Iarnród Éireann rip off on Sallins route

Kashkai · 29-08-2006 10:18am #1

For years now, I've used the train from Maynooth (where I used to live) to get into town. The fare at the moment on this route is €2.70 single or €5 return. However I moved to Prosperous a year ago and I now have to drive 12 miles to Maynooth to get the train.

I decided yesterday to drive the 3 miles to Sallins to catch the Heuston bound train (and only 4 stops compared to nine on the Maynooth line). However, I thought there was something wrong with the ticket machines when I saw that the one way fare was €6 or 220% the cost of the fare from Maynooth. I asked the ticket agent and he confirmed that this was the cost. When I told him what the fare was from Maynooth, he said I could go there and catch that train (very helpful and thanks for stating the bleedin' obvious I replied).

Since I was already at the station I got the train, packed as it was, into town.

The distance from the city to Maynooth is 16 miles, Dublin to Naas is 20 miles. Both are suburbs of Dublin (whatever the locals may think). Now how can Iarnrod Eireann get away with charging this outrageous fare (because they can I hear you say).

Even taking petrol costs into account, its still cheaper to drive the 12 miles to Maynooth to catch the train from there which brings me into Tara st and then a 4 minute stroll to the office. Getting off the rip-off express from Sallins into Heston would then necessitate a 30 minute walk down the quays or more money on a Luas fare (if you could get on one).

Tom Dunne · 29-08-2006 10:30am

I feel your pain.

I'm in the same situation from Enfield. It is actually cheaper for me to drive to Maynooth and get the train from there rather than pay the extortionate fares from Enfield, even with petrol prices the way they are.

To give an example, monthly return from Maynooth is 83 Euro, from Enfield (approx. 10km away) 150 Euro. Almost double the price. I had the misfortune of having to get the train from Enfield last Friday, as I had a monthly ticket from Maynooth, I had to pay the difference between Enfield and Maynooth - six friggin' Euro.

Luckily, the place I work does the yearly tax saver ticket, so I am investing in that.

MarkoP11 · 29-08-2006 1:55pm

Its actually a curious anti compeditive move, note Sallins is not served by Dublin Bus so its a free for all

There is something else a little darker going on in Sallins which we are very close to cracking Irish Rails little money making system

Sallins is 17.9 miles, Maynooth is closer to 14

Ap · 29-08-2006 2:09pm

That's absolutely crazy! How do they get away with it?

I thought the pricing was done like in any sane country: Journey Length in Kilometers x price per km + Supplement (e.g. for ICE / TGV etc.)

Or is it a case of throw a dart at a price board for IrishRail?

Kashkai · 29-08-2006 2:33pm

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its actually a curious anti compeditive move, note Sallins is not served by Dublin Bus so its a free for all

There is something else a little darker going on in Sallins which we are very close to cracking Irish Rails little money making system

Sallins is 17.9 miles, Maynooth is closer to 14

Do you have a helicopter, as I drive the route regularly and there's no way Sallins is only 17.9 miles from Dublin City centre. Naas is 20 miles out and then you have to drive another 1 1/2 to get to Sallins. As for Maynooth, I drove this route for 13 years and it is 16 miles from the town to O'Connell bridge.

Anyway, this is off the point. Iarnrod Eireann are ripping off thousands of commuters on a daily basis for a crap service that leaves people at Heuston, a mile from the city centre. If the price of the Luas ticket was included in the cost of the train ticket, it might be a little bit more acceptable.

I'm curious - what is the dark scheme that you are planning to break IR's monopoly?

MarkoP11 · 29-08-2006 2:37pm

Many people have tried and complained but got nowhere, last guy was refused a meeting with the minister, its a case of understanding the variables of location and service type, Platform 11 will shortly reveal the truth and we can trace a series of overcharging events back to at least 1997, problem is it requries us to purchase each ticket and combinations of tickets on the same day of the week, its slow research. We also have to avoid the legal issues laid down in the law governing travel

Heuston Sallins is 17.9 miles by Iarnrod Eireann's datum marks, actually the GS&WR and they are accurate to within a few yards even 160 years on

Moonbeam · 29-08-2006 2:47pm

It is the same for people in Laytown and Drogheda,

The Dublin annual commuter ticket covers people in Balbriggan so fairs go crazy after Balbriggan station.

BeansMeansHynes · 29-08-2006 2:48pm

I detest Irish Rail, I used to get the Train from Mullingar to Dublin. It was 200euro for a monthly ticket, Train was packed the wholetime and I never had a seat. I take the bus now, small bit cheaper and the buses are more frequent than the trains. All in all, the transport in this country is s***e. I wouldnt mind if the high prices we pay shows through the clean warm litter free buses and trains but it doent.

