A Golden Dawn in Greece

fianna saor · 18-05-2012 6:42pm

marienbad wrote: »

Well the Irish worker could prevent that job being ''snached'' from him by by accepting the market rate , could he/she not ?

You are aware by the way that even in the height of the boom there was unemployment and these immigrants were required for the jobs that we saw as beneath us , and for lots of those jobs we still do .

What are those ''fair proportion of problems'' caused by immigrants ?

wasnt that the point i was making, they are reducing the rate. for example if a tradesman was making say 20 euro per hour just say, some of these guys are coming in and doing the job for maybe half that.

of course im aware there was unemployment, and there probably always will be to some extent at least, but they are not required to do jobs we saw as beneath us. without going into it too much i have posted in another thread about social welfare, that it should be reduced gradually to get people back working. therefore those jobs would be filled.

The Corinthian wrote: »

That sounds like a very foreign idea...

You are correct to a great extent, however you ignore the benefits of an increased population also.

With greater population, you get greater demand; accommodation, food, entertainment, financial services, basic services and so on. Greater demand translates to higher GDP and overall employment, not to mention related tax revenues.

No one would deny that the outflow of foreign workers since the spectacular collapse of the Celtic Tiger has resulted in very visible demand shortfalls in the rental market, for example.

My understanding is that Ireland's economic woes are as a result of a combination of both the ongoing financial crisis, that began in 2008, and the collapse of the housing bubble.
So overall, I understand where you're coming from and I would agree that the system has likely been too lenient where it comes to some of the abuses in the asylum system. However, you've not really made a convincing case against immigration overall, based upon the facts.

ok firstly the 'foreign idea' part yes it probably is, i have absolutely nothing against foreign ideas in fact id be all for them. im often amazed why our government doesnt have a look at other countries in how they run things. in other words take the best parts and put them into our own so to speak.

you speak of the increase in population, isnt the foreign workers coming over just balancing out the irish ones that are forced to leave.

marienbad · 18-05-2012 6:53pm

fianna saor wrote: »

wasnt that the point i was making, they are reducing the rate. for example if a tradesman was making say 20 euro per hour just say, some of these guys are coming in and doing the job for maybe half that.

of course im aware there was unemployment, and there probably always will be to some extent at least, but they are not required to do jobs we saw as beneath us. without going into it too much i have posted in another thread about social welfare, that it should be reduced gradually to get people back working. therefore those jobs would be filled.

ok firstly the 'foreign idea' part yes it probably is, i have absolutely nothing against foreign ideas in fact id be all for them. im often amazed why our government doesnt have a look at other countries in how they run things. in other words take the best parts and put them into our own so to speak.

you speak of the increase in population, isnt the foreign workers coming over just balancing out the irish ones that are forced to leave.

No it was'nt the point you were making, the market rate is the rate the market says it is , not the rate decided by any protectionist group .

And as for the foreign workers coming over, they came simply because there was a shortage of labour , Irish ex pats were returning home also . There were more than enough jobs to go round .

I don't know what you mean by saying they were not ''required'' to do jobs we saw as beneath us ? the foreigners had no such qualms - we had, I don't know what is your pronlem when people take up jobs we did'nt want - someone had to do them.

The Corinthian · 18-05-2012 7:16pm

fianna saor wrote: »

you speak of the increase in population, isnt the foreign workers coming over just balancing out the irish ones that are forced to leave.

Yes, but you've not at all demonstrated that they have anything to do with the Irish ones who are 'forced to leave'. On that basis, whether they are offsetting those who do leave or not, does not change their contribution to aggregate demand.

Consider the construction boom a few years ago. Much of it was designed to deal with the increase in population due to immigration. So on one side immigrant workers were coming over and undercutting Irish workers for construction jobs, but on the other hand, without that extra demand they introduced, there would be no construction job in the first place.

You're currently looking only at part of the equation - you need to consider both sides before arriving at any conclusions. Do the math.

darkman2 · 18-05-2012 7:39pm

Here they are in Parliament, not an image many Germans will appreciate

149328_385180524868078_100001284008351_1122198_338396586_n.jpg

Bearded guy should have become caretaker PM

fianna saor · 18-05-2012 8:11pm

marienbad wrote: »

No it was'nt the point you were making, the market rate is the rate the market says it is , not the rate decided by any protectionist group .

And as for the foreign workers coming over, they came simply because there was a shortage of labour , Irish ex pats were returning home also . There were more than enough jobs to go round .

