A Golden Dawn in Greece

IrishAm · 12-06-2012 12:58am

charlemont wrote: »

Off topic I know but what your saying is true, It was fashionable here to hire foreign workers (even in unskilled jobs) over Irish people who had no serious qualifications. So yet again we only have ourselves to blame.

Why in your opinion, do you think employers would choose a newly arrived migrant over a native Irish person?

Ping Chow Chi · 12-06-2012 12:49pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Was that a typo or gay porn that you hope to find in the library?

lol - typo - but you never know

IrishAm · 02-08-2012 10:33pm

Nodin wrote: »

Another baseless anecdote. However it is useful, in that illustrates how the likes of Golden Dawn get votes - urban myths, half truths and prejudice.

And by feeding their people.

Greece's far-right Golden Dawn party has been handing out free food to residents of Athens - but only to card-carrying Greek citizens and not to immigrants.

Pasta, milk, potatoes and cooking oil were given to around 500 Greeks who gathered with IDs to prove their citizenship in the main Syntagma Square but immigrants were told to "clear off", according to one photographer.

They must drop this Greece for the Greeks stuff. They should provide food for all and focus on the illegal immigrants in Greece. I believe they would make great inroads forward if they adopted a softer stance on legal immigrants.

Corkfeen · 02-08-2012 10:43pm

IrishAm wrote: »

And by feeding their people.

The Nazis were also rather charitable, it doesn't mean that they should be trusted... A party holding extreme stances such as Golden Dawn, promise the world by claiming to be for the people while ignoring the actual issues and choosing to blame it on the outsiders etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterhilfswerk

IrishAm · 03-08-2012 1:10am

Corkfeen wrote: »

The Nazis were also rather charitable, it doesn't mean that they should be trusted... A party holding extreme stances such as Golden Dawn, promise the world by claiming to be for the people while ignoring the actual issues and choosing to blame it on the outsiders etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterhilfswerk

Every move the Golden Dawn make can somehow by interpreted as, or intertwined with, Nazi ideology.

I really don't see why they are getting bad press for feeding badly pressed Greeks. Granted, they should have offered food to all legal Greek residents.

They really do need to stop with the Greece for the Greeks stuff and welcome EU citizens and highly skilled non EU citizens. But, they did get 7% of the vote as is. Stuff like food drives and making Voula Papachristou out to be a "martyr" to the "cause" should help increase their support base. Its been a good work or so for them, politically.

03-08-2012 1:27am

It all sounds so American Gangster.

Quite scary, also!

Nodin · 03-08-2012 1:48am

IrishAm wrote: »

Every move the Golden Dawn make can somehow by interpreted as, or intertwined with, Nazi ideology.

..........

Yep, and for good reason too.
http://xathess.blogspot.gr/

That doesn't look like a St Vincent De Paul styled organisation to me.

IrishAm · 03-08-2012 2:10am

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, and for good reason too.
http://xathess.blogspot.gr/

That doesn't look like a St Vincent De Paul styled organisation to me.

I can not speak Greek, Nodin. Some would say I struggle enough with English!

marienbad · 03-08-2012 2:25am

IrishAm wrote: »

I can not speak Greek, Nodin. Some would say I struggle enough with English!

I don't think you need Greek or any language for that matter to translate the imagery.

Nodin · 03-08-2012 12:39pm

IrishAm wrote: »

I can not speak Greek, Nodin. Some would say I struggle enough with English!

.....the whole raised right arm in the picture/parades/oddly familiar logo don't speak to you then? They don't give a certain impression?

RandomName2 · 03-08-2012 2:13pm

Yeh, so they're fascist (sorry OP) what's the big deal?

There's a Communist Party in Greece too. Hammers and Sickles up to the hilt. Don't see any broo-ha-ha about that.

There was a fascist government in Greece back in the 30s (and I mean a Greek government, not a puppet government of the Nazis). No big deal. It was totalitarian, non-democratic, isolationist and xenophobic, but non-belligerent and non-genocidal. Incidentally it was attacked by another fascist power (Italy).

