Cecelia Ahern - hack, PS, I hate you, you suck

CDfm · 28-01-2009 11:00am

DublinWriter wrote: »

Nope. The real tragedy is that she wrote it all by herself.

Its not a tragedy -nobody dies.

CDfm · 28-01-2009 11:47am

Karlusss wrote: »

While I think you're both working off pretty basic assumptions as regards what critical analysis is...

Are you seriously suggesting that Cecilia Ahern's body of work is better than that of the Bronte sisters, which has endured and continued to be read and thought even though the direct context is long gone because of its skill and its universal appeal?

The thing about chick lit is, it's chick lit. It's like murder-mysteries or horror books, it's generic, it does what's expected of it and it doesn't overly challenge, as a whole. Is that why you prefer it to Shakespeare, Beckett, Joyce and Bronte? Because it doesn't challenge the way you think, or challenge you to think?

I can appreciate Cecilia Aherns writting for what it is.

I disagree with your universal appeal bit. Critical and educational appeal I would concede. Shakespeare is known because he is taught in schools and is probably the only writer of his era and genre people know.

Beckett I concede is more exciting then Ibsen but I dont like either. Joyce well is fine if you like that kind of stuff.

But the Bronte sisters are maudlin,morose sentimental ,depressing drivel -they are to the teaching of English in schools what Peig Sayers was to Irish.

My criticism is on two points. Our teaching of English in schools is very narrow and safe. Orwells Animal Farm works because it entertains and challenges. I would rate it above Dickens.

In schools- the teaching of English is top heavy in literature. I would say it takes a lot more skill to write in a tabloid style to get a point accross in descending order of importance for editing then is popularily believed.

I suspect that to unlearn the writting skills learned in school and adapting the chicklit style that she did took a lot of work. No one is out criticising Maeve Binchy.

I am not saying it will endure as literature but it is readable.

Elmo · 28-01-2009 1:24pm

CDfm wrote: »

My criticism is on two points. Our teaching of English in schools is very narrow and safe. Orwells Animal Farm works because it entertains and challenges. I would rate it above Dickens.

In schools- the teaching of English is top heavy in literature. I would say it takes a lot more skill to write in a tabloid style to get a point accross in descending order of importance for editing then is popularily believed.

You are condtradicting yourself since Orwells Animal Farm is studied in Irish Schools while I don't think any of Dickens novels are study, at least I don't remember any teachers mentioning him for study.

I have to disagree with a tabloid style of writting verus a more serious tone. But both are study at Junior Cert level (and since I left school possibly Leaving Cert). I think that the Sunday Indo is very tabloid and highly scarcastic but that isn't to suggest that the writters aren't talented, however a tabloid report of a murder tends to be bias and coservative and leading, unlike a broadsheet which tries to report the news in a serious manor.

Also studying literature often leads to a dislike of literature at a young age, perhaps it should be read rather then studied. I know that I found most of the work that we did a leaving cert more engaging as long as I wasn't over analysising the work for an essay at the end of 2 years.

CDfm · 28-01-2009 1:57pm

Elmo wrote: »

You are condtradicting yourself since Orwells Animal Farm is studied in Irish Schools while I don't think any of Dickens novels are study, at least I don't remember any teachers mentioning him for study.

I have to disagree with a tabloid style of writting verus a more serious tone. But both are study at Junior Cert level (and since I left school possibly Leaving Cert). I think that the Sunday Indo is very tabloid and highly scarcastic but that isn't to suggest that the writters aren't talented, however a tabloid report of a murder tends to be bias and coservative and leading, unlike a broadsheet which tries to report the news in a serious manor.

Also studying literature often leads to a dislike of literature at a young age, perhaps it should be read rather then studied.

I wasnt aware Animal Farm was being studied- my error.

But I agree on the Indo and get the Sunday Times and News of the World myself (for the sports coverage dont ya know)

Excellent observation that studying literature leads to a dislike of literature at a young age. I wish Id said that.

Just like the study or Irish leads to a dislike of Irish.

I would put PS I love you on the English Course if it encouraged reading. Andy McNab too - I find that his descriptive narratives of gunfire and explosions capture the transcience of mans existence in a way Cecilia Ahern doesnt.

Eoin · 28-01-2009 2:07pm

There's a thread on what you had to read in school somewhere in this forum. There are some good books mentioned that are well written, but accessible to kids as well. Lord of the Flies is one of them for me.

Mr. Frost · 28-01-2009 2:13pm

Spot the failed/failing writer.

juicyjellybabe · 28-01-2009 2:31pm

I started 'P.S. I Love you' a few months ago and couldn't finish it, it was so bad. The premise and story idea is original and interesting but I found it very badly written. The partwhere the main character pretends to be a princess to get entry into a nightclub was cheesy, unbelievable, idiotic and nonsensical. It resembled a junior cert level short story.

CDfm · 28-01-2009 3:27pm

juicyjellybabe wrote: »

I started 'P.S. I Love you' a few months ago and couldn't finish it, it was so bad. The premise and story idea is original and interesting but I found it very badly written. The partwhere the main character pretends to be a princess to get entry into a nightclub was cheesy, unbelievable, idiotic and nonsensical. It resembled a junior cert level short story.

