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School patronage

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Comments

  • #1402
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Responding to the issues raised Layla de Cogan Chin of the Department of Justice, said there was no obstacle to the establishment of non-denominational schools
    My understanding of the situation is that the Dept of Education thought there was possibly a constitutional impediment, and that is why some schools which you might think were "non-denominational" end up being "multi-denominational" instead. The difference being that a multi-denominational school "should" impart some religious morality into the kids, even if its not only the morality from just one particular religion, whereas the non-denom kind would not be under any such obligation.
    Article 42

    2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

    5. In exceptional cases, where the parents for physical or moral reasons fail in their duty towards their children, the State as guardian of the common good, by appropriate means shall endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.
    It kind of depends on your interpretation of the word "moral". Morality is often used in a religious context, and ethics in a secular context.

    I'm not sure whether Layla de Cogan Chin of the Department of Justice is actually giving the green light now for the establishment of "non-denominational" schools, or whether this is just the throwaway remark of someone who hasn't really looked into it. Maybe a bit of communication between the Dept of Education and the Dept.of Justice would be in order.


  • #1403
    u01nk5
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭u01nk5


    I'm 30. When i have children will i have to baptise them to guarantee getting them into the local school?


  • #1404
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,985 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    The UN yet another platform for the government to be insultingly dismissive, whats the point.


  • #1405
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    recedite wrote: »
    My understanding of the situation is that the Dept of Education thought there was possibly a constitutional impediment, and that is why some schools which you might think were "non-denominational" end up being "multi-denominational" instead.

    What's the nature of the possible constitutional issue? The whole present "denominational" thing seems to largely be an artefact of the Rules for National Schools document, whose legal status seems to be no more than a glorified departmental circular.


  • #1406
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    u01nk5 wrote: »
    I'm 30. When i have children will i have to baptise them to guarantee getting them into the local school?
    I'd recommend that you do. There are certainly some primary schools, perhaps a lot of them, who will push kids without baptism certificates to the back of the queue.


  • #1407
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,854 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Easy to claim faith schools get the best results when they discriminate heavily on the admissions :rolleyes:

    London Oratory cherrypicks privileged white pupils, says watchdog
    The Roman Catholic state school attended by Nick Clegg's son, which also educated two of Tony Blair's children, uses a complex, faith-based entry system to cherrypick, in effect, a pupil population that is disproportionately privileged and white, according to a damning report by the schools admissions watchdog.

    In a ruling described by campaigners as the most robust ever released by the Office of the Schools Adjudicator (OSA), the London Oratory school was found to have broken 105 aspects of the school admissions code over two years: 63 instances involving students entering in September 2013 and 42 connected to this year's cohort.

    Among the breaches, the report found, was that the school had a notably lower proportion of pupils from non-white or deprived backgrounds compared not only with its local community, in Fulham, west London, but with many other Catholic state secondary schools in the capital.

    The school wrongly set complex religious requirements, such as parents needing to provide original baptism certificates for the child and both parents, and needing to give details that could reveal, for example, whether they were married.

    "I do not believe that the school can claim that its ethnic composition is even representative of that of the Catholic children attending schools in the part of London in which it is located," said adjudicator Bryan Slater. He added: "From the evidence I have seen there is good reason to believe that the admission arrangements the school uses have the effect of acting to produce at the very least a degree of social selection."

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1408
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    SW wrote: »
    Easy to claim faith schools get the best results when they discriminate heavily on the admissions :rolleyes:

    London Oratory cherrypicks privileged white pupils, says watchdog

    Can't say I'm surprised, people are hardly stupid enough to think its God giving them better results.


  • #1409
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    What's the nature of the possible constitutional issue?
    "A certain minimum moral education" as quoted above.
    Some would say an education can't be moral or complete without a "religious values"component. Most likely that was the original thinking anyway, when the document was drawn up between Dev and Archbishop Mc Quaid.


  • #1410
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    recedite wrote: »
    "A certain minimum moral education" as quoted above.
    Some would say an education can't be moral or complete without a "religious values"component. Most likely that was the original thinking anyway, when the document was drawn up between Dev and Archbishop Mc Quaid.

