; keep the line.

My feeling too. A parallel greenway might even result in an increase in passengers on that route.

Jem72 · 09-01-2015 3:52pm

Speaking as somebody who has walked the whole Royal canal, having the railway beside it simplifies the logistics of the walk enormously. You can very easily break the walk into sections and take the train back at the end of the day. It makes it possible for people to decide to walk a route over the course of six months and so expands the potential users of the greenway away from those capable of walking 150km in few days off.

Admittedly the Sligo line is a bit of a special case as there is plenty of space to have a greenway on the canal which never gets too far from the railway before Mullingar.

end of the road · 09-01-2015 4:32pm

Hungerford wrote: »

Indeed. In the North, Sustrans have emerged as the main obstacle to any plans for the reopening of Belfast-Comber railway. Such was their opposition that it wasn't even considered in the recent railway consultation up there.

exactly. they need to be stopped from doing such things.

westtip · 09-01-2015 4:48pm

eastwest wrote: »

Put it in as a parallel greenway; keep the line.

Good idea for Athenry to Limerick as well - parallel railway and greenway all the way - it would increase usage of the railway as well - bike one way train the other. nice day out .....Oh and yes I know IR would have to allow bikes on trains.

Carawaystick · 09-01-2015 4:58pm

westtip wrote: »

Good idea for Athenry to Limerick as well - parallel railway and greenway all the way - it would increase usage of the railway as well - bike one way train the other. nice day out .....Oh and yes I know IR would have to allow bikes on trains.

Only off peak, it'd be awful for paying passengers to have no room...

westtip · 09-01-2015 4:59pm

deisegreenway wrote: »

Waterford to New Ross via the old railway goes to planning this year.
St Mullins (just north of New Ross) to Athy and beyond along the Barrow towpath goes to planning in Q1

Good for you guys, we have only just turned the corner in getting the decision from the Minister of Transport that the Western Rail Trail is now the preferred option of the Department of Transport for the closed railway from Athenry to Collooney in county Sligo; your pics on your FB page show what the potential is, the businesses in the west in the tourism trade are delighted with the Governments decision and hope they will get it moving as soon as possible, It's looking positive though for the western rail trail as well.

BoatMad · 09-01-2015 5:07pm

Rawr wrote: »

My feeling too. A parallel greenway might even result in an increase in passengers on that route.

I can't see IR agreeing to significant greenways along side active active railway, ( and I have my views as Ive aired them hear as to the practicality of even having them run in such a way as a line could be re-open,

If you walk any significant amount of single line, you will see that the railways uses all that space for spoil, ballast etc, not to mention cabling , electrical cabinetry etc

the key at the moment is to ensure IR don't continue to deactivate the network. Greenways are an entirely different argument.

deisegreenway · 09-01-2015 5:44pm

westtip wrote: »

Good for you guys, we have only just turned the corner in getting the decision from the Minister of Transport that the Western Rail Trail is now the preferred option of the Department of Transport for the closed railway from Athenry to Collooney in county Sligo; your pics on your FB page show what the potential is, the businesses in the west in the tourism trade are delighted with the Governments decision and hope they will get it moving as soon as possible, It's looking positive though for the western rail trail as well.

It certainly is looking positive, 2014 may well have been a landmark year for your campaign. We check your Facebook page almost daily for updates and more good news. Unfortunately all these things take an eternity, the Deise Greenway project is a decade old now...with 4km completed in that time.

eastwest · 09-01-2015 6:12pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Only off peak, it'd be awful for paying passengers to have no room...

....to walk around and listen to the echo!

eastwest · 09-01-2015 6:24pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I can't see IR agreeing to significant greenways along side active active railway, ( and I have my views as Ive aired them hear as to the practicality of even having them run in such a way as a line could be re-open,

If you walk any significant amount of single line, you will see that the railways uses all that space for spoil, ballast etc, not to mention cabling , electrical cabinetry etc

the key at the moment is to ensure IR don't continue to deactivate the network. Greenways are an entirely different argument.