In fact the storyline is not that original but the book is not plagurised. I heard an American author on Newstalk 106 who had written a book with a similar plot and which was published before Aherns book and she didnt speak at all negatively of it. PS I love you was also the title of an early Beatles song.

RonMexico · 28-01-2009 4:32pm

It is what it is. Take it or leave it.

CDfm · 28-01-2009 4:38pm

juicyjellybabe wrote: »

I started 'P.S. I Love you' a few months ago and couldn't finish it

Slow readers often find it easier to put there fingers under the words and read it outloud. Many who tackle Joyce do it like that too.:D:D:D:D

PS Im not joking on the Joyce technique

Acacia · 29-01-2009 12:15am

CDfm wrote: »

I can appreciate Cecilia Aherns writting for what it is.

So can I. I can appreciate it as a piece of enjoyable, easy-to-read chick-lit. That's not snobbery. That's just what it is.

CDfm wrote: »

But the Bronte sisters are maudlin,morose sentimental ,depressing drivel -they are to the teaching of English in schools what Peig Sayers was to Irish.

The Bronte sisters' work is only 'maudlin, morose, sentimental, depressing drivel' in your opinion. For many other people, their works are some of the best in English literature.

Just because you don't particularly like them, it does not mean they aren't brilliant writers, or that they shouldn't be read in schools. They have remained popular for years for a reason.

There are many literary 'greats' whose I work I don't particularly enjoy, but I can still see why their work is respected and admired, and would hate to see it replaced in schools by an airport novel for the sake of accessibility.

CDfm wrote: »

My criticism is on two points. Our teaching of English in schools is very narrow and safe. Orwells Animal Farm works because it entertains and challenges. I would rate it above Dickens.

I don't see how the teaching of English in schools can be both 'narrow and safe' and yet also too focused on difficult literature.

To say 'Animal Farm' 'entertains and challenges' is not in fact actually saying very much about it, at all. How does it entertain and challenge? In what way is it higher rating than Dickens?

CDfm wrote: »

In schools- the teaching of English is top heavy in literature. I would say it takes a lot more skill to write in a tabloid style to get a point accross in descending order of importance for editing then is popularily believed.

Of course, it's top heavy in literature. What should it be top-heavy in? Newspapers and magazines?

I fail to see how it 'takes more skill' to write in a tabloid style than a literary style. The task of the tabloid writer is to convey the information in short, satisfying, snappy way. To write in a literary style requires being able to reflect real life situations with eloquence. You can't compare 'Great Expectations' with a tabloid story about Kerry Katona's latest diet, for example.

The 'jobs', if you will, of the tabloid and literary writer are completely different, imo.

CDfm wrote: »

I suspect that to unlearn the writting skills learned in school and adapting the chicklit style that she did took a lot of work.

Why would Aherne want to 'unlearn the writing skills' she learned in school? Surely, she would have learned to analyze and criticize texts, and this would be useful in her own writing, even if it is 'chick-lit'.

CDfm wrote: »

I am not saying it will endure as literature but it is readable.

'Ok' magazine is readable. The label on the back of a ketchup bottle is readable. Plenty of things are 'readable'- it doesn't mean they should be taught in schools.

The point of studying these difficult texts in schools is to develop critical and analytical skills, and also to understand what makes great writers 'great'. To understand why they have endured as literature.

What would students gain from studying 'P.S. I Love You'? Sure, they might have an easier time reading it than 'Pride and Prejudice' but that's not the point. Just like the point of learning algebra is not to have an easy time doing maths, but to challenge the student and let them develop mentally.

CDfm · 29-01-2009 12:51am

Acacia wrote: »

The Bronte sisters' work is only 'maudlin, morose, sentimental, depressing drivel' in your opinion. For many other people, their works are some of the best in English literature.

There are many literary 'greats' whose I work I don't particularly enjoy, but I can still see why their work is respected and admired, and would hate to see it replaced in schools by an airport novel for the sake of accessibility.

To say 'Animal Farm' 'entertains and challenges' is not in fact actually saying very much about it, at all. How does it entertain and challenge? In what way is it higher rating than Dickens?

Of course, it's top heavy in literature. What should it be top-heavy in? Newspapers and magazines?

You can't compare 'Great Expectations' with a tabloid story about Kerry Katona's latest diet, for example.

Why would Aherne want to 'unlearn the writing skills' she learned in school? Surely, she would have learned to analyze and criticize texts, and this would be useful in her own writing, even if it is 'chick-lit'.

Thats where we differ. The Brontes was chicklit of a different era.Dickens stories were serialised in periodicals and dont fit in the way or format they are analysed. Technically great but period pieces. If they werent studied at school I suspect very few of us would be aware of them.

Nice juxtaposition Great Expectations with Kerry Katonas latest diet.

My point is that its counterproductive to teach analytical skills in literature to people who are too imature to grasp the holistic nature of the political and social context of the literature they are reading.Thats not a put down but where is the fun;did Lady Macbeth really have a spot and why was Polonius stabbed in the arse?