MarkoP11 · 29-08-2006 3:16pm

Like I said the last guy didn't quite understand the situation certain stations fall into the trap some don't it took me 2 months to figure it out to such a state that I could construct a way to force a resolution, Mullingar I'm afraid doesn't fall into the trap, €200 for a monthly ticket for a 50 mile journey quite reasonable in fact for the distance, tax relief is available

Bear with me rushing this will result in failure the research and numbers have to be spot on. Asking for too much won't help either.

Right_Side · 29-08-2006 9:50pm

This whole problem is really just goes again to prove the point that public transport should be privatised. IE have a monopoly on the Sallins route as there is no competition (no buses).

Distance doesn't matter. Same as Ryanair charging €300 a ticket to somewhere they have a monopoly which is close by and €10 a ticket to somewhere with lots of competition on the far side of Europe.

MarkoP11 · 29-08-2006 10:05pm

Strangely enough IE don't set the fares but have the power to lower them

Commuter fares are by distance no other way of doing it

Bus Eireann serve the area and charge a fairly similar fare

Sarsfield · 29-08-2006 10:31pm

Right_Side wrote:

This whole problem is really just goes again to prove the point that public transport should be privatised. IE have a monopoly on the Sallins route as there is no competition (no buses).

Distance doesn't matter. Same as Ryanair charging €300 a ticket to somewhere they have a monopoly which is close by and €10 a ticket to somewhere with lots of competition on the far side of Europe.

Doesn't your second point (Ryanair - private airline) completely counter your first point (PT should be privatised)?

Few monopoilies make sense, if that's what you're getting at, but that's a different argument to privatisation. DB vs IE on the Maynooth run kind of showed that in an earlier post. Competition even within the CIE group works! Doesn't BE (and private operators) operate a service to Sallins?

DerekP11 · 29-08-2006 10:52pm

Right_Side wrote:

This whole problem is really just goes again to prove the point that public transport should be privatised. IE have a monopoly on the Sallins route as there is no competition (no buses).

Distance doesn't matter. Same as Ryanair charging €300 a ticket to somewhere they have a monopoly which is close by and €10 a ticket to somewhere with lots of competition on the far side of Europe.

Eh...not quite right. CIE actually have the monopoly on the Sallins/Naas route. When I moved to Naas in 1988 from Dublin, it was a complete culture shock when it came to Bus fares to Dublin (no train service back then) However, private operators on the route, charged similar fairs for the same journey. The only diffference was the quality of bus, speed of journey and less services provided by the private operators. Obviously, they didn't have to serve every stop through Naas, Johnstown, Kill and Rathcoole either.

Interestingly, in 1988, I paid £2.80 return to Dublin on Monday,Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday or Saturday. It was £3.75 on Friday and Sunday. (the old peak time routine. Naas was in the "medium hop" zone, so a weekly ticket that provided unlimited travel on BE, IE and DB was £17.

The entire culture of "apparent" excessive fares, stems from the CIE pricing culture that actually dates back to their formation. If we talk specifically about the Dublin area (which has expanded beyond traditional boundaries) both bus and rail fares are set by the routes of city buses. In simple terms, where the "double decker" stops, the route is served by a "provincial bus" and the price jumps accordingly. The train is linked to this system. Where a "commuter" train travels to a destination that is not served by a city bus, the fare jumps to an inter city journey. Lets look at obvious examples.

Hazelhatch station, serves Celbridge. Celbridge is served by DB. Therefore the return train fare is linked to the DB fare. Next stop down this line is sallins/Naas. DB don't serve this area. BE do, therefore the train price is linked to the higher BE fare. Balbriggan is also served by DB, therefore the train fare is also linked. Head to the next stops such as Laytown or Gormanstown and you're into BE territory (whether they provide a service or not) and the fare jumps accordingly. There are many many examples.

Put simply, the "CIE" fare structure has not moved with the times. Despite the changing demographics of the Dublin area and the resulting increase of commuters in areas such as Sallins, Gormanstown or Laytown, the fares have remained in the area of "long distance" (inter city rail/provincial bus). No attempt has been made to introduce any form of "mid range" charging, despite a rebranding of services by both IE and BE, to these areas as "commuter". Investment in infrastructure appears to be linked to the fares issues, as the DART is to be extended to Hazelhatch and Balbriggan, both areas served by DB. IE proposed Kildare town and Drogheda. So is the problem within CIE or the DOT. It was afterall the Government that created CIE. One to think about.