I don't know what you mean by saying they were not ''required'' to do jobs we saw as beneath us ? the foreigners had no such qualms - we had, I don't know what is your pronlem when people take up jobs we did'nt want - someone had to do them.

shortage of labour? heres the part where i turn on my own a little bit we both agreed there was unemployment at the time, and im sure you'll agree not all social welfare recipients were legally entitled to claim it at the time (and to date as it happens). if the government had of acted instead of reacted they could have had a large proportion of the dole recipients who were either lazy or social scroungers or both filling those jobs.

charlemont · 18-05-2012 8:21pm

A nasty bunch of people, Greece will be far worse off if these guys get in, they won't be able to prevent austerity and more than likely they will line their own pockets and put their cronies into positions of power/influence, Somehow I don't think Turkey will have them on their doorstep.

charlemont · 18-05-2012 8:26pm

fianna saor wrote: »

shortage of labour? heres the part where i turn on my own a little bit we both agreed there was unemployment at the time, and im sure you'll agree not all social welfare recipients were legally entitled to claim it at the time (and to date as it happens). if the government had of acted instead of reacted they could have had a large proportion of the dole recipients who were either lazy or social scroungers or both filling those jobs.

Off topic I know but what your saying is true, It was fashionable here to hire foreign workers (even in unskilled jobs) over Irish people who had no serious qualifications. So yet again we only have ourselves to blame.

fianna saor · 18-05-2012 8:31pm

fianna saor wrote: »

well i cant really speak for greece but i would attribute a fair proportion of our problems to immigrants. - not saying its all their fault btw we can fvck things up sometimes pretty well on our own too

Nodin wrote: »

Did immigrants run the banks, Government, builders and industry regulators?

you really should read the posts instead of picking and choosing what you want to see!

Nodin · 18-05-2012 8:49pm

fianna saor wrote: »

you really should read the posts instead of picking and choosing what you want to see!

well i cant really speak for greece but i would attribute a fair proportion of our problems to immigrants.

How can you attribute a "fair proportion" of the countries problems to immigrants?

fianna saor · 18-05-2012 8:51pm

Nodin wrote: »

How can you attribute a "fair proportion" of the countries problems to immigrants?

read some of my earlier posts

The Corinthian · 18-05-2012 8:52pm

charlemont wrote: »

A nasty bunch of people, Greece will be far worse off if these guys get in, they won't be able to prevent austerity and more than likely they will line their own pockets and put their cronies into positions of power/influence, Somehow I don't think Turkey will have them on their doorstep.

As things stand they won't get in. Their present surge of popularity is largely because those who have voted for them have done so on the back of their social work (bringing food to the poor, etc), but are largely ignorant about who they are beyond that - we had the a similar situation with Veritas, where people were swayed by their rhetoric and only began to ask questions after. As a result, they are actually expected to lose a few seats in the re-election.

However, the re-election will also likely see an increase in the SYRIZA vote and it is quite likely that they will come to power. SYRIZA is in reality a coalition of far-left, fringe, parties and other than the difficulty of finding common ground between them, the one area that they will have common ground is to reject the austerity agreement.

When that happens, unless some face-saving compromise is made, the ECB will pull the plug on future loans and Greece will inevitably default. De facto expulsion (it may be described as more of a suspension) from the Euro will follow, which will result in a return to the Drachma or will continue using the Euro, like non-Euro states like Montenegro do. With this, you can expect a run on Greek deposits, banks collapsing, Greek credit freezing up completely and both foreign trade and tourism drying up.

As the situation worsens, I doubt SYRIZA will be able to handle it. They have no experience in government, ideologically are aligned to outdated socialist macroeconomic theories and importantly are not a single political entity. As I said they're a coalition, namely of:

Active Citizens (Ενεργοί Πολίτες): democratic socialism, patriotism
Anticapitalist Political Group (ΑΠΟ): communism, trotskyism
Communist Organization of Greece (KOE): maoism, communism
Democratic Social Movement (DIKKI): nationalist socialism, euroscepticism
Ecosocialists of Greece: eco-socialism, left ecology
Internationalist Workers' Left (DEA): revolutionary socialism, communism, trotskyism
Movement for the United in Action Left (KEDA): communism
Radical Left Group Roza
Radicals (Ριζοσπάστες): democratic socialism, patriotism
Red (Κόκκινο): communism, trotskyism
Renewing Communist Ecological Left (AKOA): democratic socialism, eurocommunism, green
Synaspismos (SYN): democratic socialism, eco-socialism, eurocommunism, ecologism, feminism
Unitary Movement: democratic socialism, social democracy
And several independent leftist activists

So disagreement and blaimstorming are likely to follow.

This is where Golden Dawn steps in. Either the SYRIZA government falls apart leading to a Golden Dawn in a coalition or another election could see their share of the vote increase substantially, to the point that they can form a government.