    That's different from denominational instruction, surely. Especially as it's specified as a minimum, not as an a la carte "at the whim of the parents". (I know there's separate "due regard" wording.) Apparently monodenominational schools are compatible with the constitution -- and it's an interesting question, because unlike various other carbuncles, they can't be "grandfathered in" to the constitution (as some other provisions that seem expressly contrary to it are supposed to be). So why wouldn't a "monosecular" one be?

    It's all moot if there's no political will to try, mind you.


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  • #1411
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    alaimacerc wrote: »
    That's different from denominational instruction, surely.

    See this discussion re a 1998 case.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=91276047
    Where there are different interpretations possible, supreme court judges tend not to go for the most liberal one. Judges are all appointed by the govt. of their day, so are mostly FF and FG appointed.
    alaimacerc wrote: »
    So why wouldn't a "monosecular" one be?
    No morality, allegedly. (assuming god and religion are the source of morality)


  • #1412
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,985 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    presuambly theres no demand because they never asked and from memory the surveys last year only offerred multi-dom schools such as ET or VEC

    don't ask and theres no demand


  • #1413
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,477 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robindch wrote: »
    I'd recommend that you do.

    Wait, what?

    Scrap the cap!



  • #1414
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,477 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Interesting report:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/unpublished-report-queries-viability-of-small-schools-1.1867544

    Balkanised school system split along gender and religious lines = more principals so no wonder the unions aren't demanding change. The interests of taxpayers in general and parents in particular don't matter.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #1415
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    SW wrote: »
    Easy to claim faith schools get the best results when they discriminate heavily on the admissions :rolleyes:

    London Oratory cherrypicks privileged white pupils, says watchdog

    Irritatingly this school received a similar report last year. They did not improve but actually got worse. Not sure this will do anything.

    Chris


  • #1416
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    The Irish Times today gives Ruairi Quinn a B for his work on pluralism, yet says "Still, only two of the state’s 3,169 primary schools have changed patronage since the process began: just one Protestant school and one Catholic school. Hardly a revolution."

    To me that is an epic fail. He was a complete waste of time.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ruairi-quinn-report-card-b-for-pluralism-but-d-for-higher-education-reform-1.1852926?page=2


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  • #1417
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Banbh wrote: »
    The Irish Times today gives Ruairi Quinn a B for his work on pluralism, yet says "Still, only two of the state’s 3,169 primary schools have changed patronage since the process began: just one Protestant school and one Catholic school. Hardly a revolution."

    To me that is an epic fail. He was a complete waste of time.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/ruairi-quinn-report-card-b-for-pluralism-but-d-for-higher-education-reform-1.1852926?page=2

    How many schools changed patronage in the 10-15 years before him?


  • #1418
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Cabaal wrote: »
    How many schools changed patronage in the 10-15 years before him?

    A) changing 0.06% of schools is still epic fail even if it is two more schools than done previously.
    B) Changing patronage does nothing towards the proper goal of establishing an openly acknowleged state-run school system (instead of the current system where the state de facto runs the schools and provides all the funding yet defers to the religious at every hands turn) which is based on a secular system of education. To become a school patron in Ireland one must have a religious agenda in education. That is no improvement.

    Ruari Quinn, history will see him as long on mealy-mouthed hand wringing (to appeal to his constituents) but short on actions to improve the situation (because in reality he is as conservative and as tied to the idea of "holy catholic Ireland" as the next pol).


  • #1419
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Banbh wrote: »
    To me that is an epic fail. He was a complete waste of time.
    I think it's too soon to say. He did succeed in establishing the principle that schools could change and that's no mean achievement. If, in the next ten-20 years, they remain the only ones, then yes, I think it would be fair to say that he'd failed. But until then, I think it's too soon to judge.


  • #1420
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    I think it's too soon to say. He did succeed in establishing the principle that schools could change and that's no mean achievement. If, in the next ten-20 years, they remain the only ones, then yes, I think it would be fair to say that he'd failed. But until then, I think it's too soon to judge.
    Okay in 20 years time I'll post a response.