As MarkP11 has said we, at P11, are working on this issue of pricing on the rail network. It was highlighted by others on the northern line, but to really catch both IE/CIE and the DOT out, it requires careful research of tradition, practice and methods of implementation, by those in charge.

BuffyBot · 30-08-2006 9:55am

Doesn't BE (and private operators) operate a service to Sallins?

Not really. BE provide occasional services via Sallins, but otherwise travel to Naas or Clane is required, which means driving or travel via the private Naas Sallins - Clane - Sallins - Naas bus, which only operates once an hour each way and doesn't start too early, and finishes before 7 pm

cullenswood · 30-08-2006 1:27pm

tom dunne wrote:

I feel your pain.

I'm in the same situation from Enfield.

Luckily, the place I work does the yearly tax saver ticket, so I am investing in that.

Hi Tom,

How much is the ticket you are talking about cost to Enfield? And does it include the bus aswell. I would maybe take the train (as the 8.00 am train in suits), but the fact that there is only two trains home (17.15 and 18.20) does not suit at all, so I take the bus.

Anyone know if they are going to increase the services to Enfield in the near future?

Tom Dunne · 30-08-2006 3:39pm

cullenswood wrote:

How much is the ticket you are talking about cost to Enfield?

1500 Eurons. Now don't panic just yet. They take it out of your salary, before tax each fortnight/month. Full details here.

cullenswood wrote:

And does it include the bus aswell.

No, that price doesn't. Though I believe you can purchase one that does.

cullenswood wrote:

Anyone know if they are going to increase the services to Enfield in the near future?

<shameless plug> Keep an eye on community.meath.ie/enfieldresidents </shameless plug>

YoYOPowder · 31-08-2006 10:36am

Prosperous Dave wrote:

Do you have a helicopter, as I drive the route regularly and there's no way Sallins is only 17.9 miles from Dublin City centre. Naas is 20 miles out and then you have to drive another 1 1/2 to get to Sallins. As for Maynooth, I drove this route for 13 years and it is 16 miles from the town to O'Connell bridge.

Anyway, this is off the point. Iarnrod Eireann are ripping off thousands of commuters on a daily basis for a crap service that leaves people at Heuston, a mile from the city centre. If the price of the Luas ticket was included in the cost of the train ticket, it might be a little bit more acceptable.

I'm curious - what is the dark scheme that you are planning to break IR's monopoly?

Well to be pedantic, he could be right. If you say it could be that by Helicopter, then why not train? Most go 'as the crow flies', so I'd say it's not far off at all. He never mentioned driving its 17.5 miles. BTW, not many head for Naas to get out on the N7, the back road is especially good now with the new road finished.

Kashkai · 31-08-2006 12:09pm

YoYOPowder wrote:

Well to be pedantic, he could be right. If you say it could be that by Helicopter, then why not train? Most go 'as the crow flies', so I'd say it's not far off at all. He never mentioned driving its 17.5 miles. BTW, not many head for Naas to get out on the N7, the back road is especially good now with the new road finished.

What back road onto the N7?????????

YoYOPowder · 31-08-2006 12:27pm

Prosperous Dave wrote:

What back road onto the N7?????????

Well if you leave from Sallins to head for the N7 in rush hour traffic, heading up the Monread you immediately get stuck in traffic. You can now bypass the traffic right up to midway between Johnstown and Kill with the new Road. The back Road starts at the Canal bridge and goes out past the Primary School and Naas Golf course.

Kashkai · 31-08-2006 1:35pm

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a go.

shltter · 31-08-2006 9:12pm

I would imagine that the reason IE would give is that the fares are capacity based
ie they have capacity on that line and so it is cheaper to encourage people to travel and they dont have spare capacity on the other line hence they price it differently if the train was already packed at sallins then I presume their argument would be how many more people would turn up to travel if the fare was half that price.

MarkoP11 · 31-08-2006 9:43pm

Its got everything to do with Dublin Bus and there fare structure and service area, its historical.

Overcrowding is much worse elsewhere and the fares levels and proportions have remained the same over the last decade, fares from Kildare and Drogheda to the city are the same

You give irish Rail far too much credit if you think they have a yield management thing going on, yield management is a no no for commuter services and would unfairly penalise those suffering the most

shltter · 01-09-2006 12:34am

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its got everything to do with Dublin Bus and there fare structure and service area, its historical.

Overcrowding is much worse elsewhere and the fares levels and proportions have remained the same over the last decade, fares from Kildare and Drogheda to the city are the same

You give irish Rail far too much credit if you think they have a yield management thing going on, yield management is a no no for commuter services and would unfairly penalise those suffering the most

Fair enough I was only giving possible explanations

Iarnród Éireann rip off on Sallins route

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