Alternatively, with increased chaos combined with the sympathies they have in Greek law enforcement (and potentially military) a coup is entirely feasible.

Of course this may not happen and is largely dependant on how SYRIZA and the EU handle things in the first month following their coming to power. Given this, I wouldn't have much confidence in SYRIZA's ability to keep things from spinning out of control.

The Corinthian · 18-05-2012 8:54pm

fianna saor wrote: »

read the thread!

Yes and with respects I did point out that your reasoning was very flawed when coming to this conclusion. Would you like to address my rebuttal?

fianna saor · 18-05-2012 8:59pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Active Citizens (Ενεργοί Πολίτες): democratic socialism, patriotism

Anticapitalist Political Group (ΑΠΟ): communism, trotskyism

Communist Organization of Greece (KOE): maoism, communism

Democratic Social Movement (DIKKI): nationalist socialism, euroscepticism

Ecosocialists of Greece: eco-socialism, left ecology

Internationalist Workers' Left (DEA): revolutionary socialism, communism, trotskyism

Movement for the United in Action Left (KEDA): communism

Radical Left Group Roza

Radicals (Ριζοσπάστες): democratic socialism, patriotism

Red (Κόκκινο): communism, trotskyism

Renewing Communist Ecological Left (AKOA): democratic socialism, eurocommunism, green

Synaspismos (SYN): democratic socialism, eco-socialism, eurocommunism, ecologism, feminism

Unitary Movement: democratic socialism, social democracy

And several independent leftist activists

So disagreement and blaimstorming are likely to follow.
.

was greek one of those languages you mentioned;)

Nodin · 18-05-2012 9:03pm

fianna saor wrote: »

read some of my earlier posts

I did. No explanation of our current woes are evident.

Again, how would you "attribute a fair proportion of our problems to immigrants".

fianna saor · 18-05-2012 9:10pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yes, but you've not at all demonstrated that they have anything to do with the Irish ones who are 'forced to leave'. On that basis, whether they are offsetting those who do leave or not, does not change their contribution to aggregate demand.

Consider the construction boom a few years ago. Much of it was designed to deal with the increase in population due to immigration. So on one side immigrant workers were coming over and undercutting Irish workers for construction jobs, but on the other hand, without that extra demand they introduced, there would be no construction job in the first place.

You're currently looking only at part of the equation - you need to consider both sides before arriving at any conclusions. Do the math.

i have had personal friends electricians etc. who have left for australia. they have worked here for years, but before they left some of them were let go from companies who then rehired guys from latvia i think it was to do the work at a rate not sustainable for the guys who left. if they were not up to scratch and were let go fair enough, if they did something wrong and were let go fair enough, if they were replaced by another worker for no apparent reason but on a similar rate strange but fair enough, but they replaced by foreign workers on a much lower rate who probably wouldnt have got the job otherwise. that is an example of how i would 'demonstrate that they have something to do with the irish ones who were forced to leave'

The Corinthian · 18-05-2012 9:20pm

fianna saor wrote: »

was greek one of those languages you mentioned;)

Only a smattering of the classical variety.

Benny_Cake · 18-05-2012 9:21pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

[SIZE="5"]However[/SIZE], the re-election will also likely see an increase in the SYRIZA vote and it is quite likely that they will come to power. SYRIZA is in reality a coalition of far-left, fringe, parties and other than the difficulty of finding common ground between them, the one area that they will have common ground is to reject the austerity agreement.

When that happens, unless some face-saving compromise is made, the ECB will pull the plug on future loans and Greece will inevitably default. De facto expulsion (it may be described as more of a suspension) from the Euro will follow, which will result in a return to the Drachma or will continue using the Euro, like non-Euro states like Montenegro do. With this, you can expect a run on Greek deposits, banks collapsing, Greek credit freezing up completely and both foreign trade and tourism drying up.

As the situation worsens, I doubt SYRIZA will be able to handle it. They have no experience in government, ideologically are aligned to outdated socialist macroeconomic theories and importantly are not a single political entity. As I said they're a coalition, namely of:
Active Citizens (Ενεργοί Πολίτες): democratic socialism, patriotism

Anticapitalist Political Group (ΑΠΟ): communism, trotskyism

Communist Organization of Greece (KOE): maoism, communism

Democratic Social Movement (DIKKI): nationalist socialism, euroscepticism

Ecosocialists of Greece: eco-socialism, left ecology

Internationalist Workers' Left (DEA): revolutionary socialism, communism, trotskyism

Movement for the United in Action Left (KEDA): communism

Radical Left Group Roza

Radicals (Ριζοσπάστες): democratic socialism, patriotism

Red (Κόκκινο): communism, trotskyism

Renewing Communist Ecological Left (AKOA): democratic socialism, eurocommunism, green

Synaspismos (SYN): democratic socialism, eco-socialism, eurocommunism, ecologism, feminism

Unitary Movement: democratic socialism, social democracy

And several independent leftist activists

So disagreement and blaimstorming are likely to follow.