The Corinthian · 04-08-2012 11:52pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

Yeh, so they're fascist (sorry OP) what's the big deal?

There's a Communist Party in Greece too. Hammers and Sickles up to the hilt. Don't see any broo-ha-ha about that.

I'd tend to agree here. Simply saying something is bad because it is 'Fascist' is a bit lazy to say the least, especially when the same is not said of 'Communists' who actually managed to exterminate more people than the Nazis ever did - who were incidentally the only 'Fascists' to carry out such systematic slaughter on such a scale.

If they're bad it's because they're extremists with little or no idea how to govern, should they ever get into power, beyond a few policies to curb immigration and consider violent action to be a legitimate tool of political will. Extremists on the other side of the spectrum are actually exactly the same - just replace 'curb immigration' with 'nationalize' or 'collectivize'.

marienbad · 05-08-2012 3:08am

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'd tend to agree here. Simply saying something is bad because it is 'Fascist' is a bit lazy to say the least, especially when the same is not said of 'Communists' who actually managed to exterminate more people than the Nazis ever did - who were incidentally the only 'Fascists' to carry out such systematic slaughter on such a scale.

If they're bad it's because they're extremists with little or no idea how to govern, should they ever get into power, beyond a few policies to curb immigration and consider violent action to be a legitimate tool of political will. Extremists on the other side of the spectrum are actually exactly the same - just replace 'curb immigration' with 'nationalize' or 'collectivize'.

I don't know Corinthian as I think most people in a general sense include communists (Stalin Stasi Hoxha Securitate etc) under the label of fascist.

Not strictly correct but not a leftie bias either I don't think - but I could be wrong.

The Corinthian · 05-08-2012 9:47am

marienbad wrote: »

I don't know Corinthian as I think most people in a general sense include communists (Stalin Stasi Hoxha Securitate etc) under the label of fascist.

Not strictly correct but not a leftie bias either I don't think - but I could be wrong.

You are wrong, I'm afraid. Fascist in that manner is simply a lazy, badly educated shorthand for 'authoritarian' or 'police state'.

It became a taboo ideology as a result of German Fascism's genocidal policies - and that they lost the war - and subsequently the term has been dumbed down so that it is considered 'evil' in a general sense, without even understanding what it is.

Political extremists - be the basis of their beliefs Fascist, Communist or even Theist - are all to be avoided. The danger of using simplistic labels is that it obfuscates why they should be avoided and thus allows the legitimization of extremists who can argue that they are not technically 'Fascist'.

For example, the World is full of extreme political movements that have paramilitary wings. We don't even notice them - unless they're silly enough to salute with a raised right arm - then suddenly they're the bad guys, even though it's the fact that they're a paramilitary movement that should be setting off those warning bells in the first place, not their salute.

marienbad · 05-08-2012 3:09pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

You are wrong, I'm afraid. Fascist in that manner is simply a lazy, badly educated shorthand for 'authoritarian' or 'police state'.

It became a taboo ideology as a result of German Fascism's genocidal policies - and that they lost the war - and subsequently the term has been dumbed down so that it is considered 'evil' in a general sense, without even understanding what it is.

Political extremists - be the basis of their beliefs Fascist, Communist or even Theist - are all to be avoided. The danger of using simplistic labels is that it obfuscates why they should be avoided and thus allows the legitimization of extremists who can argue that they are not technically 'Fascist'.

For example, the World is full of extreme political movements that have paramilitary wings. We don't even notice them - unless they're silly enough to salute with a raised right arm - then suddenly they're the bad guys, even though it's the fact that they're a paramilitary movement that should be setting off those warning bells in the first place, not their salute.

As I said Corinthian I think people just use it as shorthand for all of the above but do understand the difference , but I could be wrong

The Corinthian · 05-08-2012 3:48pm

marienbad wrote: »

As I said Corinthian I think people just use it as shorthand for all of the above but do understand the difference , but I could be wrong

It is a shorthand, but a very lazy and inaccurate one.

marienbad · 05-08-2012 4:14pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

It is a shorthand, but a very lazy and inaccurate one.

