Employer won't pay redundancy

martinmcdonnell · 25-02-2011 7:28pm #1

On the last day at work my employer was sorting money with me(holiday money owed and back week etc).Then he pulled out the rp50 form which was filled out already and he said sign at the bottom and you will get your redundancy money,so I signed where it said that I received the money from the employer.Then he said that he would put some of it in every week until it was all paid(about 3500).I got 500 the first week and nothing since then,it's been four weeks.He keeps coming up with excuses.I know he sent the rp50 off to claim his percentage back.Is this how it works or should I have got the money on my last day or what can I do now cause it's beginning to annoy me,if I owed him the money he would be hounding me for it.
Do I contact someone to let them know that he is claiming a percentage of something that he hasn't paid or is that how it works
Any advice would be great.
And if my previous employer is reading this pull your finger out!

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 1:36am

im afraid the bad news is you have signed on official document wherein you agreed that you had received full and final payment of your redundancy entitlement and notice. your boss has sent this form away to the social insurance fund and and in a few weeks he will be reimbursed 60% of whatever figure you should have got. thats a nice little earner for him, isnt it? you can ring NERA on 1890808090 (do not follow any of the prompts to push button 1, 2 etc. stay on the line until you speak to someone) and put your situation to them but basically its your word against his now, but ultimately you've declared that he paid you the money and if push comes to shove, what proof have you that he didn't? its immaterial now what you should have done, but i do wish you would've at least got some advice first before signing. you shouldve refused to sign of course. there was an identical box on the other side of the page wherein you declare that you did not get your money. then your boss sends this away with a "statement of affairs" from his accountant basically declaring that he does not have the money to pay you. naturally enough the social insurance will examine this statement and if they agree with the accountant, they will pay you your redundancy. if they dont agree you would have to take him to the employment appeals tribunal to try to get the money off him. if he refused to sign and he said "well thats the best i can do take it or leave it..." you should have told him that you intend to pursue him for your redundancy, gone home and sent him an RP77 form (google it) you send the RP77 to him by registered post, keeping a photocopy and of course proof of posting. if he doesnt respond to the RP77 within 2 weeks you then send a T1A form (google it) to the aforementioned EAT. this is a formal complaint that you did not get your entitlement. the EAT then send him a copy of the complaint and a covering letter telling him that he will soon be called to a court hearing about the mater. this usually does the trick. in the meantime i would definitely let him no that you are intent on getting your money. but i dont know how. ring NERA. good luck.

martinmcdonnell · 26-02-2011 10:49am

Thanks for the reply,I guess if I show them bank statements of whatever money he has paid me,and if they ask him to show statements of when the money came out of his account that might help. Any way I will give them a call and thanks for the reply.

Joey the lips · 26-02-2011 10:56am

I dont think mrs byrne is right..... Did he put the first 500 in the bank? If so there is a paper trail to show it.

i would seek legal advice on this. It should be free from FLAC or consumer afairs.

Your official line is "Boss told me to sign box to receive money. Now he only gives me 500 euro and wont tell me when i am getting the rest."

martinmcdonnell · 26-02-2011 11:07am

Yes he did pay me in the bank,thanks again for he reply.tried to phone the 0890 number not open till Monday will try then.

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 12:44pm

Joey the lips wrote: »

I dont think mrs byrne is right..... Did he put the first 500 in the bank? If so there is a paper trail to show it.

i would seek legal advice on this. It should be free from FLAC or consumer afairs.

Your official line is "Boss told me to sign box to receive money. Now he only gives me 500 euro and wont tell me when i am getting the rest."

joey the boss will say that the employee requested 500 in the bank and the balance in cash. perfectly reasonable. yes FLAC will certainly give the op advice.they will tell him that its his word against his former boss's but to go ahead and hire a solicitor at his own risk. if you think he would get free legal aid for this issue, no he will not . i dont know why you think this is a consumer affairs problem, its not, its an employment rights issue. apart from anything else the national consumer agency certainly do not provide free legal advice, aid or anything like that. they offer advice and information concerning the sale of goods and services act 1991. nothing to do with employment rights.

Wolff · 26-02-2011 12:53pm

Bear in mind as well that msbyrne is way off the mark in regards to when the employer will get the balance - the current back log is between 9 to 12 months -so maybe thats the reason he is dragging his heels

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 1:00pm

Wolff wrote: »

Bear in mind as well that msbyrne is way off the mark in regards to when the employer will get the balance - the current back log is between 9 to 12 months -so maybe thats the reason he is dragging his heels

yes your right wolf. i only used the expression " a few weeks" to demonstrate how easy the op has made it for his former employer to come into a nice little windfall, which he is under no obligation (apart from a moral one) to pass onto his former employee. i will attach a link here to the RP50 form so that you can see just how straightforward and clear it is to employer employee and officialdom

http://www.deti.ie/forms/formrp50.pdf .