This is where Golden Dawn steps in. Either the SYRIZA government falls apart leading to a Golden Dawn in a coalition or another election could see their share of the vote increase substantially, to the point that they can form a government.

Alternatively, with increased chaos combined with the sympathies they have in Greek law enforcement (and potentially military) a coup is entirely feasible.

Of course this may not happen and is largely dependant on how SYRIZA and the EU handle things in the first month following their coming to power. Given this, I wouldn't have much confidence in SYRIZA's ability to keep things from spinning out of control.

Apparently Syriza are taking steps to format a united party in time for the next election, although they will allow the above groups to continue as factions within the party. By far the largest of the above groups is Synaspismos (which was formed out of the euro-Communist wing of the Communist Party). It is unlikely that any of the other parties would get into parliament on their own.

I do think that the bailout won't work, and in this it seems that Tsipras is correct. However I think he is being disingenuous if he thinks that Greece can also continue in the euro.

The Corinthian · 18-05-2012 10:21pm

fianna saor wrote: »

i have had personal friends electricians etc. who have left for australia. they have worked here for years, but before they left some of them were let go from companies who then rehired guys from latvia i think it was to do the work at a rate not sustainable for the guys who left. if they were not up to scratch and were let go fair enough, if they did something wrong and were let go fair enough, if they were replaced by another worker for no apparent reason but on a similar rate strange but fair enough, but they replaced by foreign workers on a much lower rate who probably wouldnt have got the job otherwise. that is an example of how i would 'demonstrate that they have something to do with the irish ones who were forced to leave'

In fairness unskilled and semi-skilled labour typically does suffer disproportionately from immigration compared to more white-collar roles. Given this, it was not so much that these workers were foreign that allowed them to undercut Irish workers, but that they were younger and this is an issue that affects a lot of industries, because younger workers are a lot cheaper, regardless of citizenship.

Nonetheless, you've yet to respond to my rebuttal; you've looked at immigration's negative influences, but have not considered the positive influences to the economy. Your personal friends may have been let go in favour of cheaper labour, but without the increase in population they would have been let go because there wouldn't have been enough work, for example.

Address that.

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Apparently Syriza are taking steps to format a united party in time for the next election, although they will allow the above groups to continue as factions within the party. By far the largest of the above groups is Synaspismos (which was formed out of the euro-Communist wing of the Communist Party). It is unlikely that any of the other parties would get into parliament on their own.

But they will be in the parliament and SYRIZA will have to rely upon them to some extent (TBD). Even without infighting with other parties Synaspismos would likely infight anyway because it doesn't have a unified ideological position either - all before you consider how well they will fare, with their lack of experience and dated economics, against the chaos of leaving the Euro is likely to engender.

Honestly, I don't think that even the experienced, mainstream, parties would be able to manage that scenario, which is why they're backing the austerity programme.

I do think that the bailout won't work, and in this it seems that Tsipras is correct. However I think he is being disingenuous if he thinks that Greece can also continue in the euro.

I actually think Greece could remain in the Euro as long as it holds the course long enough for the crisis to pass, at which point the EU would likely loosen the conditions for any bailout. Remember, it was beginning to pay dividends recently, with Greece's debt rating even improving slightly.

fianna saor · 18-05-2012 10:29pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

In fairness unskilled and semi-skilled labour typically does suffer disproportionately from immigration compared to more white-collar roles. Given this, it was not so much that these workers were foreign that allowed them to undercut Irish workers, but that they were younger and this is an issue that affects a lot of industries, because younger workers are a lot cheaper, regardless of citizenship.

Nonetheless, you've yet to respond to my rebuttal; you've looked at immigration's negative influences, but have not considered the positive influences to the economy. Your personal friends may have been let go in favour of cheaper labour, but without the increase in population they would have been let go because there wouldn't have been enough work, for example.

Address that.

age wasnt really a factor because they were replaced with both younger and older.

as regards the increase in population, its like i mentioned earlier didnt it more or less balance itself out with immigrants that came in and the irish who left?

The Corinthian · 18-05-2012 11:23pm

fianna saor wrote: »

age wasnt really a factor because they were replaced with both younger and older.

I'll have to take your word for it, but ultimately it makes little sense. If they are living in Ireland and are in the same circumstances as an Irish worker of the same age, family status, etc, how were they able to afford such low rates? And if they could afford them and compete, why could Irish workers not do so too?

as regards the increase in population, its like i mentioned earlier didnt it more or less balance itself out with immigrants that came in and the irish who left?