True , but it is accurate in a funny kind of way , in the same way that calling someone 'a fat cow'' when they are neither fat or lazy or in many cases even a women , but we all get the drift

IrishAm · 17-09-2012 4:08am

The Golden Dawn are branching out. They already have a branch in Cyprus. By Christmas they will have one in Norway and Spain.

Eventually Ireland?

SocSocPol · 17-09-2012 8:15am

IrishAm wrote: »

The Golden Dawn are branching out. They already have a branch in Cyprus. By Christmas they will have one in Norway and Spain.

Eventually Ireland?

A Neo-Nazi party in Ireland, well I suppose it only takes one deluded moron to start a branch, but cant see it taking off in any serious way, not that we have any shortage of deluded hate filled racists in this country.

The Corinthian · 17-09-2012 8:32am

IrishAm wrote: »

The Golden Dawn are branching out. They already have a branch in Cyprus. By Christmas they will have one in Norway and Spain.

Eventually Ireland?

And eventually the World? I think we're getting a bit hysterical here.

(Southern) Cyprus may have a branch, but that's because it's ethnically Greek. Presuming that such a movement would have any luck spreading as far afield as Norway, especially in countries that have little or no history of successful home-grown Fascism, is a little fantastical at this stage.

JustinDee · 17-09-2012 8:45am

The Corinthian wrote: »

And eventually the World? I think we're getting a bit hysterical here.

(Southern) Cyprus may have a branch, but that's because it's ethnically Greek. Presuming that such a movement would have any luck spreading as far afield as Norway, especially in countries that have little or no history of successful home-grown Fascism, is a little fantastical at this stage.

Norway already have their own neo-nazi organisations and have done for some decades now. Never hear of Tore Tvedt? I lived there five years and there is a fairly well known organisation called Vigrid or Vigridskaper (can't remember spelling) knocking about, even winning votes in kommune elections. In short, deluded and most likely bored racists in need of identifying with something hence the sticking to populist movements expert in scapegoating.

The Corinthian · 17-09-2012 9:19am

JustinDee wrote: »

Norway already have their own neo-nazi organisations and have done for some decades now. Never hear of Tore Tvedt? I lived there five years and there is a fairly well known organisation called Vigrid or Vigridskaper (can't remember spelling) knocking about, even winning votes in kommune elections. In short, deluded and most likely bored racists in need of identifying with something hence the sticking to populist movements expert in scapegoating.

Every country in Europe has neo-Nazi and Stalinist groups. Reality though is that almost all of them have little or no political success beyond a few local and maybe one or two parliamentary elections.

What IrishAm did was cite the spreading of a Greek group, which happens to also be the only one in Europe to have any significant success, to having a presence in another ethnically Greek country, and then from that somehow extrapolate some sort of meteoric rise of Neo-Nazism throughout Europe.

And I say presence, because that's all it is at present; Fianna Fail could open a office in Nicosia too, but that would hardly mean that Dev's soldiers of destiny are taking over Europe (although they may get more votes there than back in Ireland at this stage).

And Golden Dawn would be very unlikely to seek to spread beyond the Hellenistic World (that's the thing with nationalism), leaving home grown Neo-Nazi groups to 'rise' of their own volition - if they can.

Of course, with increased economic instability and concerns over immigration, you are more than likely to see far-right and anti-immigration groups make gains, but it's a big jump from that to "by Christmas they will have one in Norway and Spain". That's just hysteria, TBH.

JustinDee · 17-09-2012 11:13am

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course, with increased economic instability and concerns over immigration, you are more than likely to see far-right and anti-immigration groups make gains, but it's a big jump from that to "by Christmas they will have one in Norway and Spain". That's just hysteria, TBH.

They do have one in Norway and they are well known. All it takes is one calamity involving someone from a scapegoated demograph and they find better support.
That's not hysteria, its a sequence of events that can be seen in many constituencies across the globe and over time.
It is in fact a big deal if a local far-right/neo-nazi group gains seats on a council.

