Hurling All-Stars 2014

Flukey · 24-10-2014 10:57pm

washman3 wrote: »

So Limerick beat Tipp and almost beat Kilkenny, yet deserve no award.

How often does it have to be said? Forget about teams, this is about players. We start at number 1. Who is the best goalkeeper in the country? We take a goalkeeper. Who he plays for is irrelevant. What medals he won is irrelevant. His quality as a goalkeeper against the quality of every other goalkeeper is what we are measuring and on that and only on that do we say whether he deserves an All-Star. We then move on to number 2. Team and medals, again irrelevant. How good is he? Is he the best in the country? Then number 3 and on we go. When we finish the process we have 15 players. Some county or other may have the most, but based on the criteria we picked each player on and the fact that his county is irrelevant and what he won is irrelevant, it doesn't follow that the county with most medals will win most All-Stars. It also doesn't follow that a team that has more All-Stars than another team is a better team. So, altogether now, repeat after me: Teams and medals are irrelevant for the awarding of All-Stars. Simple, eh? Equally, repeat after me: Being the best player in a position is irrelevant to winning All-Irelands. Again, simple. It is not rocket science guys.

Rightwing · 24-10-2014 11:03pm

Flukey wrote: »

How often does it have to be said? Forget about teams, this is about players. We start at number 1. Who is the best goalkeeper in the country? We take a goalkeeper. Who he plays for is irrelevant. What medals he won is irrelevant. His quality as a goalkeeper against the quality of every other goalkeeper is what we are measuring and on that and only on that do we say whether he deserves an All-Star. We then move on to number 2. Team and medals, again irrelevant. How good is he? Is he the best in the country? Then number 3 and on we go. When we finish the process we have 15 players. Some county or other may have the most, but based on the criteria we picked each player on and the fact that his county is irrelevant and what he won is irrelevant, it doesn't follow that the county with most medals will win most All-Stars. It also doesn't follow that a team that has more All-Stars than another team is a better team. So, altogether now, repeat after me: Teams and medals are irrelevant for the awarding of All-Stars. Simple, eh? Equally, repeat after me: Being the best player in a position is irrelevant to winning All-Irelands. Again, simple. It is not rocket science guys.

Rubbish. It's all about teams.

Charlie69 · 24-10-2014 11:07pm

Flukey wrote: »

Yes, they have lots of good players and as a result many All-Stars have All-Irelands. That is what normally happens. It doesn't naturally follow that they should always have the majority. The way some people go on though, the 15 All-Stars should be the same 15 that walk up the steps of the Hogan Stand in September.

In theory though, those 15 players could all be the second best players in their positions in the country. Put them together and you get a great team. Meanwhile the 15 best in each position are spread across many different teams. There could be one of my genius player example on each of 15 different teams and so they never win an All-Ireland but those 15 guys are still the best players in the country and they should get the 15 All-Stars and the All-Ireland champions should get none. The best individual team wins All-Irelands, the best individual players win All-Stars, and that is how it should be. Naturally there is an overlap, but there doesn't have to be a majority. As an aside, don't forget, if it wasn't for Hawk-eye we could be saying that the All-Ireland champions did get the most All-Stars.

You completely missed my point

mickmackey1 · 24-10-2014 11:07pm

Its worth pointing out that this is the 44th All-Star team and only the third time that the AI winners have not got the most All-Stars - 2 years ago Galway got more than KK and in '73 KK got more than Limerick.

Rightwing · 24-10-2014 11:10pm

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Its worth pointing out that this is the 44th All-Star team and only the third time that the AI winners have not got the most All-Stars - 2 years ago Galway got more than KK and in '73 KK got more than Limerick.

2 replays there. Tipp were without doubt the better team in the drawn match, this may have helped their haul. Galway were probably better too in the 1st match.

Flukey · 24-10-2014 11:15pm

Charlie69 wrote: »

You completely missed my point

According to hawk-eye, it was wide.

breghall · 24-10-2014 11:21pm

I'm surprised C McDonald didn't get YHOTY, he was a handful for every fb that marked him, and scored 5.10 in the championship all from play, (which is way more than Dowling got from play) and he's only barely 19...
Barrett def 2nd imo though.

citykat · 24-10-2014 11:36pm

JJ was asked by Marty how the AS compared to the AI tonight. In fairness to him he said there was no comparison. One word - farce.

citykat · 24-10-2014 11:39pm

Rightwing wrote: »

2 replays there. Tipp were without doubt the better team in the drawn match, this may have helped their haul. Galway were probably better too in the 1st match.

Presume you're not a betting man. Bookies will love you...

citykat · 24-10-2014 11:41pm

breghall wrote: »

I'm surprised C McDonald didn't get YHOTY, he was a handful for every fb that marked him, and scored 5.10 in the championship all from play, (which is way more than Dowling got from play) and he's only barely 19...
Barrett def 2nd imo though.