Cecelia Ahernes work outranks the Brontes. Probably because it is real life experiences. The Brontes and boredom sit side by side - you can feel the cold damp countryside life in every line and it goes on and on and on.You are almost pleased that they died young as it stopped them writting more.

Orwell trumps Dickens as he entertains as well as tackles a difficult issue in an energetic and inventive way. Education wants its literature sanitised and bores down the subject. Is the sanitised Malones edition of Shakespeare still studied in schools?

By all means study the stuff but dont pretend it fosters a love of literature or teaches someone to write in a modern,technical or business style. It doesnt and it cant.

Permabear · 29-01-2009 1:06am

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CDfm · 29-01-2009 1:16am

donegalfella wrote: »

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I am pleased you like them and Donegal is probably a great setting to read them in. I was using death methaphorically. IF they had gone to the pub with Bramwell life would be more enjoyable for lots of people.

Is it true that the widower of the last one lived comfortably in Ireland on the royalties?

Acacia · 29-01-2009 1:29am

CDfm wrote: »

Thats where we differ. The Brontes was chicklit of a different era.Dickens stories were serialised in periodicals and dont fit in the way or format they are analysed. Technically great but period pieces. If they werent studied at school I suspect very few of us would be aware of them.

That's a rather big assumption. Dickens work was greatly admired in his day- as in, many people enjoyed his work without it being studied in school. I don't really see the point in this line of argument- surely the Brontes and Dickens are studied on schools because they are 'technically great'. The fact that they are 'period pieces' or from a different era does not mean they are any less great. And assuming nobody would be familiar with them if they weren't read in schools doesn't make them any less great either.

CDfm wrote: »

My point is that its counterproductive to teach analytical skills in literature to people who are too imature to grasp the holistic nature of the political and social context of the literature they are reading.Thats not a put down but where is the fun;did Lady Macbeth really have a spot and why was Polonius stabbed in the arse?

Why do you assume teenagers can't grasp the context of the political and social context of literature? They're young adults, not children, and are perfectly capable of understanding the context of Shakespeare's plays.

How is it counter-productive to teach analytical skills in relation to such literature?

Shakespeare can be 'fun' to teach, once you get out of the mind set of 'this language is too difficult/ I can't relate to the characters, etc'. It's precisely this thinking that leads to people suggesting that students read more 'accessible' texts. But, you see, how can Shakespeare ever become more accessible or enjoyable if people are too ready to toss it aside as 'too hard'?

CDfm wrote: »

Cecelia Ahernes work outranks the Brontes. Probably because it is real life experiences. The Brontes and boredom sit side by side - you can feel the cold damp countryside life in every line and it goes on and on and on.You are almost pleased that they died young as it stopped them writting more.

In your opinion. That doesn't make it true.

Perhaps they are regarded as geniuses because you can ''feel the cold, damp countryside life in every line''? Perhaps their talent lies in evoking the atmosphere and surroundings of the characters so superbly?

And is the sole reason for Aherne's work being better than the Brontes because it is based on 'real life'? Well, Lowood school in 'Jane Eyre' for example, was based on Charlotte's own experiences in a boarding school. Though ''it's based on real life' is not really a valid criticism of literature, in fairness. Are there any actual reasons why Aherne's work is better, in your opinion?

CDfm wrote: »

Orwell trumps Dickens as he entertains as well as tackles a difficult issue in an energetic and inventive way. Education wants its literature sanitised and bores down the subject. Is the sanitised Malones edition of Shakespeare still studied in schools?

I'm not familiar with Malone's edition, but the plays I studied in school left all the gory details in.

Why do you think educations bores and sanitizes literature? By challenging students with difficult texts , I believe it does the opposite. Education cannot bore and sanitize literature unless the literature itself is boring and sanitized. What is the problem then, that students have to deal with difficult texts or that these texts are 'dumbed down'?

Your description of Orwell still doesn't really explain how he is better than Dickens. I could say Dickens tackles a difficult issue ( say, of orphanages in 'Oliver Twist') in an energetic and inventive way. That's not really an adequate comparison of the two texts though, just offering an opinion on them.

CDfm wrote: »

by all means study the stuff but dont pretend it fosters a love of literature or teaches someone to write in a modern,technical or business style. It doesnt and it cant.

What a bizarre statement. I'm not 'pretending' anything. I do know for many people studying such literature does foster a love of reading and writing. You say ''it doesn't and it can't'' as if it as a statement of fact, rather than opinion. Just because reading Shakespeare didn't do anything for you, it doesn't mean many other people have not developed a love of literature or writing because of it.

Why does writing have to be in a modern , technical or business style to be valid ? (though I think reading such literature can help a writer develop their own individual style, whatever that may be.)

29-01-2009 1:38am

CDfm wrote: »

In fact the storyline is not that original but the book is not plagurised. I heard an American author on Newstalk 106 who had written a book with a similar plot and which was published before Aherns book and she didnt speak at all negatively of it. PS I love you was also the title of an early Beatles song.

The plot is also used in a Korean film that came out long before "PS".

