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Hurling All-Stars 2014

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    #92
    Charlie69
    Registered Users Posts: 1,742 ✭✭✭Charlie69


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    It's nine I think? And 6 KK?

    I do think there is a precedent for this before, I must have a look. In fairness like, you could look at it that way with Cork and Limerick as well and question how Cork didn't get any award and Limerick got two but then you would find it hard to pick a standout player.

    Conor Lehane was there best for me, but you couldn't give him one ahead of anyone in the half forward line.

    I'm, including Cathal Barrett to make it ten awards


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    #93
    glasagusban
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭glasagusban


    citykat wrote: »
    Wrong selections:

    Gleeson - selected by default purely on number of matches. Though he played less, Murphy was far better. Put it this way. Given the choice, who would you rather have?
    Hickey - ONE good game. Poor Munster final when he gave away one ball that lead to a Cork goal. Barrett or Tyrrell far better seasons.
    McGrath - marginal but for me, Fogarty was more effective. Not flashy, but just the man to dog it out in the middle.
    Bubbles - anonymous in the replay when Tipp needed leadership.
    Dowling - didn't do enough over the season for me. Think his ratings get skewed by the free taking tally in the same way as Callinan.

    :D:D:D


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    #94
    Flukey
    Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    RobertKK wrote: »
    So a team with the most supposedly better players won nothing were better than a team that won 4 trophies with supposedly less better players...
    It is kind of insulting to Tipperary to give them more all stars which suggests the other 8 players let the team down, given it took a team with just 6 all stars to beat them.

    The All-Stars is about players not teams. You could have a genius of a player who has 14 guys on his first team that can barely hit a ball straight and so they win nothing, but he is still the best player in his position in the country. So despite the fact that he plays with 14 talentless blokes that would be better off playing tiddly-winks than being on a GAA pitch, he still deserves an All-Star ahead of anyone else, even if they all have handfuls of medals. Equally you could have 14 geniuses and one hanger on who wins lots of medals, but he does not deserve an All-Star. All-Stars and All-Ireland should have nothing to do with each other. It would be like complaining if the goal of the year or point of the year was not scored in the All-Ireland final or not scored by the All-Ireland champions. Is player X the best player in position Y? That is the question for awarding an All-Star. What else he may have won is totally irrelevant.


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    #95
    Charlie69
    Registered Users Posts: 1,742 ✭✭✭Charlie69


    Flukey wrote: »
    The All-Stars is about players not teams. You could have a genius of a player who has 14 guys on his first team that can barely hit a ball straight and so they win nothing, but he is still the best player in his position in the country. So despite the fact that he plays with 14 talentless blokes that would be better off playing tiddly-winks than being on a GAA pitch, he still deserves an All-Star ahead of anyone else, even if they all have handfuls of medals. Equally you could have 14 geniuses and one hanger on who wins lots of medals, but he does not deserve an All-Star. All-Stars and All-Ireland should have nothing to do with each other. It would be like complaining if the goal of the year or point of the year was not scored in the All-Ireland final or not scored by the All-Ireland champions. Is player X the best player in position Y? That is the question for awarding an All-Star. What else he may have won is totally irrelevant.
    I understand your point , but surely the team that won everything must have more very good players than the other teams.


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    #96
    Fwank wizzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭Fwank wizzo


    Mountainlad wrote: »
    Murphy played two and a quarter games in the championship, and if I remember correctly you were giving out to me for questioning Gleeson in the replay saying "you know nothing about hurling if you think that man had anything or than an outstanding game".

    And then Bonner had one bad game all year when he had questions over his fitness and you write off his reward. And also question the inclusion of the two Mahers. If you were angling for Kieran Joyce's inclusion, he only played one game. So the very thing you were denying Gleeson for (one very good goalkeeping performance) you'd give Joyce a reward, while denying Bonner one? Brendan Maher also was Tipp's best player in my opinion in the final replay.


    Padraig Walsh was probably man of the match in the Kilkenny win, but he had a poor enough championship overall (being played out of position in fairness) so can't include him. Fennelly was injured for a lot of it and his prominence was only really felt in the replay. No way is he in ahead of Bonner.


