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Nicolas Roche - 2014 season

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    #92
    ZiabR
    Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR


    lennymc wrote: »
    did he really have the support at ag2r. Remember Gadret when Roche punctured? ag2r were (imho) not the best team for him and I was happy to see him out of there.

    Agree with this, I think Trek would be the better fit of the teams that are showing interest. Sky could go either way, although with Wiggins getting more and more annoyed with Road Racing due to politics, he may leave the sport soon leaving Roche with the possibility of running a grand tour as leader.


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    #93
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Does this mean I'm going to have to start liking the Skybots? Love the way Garmin and Tinkoff can amend their tactics but Sky seem unable/unwill to do so to suit the race or what is happening during a race.

    You have to have the riders, and in this tour Sky didn't.


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    #94
    lennymc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,458 ✭✭✭lennymc


    Inquitus wrote: »
    You have to have the riders, and in this tour Sky didn't.

    or they did and they chose not to bring them :)


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    #95
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Thinkoff Just posted a picture letting people know new contracts would be announced soon. Roche was there.


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    #96
    laraghrider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 663 ✭✭✭laraghrider


    Well here is my opinion on Nico. I don't think he is a leader and I base that on his ability to come near a GT win. He is a super domestique true and true. He will and can work his socks off for other leaders and then fall away. So how would a move away from Saxo work out?

    Trek: Gamble. Rebuilding job and we have no idea how this team is going to turn out. If he goes there he would likely be sub lead for Schlek which would give him a crack at the Vuelta or Giro. Could work well for him although he'd have to fight for tour lead with Zubeldia albeit an aging Zubeldia.

    Sky: DB is not stupid. He is after Nico as a support to plan B. Another foil for Froome and Porte should Sky have to turn to plan B. This year in the tour I think they really missed EBH and I think they are looking to have a second edition of him in the ranks in the form of Nico. Sky will be another Saxo job for him.

    I AM: Unknown. They are minted and Nico could be brought in to replace an aging Sylvan Chavenel. Again though I think they could get better.

    For me his problem is this. He doesn't have the raw power or racing mind set to take it to the classics. He can be good leader in shorter stage races where the Cat 1 and HC climbs are not really a feature. Throw in a HC climb and he just doesn't have the ability of the other top guys. When it comes to GT's he just can't hold the wheels day in day out in order to be a contender for a podium let alone a win. So why would someone like Trek, Sky and or IAM pay a lot of money for him if he can't any of those? To be a number 2 or 3 of course!


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    #97
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    godtabh wrote: »
    Thinkoff Just posted a picture letting people know new contracts would be announced soon. Roche was there.

    What's that Nico, you're thinking of leaving? Well, what if I just move this decimal point here and put another zero there? Oh, you're ok now are you? There's a good boy. Now go and do as the Spanish/Polish/Czech rider tells you.


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    #98
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Tinkoff

    A lot of fans dont want to see roche go (ok a couple)


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    #99
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Ah no..... Now I'm going to have to hate Nico.... In protest I'll have to stop reading his articles in the indo and unfriend him on twitter.


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    #100
    Pudsy33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,732 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    Roche will know what's best for himself hopefully. Being 2nd or 3rd wheel at sky could be better then being a leader at a weaker team. That said, I'd absolutely love to see him lead IAM or Trek into a grand tour.


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    #101
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,293 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    lennymc wrote: »
    did he really have the support at ag2r. Remember Gadret when Roche punctured? ag2r were (imho) not the best team for him and I was happy to see him out of there.
    It could probably be argued that the two AG2R riders in the top 10 this year didn't really work that well together. It worked out for them in the end, but the lack of a clear leader out of Bardet and Peraud could've blown up for them.

    Regarding Nico, he's at the choice that all riders of his ilk get to - money or personal (GT) ambition.


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    #102
    GetWithIt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭GetWithIt


    The annual, post Tour, Nico bashing. Roll on La Vuelta.


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    #103
    Pudsy33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,732 ✭✭✭✭Pudsy33


    GetWithIt wrote: »
    The annual, post Tour, Nico bashing. Roll on La Vuelta.

    To be fair, he's not receiving much of a bashing. He had a strong tour, doing Trojan work for Contador and Majka. I think people, rightly or wrongly, want to see him achieve what they believe him to be capable of.