They're happy enough to do it in every other country where lines aren't being expanded. Google 'rails with trails' and see the US experience.
The benefits to railroads companies in the US were as follows:

Reduced liability costs;
Financial compensation.
Reduced petty crime, trespassing, dumping, and vandalism;
Reduced illegal track crossings through channelization of users to grade-separated or well-designed at-grade crossings;
Increased public awareness of railroad company service;
Increased tourism revenue;
Increased adjacent property values; and
Improved access to transit for law enforcement and maintenance vehicles

In Ireland, we have no problem routing bike lanes (unfenced) alongside the Luas line in Dublin, or behind a chainlink fence along the DART line in Seapoint. We also don't see the need to separate bikes from trucks on minor roads, but we balk at running trains behind a fence along a bike path.
It's a mindset thing, but all we have to do is copy the experience elsewhere. Services can be run under paths no problem; there is a 220 kv powerline under the grand Union canal towpath out of London, and another one under the canal path in Dublin in Inchicore.
everything is possible; minor problems are just engineering issues to be sorted. Political thinking is the biggest hurdle, always was. Let the engineers have it and they'll sort it, they always do.

westtip · 12-01-2015 10:41am

Just in case you think I have got myself an influential job on the editorial side of the Irish Times, I haven't. But one word to say about todays lead in the IT.

WOW!!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/open-the-greenway-1.2062388

sonnyblack · 12-01-2015 2:29pm

westtip wrote: »

Just in case you think I have got myself an influential job on the editorial side of the Irish Times, I haven't. But one word to say about todays lead in the IT.

WOW!!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/open-the-greenway-1.2062388

Someone in the IT has taken a very big interest in the WRC alright. What did you think of their suggestion for a commuter link from Tuam to Galway?

westtip · 12-01-2015 3:07pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

Someone in the IT has taken a very big interest in the WRC alright. What did you think of their suggestion for a commuter link from Tuam to Galway?

I think they couched the words very carefully by saying "could make commercial sense, provided modern rolling stock and attractive on-line fares are available." - emphasis on the word could.

Part of this editorial could be taken very favourably by West on Track who seldom mention Claremorris/Collooney these days and in reality only ever talk about getting the railway as far as Claremorris.

The thing the editorial has not mentioned is the motorway from Tuam to Gort interlinking with the M6 at Rathmorrisey which will have the joint effect of vastly reducing traffic on the old N18 that goes through Claregalway - as all traffic bypassing Galway will use the new road, and the actual travel time on the M17/M6 route into Galway from Tuam using the Rathmorrisey interchange will reduce xpress bus speeds from Tuam to Galway. Rail will simply not be able to compete with the speeds buses will probably achieve. Not to mention buses will be able to go directly to where people work - the industrial parks in places like Balybrit.

eastwest · 12-01-2015 3:24pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

Someone in the IT has taken a very big interest in the WRC alright. What did you think of their suggestion for a commuter link from Tuam to Galway?

A big slice of the commuter traffic from Tuam to Galway is headed for the industrial sites on the North side of the city. These will be accessible in fifteen minutes from Tuam once the motorway opens. The rest will be a further ten minutes by bus; the train hasn't a chance of competing with buses on time and price, as well as convenience; the station is away from everything but the shopping areas.
The so-called 'western rail corridor' is dead in the water, it's just not going to happen in any shape or form in the next forty years at least. The Times is dead right to call for the Western rail Trail to be built now though, it's a complete no-brainer and it's now the only way to protect the asset. Once farmers and other would-be squatters have absorbed the news that the railway is definitely not happening, the barbed wire will be going up everywhere as people rush to grab a bit of public land that they know is being officially abandoned. The squatting might be bad already, but it will escalate now.

elastico · 12-01-2015 4:31pm

eastwest wrote: »

and it's now the only way to protect the asset. Once farmers and other would-be squatters have absorbed the news that the railway is definitely not happening, the barbed wire will be going up everywhere as people rush to grab a bit of public land that they know is being officially abandoned. The squatting might be bad already, but it will escalate now.

Small bit of truth stretching there!

The asset has already been protected, it was fenced off and cleared a few years ago! Yes a greenway is probably the best way to protect it, but not the only way!

Nobody has mentioned officially abandoning the line either, we all know its as good as abandoned years ago anyway but I don't see any new official announcement on this.

eastwest · 12-01-2015 4:54pm

elastico wrote: »

Small bit of truth stretching there!