CDfm wrote: »

Thats where we differ. The Brontes was chicklit of a different era.

Chicklit doesn't mean "books by women", it means trashy romances with generic characters and clichéd, contrived plots. The Brontes' work are a little deeper than that I should hope.

My point is that its counterproductive to teach analytical skills in literature to people who are too imature to grasp the holistic nature of the political and social context of the literature they are reading.Thats not a put down but where is the fun;did Lady Macbeth really have a spot and why was Polonius stabbed in the arse?

So we should always pander to the bottom 50% rather than the top 5%? The thickos won't listen whatever book you read, so you may as well only bother with the best students.

Orwell trumps Dickens as he entertains as well as tackles a difficult issue in an energetic and inventive way. Education wants its literature sanitised and bores down the subject. Is the sanitised Malones edition of Shakespeare still studied in schools?

You know it isn't, the bowdlerised versions disappeared decades ago.

CDfm · 29-01-2009 11:37am

994 wrote: »

The plot is also used in a Korean film that came out long before "PS".

Chicklit doesn't mean "books by women", it means trashy romances with generic characters and clichéd, contrived plots. The Brontes' work are a little deeper than that I should hope.

So we should always pander to the bottom 50% rather than the top 5%? The thickos won't listen whatever book you read, so you may as well only bother with the best students.

You know it isn't, the bowdlerised versions disappeared decades ago.

Wow- chicklit is in the eye of the beholder. The Brontes books are filled with over descriptive narrative that is symptomatic of the Victorian era- but it is not truly representative of it. And it aint racy.

100% less 5% is 95%. So 95% get excluded. So you are conceding that rather then having universal appeal the Brontes appeal to only 5% of students. The others may have a "working knowledge" but only 5% develope the critical skills to appreciate it. Dont you think thats sad and the model needs review if thats the case.

In the 40s,50s and 60s many kids left school at 12 or so - the secondary system was geared towards University ,the Arts and Teaching etc. It now has a wider remit. That people arent interested or are bored doesnt make them thickos.

turgon · 29-01-2009 12:38pm

CDfm wrote: »

In the 40s,50s and 60s many kids left school at 12 or so - the secondary system was geared towards University ,the Arts and Teaching etc. It now has a wider remit. That people arent interested or are bored doesnt make them thickos.

Do you remember that scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin Williams is praising English as a subject? He makes as good point: in Maths and Business etc you learn information with a view to getting a job to enable you live life. In English learn to appreciate literature so as to enjoy life. Well it was put much more eloquently than that.

CDfm · 29-01-2009 1:15pm

turgon wrote: »

Do you remember that scene in Dead Poets Society where Robin Williams is praising English as a subject? He makes as good point: in Maths and Business etc you learn information with a view to getting a job to enable you live life. In English learn to appreciate literature so as to enjoy life. Well it was put much more eloquently than that.

Cant remember much of the movie- but well - what if poetry and literature isnt your bag.
Say its greyhounds or football. Whats wrong with reading an inspirational football book that describes the thrills and spills?

Not everyone wants to be analytical or appreciates the search for a deeper and profound truth.So does that mean that people who are less deep and introspective have to change. Maybe I dont want to understand deeper motivations or the colour of the leaves dont move me. Macbeth's head on a spike or Fleance's rotting corpse will do me fine.

Acacia · 29-01-2009 1:52pm

CDfm wrote: »

Wow- chicklit is in the eye of the beholder. The Brontes books are filled with over descriptive narrative that is symptomatic of the Victorian era- but it is not truly representative of it. And it aint racy.

Chick-lit is not 'in the eye of the beholder'. Amanda Brunker is chick-lit. Cecelia Aherne is chick-lit. Why? Because they fit into the description that 994 posted above basically.

Wouldn't the fact that the Bronte's books aren't 'racy' mean that they are not chick-lit?

I hope you're not basing your opinion that they are chick-lit writers on the fact that they are women. After all, the sisters wrote under male pseudonyms back when they were first published- would they really have been considered chick-lit if their books were supposedly written by men?

Could you also give an example of the Bronte's over-descriptive narrative? I can't say I've noticed it in their books, tbh.

CDfm wrote: »

100% less 5% is 95%. So 95% get excluded. So you are conceding that rather then having universal appeal the Brontes appeal to only 5% of students. The others may have a "working knowledge" but only 5% develope the critical skills to appreciate it. Dont you think thats sad and the model needs review if thats the case.

I don't know what you're basing that 5% statistic on. I also don't know what you mean by a 'working knowledge'.

Just because you don't like the Brontes it doesn't mean they don't hold universal appeal- among students, or the wider population.

CDfm wrote: »

In the 40s,50s and 60s many kids left school at 12 or so - the secondary system was geared towards University ,the Arts and Teaching etc. It now has a wider remit. That people arent interested or are bored doesnt make them thickos.

Of course not, but it doesn't mean that the course should be 'dumbed down' at the disadvantage of students who aren't disinterested or bored.

For example, I wasn't particularly brilliant at chemistry. It shouldn't mean however that the chemistry class should have sat drawing pictures of molecules all day just because I found chemical equations difficult,and thought the subject was dry and boring. That wouldn't be fair on the more interested students.