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    #104
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,293 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Nico bashing? That's not how I'm really reading the thread. He had a great tour and great couple of seasons with Tinkoff-Saxo/ Riis in the role(s) he was asked to play, as can be seen by the number of options he has now. He just has decisions on how he goes forward from here - either are perfectly valid.


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    #105
    highbury1913
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭highbury1913


    I wasn't particularly happy to see Nico go to Saxo in the first place but there's one thing you can't take away from Riis, is that he's a very demanding DS. The two years riding under him will have done his progress no harm at all and it will be beneficial for the future. Neverthless, time for pastures new and I think the signs were there for him to leave when he expressed his unhappiness that Contador was doing the Vuelta this year. At the time, he wasn't nailed on for the Giro but he consistently said the Vuelta is his favourite race and one he loves to target. Majka's continual upward development will hinder his chances even more. I was reading today that Navarro could be returning to Saxo so a change of air for his own needs is about right at this stage. The move has worked out to some degree. Take the Vuelta stage win, Nico said that Riis was very demanding of him that day and said he had to win as the parcours was very much suited to his characteristics. I don't think that would have happened at AG2R and the same can be said for his Route du Sud win this year. Look at the World's when Riis pushed him to ride the TTs in 2013 to improve in this discipline and Riis was in the Irish team car(again not too happy with that), it's not something we would have seen had he stayed at AG2R.

    I'm not so sure Sky is the best move for him. Froome and Porte are obviously the main leaders but Kennaugh complained the other day about a lack of opportunities for himself and others in the team. I can see Kennaugh getting a more prominent role and Sergio Henao is back in the equation. Brailsford has also expressed his interest in Warren Barguil. Sebastian Henao is a super talent as we seen in the Giro this year. I think Nico would be well advised to stay clear of Sky. I'm not surprised to hear they want to sign him as Fran Millar said just before they signed Deignan, that they very much wanted to sign Irish riders in the future.

    Trek would be the best move for him. Andy is finished and there's isn't too long left in Zubeldia as a rider and I think he can get more opportunities as a result. That might be his option.


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    #106
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    I think Sky tried to sign him already before he join Saxo. He has improved over the last 2 years but I think he can improve a lot more. I've consistently said his problem is the small mistakes he makes. Sky could be a good team to go to for the marginal gains. People may love to hate them but I think it would be a good time to ride for.


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    #107
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    highbury1913 wrote: »
    I wasn't particularly happy to see Nico go to Saxo in the first place but there's one thing you can't take away from Riis, is that he's a very demanding DS. The two years riding under him will have done his progress no harm at all and it will be beneficial for the future. Neverthless, time for pastures new and I think the signs were there for him to leave when he expressed his unhappiness that Contador was doing the Vuelta this year. At the time, he wasn't nailed on for the Giro but he consistently said the Vuelta is his favourite race and one he loves to target. Majka's continual upward development will hinder his chances even more. I was reading today that Navarro could be returning to Saxo so a change of air for his own needs is about right at this stage. The move has worked out to some degree. Take the Vuelta stage win, Nico said that Riis was very demanding of him that day and said he had to win as the parcours was very much suited to his characteristics. I don't think that would have happened at AG2R and the same can be said for his Route du Sud win this year. Look at the World's when Riis pushed him to ride the TTs in 2013 to improve in this discipline and Riis was in the Irish team car(again not too happy with that), it's not something we would have seen had he stayed at AG2R.

    I'm not so sure Sky is the best move for him. Froome and Porte are obviously the main leaders but Kennaugh complained the other day about a lack of opportunities for himself and others in the team. I can see Kennaugh getting a more prominent role and Sergio Henao is back in the equation. Brailsford has also expressed his interest in Warren Barguil. Sebastian Henao is a super talent as we seen in the Giro this year. I think Nico would be well advised to stay clear of Sky. I'm not surprised to hear they want to sign him as Fran Millar said just before they signed Deignan, that they very much wanted to sign Irish riders in the future.

    Trek would be the best move for him. Andy is finished and there's isn't too long left in Zubeldia as a rider and I think he can get more opportunities as a result. That might be his option.

    Good post. One thing though I disagree with, which is a very minor part of your post, is the issue over Riis in the Irish team car. If Riis is considered such an amoral/immoral element, well presumably one wouldn't want Roche in the team in the Irish first place because of his riding on Riis's team. If otoh Roche being on the Irish team is fine, then this can only imply that association with Riis isn't by implication damning at all, that their working relationship is fine, and so this thing about him being in the car is choosing to reduce complexity of life to self-gratifyingly simple Good v Bad scenarios.

