Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1

MrJones1973 · 05-10-2014 6:43pm #1

Highjacking OP's post for ....

Mod Gentle Warning

OK folks, It looks like this is going to be 'The strike-thread', so for the proposes of civility I'd ask that we just try to keep the title in mind to focus the debate as a lot of 'kitchen sinks' are going to get thrown around.

We've done the circular blame game of young vs' old teachers to death on here so I think the time is appropriate to move on.

Also the circular argument of ASTI vs TUI/INTO.

Also management vs' teachers.

These can muddy the waters of the substantive issue of the proposed JCSA and the strike action.

As usual...

Read charter (there will be a test for the boldies).
Report stuff ... or use the ignore function for people who annoy you.
It's an open forum so think of it as an oppertunity to challenge and change some peoples' views.

MOD

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

acequion · 05-10-2014 7:37pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Are most voting? What way? No real talks have occurred with Minister because of ballot. JMB has suggested we go back to 2011 NCCA proposals-though their timing for this suggestion (during a ballot) is seen as poor.
Bottom line folks unless you are prepared to go out for a few strike days-you're screwed. That's my view-all that's being suggested so far is a few Temporary A posts to help bring it in. Jan also says "Its not about money"

Well she would say that,wouldn't she! In fairness to her,Ruari has left her in a very difficult,if not impossible, position.

In my school, our ASTI reps went all out to remind everybody about the importance of voting.If they would do that in every school there might be a higher than derisory turn out in those ballots. Obviously,I've voted Yes.I say "obviously" as I can see no other alternative than to face down the Government on this one. And personally,I am fully prepared to strike. I teach English and remain as opposed to this JCSA farce as ever.

endakenny · 05-10-2014 8:57pm

acequion wrote: »

Well she would say that,wouldn't she! In fairness to her,Ruari has left her in a very difficult,if not impossible, position.

In my school, our ASTI reps went all out to remind everybody about the importance of voting.If they would do that in every school there might be a higher than derisory turn out in those ballots. Obviously,I've voted Yes.I say "obviously" as I can see no other alternative than to face down the Government on this one. And personally,I am fully prepared to strike. I teach English and remain as opposed to this JCSA farce as ever.

In your opinion, why do so many ASTI members not vote in these ballots?

Apathy is understandable in elections and referenda on constitutional amendments because many people think that the result won't affect them. However, union ballots concern union members' working condition.

55% of ASTI members didn't vote in the original ballot on industrial action with regard to the JCSA. Presumably, they know what the JCSA will entail and thus won't mind assessing their students.

acequion · 05-10-2014 10:37pm

endakenny wrote: »

In your opinion, why do so many ASTI members not vote in these ballots?

Apathy is understandable in elections and referenda on constitutional amendments because many people think that the result won't affect them. However, union ballots concern union members' working condition.

55% of ASTI members didn't vote in the original ballot on industrial action with regard to the JCSA. Presumably, they know what the JCSA will entail and thus won't mind assessing their students.

God only knows why they won't vote,Enda. I suspect it's closer to the same apathy than people realise. And I very much doubt that they're ok about marking their own students. Apart from anything else, that entails a load of unpaid extra work. You'd be amazed at the amount of people that go around with their heads in the sand.

MrJones1973 · 06-10-2014 10:11am

I think a lot of members are tired of constant balloting and know they will be balloted until they give thev "right" answer but ultimately thats only a cop out. If you keep saying No-then it will stick but usually the leadership bullies the members helped by the media and members give in, but to be fair we were the last union standing last time.

endakenny · 06-10-2014 5:28pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think a lot of members are tired of constant balloting and know they will be balloted until they give thev "right" answer but ultimately thats only a cop out. If you keep saying No-then it will stick but usually the leadership bullies the members helped by the media and members give in, but to be fair we were the last union standing last time.

In your opinion, why was the ASTI leadership unwilling to continue industrial action against the HRA?

MrJones1973 · 06-10-2014 5:44pm

Lack of balls to put it plainly. I have talked to several guys in the Department and they have all said a one week strike would have got more. Not an unraveling of HRA but more, But your average teacher is spineless (sadly). If I was advising Jan-I would tell her to stick it to them (teachers) as they will roll over. As I say this a minority report forms in my head-Pat King is on side this time as are parents so perhaps this time? Im like an abused spouse who thinks the ASTI will change but really knows better.

endakenny · 06-10-2014 6:21pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Lack of balls to put it plainly.

Do you think that the industrial action that was taken by the ASTI in 2000 and 2001 has something to do with it? The union was seriously damaged because of it.

evolving_doors · 06-10-2014 6:49pm

endakenny wrote: »

Do you think that the industrial action that was taken by the ASTI in 2000 and 2001 has something to do with it? The union was seriously damaged because of it.