Happy Monday · 26-02-2011 1:04pm

An employer can offset the amount refundable from redundancy against PAYE/PRSI and VAT liabilities so he gets relief straight away.

To the OP - he is scamming you - he should have paid the full amount when you left.

Wolff · 26-02-2011 1:13pm

An employer can offset the amount refundable from redundancy against PAYE/PRSI and VAT liabilities so he gets relief straight away.

so he can get paid twice ?

link to that provision please

also you are guessing he has outstanding taxes due - most wind ups i have been involved with - the taxman was paid first - for obvious reasons

Happy Monday · 26-02-2011 1:26pm

Wolff wrote: »

An employer can offset the amount refundable from redundancy against PAYE/PRSI and VAT liabilities so he gets relief straight away.

so he can get paid twice ?

link to that provision please

also you are guessing he has outstanding taxes due - most wind ups i have been involved with - the taxman was paid first - for obvious reasons

Gets offset from other taxes due - payroll and so on which fall due each month - gets value once from Revenue. Introduced because of delays in payment from DETE.

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 1:39pm

Wolff wrote: »

An employer can offset the amount refundable from redundancy against PAYE/PRSI and VAT liabilities so he gets relief straight away.

so he can get paid twice ?

link to that provision please

also you are guessing he has outstanding taxes due - most wind ups i have been involved with - the taxman was paid first - for obvious reasons

where in the op does it say the business was in a wind-up situation!?this employer is , as far as i can see, still very much in business, had to let one or two "go" and has struck lucky with a trusting former employee, who he has now, quite successfully, scammed out of his constitutional right to statutory redundancy. if it is the case that the business has gone to the wall, then the op can forget totally and completely about getting any more redundancy out of this man.

martinmcdonnell · 26-02-2011 1:53pm

Employer hasn't gone to the wall and and there's no way to say he can't afford to pay.

martinmcdonnell · 26-02-2011 2:08pm

Surely if I phone them and inform them, they are hardly gonna pay him the 60% without investigating further

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 2:12pm

martin your only one of thousands this has happened too. i have even gone as far as advising employees not to sign the RP50 until the cheque clears, if payment is by cheque, as cheques are bouncing all over this country.employees make the mistake of assuming that because they have been loyal honest hardworking employees, that their employer values them and will do the right thing by them. forget about it. when it comes to the crunch the small to medium employer will always, but always try to get out of paying the redundancy, especially family run businesses.:( this will drive you absolutely crazy if you let it. dont let it. do your upmost to get your money out of him, but know when to let it go, you made a mistake, you'll know the next time.

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 2:17pm

martinmcdonnell wrote: »

Surely if I phone them and inform them, they are hardly gonna pay him the 60% without investigating further

absolutely martin phone them, complain about him kick up all the stink you can. you've nothing to lose. but look at the form i posted again. you signed that you were paid the money. its even emboldened and underlined to stop you from making the mistake you did. even if you do get a sympathetic ear from NERA, im guessing any investigation will result in your employer sticking to his guns, that you were paid 500 into the bank and the rest in cash.what proof have you that he didnt?what more can be done about it?

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 2:18pm

is it alot of money martin?

Wolff · 26-02-2011 2:24pm

You cant offset this against other taxes due each month thats nonsense.

its not treated as a tax offset - full stop.

If the employer pays the ammount of statutory redundancy and then submits his claim to the department of Enterprise he gets 60% of the amount paid back

The time line for repayment at the moment is 1yr plus after the payment is made

The alternative is that the employer cant or wont pay the Stat redundancy and you claim the amount back from the department - again this is taking 1yr + to be paid.

You signed a legal document stating he paid you in full at the time of signing

your only course of action is to get onto the Dept in question and see what they can do for you - either way you are in for a long wait im afraid

I never said this was a wind up situation BTW

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 2:31pm

Wolff wrote: »

An employer can offset the amount refundable from redundancy against PAYE/PRSI and VAT liabilities so he gets relief straight away.

so he can get paid twice ?

link to that provision please

also you are guessing he has outstanding taxes due - most wind ups i have been involved with - the taxman was paid first - for obvious reasons

also like it or not wolff the employer can claim tax refund on the redundacy he paid, but only the statutory part of it

martinmcdonnell · 26-02-2011 2:44pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

is it alot of money martin?