The asset has already been protected, it was fenced off and cleared a few years ago! Yes a greenway is probably the best way to protect it, but not the only way!

Nobody has mentioned officially abandoning the line either, we all know its as good as abandoned years ago anyway but I don't see any new official announcement on this.

Unfortunately, the fencing off of much of the south Sligo stretch has been ignored; sections of it have been completely subsumed into private farms and gardens. Even in the fenced-off sections, some bits have been taken over as cattle-wintering areas, dumps for waste and storage areas for silage and farm machinery. In the case of silage, storing it on CIE property avoids polluting waterways directly from the farms in question but allows the pollution to happen without any kind of censure.
The northern section in Sligo is already almost lost with fences, driveways and gardens built on it in several places.
Any kind of official signal that the line is a dead duck (and anyone who read recent announcements differently is not listening) will inevitably bring out the barbed wire everywhere as farmers make sure that none of their neighbours capture the bit that runs alongside their own properties, as well as grabbing what they can for themselves. It is now effectively a free for all, and short of CIE suddenly finding a budget to patrol a line that they have no interest in, a greenway is the best way to protect the asset for future generations.

bizguy · 12-01-2015 5:02pm

eastwest wrote: »

Unfortunately, the fencing off of much of the south Sligo stretch has been ignored; sections of it have been completely subsumed into private farms and gardens. Even in the fenced-off sections, some bits have been taken over as cattle-wintering areas, dumps for waste and storage areas for silage and farm machinery. In the case of silage, storing it on CIE property avoids polluting waterways directly from the farms in question but allows the pollution to happen without any kind of censure.
The northern section in Sligo is already almost lost with fences, driveways and gardens built on it in several places.
Any kind of official signal that the line is a dead duck (and anyone who read recent announcements differently is not listening) will inevitably bring out the barbed wire everywhere as farmers make sure that none of their neighbours capture the bit that runs alongside their own properties, as well as grabbing what they can for themselves. It is now effectively a free for all, and short of CIE suddenly finding a budget to patrol a line that they have no interest in, a greenway is the best way to protect the asset for future generations.

If you stole €50 off someone walking in the street, it'd be theft and you'd be in the barracks.
If you took someone's car and never gave it back, it'd be theft and you'd be in the barracks.

How can people STEAL land that's not theirs and be allowed get away with it?

end of the road · 12-01-2015 5:04pm

bizguy wrote: »

If you stole €50 off someone walking in the street, it'd be theft and you'd be in the barracks.
If you took someone's car and never gave it back, it'd be theft and you'd be in the barracks.

How can people STEAL land that's not theirs and be allowed get away with it?

because nobody has the balls to do anything about it.

mayo.mick · 12-01-2015 5:28pm

Mod edit: Images removed as we're not in a position to confirm ownership or other agreements of those individual cases.

-- Moderator

foggy_lad · 12-01-2015 5:41pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/open-the-greenway-1.2062388

improvements in services on the Athenry/Ennis section of the line saw passenger numbers increase by almost 80 per cent.

They completely ignore the fact that the fares were halved at least to artificially boost numbers on the line. let it run for a couple of years without fear or favour and then make a rational decision on it's future based on the real numbers!

eastwest · 12-01-2015 7:08pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/open-the-greenway-1.2062388They completely ignore the fact that the fares were halved at least to artificially boost numbers on the line. let it run for a couple of years without fear or favour and then make a rational decision on it's future based on the real numbers!

Eighty percent of SFA is still SFA.

elastico · 12-01-2015 7:13pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/open-the-greenway-1.2062388They completely ignore the fact that the fares were halved at least to artificially boost numbers on the line. let it run for a couple of years without fear or favour and then make a rational decision on it's future based on the real numbers!

Was it not just online fares that were slashed?

In fairness fares from Dublin to other cities are slashed online to €14.99, travelling longer distances, as well, so its not just a special reduction for this line.

Also previously a lot of passenger base seemed to be oaps and students etc., I don't think the reduced fares benefited the largest part of the previous customer base.

eastwest · 12-01-2015 7:13pm

mayo.mick wrote: »

Mod edit: Images removed as we're not in a position to confirm ownership or other agreements of those individual cases.