How were they damaged? I came to teaching after that ...

endakenny · 06-10-2014 6:53pm

Armelodie wrote: »

How were they damaged? I came to teaching after that ...

I read somewhere that ASTI membership decreased because of it. Why did ASTI members not accept back in 2000 that holding meetings outside school hours was a price worth paying for a pay-rise? Benchmarking posed no threat whatsoever to public-sector workers.

rainbowtrout · 06-10-2014 7:22pm

endakenny wrote: »

Do you think that the industrial action that was taken by the ASTI in 2000 and 2001 has something to do with it? The union was seriously damaged because of it.

I think it's more complex than that. There has been huge numbers retired from teaching since then. if you consider that second level education was made free in the late 60s if anyone went into teaching in the late 60s early 70s they retired in the last 6-7 years (assuming they did the full 40 years).

The vast majority of staff in my school are under 40. I'd say we have maybe 3 teachers over the age of 50. That's not going to be representative of all schools, but there was a huge drive in the last 10 years to get teachers to retire - teachers who were largely union members. Couple that with a booming economy 10 years ago where people could go from job to job and there were teaching jobs out there, new teachers didn't join unions. I know most of the part timers that started with me didn't join the union for the first few years, and it was only when things started getting messy and cuts started that people started really worrying about their jobs. On the other hand, I was made permanent at the start of my job, and joined the union. Both of my parents were in unions and were shop stewards in their time, experienced strikes, so that message was fairly hammered home before I ever started working. I'm not sure it was the same for the other staff I started with.

A lot of working conditions that are taken for granted: 40 hour week, overtime, breaks etc came about as a result of union action, but a lot of workers (not just teachers) forget that.

There are a number of people on my staff who didn't vote, some who like to go 'oh I don't understand any of that union stuff' and then sat there in September asking 'when are we getting our next increment?

evolving_doors · 06-10-2014 7:59pm

As regards the retirees I'd definitely agree with Rainbowtrout... Compared to 8 years ago about 80% of our school's cohort have retired. So talking about the past (2000-2001 even) seems like folklore to most.

In a way I wonder if the best strategy of implementing any organisational change is to incentivise retirement, it may cost a fortune in the short term but it leaves you open to catch all the newbies unaware while they are just finding their feet. Although I have to say that the meetings that our rep attends seem to know what's what.

I'm starting to side with PeterFlynt's notion that the JC assessment will be wrapped up with other 'sweeties' and 'treats' in a future HR2 negotiation. As an issue on its own it'll never get through (I hope!), but throw it in with the kitchen sink, like the last CP/HR then its a case of 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'. Such a pity.

endakenny · 06-10-2014 8:23pm

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm starting to side with PeterFlynt's notion that the JC assessment will be wrapped up with other 'sweeties' and 'treats' in a future HR2 negotiation. As an issue on its own it'll never get through (I hope!), but throw it in with the kitchen sink, like the last CP/HR then its a case of 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'. Such a pity.

So do you think that the JCSA, if it goes through, will lead to an exodus from the teaching profession, which has happened in England?

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-29416923

The union highlights comments from teachers who responded to the survey and stressed these were "classroom teachers and not union activists".

"There is no such thing as work-life balance in this profession. It's so sad - I want to love this job but sometimes it's really hard to know how to," said one.

"This isn't why I became a teacher. This isn't what I want for my family. It's not fair on the pupils, it's not fair on my wife or child and it's not fair on me," said another.

More than a third said they thought about quitting "fairly constantly", with a further 46% saying they considered it from time to time.

One in 10 was actively seeking another job but 10% said they never thought about leaving.

A Department for Education spokeswoman said the government recognised teachers' workload could be "unnecessarily high" with "needless bureaucracy" stopping them spending time teaching.

"The Secretary of State has already made clear to unions that we have a common interest in tackling this."

The spokeswoman said the government had already cut over 21,000 pages of guidance, streamlined the inspection process and made it clear formal written plans are not expected for every lesson.

Peter Flynt · 06-10-2014 10:07pm

Armelodie wrote: »

I'm starting to side with PeterFlynt's notion that the JC assessment will be wrapped up with other 'sweeties' and 'treats' in a future HR2 negotiation. As an issue on its own it'll never get through (I hope!), but throw it in with the kitchen sink, like the last CP/HR then its a case of 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'. Such a pity.

Well Arme. . .

We all saw what teachers signed up to when they were getting their pay cuts and terms and conditions of employed ripped to shreds.