Sorry, but that makes no logical sense and presumes a zero net gain in population that has certainly not been the case in the last 20 years.

Even if what you say were true, all such immigrants would have done is replace both supply and demand abandoned by Irish emigrants.

fianna saor · 19-05-2012 12:16am

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'll have to take your word for it, but ultimately it makes little sense. If they are living in Ireland and are in the same circumstances as an Irish worker of the same age, family status, etc, how were they able to afford such low rates? And if they could afford them and compete, why could Irish workers not do so too?

ok i know its a cliche and does not apply to them all but there are a lot of circumstances where a lot of them live together hence reducing the rent. the guys that i knew were living with a girlfriend/wife and some had kids.

Sorry, but that makes no logical sense and presumes a zero net gain in population that has certainly not been the case in the last 20 years.

Even if what you say were true, all such immigrants would have done is replace both supply and demand abandoned by Irish emigrants.

no but the population of most countries has grown in the last 20 years, that cant be put down to immigrants coming to all of them can it?

The Corinthian · 19-05-2012 10:02am

fianna saor wrote: »

ok i know its a cliche and does not apply to them all but there are a lot of circumstances where a lot of them live together hence reducing the rent. the guys that i knew were living with a girlfriend/wife and some had kids.

It's not so much a cliché as an unsubstantiated hypothesis. You're coming up with hypothetical explanations to back up your claims, but unfortunately you're not backing this up with any evidence whatsoever. Alternatively, one can hypothesise that a non-national will consume in a similar fashion to a national. My own experience in fact contradict yours in that non-national families were renting houses for their families and not sharing.

no but the population of most countries has grown in the last 20 years, that cant be put down to immigrants coming to all of them can it?

Of course the population of most countries has grown in the last 20 years, but not for the same reasons in each. In the case of Ireland, if the effect of immigration on the demographics was not so apparent we wouldn't even be having this discussion, so you're actually arguing against yourself now.

If you look at migratory patterns in Ireland since the 1980's it's pretty clear what has happened:

Emigration decreased, however it has been immigration that has especially increased overall - unless you want to suggest that 11% of our population was non-national back in the 1980's, which is patently untrue. Bottom line is that immigration has been the single biggest factor twoards our increased population.

All of which is before we look at your most damning claim that immigration is at the root of a large percentage of the social ills in Ireland, despite the fact that the cause of the largest economic problems in Ireland (the credit/Euro crisis and property bubble) have absolutely nothing to do with them.

You appear to be coming to false conclusions based upon superficial anecdotal evidence from one corner of the economy. This is whereby barely-skilled labour, principally in construction, has been displaced by cheaper foreign labour. And I call it that because compared to most other European nations there are few barriers to entry into many of these roles; minimal apprenticeships appear to be all that is required - if at all. And it shows in the quality of construction, because properties in Ireland are appallingly built when compared to much of Europe, and were so long before non-nationals began to displace the national workforce.

As with every industry, you need to remain competitive. Either you charge less or you offer more and frankly the bar in Ireland is so low in that regard that it wasn't difficult to offer a better deal.

But that aside, you still ignore the rest of the economy, not to mention the increase in consumption that these people brought to us; who do you think was going to live in those properties?

For what you're claiming to be true, you need to back it up with more than anecdotes. Otherwise it's just an opinion; and opinions, as the expression goes, are like assholes - everyone's got one.

the_syco · 22-05-2012 11:11am

fianna saor wrote: »

i think it was to do the work at a rate not sustainable for the guys who left

Ask your friends do they work for more or less than what the australians get? I'm guessing less...

fianna saor · 06-06-2012 1:58pm

the_syco wrote: »

Ask your friends do they work for more or less than what the australians get? I'm guessing less...

whats that got to do with ireland?

plasmaguy · 06-06-2012 7:51pm

Maybe if the Greeks paid their taxes when they had the chance, none of this would have happened.

Did they really think they could go on not paying their taxes forever and just keep borrowing money forever and there'd be no consequences?

It seems they did.

And everyone was to blame, Left Wing, Right Wing, Capitalists, Socialists, Labour Unions, Politicians, man on the street, the lot. This is what happens when an entire population almost, conspire not to fund the state properly. And after all that, they blame the IMF and Germans who come to save the state from implosion.