  • #1421
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Banbh wrote: »
    Okay in 20 years time I'll post a response.
    I'd expect nothing less ;)


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  • #1422
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Ruairi could have done far more than he did. The state mandate the curriculum and pay the bills so the biggest and probably easiest change away from religion could (and still can) be made without any faffing about with surveys on patronage and uniforms. He was a fan of the sound bites.


    If the government really want to do something in relation to religion in school then the following could be easily mandated and implemented
    1. Reduction of the time allocated to religion in school
    2. A compulsory broad ranging, multi- denominational religious syllabus including atheism put in place (similar to the current junior cert but without the options for heavy emphasis on Catholicism)
    3. A mandatory policy whereby religious instruction such as confirmation/communion is permitted to be facilitated in the school but not as part of the hours of the school day. E.g. Schools are permitted to run an extra hour at the end of the day but not to take that hour out of the teaching time.
    4. (This may be done already?!) The removal of the allowance for schools to discriminate on religious grounds in admittance policies

    All of this, particularly the first two would be broadly welcomed by Catholics and other religious/atheism as taking a huge step towards tolerance and away from religious indoctrination. Allowing the classes to be added to the end of the school day would mean parents aren't being asked to drag children to other events to prepare them for communion etc (whether they should have to make the effort is another debate entirely!). The church may not particularly like it but I think they would lose the PR battle in the end. While I am Roman Catholic I want my children to understand that all belief systems including none is completely permissible. I still regret that my own schooling taught me literally nothing about the other main world religions


  • #1423
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    robindch wrote: »
    I think it's too soon to say. He did succeed in establishing the principle that schools could change and that's no mean achievement. If, in the next ten-20 years, they remain the only ones, then yes, I think it would be fair to say that he'd failed. But until then, I think it's too soon to judge.

    I think that, too, is harsh in it's own way. Call me an unreconstructed gradualist if you will, but surely the yardstick is "did you do better than what went before?" RQ has... if barely. Let's give him a Gentleman's C (or whatever that is in today's money). If those that come after don't do at least as much, that's their failure, not his.

    Yes, he could have done more to achieve actual change during his own tenure. Yes, he could have done more to copperfasten future such. But to lambast him on those grounds is surely to forget that doing nothing at all for a Dáil term is still an available political option -- and the most likely one, for any given FF or FG incumbent. Not to mention the "regress hugely" option -- who was it that was responsible for the present Rules for National Schools? That's not merely "grandfathered in" from the beginning of the state, that's active political choice to tack in the monocultural and theocratic direction.


  • #1424
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    So a well-deserved Ministerial pension. For doing 'better than what went before...if barely'.


  • #1425
    alaimacerc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,224 ✭✭✭alaimacerc


    Banbh wrote: »
    So a well-deserved Ministerial pension. For doing 'better than what went before...if barely'.

    Well, "actual value for money" is a different matter. A salary and a pension would have been paid anyway, so that's something of a "fixed cost", politically speaking.


  • #1426
    mikhail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Ruairi could have done far more than he did. The state mandate the curriculum ...
    At second level. I think primary schools set their own curriculum. Anyone know better?


  • #1427
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    It came in in 1999

    ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Early_Childhood_and_Primary_Education/Primary_School_Curriculum/Primary_School_Curriculum_Documents/

    In addition there are recommended guidelines for teaching time though they are not currently compulsory

    into.ie/ROI/InformationforMedia/InformationforJournalists/TimeSpentonEachSubject.pdf


    As far as I'm aware the syllabus and teaching allocation times are examined as part of the inspection of schools. I see no reason why a circular cannot be issued making the time allocations compulsory and a multi denominational syllabus introduced. To be honest it's a very odd absence when you look at all the other syllabi!

    Sorry I'm not allowed post the full link yet


  • #1428
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    One small but important change that Jan or any Minister could make today would be to give the Board of Management control over recruitment of new teachers, instead of the Patron/Chairperson. At primary level today, the Patron/Chairperson controls recruitment - selecting the interview panel and setting the criteria. The Board of Management has literally a rubber-stamping role set out in the Departmental guidelines. They can only overrule the selection panel if they have information not known to the selection panel.