Imagine what they'll sign up to if they are given a small amount of their own money back.

. . . and sure if they don't - It's time to ramp up the threats from the DES.

I could even imagine a "JCSA Allowance". . .Worth a Mars Bar a day where the JCSA will make you work, assess and grade.

acequion · 06-10-2014 10:07pm

endakenny wrote: »

So do you think that the JCSA, if it goes through, will lead to an exodus from the teaching profession, which has happened in England?

http://www.bbc.com/news/education-29416923

The trouble is that people can't go until they're ready financially. I'm in my early fifties and I have to hang in there until at least 60 as I just cannot afford to retire before that. It's all well and good saying people should quit if they're sick of it,but what are such people supposed to do? I've always enjoyed teaching and been good at it,but I really hate the way it's going and am obviously very concerned and apprehensive about the next ten years.

No consideration whatsoever has been given to teachers,either the young or the not so young.It's a sink or swim environment and I would strongly discourage young people from entering this rat race. Sad but true.:(

Peter Flynt · 06-10-2014 10:10pm

acequion wrote: »

The trouble is that people can't go until they're ready financially. I'm in my early fifties and I have to hang in there until at least 60 as I just cannot afford to retire before that. It's all well and good saying people should quit if they're sick of it,but what are such people supposed to do? I've always enjoyed teaching and been good at it,but I really hate the way it's going and am obviously very concerned and apprehensive about the next ten years.

No consideration whatsoever has been given to teachers,either the young or the not so young.It's a sink or swim environment and I would strongly discourage young people from entering this rat race. Sad but true.:(

The policy is simple - Make the profession unbearable for older teachers so that they are forced to retire early and so therefore are not paid a full pension.

Their yellow pack replacement will be more than delighted to work for 30K whilst doing a unpaid B post on the side.

endakenny · 06-10-2014 11:16pm

acequion wrote: »

The trouble is that people can't go until they're ready financially. I'm in my early fifties and I have to hang in there until at least 60 as I just cannot afford to retire before that. It's all well and good saying people should quit if they're sick of it,but what are such people supposed to do? I've always enjoyed teaching and been good at it,but I really hate the way it's going and am obviously very concerned and apprehensive about the next ten years.

No consideration whatsoever has been given to teachers,either the young or the not so young.It's a sink or swim environment and I would strongly discourage young people from entering this rat race. Sad but true.:(

What I meant was: could the JCSA lead to younger teachers leaving the profession after a few years, which is what has happened in England?

acequion · 06-10-2014 11:24pm

endakenny wrote: »

What I meant was: could the JCSA lead to younger teachers leaving the profession after a few years, which is what has happened in England?

If they have any sense,yes!

rainbowtrout · 06-10-2014 11:50pm

acequion wrote: »

The trouble is that people can't go until they're ready financially. I'm in my early fifties and I have to hang in there until at least 60 as I just cannot afford to retire before that. It's all well and good saying people should quit if they're sick of it,but what are such people supposed to do? I've always enjoyed teaching and been good at it,but I really hate the way it's going and am obviously very concerned and apprehensive about the next ten years.

No consideration whatsoever has been given to teachers,either the young or the not so young.It's a sink or swim environment and I would strongly discourage young people from entering this rat race. Sad but true.:(

I would say that's true to a large extent. Anyone over 50 that can't afford to go won't go, because starting off in a new job will more than likely mean a massive pay cut, assuming the vast majority of over 50 teachers are permanent and in the job 20+ years.

It's hard to give up the security of any job, but particularly a permanent public sector job if you have a mortgage, kids, roots in a certain part of the country.

rainbowtrout · 06-10-2014 11:56pm

endakenny wrote: »

What I meant was: could the JCSA lead to younger teachers leaving the profession after a few years, which is what has happened in England?

Yes, but not just JCSA. A combination of starting on a much lower salary than teachers starting a few years ago. Not being able to get a full time job will also be a huge factor. Look at the number of threads on here every week about the jobs situation in teaching. They are either of the "I'm thinking of doing the dip, are there any jobs in teaching?" or "I've done the dip and can't get a job, give up or emigrate?" type.

I don't think any sane individual who has third level qualifications but can only scrabble together a few hours here and there, but becaue of the nature of teaching and timetabling can't make themselves available to do part time work elsewhere, will just decide to bail out. Low hours = low wage, no job security and a whole heap of working coming with JCSA if it gets pushed through doesn't make it an attractive prospect.