-- Moderator

That's a scandalous land-grab of a publicly-owned asset; somebody in CIE needs their ass kicked.
While they know that the line is never going to be reopened, they have a responsibility to us (the owners) to protect the asset and to stop this kind of adverse possession theft.
I'm always amazed that none of the so-called 'pro-rail' lobby has ever condemned this theft, but in a way, it sort-of makes sense. Most of the WOT supporters in local politics are just riding a ship of convenience, following whatever they perceive to be the wind direction. They don't want to upset the squatters by taking them to task, no more than they want to upset the railway buffs.

elastico · 12-01-2015 7:38pm

eastwest wrote: »

While they know that the line is never going to be reopened, they have a responsibility to us (the owners) to protect the asset and to stop this kind of adverse possession theft.

In fairness, the job of a railway company is to operate a railway, and if they know there will never be a railway on this section again, why should they waste money on it, instead of spending imporvements on existing services?

westtip · 12-01-2015 7:48pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/open-the-greenway-1.2062388They completely ignore the fact that the fares were halved at least to artificially boost numbers on the line. let it run for a couple of years without fear or favour and then make a rational decision on it's future based on the real numbers!

Indeed - will they see an 80% increase this year or will it plateau at 50,000 and less anyone forget, The number of passenger journeys on the Ennis/Athenry line has now reached about 50,000 per annum up from about 34,000 last year. Yes this is a high percentage increase, but the average number of passengers per train remains low – at a paltry 14 per train.
The business case presented by West on Track to the last government to rebuild the railway was based on a forecast of 100,000 passenger journey’s in year one (2010) rising to 250,000 by year three (2013). The line has been open four years and has not yet hit half of its year one forecast, despite massive cut price fare promotions. Yes, thankfully the numbers are better but they need to be put in perspective. And don't forget West on Track forecast a demand of 750,000 journies a year on the route back in 2006. They can't be trusted when it comes to numbers.

Now West on Track are focussing on Freight!! What freight? It is well catered for on the existing route out of Ballina - and Ballina is hardly the clapham junction of freight yards. WOT are getting excited about 1,000 trains a year out of Ballina, that's 19 a week just over two freight trains a day, why build a new freight line for two trains a day? It's clutching at straws but we have come to expect it. However WOT will not go away - they have just posted the comments by An Taoiseach this weekend - they cornered him at a meeting in Castlebar to get some clawback and get him to backtrack on his comments on the radio before Christmas - more fence sitting coming soon.

sonnyblack · 12-01-2015 7:58pm

westtip wrote: »

Indeed - will they see an 80% increase this year or will it plateau at 50,000 and less anyone forget, The number of passenger journeys on the Ennis/Athenry line has now reached about 50,000 per annum up from about 34,000 last year. Yes this is a high percentage increase, but the average number of passengers per train remains low – at a paltry 14 per train.
The business case presented by West on Track to the last government to rebuild the railway was based on a forecast of 100,000 passenger journey’s in year one (2010) rising to 250,000 by year three (2013). The line has been open four years and has not yet hit half of its year one forecast, despite massive cut price fare promotions. Yes, thankfully the numbers are better but they need to be put in perspective. And don't forget West on Track forecast a demand of 750,000 journies a year on the route back in 2006. They can't be trusted when it comes to numbers.

Now West on Track are focussing on Freight!! What freight? It is well catered for on the existing route out of Ballina - and Ballina is hardly the clapham junction of freight yards. WOT are getting excited about 1,000 trains a year out of Ballina, that's 19 a week just over two freight trains a day, why build a new freight line for two trains a day? It's clutching at straws but we have come to expect it. However WOT will not go away - they have just posted the comments by An Taoiseach this weekend - they cornered him at a meeting in Castlebar to get some clawback and get him to backtrack on his comments on the radio before Christmas - more fence sitting coming soon.

Have you any link to that article/news? Is Enda flip flopping now? Presumeably they are trying to get the line extended to Claremorris to get a freight route from Ballina south to Manulla junction and on down to Waterford via Limerick? They must have some clout in Mayo still.

corktina · 12-01-2015 8:21pm

there's is no point whatsover in diverting freight trains on to this route just to make it more viable, when it makes other routes less viable. The only potential for freight is what is exploitable actually on the route and I can guess that that equates to exactly nothing on the whole route from Sligo to Limerick

mayo.mick · 12-01-2015 8:26pm

sonnyblack wrote: »

Have you any link to that article/news? Is Enda flip flopping now? Presumeably they are trying to get the line extended to Claremorris to get a freight route from Ballina south to Manulla junction and on down to Waterford via Limerick? They must have some clout in Mayo still.