    Those three you argued and Paudie Maher were nailed. You could dispute midfield, and the biggest one for me would be Dowling and Power where I think Richie should have gotten it. But while your talking about 50/50 calls, Barrett got man of the match in the drawn final and was excellent for Tipp all year but was omitted. So swings and roundabouts, though I agree it's hard to credit Tipp getting more but when you break it down there is a fair argument for everyone that was included.
    Gleeson conceded 33 goals this season,I'll repeat that's 33 goals !!! how you can argue for him is in all fairness,nuts.Murphy is a class act,no matter how many games he played.(didn't Donaghy get one tonight after playing less than Murphy??) :)

    I ain't angling for Joyce at all.Far from it.But I would question when Bonnar who is Tipps go to player in attack,failed to perform when the pressure came on to stand up and be counted.And he did fail.
    Padraig Maher got destroyed against Galway,played great against Cork when he was basically marking no one,and then Richie had a field day on him in the second half of the first final..Big doubts there.Hes well known for being dodgy when he's put on the back foot.When he's given space he looks like Hercules.When he's forced to turn then he's like Glenn Whelan.Average.

    Shane McGrath over Fogarty?? Not a hope.McGrath looked Holywood because Fennelly let him off and was back helping his defence.Sure my granny would lob over those points in his position! (Was he not subbed when he was marked,later on?)
    I'm going to predict that Fogarty will have many individual awards before he hangs up his boots.Vastly under appreciated player.
    All Tipp deserve,IMO,would be Bubbles,Callinan and possibly Brendan Maher.
    As for Mcgrath,Paudie Maher,Bonnar and Gleeson...NFW.
    No Chance.

    We could argue till the cows come home,but at the end of the day,those awards tonight are not a fair reflection of the season.

    And I'll agree with you,it is hard to credit.


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    #97
    savannahkat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭savannahkat


    Flukey wrote: »
    The All-Stars is about players not teams. You could have a genius of a player who has 14 guys on his first team that can barely hit a ball straight and so they win nothing, but he is still the best player in his position in the country. So despite the fact that he plays with 14 talentless blokes that would be better off playing tiddly-winks than being on a GAA pitch, he still deserves an All-Star ahead of anyone else, even if they all have handfuls of medals. Equally you could have 14 geniuses and one hanger on who wins lots of medals, but he does not deserve an All-Star. All-Stars and All-Ireland should have nothing to do with each other. It would be like complaining if the goal of the year or point of the year was not scored in the All-Ireland final or not scored by the All-Ireland champions. Is player X the best player in position Y? That is the question for awarding an All-Star. What else he may have won is totally irrelevant.

    You would expect a team with 7 All stars to win something, anything even a mickey mouse preseason tournament. Beaten By Kilkenny in the league and the league final as well as the All Ireland, beaten by Limerick in Muster. Avoided a relegation play off due to a Dublin player not knowing the scoring averages and are given 7 All Stars. This has nothing to do with Kilkenny it would apply to any team with Tipp's 2014 history and nothing else. It cant be justified. There is no way on this earth that Tipperary had 7 players better than every one else in those 7 positions through out the year. If they had they would have been unbeatable and they most certainly did not in the All Ireland Final replay or the original game for that matter. There is no justification on their league , Munster or All Ireland performances and that is where they are supposed to earn them.


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    #98
    Flukey
    Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    Charlie69 wrote: »
    I understand your point , but surely the team that won everything must have more very good players than the other teams.

    Yes, they have lots of good players and as a result many All-Stars have All-Irelands. That is what normally happens. It doesn't naturally follow that they should always have the majority. The way some people go on though, the 15 All-Stars should be the same 15 that walk up the steps of the Hogan Stand in September.

    In theory though, those 15 players could all be the second best players in their positions in the country. Put them together and you get a great team. Meanwhile the 15 best in each position are spread across many different teams. There could be one of my genius player example on each of 15 different teams and so they never win an All-Ireland but those 15 guys are still the best players in the country and they should get the 15 All-Stars and the All-Ireland champions should get none. The best individual team wins All-Irelands, the best individual players win All-Stars, and that is how it should be. Naturally there is an overlap, but there doesn't have to be a majority. As an aside, don't forget, if it wasn't for Hawk-eye we could be saying that the All-Ireland champions did get the most All-Stars.