The Corinthian · 17-09-2012 11:36am

JustinDee wrote: »

They do have one in Norway and they are well known. All it takes is one calamity involving someone from a scapegoated demograph and they find better support.
That's not hysteria, its a sequence of events that can be seen in many constituencies across the globe and over time.

Yes, it's hysteria. It's extrapolating a pan-European far-right resurgence based upon a single country and a presence in a second homoethnic country. With the exception of Greece, none of these Neo-Nazi parties are anywhere near getting into power, notwithstanding a few seats here and there. Repeatedly, the only way that extremist groups have managed to get into power in Europe has been by moving twoards the centre.

As for 'one calamity' to turn the tide, the irony is that in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik managed to do exactly that against the far right.

It is in fact a big deal if a local far-right/neo-nazi group gains seats on a council.

My experience is that it is a big deal for people on the other extreme who need the spectre of the far-right to justify their far-left existence.

JustinDee · 17-09-2012 12:21pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yes, it's hysteria. It's extrapolating a pan-European far-right resurgence based upon a single country and a presence in a second homoethnic country. With the exception of Greece, none of these Neo-Nazi parties are anywhere near getting into power, notwithstanding a few seats here and there. Repeatedly, the only way that extremist groups have managed to get into power in Europe has been by moving twoards the centre

I guess you would have to live in or even visit a constituency that exemplifies what I'm pointing out. It seems that the only threat in your eyes is if said nutjob party threatens a position in parliament. In your book, anything below this level of politics is moot and just fluff.

The Corinthian wrote: »

As for 'one calamity' to turn the tide, the irony is that in Norway, Anders Behring Breivik managed to do exactly that against the far right

Thats not ironic. It is proving my point and what I was posting about.

The Corinthian wrote: »

My experience is that it is a big deal for people on the other extreme who need the spectre of the far-right to justify their far-left existence.

Or anyone genuinely concerned in their local community being infiltrated by the extreme-right and are not aligned to any pigeon-holed side within the political spectrum.

The Corinthian · 17-09-2012 1:21pm

JustinDee wrote: »

I guess you would have to live in or even visit a constituency that exemplifies what I'm pointing out.

I have. Have you?

JustinDee · 17-09-2012 2:08pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

I have. Have you?

Yes, amongst other places, I lived for five years in the same area as the vandalised Jewish gravesites in Oslo (beside Grünerløkka). Not far from Sinsen where a Tore Tvedt gathering caused uproar and got out of hand. Also lived just over an hour south of Brisbane for seven years in Australia during the Paulie Hanson short-lived ascendancy. In hindsight of course, all just a comet tail. At the time however, it was a different story.

According to you though, nothing to worry about if characters like this come to the fore.

Nodin · 17-09-2012 2:17pm

SocSocPol wrote: »

A Neo-Nazi party in Ireland, well I suppose it only takes one deluded moron to start a branch, but cant see it taking off in any serious way, not that we have any shortage of deluded hate filled racists in this country.

No party with an anti-immigrant platform has retained its deposit, or had as much as a county councillor elected.

The Corinthian · 17-09-2012 2:25pm

JustinDee wrote: »

According to you though, nothing to worry about if characters like this come to the fore.

Nope. Plenty to worry about if characters like this come to the fore, just realistically they're not without seriously watering down their policies - otherwise they just don't come to the fore, they simply get some limited influence in some local area.

If you disagree, feel free to give an example of where/when.

IrishAm · 17-09-2012 4:00pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

.

What IrishAm did was cite the spreading of a Greek group, which happens to also be the only one in Europe to have any significant success, to having a presence in another ethnically Greek country, and then from that somehow extrapolate some sort of meteoric rise of Neo-Nazism throughout Europe.

.
And Golden Dawn would be very unlikely to seek to spread beyond the Hellenistic World (that's the thing with nationalism), leaving home grown Neo-Nazi groups to 'rise' of their own volition - if they can.