    So, repeating myself, If Riis is that bad that his mere presence for an hour in an Irish team car is sullying, why would you care about Roche in the first place when he's been riding for his team for 2 years? Also, imagine Roche asking the Irish set-up can Riis sit in the car for the TT, how can they say no without it being a disaster is terms of man-management of their rider. "No, we can't have Riis because association with him is so damning." . . .


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    #108
    highbury1913
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭highbury1913


    godtabh wrote: »
    I think Sky tried to sign him already before he join Saxo. He has improved over the last 2 years but I think he can improve a lot more. I've consistently said his problem is the small mistakes he makes. Sky could be a good team to go to for the marginal gains. People may love to hate them but I think it would be a good time to ride for.

    Sky aren't great tactically, Sean Yates said that himself and Portal isn't the great DS that people might think he is. He just had clearly the strongest rider in Froome by a country mile in 2013.

    I keep hearing about marginal gains, but how many riders since the team's inception has this affected, Wiggins(although his big transformation was at Garmin), Rogers is still showing his Sky form for Saxo today, so that really leaves Porte and Froome who have improved significantly under their watch. Where's marginal gains for Boasen Hagen who came with huge hype upon his arrival?

    That's the thing about this, not a great deal of riders have improved significantly on their watch. I would even say Thomas with his talent is capable of doing a lot better.


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    #109
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    godtabh wrote: »
    I think Sky tried to sign him already before he join Saxo. He has improved over the last 2 years but I think he can improve a lot more. I've consistently said his problem is the small mistakes he makes. Sky could be a good team to go to for the marginal gains. People may love to hate them but I think it would be a good time to ride for.


    Though to me it's his reading of a race - not considered Sky's strong point either - that seems more an issue than marginal gains. I'd say it's that misreading surely cost Roche a stage win in the Giro when he looked the strongest rider in a breakaway but attacked unnecessarily too early, rather than trusting to beat them on the closing climb.


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    #110
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Roche's TTing has improved over the last 2 years and that was down to Riis pushing him. When he followed him the car Roche was more focused and the mistakes were cut out. Thats where I believe the marginal gains could be significant. The fact he now has his own TT bike is the benefits of being with a team like Saxo/Sky.

    Even his diet has improved. Gone are the days of plain pasta and ketchup.


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    #111
    highbury1913
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭highbury1913


    pelevin wrote: »
    Good post. One thing though, which is a very minor part of your post, I disagree with his the issue over Riis on the Irish team car. If Riis is considered such an amoral/immoral element, well presumably one wouldn't want Roche in the team in the first place because of his riding on Riis's team. If otoh this isn't a black & white matter & Roche being on the Irish team is fine, then this can only show that association with Riis isn't by implication damning at all, and so this thing about him being in the car is choosing to reduce complexity of life to self-gratifyingly simple Good v Bad scenarios.

    If Riis is that bad that his mere presence for an hour in an Irish team car is sullying, why would you care about Roche in the first place when he's been riding for his team for 2 years?

    My criticism is Cycling Ireland for allowing him in there in the first place. From an ethical sporting context, it should be a clear point in not allowing Riis in the car and the idea should have been shot down immediately when Riis first tried to persuade them on it.

    I wasn't happy with Nico when he went there initially and still am not today. I said that first day.

    In a racing context, it can't be denied that Riis with all his faults from a doping perspective is still a very good tactically demanding DS.


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    #112
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    godtabh wrote: »
    Roche's TTing has improved over the last 2 years and that was down to Riis pushing him. When he followed him the car Roche was more focused and the mistakes were cut out. Thats where I believe the marginal gains could be significant. The fact he now has his own TT bike is the benefits of being with a team like Saxo/Sky.

    Even his diet has improved. Gone are the days of plain pasta and ketchup.

    Sorry, I thought you were making a case of gaining from Sky in that 'marginal gains' sense over being with Saxo, rather than AG2R & the like.


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    #113
    pelevin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭pelevin


    highbury1913 wrote: »
    My criticism is Cycling Ireland for allowing him in there in the first place. From an ethical sporting context, it should be a clear point in not allowing Riis in the car and the idea should have been shot down immediately when Riis first tried to persuade them on it.