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    #99
    mickmackey1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭mickmackey1


    Yep, and lets not forget TJ got cleaned out by Hickey so that should be one less for KK :P


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    #100
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    citykat wrote: »
    Wrong selections:

    Gleeson - selected by default purely on number of matches. Though he played less, Murphy was far better. Put it this way. Given the choice, who would you rather have?
    Hickey - ONE good game. Poor Munster final when he gave away one ball that lead to a Cork goal. Barrett or Tyrrell far better seasons.
    McGrath - marginal but for me, Fogarty was more effective. Not flashy, but just the man to dog it out in the middle.
    Bubbles - anonymous in the replay when Tipp needed leadership.
    Dowling - didn't do enough over the season for me. Think his ratings get skewed by the free taking tally in the same way as Callinan.

    So Limerick beat Tipp and almost beat Kilkenny, yet deserve no award.:confused:
    Frees aside, Dowling had a fine campaign. 2 goals V Tipp, good Munster final, destroyed Wexford and very good game V KK, probably one of JJs toughest ever battles that day.
    Hickey was average V Tipp but stood up when the game was in the melting pot, he had a fine Munster final, apart from his giveaway for Corks second goal, awesome V Wexford and MOTM V Cats, enough said.


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    #101
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    washman3 wrote: »
    So Limerick beat Tipp and almost beat Kilkenny, yet deserve no award.:confused:
    Frees aside, Dowling had a fine campaign. 2 goals V Tipp, good Munster final, destroyed Wexford and very good game V KK, probably one of JJs toughest ever battles that day.
    Hickey was average V Tipp but stood up when the game was in the melting pot, he had a fine Munster final, apart from his giveaway for Corks second goal, awesome V Wexford and MOTM V Cats, enough said.

    Exactly.
    But some posts are so dumb I simply don't reply to them.

    Tipp probably got lucky to have 7, and Cork unlucky not to get at least 1 on.


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    #102
    Flukey
    Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    washman3 wrote: »
    So Limerick beat Tipp and almost beat Kilkenny, yet deserve no award.:confused:

    How often does it have to be said? Forget about teams, this is about players. We start at number 1. Who is the best goalkeeper in the country? We take a goalkeeper. Who he plays for is irrelevant. What medals he won is irrelevant. His quality as a goalkeeper against the quality of every other goalkeeper is what we are measuring and on that and only on that do we say whether he deserves an All-Star. We then move on to number 2. Team and medals, again irrelevant. How good is he? Is he the best in the country? Then number 3 and on we go. When we finish the process we have 15 players. Some county or other may have the most, but based on the criteria we picked each player on and the fact that his county is irrelevant and what he won is irrelevant, it doesn't follow that the county with most medals will win most All-Stars. It also doesn't follow that a team that has more All-Stars than another team is a better team. So, altogether now, repeat after me: Teams and medals are irrelevant for the awarding of All-Stars. Simple, eh? Equally, repeat after me: Being the best player in a position is irrelevant to winning All-Irelands. Again, simple. It is not rocket science guys.


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    #103
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    Flukey wrote: »
    How often does it have to be said? Forget about teams, this is about players. We start at number 1. Who is the best goalkeeper in the country? We take a goalkeeper. Who he plays for is irrelevant. What medals he won is irrelevant. His quality as a goalkeeper against the quality of every other goalkeeper is what we are measuring and on that and only on that do we say whether he deserves an All-Star. We then move on to number 2. Team and medals, again irrelevant. How good is he? Is he the best in the country? Then number 3 and on we go. When we finish the process we have 15 players. Some county or other may have the most, but based on the criteria we picked each player on and the fact that his county is irrelevant and what he won is irrelevant, it doesn't follow that the county with most medals will win most All-Stars. It also doesn't follow that a team that has more All-Stars than another team is a better team. So, altogether now, repeat after me: Teams and medals are irrelevant for the awarding of All-Stars. Simple, eh? Equally, repeat after me: Being the best player in a position is irrelevant to winning All-Irelands. Again, simple. It is not rocket science guys.