The thing is for young NQTs, the majority won't have major ties such as a mortgage, kids etc to make them stay in the job and they won't have paid enough into a pension to consider sticking it out for the long haul. If they don't have stable, full time permanent jobs to go to, there isn't a major incentive to stay in the profession in the long term.

endakenny · 07-10-2014 12:03am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, but not just JCSA. A combination of starting on a much lower salary than teachers starting a few years ago. Not being able to get a full time job will also be a huge factor. Look at the number of threads on here every week about the jobs situation in teaching. They are either of the "I'm thinking of doing the dip, are there any jobs in teaching?" or "I've done the dip and can't get a job, give up or emigrate?" type.

I don't think any sane individual who has third level qualifications but can only scrabble together a few hours here and there, but becaue of the nature of teaching and timetabling can't make themselves available to do part time work elsewhere, will just decide to bail out. Low hours = low wage, no job security and a whole heap of working coming with JCSA if it gets pushed through doesn't make it an attractive prospect.

The thing is for young NQTs, the majority won't have major ties such as a mortgage, kids etc to make them stay in the job and they won't have paid enough into a pension to consider sticking it out for the long haul. If they don't have stable, full time permanent jobs to go to, there isn't a major incentive to stay in the profession in the long term.

If or when difficulty in teacher recruitment arises, how do you think the government will respond? Another benchmarking process?!

rainbowtrout · 07-10-2014 12:21am

endakenny wrote: »

If or when difficulty in teacher recruitment arises, how do you think the government will respond? Another benchmarking process?!

No idea. It won't happen overnight. The arse fell out of the economy 6 years ago and the economy had been slowing down for at least a year before that. I think you could go back and do a search of boards threads from 2008 and you'd still find threads saying 'just qualified, can't get a job'. It hasn't stopped people applying for teacher training or the PME.

I have no idea what the numbers are like applying for teaching jobs, or what the knock on effect of the two year PME will be but I don't see it slowing down overnight. Teachers who are in it long term will stay out of necessity. Teachers who are in it not so long (say less than 10 years, but have a CID) won't bail out just yet. It will take a few years for the JCSA to take full effect. I think it's supposed to be rolled out over 7 years. So depending on teachers subject combinations, some teachers may not feel the full effects of JSCA for 5-6 years yet. The first year for examination is 2017 for English.

Students going into college now to do a 3-4 year teacher training degree or those currently in college thinking of doing the dip in the next couple of year have no experience of this. Also if they enter the profession with JCSA in place they will have nothing to compare it to, they won't have worked in the current system. But it doesn't mean they'll stay in it once they get there. A lot of that will come down to job prospects initially and then the workload I suspect.

I remember doing my teaching practice and being sick to the back teeth of lugging my teaching practice folder around with me and writing lesson plans for every lesson, and schemes of work, and post lesson appraisals etc, and teachers in those schools commenting 'I haven't written a lesson plan since the dip 20 years ago'. For NQTs who generate this mountain of paperwork on teaching practice, for a while starting off in a new school it will just be more of the same. Can it be kept up in the long term? - based on the UK, probably not.

It's just my personal opinion, but I would say that we will only begin to see the major fallout of JCSA in about 10 years time, with teachers leaving the profession because of poor prospects and huge workload.

endakenny · 07-10-2014 5:01pm

ASTI has voted in favour of including strikes as part of industrial action.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1007/650696-asti-junior-cycle/

endakenny · 07-10-2014 6:16pm

Only 44% of members voted.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-threatens-one-day-strike-over-junior-cycle-reforms-1.1954871

MrJones1973 · 11-10-2014 9:07am

The turnout is disappointing but in a national election you hardly touch 64% and a vote is a vote. No matter how low-it stands.

endakenny · 11-11-2014 6:30pm

Talks have broken down.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1111/658522-teacher-talks/

man_no_plan · 11-11-2014 8:51pm

I'm not sure for how long though. I think this is a bit of Who's dick is biggest from everyone.

(irishtimes.com/news/education/junior-cycle-reform-talks-collapse-despite-compromise-offer-1.1996687) link there cant post one. According to the times the offer of state exams for 60% is on the table with 40% project work.

This was more or less the ncca proposal from 2011 as far as I can remember.

Now we do need posts to run the assessment and grading. We do need training and moderation, I would like to see payment but im not sure if this is even being mentions by the unions? But the new jc is coming I think whether we like it or not. ?

Maybe the time is right to look for a marking fee for the 40% project.

I'm a bit disappointed that the talks broke down in the first day though. I wonder what would the majority of teachers be happy with?

Would the 60% external marking and state cert be enough?

evolving_doors · 11-11-2014 9:23pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

I'm not sure for how long though. I think this is a bit of Who's dick is biggest from everyone.