No link online, scan of today's Western.

Enda's comment,

MOD EDIT: PLEASE DON'T POST FULL ARTICLES HERE. SEE THE CHARTER FOR DETAILS.

Grandeeod · 12-01-2015 8:29pm

eastwest wrote: »

That's a scandalous land-grab of a publicly-owned asset; somebody in CIE needs their ass kicked.
While they know that the line is never going to be reopened, they have a responsibility to us (the owners) to protect the asset and to stop this kind of adverse possession theft.
I'm always amazed that none of the so-called 'pro-rail' lobby has ever condemned this theft, but in a way, it sort-of makes sense. Most of the WOT supporters in local politics are just riding a ship of convenience, following whatever they perceive to be the wind direction. They don't want to upset the squatters by taking them to task, no more than they want to upset the railway buffs.

That's more or less it alright. I remember the heady days in 2004, when photos similar to those were presented online. What followed was a stoney silence. One thing I have noticed over the years on internet forums, is that when a fact is presented that doesn't suit a particular argument, the vow of avoidance and silence is applied by those fighting the losing battle.

WOT are a disgrace. Some politicians are also disgrace. The entire WRC was a gravy train for those trying to make a name for themselves and others who were so bored with their lives, they felt obliged to get on board. Yet to this day, there still exists people that believe it should be reopened all the way to DERRY! The elephant in the room was always and still remains the land grab north of Claremorris.

eastwest · 12-01-2015 9:17pm

elastico wrote: »

In fairness, the job of a railway company is to operate a railway, and if they know there will never be a railway on this section again, why should they waste money on it, instead of spending imporvements on existing services?

They also have a responsibility to protect the assets; they aren't free to give them away or to allow them to be stolen.

BoatMad · 12-01-2015 9:25pm

The law around adverse possession needs serious attention in Ireland. Especially law occupied by a disused railway

On another note, I find it entirely disheartening that advocates of greenways try to run down railways. A greenway is not a transport system, its a tourist trail. It should have justification in its own merits. If it can co-exist along side a railway then I am prepared to give that notion the benefit of the doubt ( even though I have doubts). But I find it hard to stomach letters to the times knocking WOT or WRC merely to then justify a replacement greenway. WOT and WRC have loads of issues, that in itself doesn't mean its fair game for the greenway advocates.

westtip · 12-01-2015 11:13pm

BoatMad wrote: »

The law around adverse possession needs serious attention in Ireland. Especially law occupied by a disused railway

On another note, I find it entirely disheartening that advocates of greenways try to run down railways. A greenway is not a transport system, its a tourist trail. It should have justification in its own merits. If it can co-exist along side a railway then I am prepared to give that notion the benefit of the doubt ( even though I have doubts). But I find it hard to stomach letters to the times knocking WOT or WRC merely to then justify a replacement greenway. WOT and WRC have loads of issues, that in itself doesn't mean its fair game for the greenway advocates.

Ah I see so people in New York using the "High Line" to walk or cycle to work on not commuting on a transport system using sensible infrastructure, the people using routes such as the Bath/Bristol greenway in the UK to cycle to work everyday are not commuters? If children cycled from Charlestown to Tubbercurry to go to St Atractas school everyday they would not be commuters? Really I don't give a toss that you don't like the opinions expressed about groups like WOT that are holding back the development of infrastructure when there is no hope of a railway. Claremorris/Collooney closed down in 1963. That is 51 years ago. It is not going to re-open the railway does not exist anymore can you try and get that into your head. ?The railway does not exist anymore. It's gone, finnito adios. The route does not belong to West on Track. West on Track are being criticized on this matter because they simply will not accept that there is no government ever going to rebuild the Western Rail Corridor - in fact we should stop using that term because it only exists in the imagination of West on Track.