Of course, with increased economic instability and concerns over immigration, you are more than likely to see far-right and anti-immigration groups make gains, but it's a big jump from that to "by Christmas they will have one in Norway and Spain". That's just hysteria, TBH.

http://www.diarioelaguijon.com/noticia/4940/LOS-AGUIJONAZOS/El-lider-del-partido-nazi-Amanecer-Dorado-fundara-una-filial-en-Espana-en-noviembre.html

IrishAm · 17-09-2012 4:06pm

Its not hysteria, The Corinthian. Its fact. They are setting up a branch in Spain and Norway before Christmas. See the article above. I cant speak Norwegian so cant find an article regarding them branching out there, but trust me, its true.

IrishAm · 17-09-2012 4:08pm

Nodin wrote: »

No party with an anti-immigrant platform has retained its deposit, or had as much as a county councillor elected.

I remember a lad in Dublin central running on an immigration control platform, but am unaware of anyone else doing similar. Has anyone else?

JustinDee · 17-09-2012 4:09pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Nope. Plenty to worry about if characters like this come to the fore, just realistically they're not without seriously watering down their policies - otherwise they just don't come to the fore, they simply get some limited influence in some local area

That is by-the-by. Coalitions and populism capitalising on any events can propel anyone into a seat.

A policy is nothing more than a swat for the government or noise to divert the opposition (apologies to Jonathan Lynn and Anthony Jay).

Nodin · 17-09-2012 4:14pm

IrishAm wrote: »

I remember a lad in Dublin central running on an immigration control platform, but am unaware of anyone else doing similar. Has anyone else?

Some shower in Cork,I think.

The Corinthian · 17-09-2012 4:32pm

IrishAm wrote: »

http://www.diarioelaguijon.com/noticia/4940/LOS-AGUIJONAZOS/El-lider-del-partido-nazi-Amanecer-Dorado-fundara-una-filial-en-Espana-en-noviembre.html

That's not what I asked examples of. Also, even as a non sequitur your link makes little sense. I already pointed out that opening an office somewhere hardly means you're on your way to taking over the country.

IrishAm wrote: »

Its not hysteria, The Corinthian. Its fact. They are setting up a branch in Spain and Norway before Christmas. See the article above. I cant speak Norwegian so cant find an article regarding them branching out there, but trust me, its true.

And again, please see my above comment regarding Fianna Fail doing the same. Anyone can open a 'branch' - that does not mean it'll get anywhere. So no, it's not a 'fact'.

JustinDee wrote: »

That is by-the-by. Coalitions and populism capitalising on any events can propel anyone into a seat.

No, it's not 'by-the-by'; it's what happens. Either centrist parties adopt some of the policies and thus steal the thunder of the extremists, or the extremists evolve, drop their more distasteful policies and members and become centrists themselves, if they're looking to get anywhere.

All these conspiracy theories about Golden Dawn taking over Europe are simply ridiculous.

IrishAm · 17-09-2012 4:41pm

Read my post again. I simply stated that the Golden Dawn were branching out. Nothing else. I never mentioned them taking over Europe.

JustinDee · 17-09-2012 4:54pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

No, it's not 'by-the-by'; it's what happens. Either centrist parties adopt some of the policies and thus steal the thunder of the extremists, or the extremists evolve, drop their more distasteful policies and members and become centrists themselves, if they're looking to get anywhere

It is "by-the-by". You are claiming that for a far right-wing party to get anywhere they have to change. I happen to like my local council free of this kind of thinker. If this was to become a different circumstance, then thats a worry, regardless of their "watering down" policies or not.

The Corinthian wrote: »

All these conspiracy theories about Golden Dawn taking over Europe are simply ridiculous.

Nobody bloody well said they were "taking over Europe" so you can ease off there, fella.

The Corinthian · 17-09-2012 5:30pm

IrishAm wrote: »

Read my post again. I simply stated that the Golden Dawn were branching out. Nothing else. I never mentioned them taking over Europe.