3500 in full (500 already paid) to me with 5kids and a mortgage and now unemployed it is a lot of money

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 3:07pm

martinmcdonnell wrote: »

3500 in full (500 already paid) to me with 5kids and a mortgage and now unemployed it is a lot of money

jesus martin thats a shocker. please god youll get your money.

martinmcdonnell · 26-02-2011 3:09pm

Just got off the phone to previous employer and said (lied) that DETI sent me a letter asking me to forward to them proof of receipt of payment so they could process his claim.Obviously I have no proof,he sounded a bit flustered and worried and said to leave it with him and he will get back to me.

martinmcdonnell · 26-02-2011 3:13pm

I really appreciate all your feedback,talking about this is a good way of relieving the stress from it. It's true "a problem shared is a problem halved".

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 3:21pm

martinmcdonnell wrote: »

Just got off the phone to previous employer and said (lied) that DETI sent me a letter asking me to forward to them proof of receipt of payment so they could process his claim.Obviously I have no proof,he sounded a bit flustered and worried and said to leave it with him and he will get back to me.

brilliant move! fingers crossedxxx

Wolff · 26-02-2011 5:45pm

msbyrne - sorry but you are wrong

redundancy payments would be tax deducible againt profits of the busness

and the employer would be entitled to 60% of the stat redundancy back

so either he will still be waiting to get paid back what in theory he paid out

there is no offset against vat or paye owed straight away - just does not happen -

two completely different gov departments involved

Shelflife · 26-02-2011 7:39pm

To the OP i would inform your former employer that unless the outstanding amount is paid in full you will be in touch with your solicitor and Nera. I would imagine that there is cash flow problems and that is why he wants to stagger the payments, but you are entitled to the full amount immediatly.

Mrs Byrne most employers dont want to be in a redundancy situation, it usually means that their business is struggling, and believe me its not a nice situation to have to call staff in that youve worked with for years and tell them that you have to let them go.

when it comes to the crunch the small to medium employer will always, but always try to get out of paying the redundancy, especially family run businesses

thats a disgraceful statement and to talk about "windfalls" for employers who are involved in a redundancy process is laughable, where possibly could there be a windfall.

employers getting redundancy payments back after a few weeks? employers setting off the payments against tax and prsi/paye ? ha you clearly have little or no knowledge about how the system actually works as opposed to the theory.

please make yourself aware of the facts before throwing out statements like the above.

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 7:44pm

Wolff wrote: »

msbyrne - sorry but you are wrong

redundancy payments would be tax deducible againt profits of the busness

and the employer would be entitled to 60% of the stat redundancy back

so either he will still be waiting to get paid back what in theory he paid out

there is no offset against vat or paye owed straight away - just does not happen -

two completely different gov departments involved

no im sorry wolff, i havn't been making myself clear,what is tax deductible for the employer is the 40% of statutory redundancy he is liable for. of course the employer is dealing with DETE for the redundancy rebate and revenue for the tax rebate. sorry if i caused any consternation.

mrsbyrne · 26-02-2011 7:56pm

Shelflife wrote: »

To the OP i would inform your former employer that unless the outstanding amount is paid in full you will be in touch with your solicitor and Nera. I would imagine that there is cash flow problems and that is why he wants to stagger the payments, but you are entitled to the full amount immediatly.

Mrs Byrne most employers dont want to be in a redundancy situation, it usually means that their business is struggling, and believe me its not a nice situation to have to call staff in that youve worked with for years and tell them that you have to let them go.

when it comes to the crunch the small to medium employer will always, but always try to get out of paying the redundancy, especially family run businesses

thats a disgraceful statement and to talk about "windfalls" for employers who are involved in a redundancy process is laughable, where possibly could there be a windfall.

employers getting redundancy payments back after a few weeks? employers setting off the payments against tax and prsi/paye ? ha you clearly have little or no knowledge about how the system actually works as opposed to the theory.

please make yourself aware of the facts before throwing out statements like the above.

i dont know were you get your information from shelflife but every day for the last two years or more i am dealing with both employees and employers facing redundacy situations . i have helped many employees to get their entitlement and have "persuaded" and "informed" many employers of their statutory obligations. it is my overwhelming experience that small to medium family run business in rural ireland do not want to comply with the law regarding redundacy. it is my experience it is my opinion and on this forum or any other i am entitled to my opinion, whether you like it or not.:mad: you, however, are not entitled to abuse and insult me and as such i am now going to report your post as abusive.:mad:

Shelflife · 26-02-2011 9:33pm

You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to make general sweeping generalisations about all small businesses , such as the one below.

when it comes to the crunch the small to medium employer will always, but always try to get out of paying the redundancy, especially family run businesses

That statement is not true it may well be that your experiences have shown otherwise , but there are many instances where the full letter of the law are followed.