BoatMad · 12-01-2015 11:30pm

westtip wrote: »

Ah I see so people in New York using the "High Line" to walk or cycle to work on not commuting on a transport system using sensible infrastructure, the people using routes such as the Bath/Bristol greenway in the UK to cycle to work everyday are not commuters? If children cycled from Charlestown to Tubbercurry to go to St Atractas school everyday they would not be commuters? Really I don't give a toss that you don't like the opinions expressed about groups like WOT that are holding back the development of infrastructure when there is no hope of a railway. Claremorris/Collooney closed down in 1963. That is 51 years ago. It is not going to re-open the railway does not exist anymore can you try and get that into your head. ?The railway does not exist anymore. It's gone, finnito adios. The route does not belong to West on Track. West on Track are being criticized on this matter because they simply will not accept that there is no government ever going to rebuild the Western Rail Corridor - in fact we should stop using that term because it only exists in the imagination of West on Track.

I know WOT has its faults, but what you said was also said about the Ennis Athenry section.

Im not arguing against a greenway. But its silly to suggest a rural greenway is a commuter facility. Its clearly a tourist attraction thing. Thats how most projects are being viewed. ( I just finished reading the proposals for the Athlone greenway /cycleway

I always get concerned when the zealotry starts

westtip · 12-01-2015 11:51pm

BoatMad wrote: »

I know WOT has its faults, but what you said was also said about the Ennis Athenry section.

Exactly and it has failed. 50,000 passengers in year four with fares slashed to attract them and it is only at 50% of its year one business case forecast - it has failed miserably don't you get that or do you believe 14 passengers per train after four years is a success?

BoatMad wrote: »

Im not arguing against a greenway.

You could have fooled me!

BoatMad wrote: »

But its silly to suggest a rural greenway is a commuter facility. Its clearly a tourist attraction thing. Thats how most projects are being viewed. ( I just finished reading the proposals for the Athlone greenway /cycleway

I always get concerned when the zealotry starts

Not quite as plain stupid to suggest a railway will be used by commuters in the west of Ireland to any great extent. However if 50 children a day going to St Attractas started cycling to school using the greenway I would see them as commuters. Locals need a place to walk -- that is the beauty of these things they bring local amenity value and the tourist create jobs by spending money so there are people living in the country to use the local greenway.

I get lost in a lot or your posts. I am sure others do. I am not actually sure what you want to see.

sonnyblack · 13-01-2015 9:12am

Before the Western People image was taken down by mod, Enda now seems to be hinting at a greenway and a freight railway existing side by side, but at a safe distance, from Claremorris to Athenry. Is this going to be feasible I wonder? It seems at odds with what Donohue said last week.

westtip · 13-01-2015 10:06am

sonnyblack wrote: »

Before the Western People image was taken down by mod, Enda now seems to be hinting at a greenway and a freight railway existing side by side, but at a safe distance, from Claremorris to Athenry. Is this going to be feasible I wonder? It seems at odds with what Donohue said last week.

At a safe distance - why do we make things so complicated in Ireland! Enda knows full well that the business case for the freight line does not exist. West on Track say there are 1000 trains a year out of Ballina that could be routed via Claremorris to Foynes, the problem is a lot of these are Coca-Cola loads - which are shipped to Europe either through Dublin port or Rosslare Europort. In any event that is just over 2 trains a day going on the Westport line on which there is plenty of capacity. Its not as if there is a capacity issue for freight that requires capital investment in a new rail line on an old railway alignment. The freight argument is a red herring, Donohoe knows that, Kenny knows that even West on Track know it. The west on track mantra now is stop the greenway until the next election and then we are back to groundhog day talking to a new administration who may have given the faintest promise of the railway opening - but not until their second term in office......Do you get the picture?

elastico · 13-01-2015 10:11am

westtip wrote: »

Ah I see so people in New York using the "High Line" to walk or cycle to work on not commuting on a transport system using sensible infrastructure, the people using routes such as the Bath/Bristol greenway in the UK to cycle to work everyday are not commuters? If children cycled from Charlestown to Tubbercurry to go to St Atractas school everyday they would not be commuters? Really I don't give a toss that you don't like the opinions expressed about groups like WOT that are holding back the development of infrastructure when there is no hope of a railway. Claremorris/Collooney closed down in 1963. That is 51 years ago. It is not going to re-open the railway does not exist anymore can you try and get that into your head. ?The railway does not exist anymore. It's gone, finnito adios. The route does not belong to West on Track. West on Track are being criticized on this matter because they simply will not accept that there is no government ever going to rebuild the Western Rail Corridor - in fact we should stop using that term because it only exists in the imagination of West on Track.