Unfortunately the reality is there is no alternative to an austerity program for the Greeks. In the medium term it will be tough and you will have the usual left and right wing populist parties who will try to make political gains, but in the long term there is no alternative. Greece is bankrupt, and pretty much an economically failed state, and the people seem to have no concept of the need to actually pay tax and then complain when their pensions and benefits are slashed and when that happens they blame everyone and anyone but themselves.

plasmaguy · 06-06-2012 7:55pm

I don't know if this is relevant or not and normally I don't take much heed of these things and am certainly not anti foreigners, but I went into a fast food restaurant the other day at lunch time and there was 9 or 10 staff behind the counter, and not a single one of them was an Irish person.

Surely these places pay a good wage and some Irish person on the dole would be only too glad of a job? With perhaps 400,000 Irish people on the job, surely some of them would take a job in a fast food restaurant?

Blowfish · 07-06-2012 10:20am

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

People in Greece are being fed up with their failed politicians that has lead the country to a collapse. Can Golden Dawn help clean up all the corruption?

According to the news i read half the police officers in Greece voted for Golden Dawn, therefore I think this party probably best represents Law & Order.
http://www.grreporter.info/en/one_every_two_police_officers_voted_golden_dawn/6853

I have great hopes for this party.

In hindsight, that seems a rather unfortunate turn of phrase, given that one of their spokesmen assaulted a member of an opposition party on live TV this morning.

Given that, I certainly can't see the booming support for Golden Dawn lasting too much longer.

fianna saor · 07-06-2012 2:23pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

I don't know if this is relevant or not and normally I don't take much heed of these things and am certainly not anti foreigners, but I went into a fast food restaurant the other day at lunch time and there was 9 or 10 staff behind the counter, and not a single one of them was an Irish person.

Surely these places pay a good wage and some Irish person on the dole would be only too glad of a job? With perhaps 400,000 Irish people on the job, surely some of them would take a job in a fast food restaurant?

there was a similar type of place newly opened near me, i know of several youngsters that applied for a job but to no avail, same scenario as the place you visited all foreign staffed.

I am pie · 07-06-2012 2:28pm

Blowfish wrote: »

In hindsight, that seems a rather unfortunate turn of phrase, given that one of their spokesmen assaulted a member of an opposition party on live TV this morning.

Given that, I certainly can't see the booming support for Golden Dawn lasting too much longer.

Threw a glass of water in one female opposition member's face, slapped female oppsition member in the face more than once and called them 'commies'

Sometimes when you give the fools enough limelight they expose themselves as the degenerate idiots they really are. Sooner or later the mask slips.

The Corinthian · 07-06-2012 2:37pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

Surely these places pay a good wage and some Irish person on the dole would be only too glad of a job? With perhaps 400,000 Irish people on the job, surely some of them would take a job in a fast food restaurant?

Actually the Dole pays a lot better than some of these places. I remember about ten years ago, learning that a hotel in Dublin city centre was paying it's foreign staff £1 per hour, so if the business is privately owned, I wouldn't be surprised if the conditions and pay are such that they don't want Irish people, as we are more likely to report them!

stefanovich · 08-06-2012 6:08pm

The Corinthian is doing a good job running rings around fianna saor, who in my opinion has a partially valid point.

The issue of the lower paid immigrants undercutting Irish workers is something that is a real issue but I think we also need to be balanced.

All countries are selfish. That's why we have borders, immigration law. That's why we don't give all our tax money away etc etc.

I work with a lot of foreign nationals and it would be difficult or impossible to replace them all with Irish workers as there is a lack of the required skills here. I think education is something which needs to be a priority here and I don't think anyone could disagree with me.

I enjoy working in this environment surrounded by people from other places. The people I work with bring nothing but positive things to this country.

There is a darker side to this however. Lower paid or underpaid workers from abroad are putting some people out of work, especially tradesmen or lower skilled workers.

I don't have graphs or powerpoint presentations to back this up but talking to friends and family members I have heard of more than one occasion where a contract was lost because they were priced out.

I have also worked in various restaurants as a student where the immigrant workers were living 8 to a house to save money. There is also a bit of an ongoing scam where they get student visas in order to work and never attend their college courses.

We need to allow those with the required skills or who are in danger in their home countries into Ireland. Those scamming the system need to be removed. Irish people should be put first, they are Irish after all.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 08-06-2012 6:11pm

how is living 8 to a house scamming the system?

golden lane · 08-06-2012 6:16pm

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

how is living 8 to a house scamming the system?

it is not scamming...it is undercutting....if you don't know that happens......well you are so unimformed...

stefanovich · 08-06-2012 6:24pm

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

how is living 8 to a house scamming the system?

I did not say that. Working full time on a student visa is. There is a lot of people doing this.

Young immigrants living 8 to a house because they are single and willing to work below the normal wage causes anger and sometimes the employer is breaking the law if it is below minimum wage.