Actually, you didn't simply say they were branching out but that they were apparently 'branching out' to every corner of Europe:

IrishAm wrote: »

The Golden Dawn are branching out. They already have a branch in Cyprus. By Christmas they will have one in Norway and Spain.

Eventually Ireland?

When I challenged that this was hardly a sign that such groups were poised to come to power in Europe, instead of saying (as you are now claiming) that this is not what you meant, you instead went on the offensive and argued that this is precisely what they are doing.

So, TBH, you've kind of changed you're tune here.

JustinDee wrote: »

It is "by-the-by". You are claiming that for a far right-wing party to get anywhere they have to change.

Indeed, the Movimento Sociale Italiano is a good example of this.

I happen to like my local council free of this kind of thinker. If this was to become a different circumstance, then thats a worry, regardless of their "watering down" policies or not.

Well if they 'water down' their policies and end up representing non-extremist politics, then I have no problem with them or their origins, any more than I would with Social Democrats would would have been Marxists only a few decades ago.

You might, but that's not how democracy works thankfully.

Brussels Sprout · 21-09-2012 11:14pm

IrishAm wrote: »

I remember a lad in Dublin central running on an immigration control platform, but am unaware of anyone else doing similar. Has anyone else?

Ted Neville has run in Cork South Central the last 3 general elections. He peaked in 2007 with 804 first preferences.

IrishAm · 22-09-2012 8:24am

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Ted Neville has run in Cork South Central the last 3 general elections. He peaked in 2007 with 804 first preferences.

As a European white nationalist, I hold no truck with him.

Anyway, the Golden Dawn are at 22% in Greek opinion polls.

Hellas yeah!

Golden Dawn attribute their rise in popularity to their words and their actions that speak to Greeks: their opposition to the rising tide of illegal immigration: and disillusionment with the main political parties that lied to win votes.
Greece’s political barometer for September has revealed that 54 percent of Greeks do not trust any political party. The measure of the popularity of political parties has shown a dramatic swing in the favor of Golden Dawn (Chrysi Avgi).

Macha · 22-09-2012 9:42pm

To take the nazi comparison down a different route, it's interesting that Keynes predicted disaster for Germany but also all of Europe if strict economic conditions were imposed externally on Germany through the Treaty of Versailles. And he was proven right.

Today, harsh (albeit necessary according to many) economic measures are being implemented, or perhaps more importantly, seen to be imposed by the EU on Greece. As a result we see far-right, nationalistic and xenophobic elements like Golden Dawn gaining support.

I suppose the argument then would be that the economic plan for Greece aims to stabilise the economic situation. Part of the French aims, at least, were to strip Germany of some very important economic and military assets. But it could be the population's perceptions of such intentions, as well as living with high unemployment and reduced social welfare spending that allow these type of parties to proposer.

Maybe we don't see a similar party in Spain because the memory of Franco is so fresh.

The Corinthian · 23-09-2012 11:00am

Naturally we're going to see increased support for extremist parties - be they far left or far right - during periods of hardship, as people will seek solutions that centrist parties seem incapable of delivering.

Far right nationalist groups, such as Golden Dawn, are unlikely to spread though, even if they do open offices elsewhere. At the end of the day, they're foreigners in those countries, and if there's one thing I've noticed about racialist groups is they hate each other almost as much as they hate everyone else.

23-09-2012 3:53pm

Macha wrote: »

To take the nazi comparison down a different route, it's interesting that Keynes predicted disaster for Germany but also all of Europe if strict economic conditions were imposed externally on Germany through the Treaty of Versailles. And he was proven right.

Today, harsh (albeit necessary according to many) economic measures are being implemented, or perhaps more importantly, seen to be imposed by the EU on Greece. As a result we see far-right, nationalistic and xenophobic elements like Golden Dawn gaining support.

I suppose the argument then would be that the economic plan for Greece aims to stabilise the economic situation. Part of the French aims, at least, were to strip Germany of some very important economic and military assets. But it could be the population's perceptions of such intentions, as well as living with high unemployment and reduced social welfare spending that allow these type of parties to proposer.