Acacia · 29-01-2009 2:01pm

CDfm wrote: »

Cant remember much of the movie- but well - what if poetry and literature isnt your bag.
Say its greyhounds or football. Whats wrong with reading an inspirational football book that describes the thrills and spills?

Not everyone wants to be analytical or appreciates the search for a deeper and profound truth.So does that mean that people who are less deep and introspective have to change. Maybe I dont want to understand deeper motivations or the colour of the leaves dont move me. Macbeth's head on a spike or Fleance's rotting corpse will do me fine.

So now we've moved from ''let's take Shakespeare off the English courses in schools'' to ''oh well, what if you don't like reading literature anyway?''

As has been pointed out before, the point of difficult literature is to challenge and develop critical skills.

There is nothing wrong with reading a book about football- who said there was?

The problem is replacing Shakespeare, Dickens and the Brontes with books on football because some students find literature boring.

The point of English classes (and school in general) is not to pander to students with 'easy' stuff, whether that be maths, English, or any other subject. The point of education is to challenge yourself and develop mentally.

You could for example, talk in baby language to a child for its entire childhood because it's too hard or too much effort to bother teaching him/her proper grammar. But the child will not develop and grow.

It's fine if you're not interested in literature like Shakespeare. It's fine if certain students find it boring and don't want to study it. It doesn't mean it should be taken off the course because it's too hard for some students to grasp. Nobody is forcing them 'to change' themselves just by asking them to read 'Macbeth' or 'Wuthering heights' instead of 'P.S. I Love You.'

Elmo · 29-01-2009 2:23pm

I suppose Cecelia Ahern's novels bring up disscussions of talent, quality and education.

Eoin · 29-01-2009 2:33pm

I think there's a halfway point in a lot of cases though. Death of a Salesman and Lord of the Flies (that is leaving cert, right?) are very accessible but not just fluff. Shakespeare wasn't too bad either once I got past the language barrier.

As much as I enjoy reading I absolutely detested A Portrait of the artist as a young man. I've bought a couple of the books I read in school and enjoyed them, but I will never forget what a pain that book was, and how little I got out of it.

Permabear · 29-01-2009 2:51pm

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Eoin · 29-01-2009 2:53pm

Surely that's more of a reason to pick books that are more accessible. And as I've said a couple of times, there are good books that are more easier to read.

Karlusss · 29-01-2009 7:05pm

Let's clarify something, too. Even if, against all reason, you consider Wuthering Heights to be 'the chick lit of its day'...

Comparing it to Cecelia Ahern like-for-like is assuming that Cecelia Ahern, of all the authors working in the chick lit genre right now, is one of the very best, that her treatments are universal and that it's well written enough to appeal to people who no longer speak or think in the same patterns...

You're essentially saying that, in fifty years time when you look back at the literature of the 00s, Cecelia Ahern will be one of the thinks you hold and consider exemplary.

The idea of that makes me cry.

CDfm · 29-01-2009 7:12pm

Karlusss wrote: »

Let's clarify something, too. Even if, against all reason, you consider Wuthering Heights to be 'the chick lit of its day'...

Comparing it to Cecelia Ahern like-for-like is assuming that Cecelia Ahern, of all the authors working in the chick lit genre right now, is one of the very best, that her treatments are universal and that it's well written enough to appeal to people who no longer speak or think in the same patterns...

You're essentially saying that, in fifty years time when you look back at the literature of the 00s, Cecelia Ahern will be one of the thinks you hold and consider exemplary.

The idea of that makes me cry.

Wuthering Heights - a hero nobody likes and hates ,babies born, mellodramatic kitchen sink stuff and hanging dogs. Pass the sick bag.

How depressing if the Brontes are the best the 19th Century have to offer.

Mary Shelley where are you when we need ya.

Permabear · 29-01-2009 7:15pm

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CDfm · 29-01-2009 7:48pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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I am serious and I think threads like this are very useful because they discuss how we look at things.For the literati Wuthering Heights is a classic and art. Yet the "Borstal Boy" is a lesson in a simple style as is PS I love you.

People who become English teachers do so because they are fans and cant see why others cant share their enthusiasm for language and hate these books they love.Convincing themselves and others that the rest of us are thickos and philistines.

Not everyone is inspired by the same stuff - beacause Wuthering Heights is dark and dreary I dont like it. Its nothing to do with the descriptive narrative style -its a headwrecking story and mush.

Very much like Dirty Den in Eastenders Heathcliff shows up without explanation...................to seek revenge and wreak havoc............................

Permabear · 29-01-2009 8:37pm

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CDfm · 29-01-2009 8:49pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Donegalfella -thats your gig and what you like.That sounds like English teacher heaven.

By canonical literature and aesthetics does that mean not being able to write a job application or fill out a bank application form,dole forms or read a menu in a resteraunt or order parts for a Massey Ferguson tractor on-line or place your own bets in the bookies and read the form.

Maybe there is a bit more to English but with 25% of the country functionally illiterate -ahem?