I empathise with the anger this may cause.

sweeney1971 · 08-06-2012 6:26pm

Try living in England nowadays and the real Nazies are the PC Brigade. Your automatically branded a Racist if you are a Patriot. Foreigners have more rights than anyone. Top of the housing list, top of the health list, top of the school lists and top of the benefit list. There are no go area's in the UK if you are white, Christian and English and quite a number of Libaries in certain Muslim areas have removed the Bible off the shelves as not to offend.
Yes people are turning to the far right as these people are the only ones to have Nationals interest at heart.

Pedant · 08-06-2012 6:36pm

Invader_Zimmy wrote: »

These "thugs" as you call it are only protecting their homes against criminal elements in society. You still have the right to protect your home. For example there offices have been firebombed by leftist terrorists, off course they have to use violence to protect themselves.

Everyone should have the right to protect their home. However, it's utterly naive to suggest that that's all Golden Dawn are advocating. They're constantly intimidating and assaulting immigrants groups. If they got into office there'd be mass deportations and who knows what else. Golden Dawn have also attacked LGBT groups and said that once they're finished with immigrants that gay people will be next. They're also sympathetic to the like of Georgios Papadopoulos, the leader of the Greek military junta between 1967 and 1974 who was also a Nazi collaborator during WW2.

Corkfeen · 08-06-2012 6:51pm

sweeney1971 wrote: »

Try living in England nowadays and the real Nazies are the PC Brigade. Your automatically branded a Racist if you are a Patriot. Foreigners have more rights than anyone. Top of the housing list, top of the health list, top of the school lists and top of the benefit list. There are no go area's in the UK if you are white, Christian and English and quite a number of Libaries in certain Muslim areas have removed the Bible off the shelves as not to offend.
Yes people are turning to the far right as these people are the only ones to have Nationals interest at heart.

I take it that you're one of those people who supports the BNP? :pac: What exactly do you mean Patriot? It's not patriotic to want to remove all foreigners which is what I assume you mean. It's a very dangerous path to follow either the far right or far left. They don't have the 'Nationalist's' interests at heart, the parties merely play upon prejudices of society such as Islamophobia and racism. Removing bibles off library shelves sounds more like propaganda tbh.

This downtrodden nationalist rubbish is getting exceedingly disturbing. You are given the same rights as immigrants. It's called equality and unfortunately there will some who choose to attempt to make prejudices acceptable. And you'll find that many English citizens aren't white....

Nodin · 08-06-2012 7:01pm

sweeney1971 wrote: »

.............. quite a number of Libaries in certain Muslim areas have removed the Bible off the shelves as not to offend.
...........

You've a source for that..?

stefanovich · 08-06-2012 7:33pm

Nodin wrote: »

sweeney1971 wrote: »

.............. quite a number of Libaries in certain Muslim areas have removed the Bible off the shelves as not to offend.
...........

You've a source for that..?

I hate to link to the DM but this is close:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1148363/Libraries-Bible-shelf-sop-Muslims.html
Not removing just moving to the top shelf with the porn

Nodin · 08-06-2012 7:46pm

stefanovich wrote: »

I hate to link to the DM but this is close:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1148363/Libraries-Bible-shelf-sop-Muslims.html
Not removing just moving to the top shelf with the porn

....and the Koran, where all will doubtless get along famously.

SeanW · 08-06-2012 9:12pm

Blowfish wrote: »

In hindsight, that seems a rather unfortunate turn of phrase, given that one of their spokesmen assaulted a member of an opposition party on live TV this morning.

Given that, I certainly can't see the booming support for Golden Dawn lasting too much longer.

I wouldn't be so confident: The Greek people are angry and they want their government to do something. But they can't do anything, because they're stuck in the Volkerkerker that is the Euro, had they kept the Drachma and a crisis occured (unlikely because interest rates would have stayed high) they could devalue their currency and get their country moving again. They could also default on their debts, that they obviously cannnot pay.

It's broadly similar to the position Germany found itself in during the Weimar years with its unbearable reparations bill. And we all know how THAT turned out - the Centre parties collapsed, the extremes of Communism and National Socialism triumphed with National Socialism (The NAZI Party) eventually prevailing.

It's easy to bash the Greeks these days for being spoiled, not paying taxes, expecting too much welfare/pensions, corruption etc, and to a certain extent a lot of that is true. But I don't think that tells all of the story.

Because of the various issues in Greece, more than 50% of that nation's youth is unemployed, and AFAIK they're the ones rioting in the streets demanding their government *do* something. I tend to believe that those people for the most part want to work, want to prosper. But without that, I fear that they will go further into extremes like that coalition of far left fruitcakes and the Golden Dawn types because it doesn't look like anyone else has any idea what to do.