Animal of a player. On a better team shoe-in for yhoty.

Fwank wizzo · 24-10-2014 11:43pm

citykat wrote: »

Animal of a player. On a better team shoe-in for yhoty.

Class player.
I'd have him ahead of Barrett as well.Machine

citykat · 24-10-2014 11:44pm

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Its worth pointing out that this is the 44th All-Star team and only the third time that the AI winners have not got the most All-Stars - 2 years ago Galway got more than KK and in '73 KK got more than Limerick.

Yea that GY team was some team alright. They really pushed on....

MfMan · 25-10-2014 12:31am

citykat wrote: »

Yea that GY team was some team alright. They really pushed on....

Nothing to do with pushing on, based purely on one year's display.

mickmackey1 · 25-10-2014 12:57am

breghall wrote: »

I'm surprised C McDonald didn't get YHOTY, he scored 5.10 in the championship all from play, (which is way more than Dowling got from play)

Played 6 matches compared to 4 for Dowling, and got 2-2 v Antrim.

Kkboy · 25-10-2014 1:03am

No more steaks for the journos in Langtons after that selection

bruschi · 25-10-2014 9:13am

I can't understand how people don't get how there awards are done. The team picked is pretty much exactly how I thought it would go, bar 2 positions, and even then it was a toss up. Winning the all Ireland doesn't mean the individual was the best player in that position.

And the Kilkenny lads want it every way. They made 3 changes to the team for the replay. Most games never saw the same 15 starting, it was about the strength in depth and adaptability. Those team tactics do nothing to help win individual awards. But they do win team awards, which is the ultimate goal. The only player from kk I think unlucky was Power, and he would have replaced Fennelly so the overall number would be the same. Paudi maher was a bit lucky to get centre back, but there was no stand out player there this year.

Conor Mac was never going to get young player either once Barrett's performances in the quarters on were displayed. It's the business end when they factor decisions into account. He has another 2 years to try get one anyway.

Realt Dearg Sec · 25-10-2014 10:07am

I felt Power and Conor Fogarty (less so, but I can see the argument) were hard done by. But I agree with those saying that the All Stars don't have to reflect the fact that we won the AI. Certainly it shouldn't be a principle of the selection process. I mean, Clara won the county final in Kilkenny last year, by which logic they should have the most players on the county team. They didn't, and I don't think anyone really believes any of their players could displace anyone on the starting 15. It's perfectly possible that players are better in literally EVERY position on the field, but that when it comes down to it you're a better team than anyone around you. The All Stars selection is just a less extreme version of that situation.

Anonymou · 25-10-2014 11:27am

bruschi wrote: »

I can't understand how people don't get how there awards are done. The team picked is pretty much exactly how I thought it would go, bar 2 positions, and even then it was a toss up. Winning the all Ireland doesn't mean the individual was the best player in that position.

And the Kilkenny lads want it every way. They made 3 changes to the team for the replay. Most games never saw the same 15 starting, it was about the strength in depth and adaptability. Those team tactics do nothing to help win individual awards. But they do win team awards, which is the ultimate goal. The only player from kk I think unlucky was Power, and he would have replaced Fennelly so the overall number would be the same. Paudi maher was a bit lucky to get centre back, but there was no stand out player there this year.

Conor Mac was never going to get young player either once Barrett's performances in the quarters on were displayed. It's the business end when they factor decisions into account. He has another 2 years to try get one anyway.

Post is spot on,Kilkenny won this AI not by any outstanding individual performances but as a collective being better than the rest, same reason Cork got none. No player bar 1 or 2 were exceptional in every match but as a group Cork were solid and well worthy of the Munster title, although personally I think Mark Ellis is very unlucky not to have got an all star for the centre back, didn't put a foot wrong all year even when Cork were getting hammered by Tipp.
KK fans may be feeling hard done by but of the 8 provincial winners in hurling and football Cork are the only ones to get no all star.

Fireball07 · 25-10-2014 11:46am

I think the All-Stars were fair enough.

Some of the KK players lost out because of the lack of games they played. I wouldn't have any arguments that Tipp had more better individual performances over the course of the Championship than KK. Kilkenny were hurt by a non-competitive Leinster final, I think, in terms of All-Stars. Tipp had a close game against Limerick, a high-scoring win against Galway, a fairly run-of-the-mill win over Dublin, a thrashing of Cork (which was where a lot of their All-Stars were won) and then 2 intense finals.

Gleeson was always going to win over Murphy, for his puckouts alone. The fact that Herrity was picked for a couple of games also helped. Is Murphy a better goalkeeper? Perhaps. But you don't win All-Stars for good games in a final alone.