" your boss has sent this form away to the social insurance fund and and in a few weeks he will be reimbursed 60% of whatever figure you should have got. thats a nice little earner for him, isnt it? "

This statement is wrong. even if you did try to clarify the time scale afterwards in another post.

You make the tax deduction on the redundancy payment sound like a bonus to the employer and even then the tax deduction only applies if he makes a profit , which in alot of situations involving redundancy this is not the case.

In the OPs case he may well be in a situation where hes being scammed or it could be just a cash flow situation for the employer, time will tell.

"it is my experience it is my opinion and on this forum or any other i am entitled to my opinion, whether you like it or not. you, however, are not entitled to abuse and insult me and as such i am now going to report your post as abusive. "

Yes you are perfectly entitled to your opinion and to quote from your experiences but you are not entitled to make statements that are blatantly false and misleading.

From my first hand experience the employers dealt with the situation in a professional and legally compliant manner. But i also know that this is not the case in all situations.

If you could kindly point out where i was abusive and insulting to you in my post i would be obliged.

Mrs OBumble · 26-02-2011 11:34pm

<moderation>

Just a reminder to keep things civil and factual, as per the charter: I'm not seeing anything out of line here, and I'd appreciate if it stays that way.

We could do with a few more links and a few less opinions in this thread, and an acknowledgement that some, but not all, employers resort to fairly low tricks.

I think that mrsbyrne's point about not signing the form until you actually have the money is a good thing for everyone to remember. It's no help to the OP now, but may help others in future.

mrsbyrne, please start using capital letters at the start of your sentences: we don't appreciate txt spk or SHOUTING here. imho all lc is just as difficult to read. so though it's not mentioned i't make your posts easier to read (I'm sure you can see what I'm saying here.)

</moderation>

OP - excellent move you made there saying you'd had the letter asking for proof. Something others could keep in mind if they find themselves in similar situations.

Happy Monday · 27-02-2011 6:14pm

Wolff wrote: »

msbyrne - sorry but you are wrong

redundancy payments would be tax deducible againt profits of the busness

and the employer would be entitled to 60% of the stat redundancy back

so either he will still be waiting to get paid back what in theory he paid out

there is no offset against vat or paye owed straight away - just does not happen -

two completely different gov departments involved

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Xcp99wJk5ygJ:www.taxireland.ie/news/35349.aspx+redundancy+against+taxes+ireland&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&source=www.google.ie

The offsets are happening evey day of the week Wolff.
Perhaps you would want to get with the programme on this.
Apologise in your own time.

Shelflife · 27-02-2011 6:23pm

The offsets are happening evey day of the week Wolff.
Perhaps you would want to get with the programme on this.

Hi Happy Mondays , yes offsets are allowed, but you must show inability to pay your tax liabilities, its not an automatic offset.

afaik its not allowable against paye/prsi .

maybe a half apology would do

Happy Monday · 27-02-2011 8:19pm

Shelflife wrote: »

The offsets are happening evey day of the week Wolff.
Perhaps you would want to get with the programme on this.

Hi Happy Mondays , yes offsets are allowed, but you must show inability to pay your tax liabilities, its not an automatic offset.

afaik its not allowable against paye/prsi .

maybe a half apology would do

[/QUOTE]

You should be in Fianna Fail.
Companies are able to offset Redundancy receivable against PAYE/PRSI and VAT - full stop.
Our company does it all the time with agreement from both the DETE and Revenue.
So much for the argument of this being nonsense on the basis that these are two separate government departments.

Shelflife · 28-02-2011 12:16am

[QUOTE

You should be in Fianna Fail.
Companies are able to offset Redundancy receivable against PAYE/PRSI and VAT - full stop.
Our company does it all the time with agreement from both the DETE and Revenue.
So much for the argument of this being nonsense on the basis that these are two separate government departments.[/QUOTE]

Im not sure what exactly you're trying to say in the above comment.

I stated that offsets are allowable with the agreement of revenue, you say that your company does it with agreement from revenue. whats the difference?

i clarified my paye/prsi statement with an afaik caveat, you state that your company gets this offset and thats fine by me.

not sure where the i should be in ff comment comes in to it.

Mrs OBumble · 01-03-2011 1:02am

The OP has got his/her advice.

Thread is now getting spatty, so being closed, Move it to PM if you want to continue the discussion.

That said ... I would love to hear the outcome. So, OP, when/if you get it resolved, PM me and I'll open it up for your good/bad news story. Fingers crossed it's good.

Employer won't pay redundancy

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