Maybe we don't see a similar party in Spain because the memory of Franco is so fresh.

Germany during the Great Depression and Greece during the Great Recession are almost completely incomparable - firstly because a few million of them haven't just sacrificed themselves in vain, secondly, because of the stabilization factor of the common currency.

They aren't paying 7 billion Greco-Dollars for a loaf of bread, for example.

Macha · 23-09-2012 6:53pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Naturally we're going to see increased support for extremist parties - be they far left or far right - during periods of hardship, as people will seek solutions that centrist parties seem incapable of delivering.

Why do you think that is? Because centrist parties don't go for a bold plan, be it austerity or stimulus package?

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Germany during the Great Depression and Greece during the Great Recession are almost completely incomparable - firstly because a few million of them haven't just sacrificed themselves in vain, secondly, because of the stabilization factor of the common currency.

They aren't paying 7 billion Greco-Dollars for a loaf of bread, for example.

No, they aren't the same. But I think the principle of perceiving an external force as causing "unfair" economic hardship is common to both. I don't really know what life is like in Greece but I know it is a lot poorer than Ireland. Unemployment is 10 percentage points higher and there are lot of public and private employees who are owed months of wages.

The Corinthian · 24-09-2012 9:53am

Macha wrote: »

Why do you think that is?

Because populations will often gravitate twoards 'quick fix' solutions and any message that exonerates themselves of blame and puts it on another.

And the longer and deeper the strife a population has to endure, the more desperate that population will be to find a solution, no matter how irrational and ultimately futile it may be.

Because centrist parties don't go for a bold plan, be it austerity or stimulus package?

Centrist parties tend not to go for 'bold' plans, because such plans are typically risky or will cause more harm than good in the long run, while extremists will always do so because they are revolutionary, which is their nature.

Border-Rat · 24-09-2012 1:05pm

Centrist parties are almost exclusively plutocratic/kleptocratic. Its not that they don't resolve the problem, they are the problem. People cannot vote them out. Eventually people will recognise the root cause.

The Corinthian · 24-09-2012 1:11pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because populations will often gravitate twoards 'quick fix' solutions and any message that exonerates themselves of blame and puts it on another.

Border-Rat wrote: »

Centrist parties are almost exclusively plutocratic/kleptocratic. Its not that they don't resolve the problem, they are the problem. People cannot vote them out. Eventually people will recognise the root cause.

QED.

SeanW · 24-09-2012 7:31pm

Border rat actually has a point: the centrist parties are usually not working in the best interests of the people. Fianna Fail made the people pay for the developers and the bankers gambling, FG isn't doing a whole lot to stand up to the bankers/developer/Eurocrats that caused the problem.

In the U.S. both of the two main political parties are both in hock to well funded special interest lobbies and much American legislation reflects this.

In Greece, both of the main political parties, PASOK and ND chose to buy elections with borrowed money and profligate spending.

----

So when it all goes spectacularly wrong, as it has in Greece, it paves the way for extremists because it's clear that the centrists have failed, and the people get angry and want *someone* to do *something*.

Whatever their many faults may be, it is certainly the case that an extremist party fits the above bill. If GD is rising in the polls, that will be why.

IrishAm · 21-10-2012 11:33am

Coppers referring those on the end of crimes committed by immigrants to the Golden Dawn.

Lefties getting badly beaten by the cops(Golden Dawn followers).

Not really cool.

SeanW · 21-10-2012 11:52am

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

because of the stabilization factor of the common currency.

Ha ha ha ha

... oh wait, you're actually serious. :eek:

I'm not a big fan of Keynesian economics, but in this case given the degree to which the Greek economy has collapsed suggests that they need repudiate debts they can't pay and devalue their currency to make their exports cheaper and imports more expensive, so that they might have a fighting chance at recovery. As it stands more than 50% of their youth is unemployed and their economy is receeding by better than 5% a year since their collapse began, with no end in sight. Unless someone does *something* over there, they are going to be destroyed.

A Golden Dawn in Greece

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