    Rubbish. It's all about teams.


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    #104
    Charlie69
    Registered Users Posts: 1,742 ✭✭✭Charlie69


    Flukey wrote: »
    Yes, they have lots of good players and as a result many All-Stars have All-Irelands. That is what normally happens. It doesn't naturally follow that they should always have the majority. The way some people go on though, the 15 All-Stars should be the same 15 that walk up the steps of the Hogan Stand in September.

    In theory though, those 15 players could all be the second best players in their positions in the country. Put them together and you get a great team. Meanwhile the 15 best in each position are spread across many different teams. There could be one of my genius player example on each of 15 different teams and so they never win an All-Ireland but those 15 guys are still the best players in the country and they should get the 15 All-Stars and the All-Ireland champions should get none. The best individual team wins All-Irelands, the best individual players win All-Stars, and that is how it should be. Naturally there is an overlap, but there doesn't have to be a majority. As an aside, don't forget, if it wasn't for Hawk-eye we could be saying that the All-Ireland champions did get the most All-Stars.

    You completely missed my point


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    #105
    mickmackey1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭mickmackey1


    Its worth pointing out that this is the 44th All-Star team and only the third time that the AI winners have not got the most All-Stars - 2 years ago Galway got more than KK and in '73 KK got more than Limerick.


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    #106
    Rightwing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    mickmackey1 wrote: »
    Its worth pointing out that this is the 44th All-Star team and only the third time that the AI winners have not got the most All-Stars - 2 years ago Galway got more than KK and in '73 KK got more than Limerick.

    2 replays there. Tipp were without doubt the better team in the drawn match, this may have helped their haul. Galway were probably better too in the 1st match.


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    #107
    Flukey
    Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    Charlie69 wrote: »
    You completely missed my point
    According to hawk-eye, it was wide. :)


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    #108
    breghall
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭breghall


    I'm surprised C McDonald didn't get YHOTY, he was a handful for every fb that marked him, and scored 5.10 in the championship all from play, (which is way more than Dowling got from play) and he's only barely 19...
    Barrett def 2nd imo though.


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    #109
    citykat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    JJ was asked by Marty how the AS compared to the AI tonight. In fairness to him he said there was no comparison. One word - farce.


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    #110
    citykat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    Rightwing wrote: »
    2 replays there. Tipp were without doubt the better team in the drawn match, this may have helped their haul. Galway were probably better too in the 1st match.

    Presume you're not a betting man. Bookies will love you...


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    #111
    citykat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    breghall wrote: »
    I'm surprised C McDonald didn't get YHOTY, he was a handful for every fb that marked him, and scored 5.10 in the championship all from play, (which is way more than Dowling got from play) and he's only barely 19...
    Barrett def 2nd imo though.

    Animal of a player. On a better team shoe-in for yhoty.


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    #112
    Fwank wizzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭Fwank wizzo


    citykat wrote: »
    Animal of a player. On a better team shoe-in for yhoty.
    Class player.
    I'd have him ahead of Barrett as well.Machine


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    #113
    citykat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    mickmackey1 wrote: »
    Its worth pointing out that this is the 44th All-Star team and only the third time that the AI winners have not got the most All-Stars - 2 years ago Galway got more than KK and in '73 KK got more than Limerick.

    Yea that GY team was some team alright. They really pushed on....


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    #114
    MfMan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭MfMan


    citykat wrote: »
    Yea that GY team was some team alright. They really pushed on....

    Nothing to do with pushing on, based purely on one year's display.


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    #115
    mickmackey1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭mickmackey1


    breghall wrote: »
    I'm surprised C McDonald didn't get YHOTY, he scored 5.10 in the championship all from play, (which is way more than Dowling got from play)

    Played 6 matches compared to 4 for Dowling, and got 2-2 v Antrim.


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    #116
    Kkboy
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭Kkboy


    No more steaks for the journos in Langtons after that selection


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    #117
    bruschi
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,139 Mod ✭✭✭✭bruschi


    I can't understand how people don't get how there awards are done. The team picked is pretty much exactly how I thought it would go, bar 2 positions, and even then it was a toss up. Winning the all Ireland doesn't mean the individual was the best player in that position.