You seem to be grasping at straws comparing it to New York, where millions of people actually live!:rolleyes:

If a few kids want to cycle to school on a sunny day there is already a piece of tax payer funded infrastructure available to them, its called a road.

And as for no government going to rebuild the Western Rail Corridor, they have already rebuilt Limerick - Athenry and Enda has just announced more of it is to be reopened for freight.;)

westtip · 13-01-2015 10:24am

elastico wrote: »

You seem to be grasping at straws comparing it to New York, where millions of people actually live!:rolleyes:

If a few kids want to cycle to school on a sunny day there is already a piece of tax payer funded infrastructure available to them, its called a road.

And as for no government going to rebuild the Western Rail Corridor, they have already rebuilt Limerick - Athenry and Enda has just announced more of it is to be reopened for freight.;)

Would you let your children cycle on our "quiet" country roads between 8.45 and 9.00 am - you clearly don't have children!

This government will not rebuild the WRC the last one yes did build the ennis/athenry line - I seem to recall fond memories that the government at time got this country into such a debt crisis and basically threw money at any project any pressure group asked for - do you recall the comment "the western rail corridor (Ennis/Ahenry line) was built for political reasons" by Leo Varadkar - do you really think those days are going to return??!!!!

Enda has not made any such announcement - where on earth do you get that from? - that is the kind of BullSh*t west on Track come out with when a politician gives them a glimmer of hope. He said in a meeting in Castlebar the potential for a freight could be looked at or words to that effect, and would need a sound business case built - and we all know about the businees case for Ennis Athenry. Endas comment was a backtracking sop to the toys out of pram reaction WOT had to his realistic comments on the airwaves before Christmas originally on Mid West but thankfully also broadcast on national radio on Drivetime earlier this week and reported in regional and national media, if he starts going on about the WRC again that clip will be played again and again to remind him of what he said on the public airwaves, its on you tube if you want to go listen. Announcements about any Transport infrastructure projects will come from the Department of Transport, I seem to recall the current Minister and the last Minister and in fact Enda have made it very clear, The Western Rail Corridor is not going to be extended. If the good folks in WOT feel they have been thrown a lifeline in relation to freight by some comment in Castlebar that was not broadcast on the national airwaves by Enda, they are more delusional than I ever imagined. Its not happening. Have you got the message?

cgcsb · 13-01-2015 10:32am

To be fair to the existing section between Ennis and Athenry, it opened in the middle of the deepest recession in decades. Of course it should have been properly engineered in the first place, to provide a reasonable frequency and a journey time superior to road, and indeed it should have only been done after more heavily used were improved, e.g. double traking to Athlone, improved speeds on Dub-Cork, alas here we are. Opening more sections of it is of course nonsense, especially when it takes over 2 and half hours to get to Cork and it seems almost every train is wedged.

Rawr · 13-01-2015 11:36am

westtip wrote: »

Not quite as plain stupid to suggest a railway will be used by commuters in the west of Ireland to any great extent. However if 50 children a day going to St Attractas started cycling to school using the greenway I would see them as commuters. Locals need a place to walk -- that is the beauty of these things they bring local amenity value and the tourist create jobs by spending money so there are people living in the country to use the local greenway.

Very much argee.
I believe when thinking about using a Greenway on an disused rail alignment, we need to consider that this another way of re-activating it as a transport corridor.

It is easy to think of Greenways as just pleasant pathway that people can walk or cycle upon in their leisure time. It can be used for leisure, but it also far more functional than that.

Consider if the WRC was converted into a Greenway. If you lived in Tuam, it would now be an option for you to cycle to either Claremorris or Athenry and transfer to train there, or simply to cycle commute to the nearest town for whatever need may present itself. The Greenway itself does not have a timetable, and can be practically used at any time.

The alignment isn't ridiculously far from Knock Airport either, allowing for the possibility of taking a train to Claremorris, and then transferring by cycle to the Western Greenway Corridor (new name, just thought of it

), taking it north to Swinford where a possible 'Branch-Greenway' could take you all the way to the Airport terminal, without the need of finding a shuttle bus of any type.