(irishtimes.com/news/education/junior-cycle-reform-talks-collapse-despite-compromise-offer-1.1996687) link there cant post one. According to the times the offer of state exams for 60% is on the table with 40% project work.

This was more or less the ncca proposal from 2011 as far as I can remember.

Now we do need posts to run the assessment and grading. We do need training and moderation, I would like to see payment but im not sure if this is even being mentions by the unions? But the new jc is coming I think whether we like it or not. ?

Maybe the time is right to look for a marking fee for the 40% project.

I'm a bit disappointed that the talks broke down in the first day though. I wonder what would the majority of teachers be happy with?

Would the 60% external marking and state cert be enough?

For me it's either a principle or its not... once you start horse trading then the principle is lost... so then 'folks who know better' will say 'shur why dont the teachers correct the whole lot its only the flippin junior cert'...

Then its the whole 'monitoring of individual student targets/outcomes/key skills'.... bring on the paperwork (to be done at home in our own time I presume!) .

acequion · 12-11-2014 6:04pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

I'm not sure for how long though. I think this is a bit of Who's dick is biggest from everyone.

(irishtimes.com/news/education/junior-cycle-reform-talks-collapse-despite-compromise-offer-1.1996687) link there cant post one. According to the times the offer of state exams for 60% is on the table with 40% project work.

This was more or less the ncca proposal from 2011 as far as I can remember.

Now we do need posts to run the assessment and grading. We do need training and moderation, I would like to see payment but im not sure if this is even being mentions by the unions? But the new jc is coming I think whether we like it or not. ?

Maybe the time is right to look for a marking fee for the 40% project.

I'm a bit disappointed that the talks broke down in the first day though. I wonder what would the majority of teachers be happy with?

Would the 60% external marking and state cert be enough?

Why do you think the new JC is so inevitable? Look at it this way. The new JCSA,as they call it,is supposed to be up and running already in English for the present first years.Yet in most schools,English classes are no different to last year,same course,same book. The "phasing in" is supposed to continue with science next year,yet no body is attending any in services because of the union ban. In fact, nobody is even talking about it,it's business as usual in most schools. Even parents have stopped asking about it. We had our open day last Saturday and there wasn't as much as one question about the fabled JCSA. Even the DES are already trying to dilute Ruari's great plan by rowing back on the 100% school assessment.

So,from where I'm standing,it looks far from inevitable. If teachers would only grow a pair this time and if the union could be trusted to actually represent their members,for once,I would actually be optimistic that we could face down the Government on this one.

Inspector Coptoor · 12-11-2014 7:24pm

We should join the water strike in Dec 10th.

Shut the whole city down.

evolving_doors · 12-11-2014 7:46pm

I heard that because Jan has a new offer on the table we should have to ballot for strike again ! Is that usually the procedure?

Anyhow.. teachers dont need to grow a pair.... they just need to sit up straight and take an interest...

And vote.

MOD NOTE:

Merged Thread with old ASTI Ballot thread.

Starts Below

MrJones1973 · 13-11-2014 4:45pm

So it looks like we will have at least 1 day of strike action before end of month. What Are feelings in staff rooms about strike? New JC?
Personally, I think you allow 40% continuous assessment in the door then you can kiss the following goodbye

Professional standards-results will be 'adjusted' either through direct teacher tampering or grind teachers/parents
Having a life. There is hardly a department structure in place for subjects in secondary schools. There are no paid head of departments with authority. It will be chaos poured onto a creaking system.

I have fought and lost many battles last few years. Please not tis one..

Boober Fraggle · 13-11-2014 5:42pm

I have no problem with 40% continuous assessment, I don't see it as the problem at all. External assessment would be necessary though. It's done in enough subjects as it is, and I'm sure subject teachers would be able to come up with a viable option for continuous assessment in their own subjects, that could be assessed externally, languages and practicals are easy to organise, surely projects (that aren't just done by the teacher) can be assessed along with the exam in July.

I think we will be balloted again rather than a straight out strike action...

mirrorwall14 · 13-11-2014 5:49pm

I can't see us winning the PR battle on this. Funnily enough she has done exactly what I said they'd need to do to turn everyone against us. With 60% external assessment it looks like we're cribbing about extra work

gammy_knees · 13-11-2014 7:03pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I can't see us winning the PR battle on this. Funnily enough she has done exactly what I said they'd need to do to turn everyone against us. With 60% external assessment it looks like we're cribbing about extra work

There's nothing wrong with cribbing about extra work unpaid. I'm already doing an extra 43 hrs S & S unpaid this year plus a lot of other bull.
When did the profession become registered as a charity- I can't find the charity number!!

mirrorwall14 · 13-11-2014 7:06pm

Oh don't get me wrong, I completely agree!! All I'm saying is that when we were arguing that there should be a state set exam we had very clear goals that parents and even students would support. When it's 60% externally assessed its a tad tougher to win

MrJones1973 · 13-11-2014 7:33pm

The Education system is creaking. At best you will get a post or 2 per school. Do you really feel thats enough to do this? Continuous assessment is a bad idea-it does not matter how much or how little-a bad idea is a bad idea.