    And yet, the Board is legally the employer. If the Minister expects Boards to actually lead, it has to give them control.


  • #1429
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    It came in in 1999

    ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Early_Childhood_and_Primary_Education/Primary_School_Curriculum/Primary_School_Curriculum_Documents/

    In addition there are recommended guidelines for teaching time though they are not currently compulsory

    into.ie/ROI/InformationforMedia/InformationforJournalists/TimeSpentonEachSubject.pdf


    As far as I'm aware the syllabus and teaching allocation times are examined as part of the inspection of schools. I see no reason why a circular cannot be issued making the time allocations compulsory and a multi denominational syllabus introduced. To be honest it's a very odd absence when you look at all the other syllabi!

    Sorry I'm not allowed post the full link yet


    Links for anybody interested:
    http://ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Early_Childhood_and_Primary_Education/Primary_School_Curriculum/Primary_School_Curriculum_Documents/

    http://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforMedia/InformationforJournalists/TimeSpentonEachSubject.pdf


  • #1430
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,854 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    :mad:

    https://twitter.com/fionnkidney/status/501048115101970432

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1431
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,985 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Families outraged over lack of bus to Educate Together secondary schoo
    l Up to 15 families from Dublin, Meath and Louth claim they are eligible for a free bus service to Ballymakenny College, a new school, run jointly by Educate Together and the Louth Meath Education and Training Board.

    The families say they are entitled to transport on the grounds that they are continuing their children's education in an Educate Together school, and its ethos is important to them.
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/families-outraged-over-lack-of-bus-to-educate-together-secondary-school-30543360.html#sthash.O4XyhYzX.dpuf

    Nash aims to solve school bus row
    The Department of Education initially refused to sanction a bus for all children on the basis that many of the children live closer to a VEC secondary school. 'This decision is patently wrong and ignores the unique ethos of Educate Together. I have spoken to my Ministerial colleagues and I understand that the Department of Education officials are to review their policy,' the minister stated. - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/nash-aims-to-solve-school-bus-row-30540447.html#sthash.bhHbYEO8.dpuf
    - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/nash-aims-to-solve-school-bus-row-30540447.html#sthash.bhHbYEO8.dpuf

    be interesting to see how this turns out.


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  • #1432
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    The Department of Education's attitude to all such matters is: if they don't want a decent, Irish, Catholic education they can go back to Russia or England or wherever it is they came from.


  • #1433
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Banbh wrote: »
    The Department of Education's attitude to all such matters is: if they don't want a decent, Irish, Catholic education they can go back to Russia or England or wherever it is they came from.

    Or they think a VEC is the same as any other et school and quit your moaning.


  • #1434
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I had some experience in a similar situation where kids attending a VEC school were deemed ineligible for places on the bus because they were not attending a RC school was was slightly closer (about 1km in the difference) to where they lived.

    So the decision is made by the bus company, based on the Dept of Ed rule which state that transport should be to "the nearest school having regard to ethos and language".

    However the current departmental interpretation of this rule is that for the purposes of this word "ethos" there are only three basic categories of school; Normal school, Gaelscoil, and Protestant School.

    The School Transport Appeals Board rejected an appeal re the VEC school kids last year saying
    STAB wrote:
    "In relation to school transport provision, ethos relates to religious ethos and is in the context of provision for minority religions"
    This second part (the context) the appeals board have just pulled out of their ass, but what can you do when up against this kind of attitude? An appeal is the end of the road. In the event, the kids were allowed onto the existing bus route to the VEC school on a temporary "concessionary" basis. Probably only because they had kicked up a fuss. So an Irish solution to an Irish problem then.

    I can see the problem for Dept of Ed and the Bus companies though. As more and more patrons emerge, each with a different ethos, more and more buses would have to be called into service, all going in different directions. Thence lies madness.