I'd also say that was why Richie Power didn't get one, he was on the bench in the semi-final & Leinster final... he was class in both All-Ireland finals, but they are just 2 games. Dowling's scoring record from play this year was unbelievable, same with Callanan. And Fennelly was probably Kilkenny's most consistent forward.

I don't think the other positions are even arguable, Fogarty was the closest, I'd imagine. But the likes of Reid, Delaney & Murphy were under more pressure from competitors than you'd have KK players pushing for other positions. In a close-run thing, you probably give the nod to the team who got further, but it has to be very tight.

Mountainlad · 25-10-2014 12:44pm

Eoin Murphy and Richie Power got injured v Galway, but your point stands. More exposure and the two would have all stars.

The Slobs · 25-10-2014 10:41pm

Interesting to look at selections past

The first All stars in 1971 had representations from eight counties

TV coverage was limited

Maybe more about the players than the teams who won or dominated the all Irelands

1.Offaly
2.Limerick
3.Tipperary
4.Kilkenny
6.Galway
7. Dublin
8. Cork

andyman · 26-10-2014 2:29am

I have no arguements with the All-Star selection to be honest.

Kilkenny won the All-Ireland because they had incredible depth in their squad. Being able to make 3 changes for the replay in bringing in Walsh, Joyce and J Power showed just how good the squad as a whole was. You couldn't say the same about Tipp.

The likes if Eoin Murphy, Padraig Walsh, Conor Fogarty and Richie Power were unlucky as opposed to hard done by in the fact that they were in and out of the KK team for one reason or another, not really their fault. Murphy's injury allowed Gleeson to perform consistently. I would have given it to Murphy personally, but I can see why Gleeson got it. Brendan Maher had a season on par with Buckley's, so saying Walsh should have got in ahead of him is a bit wide of the mark IMO, McGrath and Fogarty was close and if I was in charge of selecting between the two of them I'd have to toss a coin, but what about James Ryan or Lee Chin who both were stars for their respective teams? That second midfield spot could have gone to anyone of the 4. Power was up against a vast array of talent in the forward line and would have probably got one in another year.

You can't deny Bonner Maher or Callinan theirs either. People have made the point that Bonner was missing in the AI. So? He was missing because Cody respected him enough to put an incredible man-marker in Joyce on him. Joyce was the only person who could stop him this season.

Paudy Maher you could question at 6, but at the same time nobody really stood out at 6 this season.

dzer2 · 26-10-2014 7:45pm

Just look at the spine of the team
Goalie
Full Back
Centre back
Mid field
Centre Forward
Full forward

When the chips were down who in that lot do you turn to.

2 maybe 3 out of what was selected that would show you how they picked them.

Boom__Boom · 26-10-2014 8:12pm

Does anyone know if it's only the hurlers who take part in the championship proper that get to vote or where the cut-off is exactly for the hurling All-Stars.

Is it championship proper - 12 teams this year or do all 15 teams who compete for Liam get a vote?

Do players from the teams who compete at Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher level get to vote?

Mountainlad · 26-10-2014 8:15pm

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Does anyone know if it's only the hurlers who take part in the championship proper that get to vote or where the cut-off is exactly for the hurling All-Stars.

Is it championship proper - 12 teams this year or do all 15 teams who compete for Liam get a vote?

Do players from the teams who compete at Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher level get to vote?

Not sure but doubt the lower levels do as they have their own 'Champion 15' selection.

Boom__Boom · 26-10-2014 8:37pm

Mountainlad wrote: »

Not sure but doubt the lower levels do as they have their own 'Champion 15' selection.

Yeah thats what I was thinking - would seem a bit odd to have lads voting for the All-Stars (when they don't compete for them)

The thing is if it's only the 15 teams who were competing for Sam (and given you can't vote for team-mates) you could easily see it coming down to a very small number of votes in terms of deciding between some positions - especially where there were a couple of candidates for the last few spots.

Loads of people seem to forget the whole voting aspect of things and blame the journalists - which given the fact that, especially in the hurling, no-one with a serious case tends to be excluded is a bit nuts. [In the football it tends to be more of a case that the journalists nominating in positions can have an impact - Murphy being nominated in the half-forward line probably helped Donaghy and hurt Walsh's chances this year for instance]

Also with the voting it's clear that the overall balance of the team isn't really going to be a factor as the voters aren't going to be consulting with one another.

thinkstoomuch1 · 28-10-2014 10:48pm

As far as im aware in hurling gpa only votes indivudals awards for example player year based on shortlist devised by journalists

13 man committe still picks hurling all stars teams made up of journalists

if im wrong so be it but i didnt think format changed i could be wrong

Hurling All-Stars 2014

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