As for PR-get real. The media hates us-always will. The Parents association is funded by the Department. The JMB ditto. Parents wont want schools closed but the vast majority of parents wont turn against us because of strike action. Once you strike-you lose some support but you win disputes by pissing off your opposition (the Department). Sure Pat kenny will wet his pants and the fee paying brigade will get angry but thats what you want. Because they will harass their TDs to sort this. Exactly what else can they do to us that has not been done already?
If we keep rolling over-where does this end??
Grow a pair people-Industrial disputes are messy but for a group of people who stand up to much thuggery every day-are you really that spineless to be afraid of bad PR?

mirrorwall14 · 13-11-2014 7:47pm

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The Education system is creaking. At best you will get a post or 2 per school. Do you really feel thats enough to do this? Continuous assessment is a bad idea-it does not matter how much or how little-a bad idea is a bad idea.

As for PR-get real. The media hates us-always will. The Parents association is funded by the Department. The JMB ditto. Parents wont want schools closed but the vast majority of parents wont turn against us because of strike action. Once you strike-you lose some support but you win disputes by pissing off your opposition (the Department). Sure Pat kenny will wet his pants and the fee paying brigade will get angry but thats what you want. Because they will harass their TDs to sort this. Exactly what else can they do to us that has not been done already?
If we keep rolling over-where does this end??
Grow a pair people-Industrial disputes are messy but for a group of people who stand up to much thuggery every day-are you really that spineless to be afraid of bad PR?

And that's me out. I made what was a reasonable point about PR. I am not in favour of teacher corrected work or us doing extra work nor did I say so.

endakenny · 13-11-2014 8:01pm

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

I think we will be balloted again rather than a straight out strike action...

Why do you think that? The mandate for strikes is already there.

MrJones1973 · 13-11-2014 8:31pm

Sorry Mirror wall-comments were not addressed at you personally but teachers in general. I meant no offence. The Point about PR needed to be refuted . But for that to happen it had to be mentioned.

evolving_doors · 13-11-2014 9:42pm

I'm one of the 'to hell with public perception' brigade lately. the last lunchtime protest was a real insult to teachers.

The ONLY way anyone will take any notice and listen to the issues is to discommode the parents. Otherwise we just get the same old media jibes which last for about 5 minutes before the adds.... if parents have to think about education (rather than a babysitting service) maybe someone in the media will actually sit up and engage with the issue properly rather than the 'teachers creaming it post recession' line.

When is this continuous assessment going to be done....? During school hours!!
It's quite simple, we will be expected to do this at home between corrections and setting exams (and further study we undertake of our own volition)...

Or maybe the alternative is quite simple.. do the work during June and the mid term breaks ! What about some schools where there is a noticable split between Junior Cert and Leaving Cert teachers. How is that equitable if half the school are in/at home correcting while the other are enjoying their holidays?

Yet again the profession will be split.

A few of us were discussing the work to rule/strikes of 2000, (I wasn;t in the profession myself at the time) their were some with a real bitter taste in their mouth towards the Union. It was all fine and dandy, but then the teaching had to resume and the teachers had to catch up on the work for the exams. The vile being sputed against teachers was pretty palpable at the time.
Then again though... teachers got the pay rise because of the action!!! And at the end of the day students got through their exams as they always do.
Of course it was done via paying for S&S... and look where that has got us now trying to untangle it.
(We need to be very careful of how concessions are awarded, if we get a few concessions by way of linking it to x,y,z we could see ourselves trying to undo it down the road again.)

And what concessions are there on the table for all this extra work BTW?

Sure, I'll come in during the summer, but you gotta pay me for it! otherwise, why the hell am I voting for more work. Just because someone else thinks it's good for someone else's kids based on some 'research' done in a different country with different systems?

MrJones1973 · 13-11-2014 9:43pm

Armelodie wrote: »

I heard that because Jan has a new offer on the table we should have to ballot for strike again ! Is that usually the procedure?

Anyhow.. teachers dont need to grow a pair.... they just need to sit up straight and take an interest...

And vote.