    Compare to the situation in the USA. State schools are secular. State provides buses to the schools. Kids get on the bus at the nearest point to their house. Simple.


  • #1435
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    There's far too much pointless duplication of services in primary and secondary school, gender, ethos, language and traditional school location. I was travelling around west Kerry this summer and passed loads of tiny schools in the arse end of nowhere. There should be a fully state funded secular coed primary and secondary school for X head of population and let those who don't like it set up and fund their own privately funded schools.


  • #1436
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Actually the rural ones aren't the issue as they've got to provide coverage in low density areas too.

    The most shocking bit is the number or schools duplicated in cities and towns.

    It's also divided by gender too in a lot of cases.

    Each duplication is another set of management and building overheads pulling resources out that could fund smaller class sizes, rural schools, SNAs, sports facilities, science and art facilities, psychological supports etc.


    You can't do these things logically in Ireland though. The vested interests aka Social Partners all need to get involved and extract maximum jobs for the boys and girls while ensuring their agenda gets imposed on the population too.


  • #1437
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    On a half hour drive I counted three small primary schools in one area in rural Kerry. There's no need to have three small schools within one half hour drive. Although where I live in Dublin there's also far too many schools, all fiercely protective of their own patch.


  • #1438
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    It's Ireland... We're loaded and can afford it.

    Oh wait...


  • #1439
    Banbh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Schools are supposedly there for the children of an area. When we used to be citizens of a country - before we became consumers and customers of an economy - the schools were built in communities wherever that community might be.

    Now the argument is to build mega-schools in the five centres of most economic advantage in the country and ship the units-of-learning in regardless of distance or stress.


  • #1440
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,477 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Schools are supposedly there for the children of an area, but over 90% of them are really only there for children of parents willing to tolerate RC indoctrination.

    You can't say that schools cater to a community if those schools indoctrinate and discriminate.

    Scrap the cap!



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  • #1441
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Banbh wrote: »
    Now the argument is to build mega-schools in the five centres of most economic advantage in the country and ship the units-of-learning in regardless of distance or stress.

    No it isn't.
    The only argument being made is not to have duplicated state funded public resources that are prioritising people based on religious persuasion or gender

    Merging some urban schools and where schools are duplicated in rural areas would mean more resources for rural education, not less.

    Its a zero sum equation.

    If you want 3, 4 and 5 different flavours of school in the same place then you'll have resources being used up on admin overheads and principals salleries that could have gone into something more useful like a rural school in an area that actually needs one.

    Much of the duplication actually occurs most dramatically in the major centres of population.

    Rural schools should be better organised though to provide maximum benifit per € spent and to ensure every community gets a fair level of access.

    That's absolutely not the case now. It's all about what religious sponsors wanted in the past and the legacy of those decisons.


  • #1442
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    If the choice is between five mega schools and hundreds of discriminatory schools I'd pick the five mega schools.


  • #1443
    inocybe
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭inocybe


    Well I'm outraged over the lack of any educate together secondary school in my part of the country. And I'm in the same situation regarding buses, except my choice is to send my child to a less Catholic school than my local 'very' Catholic school. The only way to get exempt from the 'nearest school' rule seems to be becoming Protestant.
    Even educate together wouldn't be my choice in ethos, I'd like a totally secular school system.
    Oh, and without stupid crested uniforms. That would be my choice :mad:


    LOL
    "I'm devastated, we picked the school for its ethos, religion and iPads, it's an exciting time for my daughter but our happiness it's clouded by this problem," - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/families-outraged-over-lack-of-bus-to-educate-together-secondary-school-30543360.html#sthash.O4XyhYzX.LTWwxc8n.dpuf


  • #1444
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Technology seems an eminently reasonable criteria for choosing a school. I'm not enthralled by heavy schoolbags and chalk and talk approaches.


  • #1445
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    inocybe wrote: »
    my choice is to send my child to a less Catholic school than my local 'very' Catholic school. The only way to get exempt from the 'nearest school' rule seems to be becoming Protestant.
    Even educate together wouldn't be my choice in ethos, I'd like a totally secular school system..
    Part of the problem is that most schools nowadays self-categorise themselves as "multi-denominational" even those with a religious ethos. Only the minority who have no tolerance for pupils of other beliefs call themselves "denominational".
    If ET re-categorised themselves as non-denominational it would IMO make it easier to argue the case that their ethos is sufficiently "different".