These are just a handful of possible commuting scenarios that I have imagined out of countless potential others.

The main point I'm trying to make is that Greenways are not only a leasure/tourism resource. These 2 things are a massive bonus of Greenways, but the big bonus here is a facility for effective and safer cycle commuting.

There can be many arguments to be made for and against the need to segregate cycle commuting lanes from motor traffic. Many of those arguments have their own merits and failings. However, I am of the belief that more people would opt to cycle-commute if they had a dedicated cycle-ways for that. A Greenway would serve this need, as well as possibly encourage parents to send children cycling to school via greenway, instead of being shuttled via motor.

I feel that all of these possibilities are important to consider before dismissing a Greenway as...well...just a path...

westtip · 13-01-2015 1:28pm

Rawr wrote: »

Very much argee.
I believe when thinking about using a Greenway on an disused rail alignment, we need to consider that this another way of re-activating it as a transport corridor.

It is easy to think of Greenways as just pleasant pathway that people can walk or cycle upon in their leisure time. It can be used for leisure, but it also far more functional than that.

Consider if the WRC was converted into a Greenway. If you lived in Tuam, it would now be an option for you to cycle to either Claremorris or Athenry and transfer to train there, or simply to cycle commute to the nearest town for whatever need may present itself. The Greenway itself does not have a timetable, and can be practically used at any time.

The alignment isn't ridiculously far from Knock Airport either, allowing for the possibility of taking a train to Claremorris, and then transferring by cycle to the Western Greenway Corridor (new name, just thought of it ), taking it north to Swinford where a possible 'Branch-Greenway' could take you all the way to the Airport terminal, without the need of finding a shuttle bus of any type.

These are just a handful of possible commuting scenarios that I have imagined out of countless potential others.

The main point I'm trying to make is that Greenways are not only a leasure/tourism resource. These 2 things are a massive bonus of Greenways, but the big bonus here is a facility for effective and safer cycle commuting.

There can be many arguments to be made for and against the need to segregate cycle commuting lanes from motor traffic. Many of those arguments have their own merits and failings. However, I am of the belief that more people would opt to cycle-commute if they had a dedicated cycle-ways for that. A Greenway would serve this need, as well as possibly encourage parents to send children cycling to school via greenway, instead of being shuttled via motor.

I feel that all of these possibilities are important to consider before dismissing a Greenway as...well...just a path...

Great post, entirely agree as you might expect. Not to mention burying a high quality fibre optic cabling under the greenway to grow our technology jobs in these small towns and communities along the way. High net worth jobs can be transferred from urban areas to rural areas with the right technology infrastrucure.

Re name - the greenway groups along the line have been looking at this and want to get away from greenway (synonymous with "The Greenway" AKA The great western or "Mayo Greenway", also want to get away from "corridor" which is linked with errr....now let me guess. Western Greenway corridor is good but Sligo Mayo greenway and Tuam greenway Group have come up with "Western Rail Trail" It will be the only greenway that sticks rigidly to the old railway as its right of way (Mayo greenway diverts and dublin-galway greenway uses canal towpaths old railways and small roads. Rail Trail as a concept is well used in States and NZ therefore has a naming pedigree and it will leverage the railway heritage which is really rich along this route. The positioning statemen is

"The Western Rail Trail an eighty mile trail following the closed railway from Athenry to Collooney in Sligo offering connections to the Great Western Greenway in Mayo and the Dublin Galway Greenway in Athenry; Discover parts of Ireland other greenways don't reach"

We hope it happens and the Minister sticks to his guns on this one, and Enda doesn't get too diverted too much by Percy the Goods train (Percy you may recall is the goods train in the Thomas Tank stories) Apparently West on Track got a new story book for christmas which features Percy.

Grandeeod · 13-01-2015 2:06pm

westtip wrote: »

We hope it happens and the Minister sticks to his guns on this one, and Enda doesn't get too diverted too much by Percy the Goods train (Percy you may recall is the goods train in the Thomas Tank stories) Apparently West on Track got a new story book for christmas which features Percy.

It's nearly election season. This talk of freight trains is scary.:eek:

corktina · 13-01-2015 2:58pm

there is no freight potential, it's a Red Herring.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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