No re balloting. We just had a ballot. Im sure some will argue this constitutes a new offer. But there have been no resources put on table so we have not yet seen full hand. Ballots cost tens of thousands-let Jan show her full hand and then you can put it to a new ballot. But you can offer me a night with ten super models-I will still say no no and no because the misery and fecking around with results that will ensue wont be worth the pleasure! Jokes aside-a few posts will all that will be offered.

2011abc · 13-11-2014 10:07pm

Armelodie wrote: »

It's quite simple, we will be expected to do this at home between corrections and setting exams (and further study we undertake of our own volition)...

Enjoy your last 'proper' (back on Aug23...?)Summer Hols next year guys .It will be COMPULSORY PAID (BY US!) CPD after that and JCSA corrections the following year ...Or maybe some of us will finally learn to say "No!"

endakenny · 13-11-2014 10:11pm

Armelodie wrote: »

Or maybe the alternative is quite simple.. do the work during June and the mid term breaks ! What about some schools where there is a noticable split between Junior Cert and Leaving Cert teachers. How is that equitable if half the school are in/at home correcting while the other are enjoying their holidays?

When I was a pupil, most of the teachers taught Junior Cycle and Senior Cycle classes.

Armelodie wrote: »

A few of us were discussing the work to rule/strikes of 2000, (I wasn;t in the profession myself at the time) their were some with a real bitter taste in their mouth towards the Union. It was all fine and dandy, but then the teaching had to resume and the teachers had to catch up on the work for the exams. The vile being sputed against teachers was pretty palpable at the time.
Then again though... teachers got the pay rise because of the action!!! And at the end of the day students got through their exams as they always do.
Of course it was done via paying for S&S... and look where that has got us now trying to untangle it.

The teachers always were going to get a pay rise under the benchmarking process in return for holding staff meetings and parent-teacher meetings outside school hours.

In fairness, S&S are hardly stressful tasks. If teachers have to supervise during the 11 a.m. break or lunchtime, then they can have their tea break or lunch during a class period in which they do not have a class.

Surely, it's better to have teachers doing S&S because they are better trained to deal with situations involving pupils than external people are.

amacca · 13-11-2014 10:36pm

endakenny wrote: »

In fairness, S&S are hardly stressful tasks. If teachers have to supervise during the 11 a.m. break or lunchtime, then they can have their tea break or lunch during a class period in which they do not have a class.

How would you know if its stressful or not? Have you done it?

I'd agree that sometimes, S&S on its own may not be stressful, but context is everything…there are also times when it can be very stressful - try and prevent or break up a fight, take all other kinds of sh1t and have to spend ages of your own time disciplining/chasing up the students in question etc, ultimately contacting parents that sometimes don't give a sh1t etc etc….when it was possible to opt out of it I heard many people that could did…..the money that was being paid wasn't worth the hassle……the reason they set the criteria so only small numbers could leave was they feared an exodus Imo

It is also stressful on that day when you have full classes (some of them/or many of them with their own problems) every single period and your only break goes as does a portion of your lunch - you find yourself rushing from billy to jack and fcuking back again……….or the day every one of your so called "free periods" (which in the past were used mostly by myself to correct or prepare for other classes) has been gobbled up by croke park supervisions…probably discretionary cp hours in meetings now, + necessary "voluntary" stuff etc…there were lots of days I found myself frazzled…not getting a proper lunch…..

Whether people like it or not teaching is a very high stress job and increasingly so given the way things are going …..yet for some reason it seems to continue to be a game of buckaroo (lets see if we can keep loading the donkeys up - without providing the proper framework, environment or resources for them to take the load - and some of the load isn't even necessary to improve student outcomes)…I hope the majority of teachers see sense and dig their heels in for the sake of the profession long term….so the job can be sustainable for people….its not the same type of job as most office jobs…its full on pressure, pressure, pressure…if you think about it you are giving a presentation and so much more to an audience up to 30 or more containing some members that don't want to be there with very little at your disposal to really enforce proper discipline given everyones right to education but ultimately very little bottom line when it comes to enforcing their responsibilities to avail of it or not disrupt others trying to get it….you are doing this up to 9 times a day 5 days a week + the preparation and correcting + voluntary and i don't care i think nearly everyone ends up either doing or being unfairly pressured into doing extra on top of the extra they have to do to keep their classes ticking over…

and then at the end of the day someone who went to school at sometime says something along the lines of "sure thats not much to ask- just that little bit extra" …………oh and by the way we won't try and put ourselves in your shoes or engage with any of the real issues or solve no even think about any of the difficult situations that might arise or pressure government for the right things like provide a proper environment, resources, a proper disciplinary framework with fair speedy and effective consequences/rehabilitation or legal framework to work towards them etc…..no woe betide, its the lazy moany teachers fault…it always is.