Permabear · 29-01-2009 9:01pm

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Valmont · 29-01-2009 9:04pm

If I don't like an author or style of writing (e.g. Harry Potter), I just don't read it and I certainly don't register on boards.ie to post a rant. You just sound like an insecure snob, why don't you drag yourself through Finnegan's Wake again to make yourself feel better?

Thomas_S_Hunterson · 29-01-2009 9:07pm

CDfm wrote: »

Donegalfella -thats your gig and what you like.That sounds like English teacher heaven.

By canonical literature and aesthetics does that mean not being able to write a job application or fill out a bank application form,dole forms or read a menu in a resteraunt or order parts for a Massey Ferguson tractor on-line or place your own bets in the bookies and read the form.

Maybe there is a bit more to English but with 25% of the country functionally illiterate -ahem?

Literacy is taught before secondary level, and often before primary level by parents.

At secondary level, students should have developed sufficient literacy to be able to deal with literature and the English language in an academic way. If not, then there is always remedial classes.

There is no way basic literacy should be taught in a second level English class. The vast majority of students would be bored out of their skull. It would be like teaching them how to eat a pizza.

Valmont · 29-01-2009 9:15pm

CDfm wrote: »

By all means study the stuff but dont pretend it fosters a love of literature or teaches someone to write in a modern,technical or business style. It doesnt and it cant.

May I say that my 6th year leaving cert course was what got me interested in reading what I thought were 'boring old books' and reading the odd bit of poetry and actually learning to appreciate Shakespeare. I have since read MacBeth because I enjoyed Hamlet so much.

The analytical and technical skills I learned also held me in very good stead when I started college and I definitely felt thankful to have a great English teacher who helped me to develop my interests and abilities.

Perhaps I'm not as informed as you are as to the intricacies of the English language, but anyone can see you're just spouting nonsense for the most part.

Blush_01 · 29-01-2009 10:02pm

I have nothing against Cecelia Aherne, fair play to her for making a very good career for herself at such a young age. If anything, I'm probably a bit jealous of her - I certainly don't have the ability to write a novel, be it good, bad or indifferent, and what she writes is read by a huge number of people. In addition, her plots seem quite original.

Unfortunately, I read 12 pages of PS I Love You and my eyes burned. That's my snobbery coming out, so I didn't finish it. My sister, by comparison, loves her and thinks she's borderline deity. I also thought the movie of the book, which I was forced to sit through, was ridiculous, but that was because of a combination of idiotic "Oirish" accents and poor acting.

I have nothing against chick-lit. I like quite a lot of Irish chick-lit writers. My only problem with Cecelia Aherne's novels is that they're poorly written.

Permabear · 29-01-2009 10:52pm

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29-01-2009 11:14pm

CDfm wrote: »

People who become English teachers do so because they are fans and cant see why others cant share their enthusiasm for language and hate these books they love.Convincing themselves and others that the rest of us are thickos and philistines.

No-one would expect the most complex physics or mathematics to be comprehensible to the layman; why should literature be different? The "thickos and philistines" in the class won't read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man; but they probably wouldn't be bothered reading PS I Love You either. Why should classes be tailored to those who don't want to try?

Blush_01 · 30-01-2009 12:35am

[Rant] I've always liked reading and secondary school fostered that to a degree (although my own pigheadedness had a large part to play in that). I was allowed to be a little more vocal than others in my preferences, especially where comparative literature was concerned, and I chose to disregard two of the texts prescribed by my teachers so I had the scope to cover what actually interested me. That's because I actually cared about what I was reading.

The majority of the others in my class merely studied what they were told to, learned off the quotes they were told to know and regurgitated their notes in the exams. The leaving cert doesn't encourage any individuality or independent thought, so what's studied outside the required texts, or within the confines of comparative literature where three of 25 texts are chosen, had better be both easily compared/contrasted and be something that will capture the imagination of the majority.

English at university level is different - the time restrictions mean you make your own choices. Things like PS I Love You are often frowned upon, even within their class or genre, because there are so many other texts with much more critical acclaim and far superior content available. I can't blame my peers for that.

Take the writing of Patricia Scanlon or Sheila O'Flanagan and compare it to Cecelia Aherne and you get a much clearer picture of the divide between old chick-lit and new chick-lit, the age groups who are interested in the books etc. Teenagers can relate to what Cecelia Aherne has to say, if only because it's coming from someone who has recently been a teenager. Patricia Scanlon and Sheila O'Flanagan belong to an older generation and write to their tastes. In the middle you have people like Marisa Mackle and Sophie Kinsella. It's economics covered in pink fluff, flowers and chocolate, and the authors are entrepreneurs rather than the new literati.

Nobody suggests that Sebastian Barry and Cecelia Aherne are on the same level, though they both might write in what their readership consider to be a very simple and readable manner and have interesting plotlines. [/rant]

CDfm · 30-01-2009 1:16am

994 wrote: »

No-one would expect the most complex physics or mathematics to be comprehensible to the layman; why should literature be different? The "thickos and philistines" in the class won't read A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man; but they probably wouldn't be bothered reading PS I Love You either. Why should classes be tailored to those who don't want to try?