    And the Kilkenny lads want it every way. They made 3 changes to the team for the replay. Most games never saw the same 15 starting, it was about the strength in depth and adaptability. Those team tactics do nothing to help win individual awards. But they do win team awards, which is the ultimate goal. The only player from kk I think unlucky was Power, and he would have replaced Fennelly so the overall number would be the same. Paudi maher was a bit lucky to get centre back, but there was no stand out player there this year.

    Conor Mac was never going to get young player either once Barrett's performances in the quarters on were displayed. It's the business end when they factor decisions into account. He has another 2 years to try get one anyway.


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    #118
    Realt Dearg Sec
    Registered Users Posts: 10,830 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    I felt Power and Conor Fogarty (less so, but I can see the argument) were hard done by. But I agree with those saying that the All Stars don't have to reflect the fact that we won the AI. Certainly it shouldn't be a principle of the selection process. I mean, Clara won the county final in Kilkenny last year, by which logic they should have the most players on the county team. They didn't, and I don't think anyone really believes any of their players could displace anyone on the starting 15. It's perfectly possible that players are better in literally EVERY position on the field, but that when it comes down to it you're a better team than anyone around you. The All Stars selection is just a less extreme version of that situation.


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    #119
    Anonymou
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭Anonymou


    bruschi wrote: »
    I can't understand how people don't get how there awards are done. The team picked is pretty much exactly how I thought it would go, bar 2 positions, and even then it was a toss up. Winning the all Ireland doesn't mean the individual was the best player in that position.

    And the Kilkenny lads want it every way. They made 3 changes to the team for the replay. Most games never saw the same 15 starting, it was about the strength in depth and adaptability. Those team tactics do nothing to help win individual awards. But they do win team awards, which is the ultimate goal. The only player from kk I think unlucky was Power, and he would have replaced Fennelly so the overall number would be the same. Paudi maher was a bit lucky to get centre back, but there was no stand out player there this year.

    Conor Mac was never going to get young player either once Barrett's performances in the quarters on were displayed. It's the business end when they factor decisions into account. He has another 2 years to try get one anyway.


    Post is spot on,Kilkenny won this AI not by any outstanding individual performances but as a collective being better than the rest, same reason Cork got none. No player bar 1 or 2 were exceptional in every match but as a group Cork were solid and well worthy of the Munster title, although personally I think Mark Ellis is very unlucky not to have got an all star for the centre back, didn't put a foot wrong all year even when Cork were getting hammered by Tipp.
    KK fans may be feeling hard done by but of the 8 provincial winners in hurling and football Cork are the only ones to get no all star.


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    #120
    Fireball07
    Registered Users Posts: 13,264 ✭✭✭✭Fireball07


    I think the All-Stars were fair enough.

    Some of the KK players lost out because of the lack of games they played. I wouldn't have any arguments that Tipp had more better individual performances over the course of the Championship than KK. Kilkenny were hurt by a non-competitive Leinster final, I think, in terms of All-Stars. Tipp had a close game against Limerick, a high-scoring win against Galway, a fairly run-of-the-mill win over Dublin, a thrashing of Cork (which was where a lot of their All-Stars were won) and then 2 intense finals.

    Gleeson was always going to win over Murphy, for his puckouts alone. The fact that Herrity was picked for a couple of games also helped. Is Murphy a better goalkeeper? Perhaps. But you don't win All-Stars for good games in a final alone.

    I'd also say that was why Richie Power didn't get one, he was on the bench in the semi-final & Leinster final... he was class in both All-Ireland finals, but they are just 2 games. Dowling's scoring record from play this year was unbelievable, same with Callanan. And Fennelly was probably Kilkenny's most consistent forward.



    I don't think the other positions are even arguable, Fogarty was the closest, I'd imagine. But the likes of Reid, Delaney & Murphy were under more pressure from competitors than you'd have KK players pushing for other positions. In a close-run thing, you probably give the nod to the team who got further, but it has to be very tight.


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    #121
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    Eoin Murphy and Richie Power got injured v Galway, but your point stands. More exposure and the two would have all stars.


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