    I wasn't happy with Nico when he went there initially and still am not today. I said that first day.

    In a racing context, it can't be denied that Riis with all his faults from a doping perspective is still a very good tactically demanding DS.

    If it was a clear ethical wrong working with Riis, then my point surely already made stands - why would you want Roche there on the Irish team unless it isn't a clear ethical wrong.


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    #114
    ZiabR
    Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR


    highbury1913 wrote: »
    In a racing context, it can't be denied that Riis with all his faults from a doping perspective is still a very good tactically demanding DS.

    All this talk around Riis and his doping is getting very very boring. Forget about his doping, it does not affect how good he is at his current job. If "Rough Rider" was good for anything the other night, it was to show just how many people in cycling were doping (not that we did not already know), the only reason you keep going on about it was because Riis was caught and forced to confess. If all of the other dopers were suddenly to come out and confess, your view of Riis may change fairly fast.

    Riis does seem to get improvements out of riders. Roche improved under Saxo, you cannot deny that. Roche is now decent when it comes to TT and I think his overall fitness has improved too.


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    #115
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    pelevin wrote: »
    If it was a clear ethical wrong working with Riis, then my point surely already made stands - why would you want Roche there on the Irish team unless it isn't a clear ethical wrong.

    No offence to highbury1913 but he appears to want the cake and eat it


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    #116
    highbury1913
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭highbury1913


    pelevin wrote: »
    If it was a clear ethical wrong working with Riis, then my point surely already made stands - why would you want Roche there on the Irish team unless it isn't a clear ethical wrong.

    Has Roche a known doping past?

    Do you think Sky with their newly enforced ZTP since the end of 2012 would want him if there was one?

    Riis doped as rider and admitted it and we have stories from Hamilton and Rasmussen that paint him in extremely in poor light.

    Bassons rode for Festina. Should we pour the sins of that team on to him as a result?

    Moncoutie likewise with Cofidis and their dodgy past.

    Pinotti rode for Saunier Duval and rode for BMC with Ochowicz, Andy Rihs and Lelangue involved. He's even now involved in their managment at BMC but many regard him as a clean rider.


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    #117
    highbury1913
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭highbury1913


    logik wrote: »
    All this talk around Riis and his doping is getting very very boring. Forget about his doping, it does not affect how good he is at his current job. If "Rough Rider" was good for anything the other night, it was to show just how many people in cycling were doping (not that we did not already know), the only reason you keep going on about it was because Riis was caught and forced to confess. If all of the other dopers were suddenly to come out and confess, your view of Riis may change fairly fast.

    Riis does seem to get improvements out of riders. Roche improved under Saxo, you cannot deny that. Roche is now decent when it comes to TT and I think his overall fitness has improved too.

    The reason why people go on about Riis is what he has done in his role as a manager of team.

    To say we should just forget about his past after Hamilton's and Rasmussen's comments is absurd when he's still in that role today.


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    #118
    ZiabR
    Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR


    highbury1913 wrote: »
    The reason why people go on about Riis is what he has done in his role as a manager of team.

    To say we should just forget about his past after Hamilton's and Rasmussen's comments is absurd when he's still in that role today.

    I am not saying to forget about his past but we need to stop going on about it... Yes he doped but so did 90% of riders in his era. Some of them were even more deceitful than the likes of Riis.


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    #119
    highbury1913
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭highbury1913


    godtabh wrote: »
    No offence to highbury1913 but he appears to want the cake and eat it

    The same reply to yourself as what I said about Bassons, Moncoutie and Pinotti.


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    #120
    highbury1913
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭highbury1913


    logik wrote: »
    I am not saying to forget about his past but we need to stop going on about it... Yes he doped but so did 90% of riders in his era. Some of them were even more deceitful than the likes of Riis.

    I agree there is a wider issue in discussing riders that were doping in that era when it was so widespread. The Dutch report into the EPO era showed this when a similarly percentage to the one you mentioned was reported among Dutch riders in that period. I don't deny that.

    Lemond comes from that thinking too and attacks the issue in general where it's more directed at the UCI, enablers, team managers and doctors that promoted and enforced this culture.

    Riis falls into this category.


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    #121
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,204 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    highbury1913 wrote: »
    The same reply to yourself as what I said about Bassons, Moncoutie and Pinotti.

    This thread is about Roche


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