The Corinthian · 09-06-2012 6:10pm

stefanovich wrote: »

There is a darker side to this however. Lower paid or underpaid workers from abroad are putting some people out of work, especially tradesmen or lower skilled workers.

I conceded that this could well be the case earlier. However, I was rebutting fianna saor's claim that immigration was at the root for the majority of Ireland's economic ills.

That one segment of the economy may be under pressure from cheaper immigrant labour does not constitute the root for the majority of Ireland's economic ills. Neither does it consider the economic benefits that such immigrants bring to the economy. Or explain how this may be related to either the property bubble, sovereign debt or Euro crisis's of the last few years.

It might appear to someone in that economic sector that they are the root for the majority of Ireland's economic ills, but in reality they are at worst the root for the majority of one Irish demographic's economic ills, nothing more.

And even that is questionable, because one of the reasons that such economic sectors were so vulnerable to competition is because they were so appallingly regulated, first and foremost by the sector itself.

There is also a bit of an ongoing scam where they get student visas in order to work and never attend their college courses.

We need to allow those with the required skills or who are in danger in their home countries into Ireland. Those scamming the system need to be removed.

I would tend to agree with this. Naturally abuse of the system, by anyone, should be stamped out; better regulating bogus courses that facilitate such 'working' visas for non-EU nationals is as important as stemming social welfare fraud by Irish and other EU nationals.

I doubt anyone (sane) would really object to that.

Jonny7 · 11-06-2012 8:48am

These people are just thugs dressed up as "politicians" trying to take advantage of the current economic discontent and mood to further their own racist agenda (during recessions the populace is more sucept to anti-immigration rhetoric and blame)

JustinDee · 11-06-2012 9:28am

stefanovich wrote: »

I hate to link to the DM but this is close:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1148363/Libraries-Bible-shelf-sop-Muslims.html
Not removing just moving to the top shelf with the porn

You could have just said no, you didn't have a link.

Ping Chow Chi · 11-06-2012 3:38pm

stefanovich wrote: »

I hate to link to the DM but this is close:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1148363/Libraries-Bible-shelf-sop-Muslims.html
Not removing just moving to the top shelf with the porn

They have porn in libraries now? ... man I need to get my library card renewed quick!

*on a slightly more serious note - shouldn't they be in the fairy tail section anyway?

The Corinthian · 11-06-2012 4:07pm

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

shouldn't they be in the fairy tail section anyway?

Was that a typo or gay porn that you hope to find in the library?

wes · 11-06-2012 4:23pm

Golden Dawn politician to sue TV assault victims

I will say this, Golden Dawn do seem to have no level that they won't sink too. Amazing that this character has not been charged imho, and quite frankly they are pretty brazen in what they are doing.

Also, the article talking about other Golden Dawn member arrested for allegedly running amok, is just another example of what this party really is. They are very much the opposite of a part of law and order.

sweeney1971 · 11-06-2012 4:28pm

Just be on the phone to a friend in England. The local authority has built 10 much needed four bedroomed houses. Fully furnished, gardens etc and every one has been given to a Foreign National and being paid for by the Tax payer. These people have given NOTHING to Society. Crime has gone up in the area and drugs are awash. No one dare say anything for fear of losing their Council homes for being branded a Racist.
So I agree with Golden Dawn because the same thing is happening there.

wes · 11-06-2012 4:39pm

sweeney1971 wrote: »

Just be on the phone to a friend in England. The local authority has built 10 much needed four bedroomed houses. Fully furnished, gardens etc and every one has been given to a Foreign National and being paid for by the Tax payer. These people have given NOTHING to Society. Crime has gone up in the area and drugs are awash. No one dare say anything for fear of losing their Council homes for being branded a Racist.

You have been talking to a "friend"........ I am sure you can back up what you "friend" has said....

sweeney1971 wrote: »

So I agree with Golden Dawn because the same thing is happening there.

Golden Dawn members seem to be responsible for a bit of crime themselves. So I take you support there criminality? Maybe you just choose to ignore it? Maybe you think its a leftist plot against them? Surely you must be aware of there thugish attacks etc.

Nodin · 11-06-2012 4:42pm

sweeney1971 wrote: »

Just be on the phone to a friend in England. The local authority has built 10 much needed four bedroomed houses. Fully furnished, gardens etc and every one has been given to a Foreign National and being paid for by the Tax payer. These people have given NOTHING to Society. Crime has gone up in the area and drugs are awash. No one dare say anything for fear of losing their Council homes for being branded a Racist.
So I agree with Golden Dawn because the same thing is happening there.

Another baseless anecdote. However it is useful, in that illustrates how the likes of Golden Dawn get votes - urban myths, half truths and prejudice.

A Golden Dawn in Greece

Comments