    IMO all pupils should have access and transport to their nearest non-discriminatory and non-denominational public school as the default position. If they want to be choosy, and go to a school with a denominational ethos, or a private school, fine, but let them pay for and organise the logistics privately.
    That would be an ideal situation. But as we currently have no "non-denominational" public schools at all, there is a long way to go.


  • #1446
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    lazygal wrote: »
    On a half hour drive I counted three small primary schools in one area in rural Kerry. There's no need to have three small schools within one half hour drive. Although where I live in Dublin there's also far too many schools, all fiercely protective of their own patch.

    And I bet you weren't looking that hard. In my own parish we have three, Nicker (my alma mater), Barna and Garrydoolis. There are also three outside the parish which usually have at least one child attending from the parish, Oola, Tineterrife and Cloverfield. This is all within a five (circa) mile radius of the village of New Pallas.


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  • #1447
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,985 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Lack of paperwork hindering school divestment programme http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/lack-of-paperwork-hindering-school-divestment-programme-1.1913318 IT
    In the case of Newtownwhite NS, he said the Church of Ireland Bishop of Tuam, Killala and Achonry, Dr Patrick Rooke, was “very positive” and facilitory about the change, but “when it came to having the lease for the buildings transferred to the State, it turns out they were vested in a trust”, the three members of which had died in the 1930s.
    Mr Rowe said this sort of scenario created considerable legal and consultancy costs, and Educate Together calculated that each school opening was costing it about €100,000 in professional hours.


  • #1448
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    A former-COI school goes multidemon in Mayo. Only 3,200 to go!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/church-of-ireland-school-in-mayo-goes-multidenominational-1.1914683
    Irish Times wrote:
    A 108-year-old former Church of Ireland school became multidenominational yesterday. Newtownwhite Educate Together National School (ETNS), which is near the estuary of the river Moy at Ballysokeery, Ballina, is the first Educate Together primary school in Co Mayo. It has 20 pupils.

    Until last June, it was a Church of Ireland school under the patronage of the Bishop of Tuam, Killala and Achonry. Newtownwhite ETNS, which was officially opened yesterday by Taoiseach Enda Kenny is one of four new multidenominational schools to open this month. School principal Catherine Boland thanked the Church of Ireland clergy who facilitated the establishment of Educate Together in Co Mayo through the donation of the Newtownwhite school building.

    Chief executive of Educate Together Paul Rowe told the large gathering that the children starting school yesterday will almost certainly see the year 2100. He continued: “So we as educators have now got to seriously aspire to educate children not just for the 21st century but for the 22nd century. We believe that educating children in an atmosphere of human rights and equality is an optimum way to prepare them for a world which is dramatically more diverse than the world in which we grew up ourselves.”

    After the official unveiling of a plaque to mark the opening of the school, the Taoiseach said the Catholic Church owned most schools in the country but was anxious to divest a number of them. “But clearly in any area around the country this requires a process of consultation and negotiation and it’s not without its difficulties,” he said.


  • #1449
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Meaningless,
    Only 20 kids,

    If it was a school of 150-200 I'd see it has some level of progress, even if educate together is still not the proper solution


  • #1450
    expectationlost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,985 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    City's first new Catholic school in 30 years opens http://www.herald.ie/news/citys-first-new-catholic-school-in-30-years-opens-30552700.html
    "There is no Catholic school from Finglas, past Dunboyne in this direction. They're all multi-denominational or non-denominational. In effect in Dublin 15, there hasn't been much parental choice because of the type of schools that opened in the last 30 years."


  • #1451
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    expectationlost wrote: »
    City's first new Catholic school in 30 years opens http://www.herald.ie/news/citys-first-new-catholic-school-in-30-years-opens-30552700.html

    oh ffs!
    :mad:


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