I have a choice -lots of people dont - but the system should facilitate and give the ordinary guy the skills to read and enjoy what he wants if only for entertainment.

Maybe I cant understand one end of a car engine from another or Know my ELCBs from my trip switches but the guys who do those jobs need functional literacy.

IF I find the content of a book on a bit of the flaky side or depressing - I wont fake liking it for kudos.

Alfasud · 30-01-2009 1:41am

"P.S> I love you was a good idea but after the first chapter the writing fell apart How many times did we see "the girls giggled"

Permabear · 30-01-2009 1:55am

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deadhead13 · 30-01-2009 1:58am

I think op is less about literary critic - more about plain old jealously.

Funny how he/she has dissappeared after 1 post.

CDfm · 30-01-2009 2:03am

donegalfella wrote: »

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so how do the functionaly illiterate get thru secondary school and exams?

Permabear · 30-01-2009 2:09am

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CDfm · 30-01-2009 8:23am

donegalfella wrote: »

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a bit off topic -I think English Lit should be a different subject from English optional for poets and dreamers.

I would add PS I love you to it as a reality check.

But where do the literati get the right to restrict literacy or indeed choose to impose their taste on the rest of us? Could it be that the Brontes would go unread?

Mal-Adjusted · 30-01-2009 4:13pm

deadhead13 wrote: »

Yes, being Berties daughter opened doors, but that on its own wouldn't have been enough to make her as successful as she is.

i'm sorry but this is laughable. how many other first-time authors got a film deal on their work before they had even finished wrighting the bloody thing? of course she;s riding daddys success. it helps to be in the golden circle...

Acacia · 30-01-2009 10:26pm

CDfm wrote: »

I am serious and I think threads like this are very useful because they discuss how we look at things.For the literati Wuthering Heights is a classic and art. Yet the "Borstal Boy" is a lesson in a simple style as is PS I love you.

Who are these mysterious literati you speak of?

Yes, for many people 'Wuthering Heights' is a classic and art, not just for those snobs in their ivory tower who are forcing their love of literature of the 'ordinary Joe'. :rolleyes:

CDfm wrote: »

People who become English teachers do so because they are fans and cant see why others cant share their enthusiasm for language and hate these books they love.Convincing themselves and others that the rest of us are thickos and philistines.

Why do you assume why people become English teachers? You don't know their reasons. You seem to have this idea that anybody who has passion for 'serious' literature is a snob who labels others as 'thickos'. It is simply not the case, for the most part, I would say. Perhaps you would like to believe this because it fits your view of boring and difficult literature being 'forced on the little guy'?

To be honest, I find your position a bit ridiculous. Surely if English teachers love literature, they will pass on their enthusiasm to show that these works can be universally- enjoyed, not just by intellectuals but by 'the ordinary Joe'. It is not about being snobby and being above everyone else- quite the opposite, I would say.

CDfm wrote: »

Not everyone is inspired by the same stuff - beacause Wuthering Heights is dark and dreary I dont like it. Its nothing to do with the descriptive narrative style -its a headwrecking story and mush.

Very much like Dirty Den in Eastenders Heathcliff shows up without explanation...................to seek revenge and wreak havoc............................

Of course not everyone is inspired by the same stuff- but if you don't give them a shot at difficult literature, how will they ever know if they like it or not? I think saying that " the man on the street will never grasp high literature anyway so don't bother putting it on the course" is actually far more insulting than asking that the 'average joe' try something more difficult than what they're used to.

Also, I thought you had a problem with the Brontes' work because of the 'over descriptive narrative', now you're saying it has 'nothing to do with why you don't like it'. I'm sorry but saying ''it's a headwrecking story and mush'' is not very convincing if you're trying to make a case against it being one of the best novels in the English literature.

CDfm wrote: »

I have a choice -lots of people dont - but the system should facilitate and give the ordinary guy the skills to read and enjoy what he wants if only for entertainment.

As donegalfella points out, basic literacy skills are already developed at primary school level. Should the 'ordinary guy' never be able to go beyond that?

CDfm wrote: »

Maybe I cant understand one end of a car engine from another or Know my ELCBs from my trip switches but the guys who do those jobs need functional literacy.

And they should have functional literacy from primary school- what's your point?

Also, why can't a car mechanic enjoy 'Wuthering Heights'? Is he too much of an 'ordinary joe' for all that high-falutin' rubbish? :rolleyes:

CDfm wrote: »

IF I find the content of a book on a bit of the flaky side or depressing - I wont fake liking it for kudos.

You don't have to 'fake liking it'.

You're demonstrating here why precisely you don't grasp what teaching literature and literary criticism is about.

It's not about fawning over the classics and looking down on people who don't share your taste- it's about the developing the critical skills to explain why or why not you don't like it in a more concise way than ''it's a head wrecking story''.

CDfm wrote: »

a bit off topic -I think English Lit should be a different subject from English optional for poets and dreamers.

I would add PS I love you to it as a reality check.

But where do the literati get the right to restrict literacy or indeed choose to impose their taste on the rest of us? Could it be that the Brontes would go unread?