Moody_mona · 13-11-2014 10:46pm

endakenny wrote: »

When I was a pupil, most of the teachers taught Junior Cycle and Senior Cycle classes.
In fairness, S&S are hardly stressful tasks. If teachers have to supervise during the 11 a.m. break or lunchtime, then they can have their tea break or lunch during a class period in which they do not have a class.

That is entirely dependent on the school climate.

If teachers just had to supervise a break or lunch time you probably would hear a peep; there's more to it than that.

Chilli Con Kearney · 13-11-2014 10:49pm

endakenny wrote: »

In fairness, S&S are hardly stressful tasks. If teachers have to supervise during the 11 a.m. break or lunchtime, then they can have their tea break or lunch during a class period in which they do not have a class.

Have you done S&S? In what type of school? Sometimes it's crowd control when a teacher is out. No work left, no homework for students because it's first class Monday morning. It's a subject you've never taught before so can't bring them on yourself.

In schools with poor discipline and weak structures, it can be like a jungle. Now that could be stressful, even a little, I think you might agree.

evolving_doors · 13-11-2014 10:53pm

endakenny wrote: »

When I was a pupil, most of the teachers taught Junior Cycle and Senior Cycle classes.

Fair enough, and yes, the exam class allocations do come in swings and roundabouts... but either way you look at it, it won't be fair across the board all of the time. For instance I know of 1 language teacher who always has leaving and junior cert classes (as she's the only teacher) so straight away she's at a disadvantage compared to her colleagues who get the exam year every 2-3 years (Plus she corrected for the SEC Leaving Cert... and I know a lot of teachers are packing that in as they have had enough 'free time' taken from them already).

endakenny wrote: »

The teachers always were going to get a pay rise under the benchmarking process in return for holding staff meetings and parent-teacher meetings outside school hours.

To my knowledge it was a concession on the part of the teachers to do these first... and then the pay rise was granted.. they weren't 'always' going to get it. And if they were 'always' going to get it then what was the strike/work to rule about?

endakenny wrote: »

In fairness, S&S are hardly stressful tasks.

It's the stress that results from having to waylay work... not the actual stress of having to supervise the class. (Although in some schools I would imagine that there are certain classes that are stressful having to do battle with after the Nth time that week).

Also, if you are supposed to be preparing for your own classes and you get called to do the SnS when do you fit in the time to do 'your' job?

At home... during the weekends ?

Some of my 'home' time is already taken for prep. work anyway... why should I even be expected to be working at home in the first place?

And this is the crux of the matter... once you concede to work for free then you are walked all over. Because it is expected of teachers to work from home unpaid, thus it is also expected that they will do MORE unpaid work at home. (And I know, some teachers can swing it so that they never do a tap at home and good luck to them... it's just I've never met them in my own experience).

endakenny wrote: »

If teachers have to supervise during the 11 a.m. break or lunchtime, then they can have their tea break or lunch during a class period in which they do not have a class.

See above point...

and this is what I see... teachers no longer able to sit and talk to each other over lunch because they are working at lunch time.. and when they do get time to eat between classes, what I see them doing is eating and working at the same time. Or being asked to have a meeting during lunch time whilst trying to eat, when did this become acceptable?

endakenny wrote: »

Surely, it's better to have teachers doing S&S because they are better trained to deal with situations involving pupils than external people are.

The 'external people' you speak of used to be newly qualified teachers or else someone on low hours in the school was offered it. The difference is that they were 'paid' for the work that they did.

eyescreamcone · 13-11-2014 11:00pm

I'm not a teacher
In my humble opinion it doesn't matter who corrects 3rd year exams. As a taxpayer I'd go with the cheaper option.

If teachers strike - let them. Every day on strike puts more money in the state coffers.

endakenny · 13-11-2014 11:07pm

Armelodie wrote: »

Or being asked to have a meeting during lunch time whilst trying to eat, when did this become acceptable?

The CPA and the HRA didn't say that teacher had to hold meetings at lunchtime. If a teacher is being asked, as opposed to being told, to go to a lunchtime meeting then the teacher can say No. After all, there are health and safety issues associated with depriving a worker of time for eating.

endakenny · 13-11-2014 11:11pm

Armelodie wrote: »

To my knowledge it was a concession on the part of the teachers to do these first... and then the pay rise was granted.. they weren't 'always' going to get it.

Was it not guaranteed that you'd get the pay rise once you started having those meetings outside school hours? The INTO and the TUI trusted that they would get the money once they had started having the meetings outsides school hours. Why was the ASTI not willing to do the same?

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Strike On ! Proposed New Junior Cert See Mod Warning Post #1