Why do you insist on labeling people as 'poets and dreamers' and 'the literati'?

Isn't it possible that everyone should get to enjoy great literature and not be pandered to with airport novels?

For example, I come from a very working-class family. I'm the first one to go to university. Fifty years ago , as a working class girl,I would probably never have gotten the chance to go to college and study great literature precisely because of this kind of thinking i.e. that I'm an ordinary Joe and I wouldn't get it anyway. I know this was the case with my older relatives.

And whatever you have against the Brontes, I think it's fairly laughable to suggest that they would go unread just because they're not taught in schools.

To be honest, I'm wondering if I'm wasting my time writing this as you haven't responded to my other posts. Oh well, I feel very passionately about this subject, and if it was ever decided to remove great literature from schools just because the 'ordinary guy' can't handle it, I think it would be a very sad day.

CDfm · 30-01-2009 11:45pm

I lifted the label thickos from another literati. Donegalfella is the arch literati- and he has admitted to liking Yeats too.

But there is more to English then literature and I have no doubt that people enjoy the Brontes Wuthering Heights at that level.Fraustrated female living on the moor seeks psycho -it might say on Match.com

But the teaching of English is not just literature and thats my point -its functional literacy as well. Why shouldnt a lad not be able to read a football programme or the horescopes. English teachers do have a responsibility - and thats reading and writing.So what happens those who havent those skills after primary. If they are not up to standard send them back.

Im not saying a guy cant like these works. Im just saying I dont.I could never be enthused by it. Part of that is the drab storylines. I also cant get enthused by poets descibing flights of herons or woods in snow. But a dirty old greyhound dog winning a race might do it.

Im not saying the ordinary guy cant handle it or tackle it. Im just saying he may not want to and may prefer the car manual or a book about a greyhound or a footballer.

I have no problem with you liking those books as they are to your taste and as challenging and beautifully written as they are -to me they are headwrecking mush.

Its great that you like the stuff and have read all this great literature -and if its any concilation I dont like Eastenders either.I just cant get enthused.

Acacia · 31-01-2009 12:30am

CDfm wrote: »

I lifted the label thickos from another literati. Donegalfella is the arch literati- and he has admitted to liking Yeats too.

So what if he likes Yeats?

How does this make him the 'arch-literati'? Tbh, I would be pretty annoyed at being labeled that way were I donegalfella.

You're just labeling people as this and that, not arguing your point sufficiently, in my opinion.

You're missing my basic point- it's not about being a literati or a 'thicko'- everybody should get the chance to at least try literature. And they won't get the chance if they have to deal with 'P.S. I Love You' instead of Shakespeare.

CDfm wrote: »

But there is more to English then literature and I have no doubt that people enjoy the Brontes Wuthering Heights at that level.Fraustrated female living on the moor seeks psycho -it might say on Match.com

Fair enough if that's all you got out of 'Wuthering Heights'. But just because others can see beyond a potential advert on match.com it doesn't make them snobs, or literary bores.

CDfm wrote: »

But the teaching of English is not just literature and thats my point -its functional literacy as well. Why shouldnt a lad not be able to read a football programme or the horescopes. English teachers do have a responsibility - and thats reading and writing.So what happens those who havent those skills after primary. If they are not up to standard send them back.

I'm not entirely sure you're familiar with the teaching of English at secondary level. That's not meant to sound condescending but it seems you don't know exactly what's on the course. For the Leaving and Junior Cert exams,Paper 1 is generally involved with functional writing (letters, newspapers, reviews, etc). Paper 2 is involved with poetry, literature, drama and all the rest. So, I believe both literature and functional writing is covered- so what's the problem?

Secondly, the lad in question can read about football or horoscopes at home. He doesn't need to come to a secondary school English lesson to learn how to do that.

In the case that people don't have reading and writing skills after primary school, I believe it is the fault of the primary school teacher. Taking Shakespeare off the Leaving Cert syllabus won't do a thing for kids who can't read and write after 8 years in school.

CDfm wrote: »

Im not saying a guy cant like these works. Im just saying I dont.I could never be enthused by it. Part of that is the drab storylines. I also cant get enthused by poets descibing flights of herons or woods in snow. But a dirty old greyhound dog winning a race might do it.

Im not saying the ordinary guy cant handle it or tackle it. Im just saying he may not want to and may prefer the car manual or a book about a greyhound or a footballer.

I have no problem with you liking those books as they are to your taste and as challenging and beautifully written as they are -to me they are headwrecking mush.

Its great that you like the stuff and have read all this great literature -and if its any concilation I dont like Eastenders either.I just cant get enthused.

That's fair enough if you don't like cerrtain writers, but you seem to basically arguing ''I don't like the Brontes / Dickens/ Shakespeare and I think Cecelia Aherne is better, therefore I think Aherne should be taught in schools instead''. This is not the basis for selecting texts for students to study nor should it be. It should not be about patronizing or pandering to students. It should be about challenging them and using more difficult literature to develop critical skills.

Cecelia Ahern - hack, PS, I hate you, you suck

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